What Is Happening Not On Automatic?

Ayanma found me through email. It was only a tiny nudge that she needed. Love how nice and smooth it went. 

Ayanma:
Hi Ilona,
I'll be interested to discuss and go further with you whenever you have some availability.
I have first seen clearly that there is no I  ... and that the "I " is just a thought ... that was quite a long time ago...
It was amazing... I could not believe how ridiculous it was... I had spent so much time and energy searching...

But somehow the contraction came back... and in the same time, the energy for the search disappeared, at least
it is much less, I do sense some way of escaping not to see... like even now for writing...
and that is mainly why I feel this discussion can help... in not escaping...

A big thank you for what you do.
Love,

Ilona:
Hi Ayanma

Thank you for email.

Hm, so you say that you have seen that I is a thought, that there is no such entity that drives the body.

Then contraction comes.
Is it not on automatic? Is it happening to you? Is it wrong in any way?

Ayanma:
Hi Ilona,

Thank you so much for such a quick answer.

Well yes I guess I am surprised that having seen so well how the "I" is nothing, just a made-up idea,
I can still believe in an "I", do as if... until I catch myself in it...
It was very clear at first, then at some point, the "I" thought came back.

The expectation is to live from the perspective of no I , no coming back to a sense of I
the contraction comes back to no one and it does not matter, thanks for the question,
when this is seen, it is fine, but it is not always seen !!

The escaping is just a way to avoid serious looking or inquiry right at the moment when it is needed...
as if there was some protection needed...
In looking at "what is doing escaping" it feels like a protection mechanism of the I thought,
a kind of game to perpetuate a cloud or a fog not to see the emptiness...
but right now speaking about it, it seems absurd, and not present...

yet when I saw clearly the nothingness of this small I, there was also a sense of complete emptiness, which really surprised me
and also frightened me, I guess, I say I guess because somehow I did not have the words...

Thank you,
Love,


Ilona:
Sorry for delay this time, I get a lot of messages and I missed to answer yours..

 "Well yes I guess I am surprised that having seen so well how the "I" is nothing, just a made-up idea,
 I can still believe in an "I", do as if... until I catch myself in it...
 It was very clear at first, then at some point, the "I" thought came back"

Examine this closer- I still believe in 'i'

Can you really believe that there is this entity that controls and manages life?
Cause if you do- you haven't seen it clearly enough.  Once you see it, it can not be lost, ever.  It's same way like you can never believe in Santa/ tooth fairy or whatever magic character you did as a child.

It's one way realisation.

So check within with full and complete honesty, can you believe that I?

"The expectation is to live from the perspective of no I , no coming back to a sense of I"

What exactly is the sense of I? Is that sense still here if it's not labelled? Check it.

"the contraction comes back to no one and it does not matter, thanks for the question,
 when this is seen, it is fine, but it is not always seen !!"

Ok, when you watch a movie that is very interesting, at some places you get sucked in the story and experience the film fully. Seems like background fades away and you are in it, feeling emotions and identifying with characters.
Then you zoom out of the movie and watch it knowing that it's the movie, not real life.

Same here- sometimes the story is so vivid and it's taken for real, it's part of the fun. Is there anything wrong with that? Still, no matter what, you know, it's a story, when you check.

 "The escaping is just a way to avoid serious looking or inquiry right at the moment when it is needed...
as if there was some protection needed..."

Again, what is it that is doing escaping? What is it that is dooing the looking?
What is it that controls attention and focus.  Is it not on automatic?


"In looking at "what is doing escaping" it feels like a protection mechanism of the I thought,
 a kind of game to perpetuate a cloud or a fog not to see the emptiness...
 but right now speaking about it, it seems absurd, and not present..."

Ha, yes.


''yet when I saw clearly the nothingness of this small I, there was also a sense of complete emptiness, which really surprised me and also frightened me, I guess, I say I guess because somehow I did not have the words..."


Is there a big I?
What is the I that is used in your writing refer to?
Much love to you.

Ayanma:
Hi Ilona,
Thank you so much for your answer and the big hug which I appreciate and give back!
So nice to be able to speak about this ... it is such help !!

You said
>> Once you see it, it can not be lost, ever.

And that is why I am here with you, because it is not exactly what has been happening here...
Of course it is what seemed obvious at first, how can you believe in Santa Claus when you see it is a lie...
but are there not layers... and the sight gets more or less clear... or habits and you believe into words again or the mainstream habit ??
When you ask if I still believe in this entity... yes until I stop and check !!

A long time ago, I was in India and did the self inquiry for the first time, it immediately was seen that there was no one and no more question
in answer to who am I? just a vast beautiful warm space ... but I had no words for it, no understanding, and the guru there said only :" that is it " which did not help at all... From then on, I found myself even more cut into two worlds : the one of roles, social games, interaction with people and home alone ... and this separation was painful...
Same type of things in India also as everyday after discourses-satsang, where somehow I was gone ... and the need to contract back to the character I thought I was to function in the world (to do what I was supposed to do) and every day this shrinking was hell..

Much later it was seen that there was no need to shrink back to this so called character... which was fiction, but I did not know then

The reason I tell you those two points, is that it feels quite amazing that in both cases, the belief in I still went on...
I heard of people for whom one of those was enough to fully wake up.
So wondering what are the sticky points which keep this apparent I alive...

also what you said about the movie example is troubling me :
> Same here- sometimes the story is so vivid and it's taken for real, it's part of the fun. Is there anything wrong with that? Still, no matter what, you know, it's a story, when you check.

As it just happens that there is no pleasure here to go and see movies, as it is felt as very unpleasant to get identified to these roles...
and more or less in general there is always an awareness of playing roles, since I remember in childhood, with a big interrogation then as to how will I do to believe...
Yet, it feels as if it is forgotten sometimes that it is a role...

No there is no big I, when I was speaking of small I, it was just because it was seen as a small detail in the plain view, and as I say this now the plain view, the wide space is so intimate that it can easily be given a label : sense of I when it has in fact nothing to do with this...

That seems to be one key: seeing now is happening, this intimate taste is labelled with a sense of I...
> What exactly is the sense of I? Is that sense still here if it's not labelled? Check it.

not labelled, it is not here,  it never was seen before this link between "intimacy" and the sense of I and again this intimacy is a label which stops the present happening...

Thank you, it feels easy to look when writing to you,
I'll keep watching in waiting for your feedback,

Much love


Ilona:
Thank you for answer.

The experiences that you had of spaciousness were states. No state is permanent.  We are not looking for another state. We want to see what is here, constant, regardless of ever changing states.

Now look directly at this question and tell me what comes up-


What is happening not on automatic?
What requires an effort?

Really look at it in everyday situations.

Just this little step for now.

Sending love.

Ayanma:
Thank you,

> What is happening not on automatic?
> What requires an effort?


nothing... when looking... absolutely nothing and it is amazing... as the first movement is an I wanting to claim...
but also a question : who looks, whom you ask the question to, the "so familiar taste" belongs to whom...

I look since yesterday and turn around this, not really much to add right now...

Thanks,
Love,

Ilona:
Nice!

How does it feel to see this?
How does it show in your everyday experience?

Is there any doubt at all?



Much love!

Ayanma:
It feels quiet and spacious!
a relief... the questions cuts short any story...
so it feels lighter and quiet empty, as if the balloon was emptying itself...
no need to "force", to "do", to "look for"...  if any of this comes, it is seen as an idea appearing... no more,
so much more present to whatever it happening, like looking at what is happening without concern... yet with
interest... if this is the word...

all this is very "light", I do have to come back to the questions... but definitely there is a liberation's taste

Thanks so much,
I wait to hear from you,
Love,

Ilona:
How is it feeling today?

Ayanma;
Not sure... a bit speechless... and enjoying the absence of pressure...
It was so quick that mind wonders... is this real... it was seen already and then .... but not loud enough to really disturb...
who cares ?

Ilona:
Are you on Facebook? If so, we have an aftercare group where everyone who seen through illusion can share what comes after.  It is very helpful when feelings of stuckness come up. I'd love to invite you there.

Ayanma:
Yes I am on Facebook, thank you!


1) Is there a 'me', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever? 

No no me, pure fabrication, a so clever and sticky one!! Of course, there never was.

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works

A beautiful game of Consciousness... playing diversity more and more into all forms... so we believe we are separate individuals having a life to live, it is so serious and dramatic, we believe we are deciding, controlling... when it is just an appearance... it starts as soon as the child accepts his name and what he is told : you and I then starts, separation: me and the world, it will be reinforced by education and so on... me, mine how the young child repeats it and enjoys it... until it becomes suffering and search...

3)  How would you describe it to somebody who has never heard about this illusion but is curious about it.  

The metaphor of the ocean and the waves is usually working well to give a picture of the situation.

4)  What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

The last and first question in fact you asked: "What is happening not on automatic? "
this is pure jewel, it does really cut short all possible story.

5) what is the I that you are referring to? 

Consciousness seeing through these eyes.

Gratitude and wonder !!

Ilona:
Great answers, but there is one more clarification needed-

Consciousness is seeing through these eyes.
Can you expand on that please.

Is consciousness I? Does I exist in the form of consciousness? What is word I referring to?

Write what it's seen here.
Much love.

Ayanma:
Thanks,

no Consciousness is not I, it feels like a blank wide opened seeing from behind, it is impersonal or the seeing itself...

there is the use of I to refer to the apparent form, apparent character, but it is just a label, there is no "me" behind it.

Does that answer the question??

Love,

Ilona:
Yes! Great :))

Is it ok to put our conversation in my blog, so other guides can read and confirm? Also it may be helpful for someone else who is still looking.

I can use whatever name you like.
Much love


Ayanma:
Yes, of course you can use it, take a name you like.
Thank you so much :))

LU London Meeting

I'm really pleased to announce that I'm organizing first live meeting.

Saturday, 12th of May 2012, 

12:00- 4:00pm at 

Friends Meeting House in Hampstead, London

120 Heath Street
Hampstead
London NW3 1DR 

Public Transport: Hampstead Tube Station (Northern line, Edgware branch).
Buses 210 or 268 to Whitestone Road.
Parking: Along the roads. Parking spaces are scarce in Hampstead but resident's parking does not apply on Sundays.

map

If you have participated in many satsangs and retreats and still think that there is something missing, here is your chance to see it once and for all- there is no self. With seeing that in your own experience, the search for I drops and you are free to explore what life is really about. By using Direct Pointing Method developed together with other members at Liberation Unleashed, I will help you see by pointing where to look. We won't be talking about it, we are going to question all that is in the way of this simple, yet profound truth.

If you are ready, then come to this meeting and see what all Buddhas are talking about.

Here is an opportunity to meet other friends from Liberation Unleashed. If you have seen through illusion of separate self or not, everyone is invited.

Looking forward to it. :)

Tammy: When Curiosity Crept In The Journey Has Started..

I met Tammy in my tattoo chair. First time she came in and got a branch of orchids. Soon after she wanted it to grow. Happens a lot, tattoos tend to expand over body over time as they start shrinking in the mind. First it looks big, then it starts looking smaller and smaller...

We met again for the second session and made them flowers grow. It took a while so we talked and i mentioned what i do besides tattooing and all the LU stuff. Tammy got curious. She has never heard about no self before, she has never been a seeker and never read anything 'spiritual'. Yet curiosity got her. And little by little we started talking about what is really going on here.

The realisation came as Tammy investigated the question of control, and if she is really in control of what happens. once she saw that, the rest was easy.

We met once more for another extension of tattoo and the piece is complete. Same as Tammy's journey through the gateless gate. You know, the one that does not exist.

Here are the Final 5 questions that we give to all who cross, and here are Tammy's answers. And thank you Tammy for the orchids that sit on the window in my studio. :)


Tammy:
Is there a 'me', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever? 

There is no i / me controlling anything! Not controlling thoughts, not controlling seeing, not controlling hearing and not controlling decisions. In fact, no I / me controlling anything!

Thoughts come and go on their own and cant be stopped. So no i/me controlling thoughts either…hmmm, crazy huh!!

No, there was never a me, not ever because there is no me/i.

Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works.

Not totally sure when exactly the illusion starts, but society and parents give baby/child this identity and this belief that 'i' is in control of thoughts, decisions, hearing, seeing….life etc 

By living by this belief, when things go right in the individuals life, the individual thinks that this success is down to ‘me’ this is when egos are created and self praise starts. Conversely, when things go wrong, the individual also thinks that this is down to them, thus creating suffering. Thoughts and feelings of inadequacy, failure, hopelessness and sadness take over the ‘me’ that has been created and create this mental torture. 

Suffering is created when the mind creates its own story to sensations felt in the body. In the illusion, this is put down to 'us' being sad/unhappy etc when really its just mind creating a fabricated story from a sensation in the body. Sensations in the body come and go, but when mind gets involved, these sensations can be intensified and lead to fictional stories being created. This mental torture is constantly trying to seek approval from both external sources and ‘self’ in order to sort of reinstate the ‘ego’ as a successful ‘me’.
By seeing and accepting that ‘me’ is not in control of anything and life is just happening without a controller, life becomes a lot more simple, more relaxed and this mental torture diminishes!
'We' are just characters acting out the role just as the script says – under no control of anyone!

How does it feel to see this?

A rollercoaster of emotions would best describe ‘seeing this’

At first is seems crazy, impossible….of course there has to me a me/i!!?? Then as questions start to get answered and seeing becomes clearer then comes the confusion! How can this be? It can't be? It is true! How can it be true? IT IS TRUE! 

Then comes some anger – where have these lies come from? How can it be allowed? Why didn’t mum / friends / society tell ‘me’ the truth?

Still not done… next came some more confusion, followed by a sort of concentration phase where things were looked at and questioned closely, people, animals, life etc

Then came relief, happiness, a sort of understanding and a moment of just being! Some smiling, a little giggle, some excitement and butterflies in tummy! Questions still come up, but get answered a lot quicker and without worry.

How would you describe it to somebody who has never heard about this illusion but is curious about it. 

‘I’ had entered into this with total naivety and curiosity. Unlike others, ‘I’ had not been consciously searching for years, So entered into the journey with no expectations at all, just total curiosity and an ‘open mind’ to question and look. Plus in life at the time of looking, was surrounded by like minded people, so was interested in experiencing something new and testing thoughts and understanding.

Once ‘I’ watched the documentary on decisions and saw that ‘me’/’I’ did not control decisions it provided the first piece of truth to which the rest of the journey was built upon. If decisions are made in the brain, up to 6 seconds before they become apparent/clear/acted upon, then ‘I’ am not actually in control of the decisions made like we grow up thinking/assuming. 

Next was thoughts – they just come and go without any controller. All this time assuming that ‘I’ was controlling thoughts when really they are just coming and going!! 

So, if ‘I’ is not controlling thoughts and decisions, then what is ‘I’ actually? ‘I’ does not exist… if unsure, try and touch ‘I’???!!!! Did you manage to touch it? Or did you touch the physical body of the character you are playing???

Seeing through the illusion is a real awakening, quite refreshing and brings about a feeling of contentment.

Once the truth is seen, there is less pressure, less worry about the future and generally a sunnier outlook!
By looking there is nothing to lose, but everything to gain!

What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

Journey started just talking with Ilona whilst having a tattoo done! Then the curiosity crept in and the journey had fully started!

Coming from a sports background where success and failure is put down to the individual or team of individuals, ‘I’ had always had this feeling of unfulfillment, as if I had never achieved my full potential as a player, a coach and life in general. Life was spent constantly searching for the next thing, fearing failure and always seeking approval from others. Certain situations caused feelings of adversity, not because of the actual situation, but because of worrying what others would think. Trying to impress and be the best, rather than concentrating on the task in the here and now.

Once things started to be seen and ‘I’ realised that ‘I’ am not actually in control of any of it, merely acting out the role that has been assigned and life is just perfect, things became a lot better! Situations that had before caused anxiety, came and went with a feeling of lightness and enjoyment. Focusing on the ball / task without worrying meant 100% of energy was put into the job in hand! No point stressing about what may/may not happen, just concentrate on the present! 

The final push came in a period of darkness, conflict, family drama and problems! After being wonderfully guided through this conflict by Ilona and the realisation that sensations in the body come and go, but when mind gets involved, these sensations can be intensified and lead to fictional stories being created! Everything suddenly became so simple!!!

Jasmine: Brush Can Not Own Creation Of the Painting

Jasmine:

Hello,

My friend Marty sent me a link to you.

I've felt a strong resonance to inquiry since my early 20's and have used self-inquiry for some time.

Everything in my life is about self-realization and i am happy to be here to have this opportunity to explore this with you at this time.

Ilona:

Hi Jasmine, welcome to the forum.:)

What brings you here? What expectations do you have about this process?

Can you make a list of what you want seeing the truth to be like and what you don't. 

What it should be and what it shouldn't. 

Just write it all out. 

Much love.

Jasmine:

Hi Ilona, I am here... found my thread : )

list of what I want seeing the truth to be like:

serenity

stillness

clarity

a constant state of love

presence

happiness

eternal communion with the beloved

being cared for nurtured

being safe

to know myself... to know all other

peace

what I don't want seeing the truth to be like:

aloneness

despair

chaos

separation

confusion

cruelty

pain

isolation

no protection

no one to care for me

eternal suffering

about my expectations... not really sure... i think i am just open to see what unfolds...

thank you!

Ilona:

hi Jasmine, 

thank you for the answer. 

seeing the truth does not change anything, it's simply seeing this as it is. It does not give an eternal peace and happiness, this is just a magical thinking of happy ever after. It allows one to see life directly and experience freedom in sadness and aloness without having to name it bad or wrong. 

If you grew up with Santa story, or some other magical story, do you remember how it was to realize the truth that there is no magical characters in real life? that was seeing through illusion that parents made you believe. (or not, but you can imagine that as this is pretty common- letting children believing in magic).

So yes, there is this magical I/ me that can not be found, but people are still believing in it. So seeing the truth is just a drop of that belief. Life is going on as it always did, and no change gonna happen, other than in the way it's perceived. 

So take another look at expectations and write it all out, no matter how magical they are, just so you can inspect it closely and we can leave them here before taking a fresh look. 

much love.

Jasmine:

Thank you... this is very helpful what you wrote...

my expectations:

i expect to wake-up

to end suffering in my life

to never suffer again

to have everything go my way from now on

to be at peace

to find love

to be happy at last and that that be forever

to never be alone again

to get out of this chaos

to feel love for everyone and everything and loved by everyone and everything

to not be tortured by my thoughts again

to be unified in a romantic relationship :) haha

Ilona:

This is a beautiful an honest list of expectations. Thank you, but we are gonna leave all them to rest here for a while and once you come back to them later you will tell what are true and what are magical thinking. 

One thing that you wrote is spot on- no more torture by thoughts. You will see that there is no thinker, no I that thinks thoughts and does action and thoughts are no longer a problem. 

Let's start by examining thought itself. Where does it come from?

Are you thinking thoughts? Can you shut them down at will for like 10 min?

If you can not do that, what does it mean? Is I thought anymore special than other thoughts? 

Just take a close look and write what you find. Dig deep.

Jasmine:

This is what i'm noticing... the thoughts just appear out of nowhere... sometimes thoughts appear not in words but rather images (of people or 'future' actions i will take, or things i will say for example). These images are also like thoughts and they also appear out of nowhere...

so in that, i can see that "I" am not actually the thinker of the thought...

when i try to shut the thoughts down for 10 minutes... i can't... thoughts or images appear out of the blue again... if i concentrate really hard, i focus on "don't think for 10 minutes" for example, and i repeat this sentence like a mantra for 10 minutes - then it would seem that i am in control of stopping thought... but actually what happens is that "I" still can't do it... suddenly more images or thoughts appear during those 10 minutes, and it's an effort to bring the mind back to the no thinking...

So, am I in control of thinking? No

Actions are the same... they seem to just happen...

Earlier in the kitchen i got a glimpse of what that means - it's like it's all just a happening...

but then the "I" thought comes back... Like I am the one doing this or that... or I WANT this or that... even I am trying to wake up and i can't...

I'm also confused... i see the thoughts appear, but then i see I thought fight with those thoughts... is there an I (self) fighting back with I (thoughts or God that is just appearing) ??

If there is no I-self... why am i so tortured?

Ilona:

Very good work jasmine. Going right for it. 

If ther is no I-self, but there is a belief in I-self then you get that torture. 

Good news is, there is no I-self, and never was, there is no one to be tortured. 

What is that I that suffers? 

Can it be located? 

Suffering arises from the core belief that there is sufferer here to which suffering happens. 

Check if it's true. What comes up when I say, there is no sufferer at all, just raw sensations + story + coments that go on by themselves on automatic. 

Keep digging.

Jasmine:

this is what i'm discovering:

i noticed i had the thought to take a shower

and i thought i will inquire into the questions you asked while in the shower

then while showering, there is no-one there... just showering happening... washing hair, turning on more hot water, etc.

but i am not there to remember this is what is going on...

then suddenly the thought: "I didn't remember to inquire..." and "I will always be in this perpetual suffering..."

That I thought seems to be identified to a body... this body

so the I that suffers is linked to this body

I believe I am the body

... of course i have no proof that i am the body other than the I thought that appears that I exist at all... but in that moment IT does appear AND I AM THE I... ???!!!??

also, it seems that when something happens to this body - I suffer

I also seem to be able to control the direction this body goes in, and what it does... although only when "I" exist... (or i remember to remember that i exist)

it's weird

... who is the one that believes the "I"? (the I thought that arises)

isn't the one that believes the I (the believer) a separate self? or is believing just an involuntary happening?

"I" am taking a shower... in that moment I believe that i exist:

I am the body

I am doing something

I exist in time and space

"I" - the thought - is my identity

... I see that I is just a thought... but i still believe it is me... it is attached to this moment, this body, this doing...

"I" cannot not believe i am not this - that would be another thought trying to no believe I...

Ilona:

so the I that suffers is linked to this body

I believe I am the body

Interesting. I is linked to the body, how?

Which part of the body contains I? 

If body looses both legs and both arms, is there loss of I? 

Whith closed eyes, can you find a line between the body and what is outside the body? Where is I located? 

Please answer each question precisely as you can. 

Much love.

Jasmine:

I is linked to the body, how?

This life seems to revolve around this body. Since i am a child people address me, find me, in relationship to this body. If somebody hits this body, i feel the physical pain more than if they where to hit another, or a plant, or animal...

(although i am getting a glimpse that all pain is psychological not physical as i am writing this)

It also seems that thoughts arise, and i-this body has the control and power to move around and create a life for itself...

In other words, as thoughts arise they seem to be connected to this body, and as i-the body does things in the world, and meets people, talks... everything and everyone seems to answer back to this form... it gives me a sense of identity. Even as i am typing this there is a sense that it relates to me (although less so in this moment because i can't be located)

Also other people react to this body... other people confirm "I" (that i exist)

Which part of the body contains I? 

No part.

When i look to find which part i don't find one

If body looses both legs and both arms, is there loss of I? 

no

Whith closed eyes, can you find a line between the body and what is outside the body? Where is I located? 

this i've felt for a long time. it's not located neither inside or outside. It doesn't seem to be located in the body more than outside the body.

yet when I thoughts arise they locate to a (this) body

is that what needs to happen in order to exist?

Thoughts need to identify to something in order to 'have a life' / live themselves out?

what does that mean? that nothing becomes something? but is that something me? it doesn't seem that i exist other than a thought... but why do i experience continuity?

And why do they keep locating to the same body?

And if i am not the body then it doesn't really matter what happens to it right?

and why to i feel so much emotional pain when say, a lover leaves me?

i realize i'm all over the place... i am really wanting to look at things closely and not just on surface.

i haven't had an opportunity to inquire in this way before... thank you.

Ilona:

ok, so here is this body with brain and neurons. it is a biological machine, an alive organism. 

does it need a manager? 

does brain need instructions how to run the body?

can it be that brain has created an image, labelled it "I" and now everything is seen through "I lens". what is here if there is no label?

does life goes around a center? is i a center of experience? and when was I given to you?

keep digging. :)

Jasmine: 

does it need a manager? does brain need instructions how to run the body?

No, it functions on it's own

can it be that brain has created an image, labelled it "I" and now everything is seen through "I lens". 

i suppose it's possible.. 

what is here if there is no label?

just life

does life goes around a center? is i a centre of experience?

it would seem so that life goes around 'my' center

and when was I given to you?

i just remember as a child people looking at me, this body, and giving me a name and identity, and then me responding to that...

i feel a little stuck

Ilona:

It's ok to feel a bit stuck, let's push forwards. 

If there are no labels and there is just life, what happens to 'my' life? Does life belong to a me? Can you sense in any way ownership of life? 

Is there a centre if it's not labelled 'my centre?' 

With closed eyes, find a centre, where is it? can you find a line that divides here from there?

If you hear a distant sound, is it heard inside the body or where it happens? 

If you were to take a finger and point to 'my center' where would the finger end up pointing? 

Sending love.

Jasmine:

ok... thank you... i'll continue here... through the stuck-ness

if there are no labels "my life" becomes part of the whole, it doesn't belong to me... it's just like nature happening...

and there is no center, everything is center...

and i can't really find a separation between here and there...

if i hear a sound i see an image and that image is showing me where the sound is coming from or what it is...

but i suppose the sound is heard from "me" ?

with the finger exercise... the finger still mostly points to me

although my temptation is to point it to whatever is arising...

i'm not sure where my center is

although i still feel a sense of 'i' here from which everything happens to, is seen, etc.

thank you...

Ilona:

Very interesting about hearing. 

Listen to some music, just hear every note, every instrument with curiosity. Can direct experience of music be compared to description of music. Try to describe what was listened. What was it that heard the music? 

Is it me that hears ? is hearing happening and there is no hearer, but one experience of hearing? Is there a gap in sound being sounded and heard? 

Also take something that has strong fragrance, anything. Smell that for 30 seconds. After describe the smell for another 30 seconds. 

What mind does in both instances: smelling and describing, what are the processes running? 

Much love!

Jasmine:

Hi Ilona,

The direct experience of music is so different than the mind coming-in afterwards and trying to describe it... music is like ... an experience... and hard to describe...

when music is heard no-one hears it... it is more like one experience of hearing as you say...

and there is no gap - sound and hearing arise simultaneously... actually there is no separation between the two.

And what was it that heard the music? nothing heard the music is the most accurate way to put it. 

second best way to put it is that this moment heard the music - but that would imply time and there doesn't seem to be any.

The smell was...

pungent, sweet, warm, moist,spicy, acid, flower-full...

the process the mind is doing is remembering when it's describing... trying to describe an experience of oneness... it almost seems like the mind has to separate from the direct experience in order to process it and describe it... and then there is an i there that describes, before that mind process there is no i... just one moment or experience...

hmmm... and i may be very hard nut to crack : ) because as i continue here writing this to you... i still feel a sense of identity

love, jasmine

Ilona:

Great, thank you for answer. Yes, mind is only trying to describe direct experience, it's all just a story about life. 

Sense of identity? 

Where is it felt? How does it feel? Is it there I if it's not labeled, described by the mind? 

Can you find that sense of aliveness, being (verb) and see is it here if you don't think about it, is it here if it's labelled I? Is it personal? Where is the line between here and there?

Examine it the same way as you did with hearing and smelling. 

What do you find?

And, don't worry about being a hard nut. It's all down to your intention to see. And I sense it's set right :)

Jasmine:

Dear Ilona,

something shifted as i was inquiring into your questions this morning.

i can see that i am part of nature, of what is...

the mind just comes in just a few milliseconds after the direct experience of life and describes or narrates what has just happened and adds a whole interpretation to it... but that i is not me.

direct experience is not personal. 'this' (jasmine) just happens just like 'that' just happens...

as i looked in the mirror i couldn't quite believe anymore that that was I

it is just part of nature

it has preferences, it believes it wants this or likes that... it just does it's thing... just like everything else in life does it's thing... but it's certainly not i...

i am not my thoughts, i am not my mind, i am not my body, i am not my story... it's just a happening.

to be completely thorough i'm curious about the relationship between thought and body:

when i was looking in the mirror and watching nature (previously thought as me) and curious at what that was...

i said "move a finger"... and the finger moved...

if i say "bird stop singing" ... bird doesn't stop...

the i-thought can come in there and believe it has control and therefore is a self... and is separate because it doesn't have that control over the bird...

i'm sitting in that inquiry... it's like thought comes in and body moves

what and where is the command center?

thank you so much for your support <3

Ilona:

How about the brain being command centre together with neurons. 

If you look at animal, where is its comand centre? 

And before you think a thought about saying to your finger to move, the neurons have fired and this intention popped in, thought followed and finger moved. All on automatic. 

Take a look at free will and decision making. How does that work? 

I'm delighted to hear that nature has shown itself and you a crossing the gate nicely. :))))

Some time later 


Ilona:

How is it going, jasmine? Are you still here?

Sending love.

Jasmine:

Hi Ilona,

yes, i am here. I just was traveling : )

thank you for checking-in : ) so kind of you...

I have been sitting with your question...

mmm... it seems that there is no free will or decision making...

I mean 'this one' just moves and acts and speaks, when the command is fired or when the thought has popped into the brain and then it does things. But it is not in control of the thoughts that 'pop-in'... not even the one's that seem more voluntary like "I will go to New York" for example... those 'decision-making' thoughts are also not mine...

... this is so strange... and yet it seems accurate

I mean I really don't have control of anything... ?

I'm still sitting in this...

like is there co-creation process... ?

thank you <3

Ilona:

Great to see you back here. 

It's not that you don't have control over anything. 

There is no you to have control. When control happens it does not happen because you caused it. 

There is no actor that chooses the role to play or words to speak. All is one play that is playing out. 

Good question about co-creation. 

How much a brush in artists' hand co-creates a painting? 

Yes, there are strokes, there is particular way that paint is applied with particular brush, but can that brush own the creation of the painting? 

Investigate here and tell, what role does uniqueness play in co- creation of experience of life? 

Much love.

Jasmine:

hello sweetness : )

so much to report : )

I wanted to share with you that since that inquiry where i looked in the mirror and cannot any longer believe that that is me, life feels so different... i mean everything is the same just not the same...

there is no one to protect, or defend... this character is so free... it cannot be hurt... i understand what it means for the first time that that which was never born can never die... 

tomorrow is my birthday... i look forward to exploring what was born...

I wanted to share with you that i am much more free in everything i do and say. And that there is an experience of fearlessness present... meaning that i do not have to be anything... i can just follow direction and that's it.

I don't think that the brush can own the creation of the painting...

And about the role of uniqueness in the co-creation of experience of life... what i notice is all the different "brushes" (humans) all have their own unique ways... the thoughts they believe... and the things they do and like... and it brings such a beautiful palette or tone to the painting...

they are "choosing' the colors to paint with so to speak, but simultaneously they have no choice in what's been chosen...

right now i don't see how they can control their uniqueness - it is just done through them...

i suppose if the thought appears to someone that they can manifest a certain thing, i suppose they can do that through the laws of the universe...? but it doesn't have a cause... is that accurate?

i'm also understanding that there is no cause and effect... because there is no cause...

Ilona:

Dear jasmine, 

I'm delighted to hear that there is new found freedom and new seeing of life. This is great and it's only a beginning. :)

Here are some final questions that i'll ask you to answer in full and as you see. 

1) Is there a 'me', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever? 

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works.

3) How does it feel to see this?

4) How would you describe it to somebody who has never heard about this illusion. 

5) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look? 

Lots of love! And have a very happy birthday :))

Jasmine:

1) Is there a 'me', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever? 

There is no 'me'... there is no 'other'... the idea of me existed but that was never me

i see clearly but it is not "i" that sees

seeing just sees / happens

and actually there is no seeing at all - because there is no one to see

it's just one big explosive happening - and wow - all here, all at once, in no time

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works.

the illusion is a thought

a thought that 'i am somebody'

rather than be nothing (or everything) the thought 'i' arises and becomes somebody... 'this one'

'this one' exists as an idea

the idea is totally engrossed in itself - to uphold itself - everything becomes something, everything becomes separate

the idea 'i' sees, talks, moves, choses...

when the idea 'i' is present it cannot see that it doesn't exist at all

in order to exist, it (the idea) has to exist

without the idea, no one is here (only life - but there is no one to know that)

3) How does it feel to see this?

like nothing happened

it's just clear

i cannot any longer believe that i or you are here

it's not a state that can be lost - there is no i that ever was

it feels... natural... clear

'the one that lives' meets life fearlessly

it's just a wonder-filled gift that anything appears at all! - so intimate... lovely

'this one' has lost it's illusion of control - and so it just moves with much less self-talk because it understands that it's not here and therefore has no need to be anything, defend anything, control anything...

in actuality... take what you need from 'this' - i am service, if anything at all

just grateful for this nothing happening

nothing has changed except that everything has changed

life is just lived (nothing else is possible)

'this one that lives' has it's ways, likes, dislikes, it does it's thing... who knows what it will do next. One movement

4) How would you describe it to somebody who has never heard about this illusion. 

: ) haha

i'll give this a try... asking questions would be my way to describe the un-describable...

there is no self

never was

there is only life

arising or happening

you are not who you think you are (literally)

find out if you exist at all outside of thought... and what is left if you are not

you exist because there is this thought 'i' that appears... and then you believe it ('it' becomes something/somebody), and then it has a life - and all of life appears... 'your' life

but that life is not you, and not who you really are

in reality you are nothing and no-one

you are life itself happening as it is now - and there is nothing outside of that

the illusion is that you are personal

nothing can happen to you because there is no you

you can't be harmed (the body can perish - but it's not your body anymore than that flower is your body - it's the body of life)

it's a change of perception that's all... from seeing things through the personal identity - the i thought

to seeing things through nothing - the one that has no face

5) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look? 

not sure i understand the question...

i saw there was direct experience of life

then i-thought came in and narrates the experience

then i-thought believes it still is controlling because it believes it has this identity

then i looked closer... and saw there was no-one there...

thank you Ilona <3

Ilona:

Thank you, jasmine. That was a treat to read. You sound confidently through. I'm delighted to meet you at the 'other' side of non existent gate. 

Can I ask you one more question:

How does it feel in real life, have you noticed subtle changes? Is anything standing out that you would like to share? 

Sending Love.

Jasmine:

<3 : )

yes... i am noticing differences... and things keep revealing themselves to me as the days go by, so i will report what i noticed until now and maybe more in the days to come...

1. i seem more happy... not tortured by thoughts

thoughts have room in me, they don't mean anything... and if i believe a thought and it moves me to action that's fine too... but as opposed to before where there was a thinker doing things, i'm noticing that there is no opposition to what is happening.

2. one other big thing i notice is that i don't think things should be different than they are.

3. then... what else i noticed is that there doesn't seem to be a past (?!!!). i mean, i am aware that i am in front of a person i know... in a room a house i know for example... but there is no story of a past... like a lot of 'story' has been wiped-out in one big swoop... so what it feels like is that i am standing 'fresh' in front of someone... i may have a sense that they appreciate chocolate for example but it's not 'sticky' from a past - it's more about this moment they are eating chocolate and telling me that we bought chocolate together last year... and it's so wonderful to see them enjoy it - i enjoy it just as much (i used to suffer a lot because i believed in a past)

and so i let people be who they are, and i let this be who/what it is.

4. the other thing is that where before i used be concerned about what the other person thinks of me, if they like me, etc. now i am only noticing that i am doing what i like, saying what i want... there is no more (almost no) mental chatter in the presence of another or of events

5. i don't know what direction my life is going and i don't need to know... it's all okay (it doesn't mean i don't have preferences, or emotions, or visions, etc.) It's just impossible to know, and i'm at peace with that...

6. Some facets of my personality that where like 'my religion' have literally dropped overnight. I only know what those changed facets are as life shows me and my response is totally different to what it would have been before... i keep being surprised by how this thing is experiencing events now...

for example: my personality before really believed in commitment in relationship. Now i can still like it, live it, but it would be a lie to say that i can commit to something forever

or i would suffer if i didn't receive a call back from someone... Now i notice i don't suffer

7. Another thing is that i notice i don't stop my actions... and i have no fear to go up to people, or say things just as they come out, and the intimacy with other humans is totally there...

well.. it does feel like a beginning...

i'm so grateful. Thank you Ilona. I love you (I'm also more loving and kind by the way ; )

Ilona:

thank you for your clear and full answers. it's my pleasure to welcome you 'home' from which you have never left. 

are you on facebook? if not, please create an account and find me there https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100001758165632 i'll invite you to unleashed fb group. it is great to meet new friends after the gate and get help if stuckness gets you. happens sometimes.

lots of love.