Jasmine:
Hello,
My friend Marty sent me a link to you.
I've felt a strong resonance to inquiry since my early 20's and have used self-inquiry for some time.
Everything in my life is about self-realization and i am happy to be here to have this opportunity to explore this with you at this time.
Ilona:
Hi Jasmine, welcome to the forum.:)
What brings you here? What expectations do you have about this process?
Can you make a list of what you want seeing the truth to be like and what you don't.
What it should be and what it shouldn't.
Just write it all out.
Much love.
Jasmine:
Hi Ilona, I am here... found my thread : )
list of what I want seeing the truth to be like:
serenity
stillness
clarity
a constant state of love
presence
happiness
eternal communion with the beloved
being cared for nurtured
being safe
to know myself... to know all other
peace
what I don't want seeing the truth to be like:
aloneness
despair
chaos
separation
confusion
cruelty
pain
isolation
no protection
no one to care for me
eternal suffering
about my expectations... not really sure... i think i am just open to see what unfolds...
thank you!
Ilona:
hi Jasmine,
thank you for the answer.
seeing the truth does not change anything, it's simply seeing this as it is. It does not give an eternal peace and happiness, this is just a magical thinking of happy ever after. It allows one to see life directly and experience freedom in sadness and aloness without having to name it bad or wrong.
If you grew up with Santa story, or some other magical story, do you remember how it was to realize the truth that there is no magical characters in real life? that was seeing through illusion that parents made you believe. (or not, but you can imagine that as this is pretty common- letting children believing in magic).
So yes, there is this magical I/ me that can not be found, but people are still believing in it. So seeing the truth is just a drop of that belief. Life is going on as it always did, and no change gonna happen, other than in the way it's perceived.
So take another look at expectations and write it all out, no matter how magical they are, just so you can inspect it closely and we can leave them here before taking a fresh look.
much love.
Jasmine:
Thank you... this is very helpful what you wrote...
my expectations:
i expect to wake-up
to end suffering in my life
to never suffer again
to have everything go my way from now on
to be at peace
to find love
to be happy at last and that that be forever
to never be alone again
to get out of this chaos
to feel love for everyone and everything and loved by everyone and everything
to not be tortured by my thoughts again
to be unified in a romantic relationship :) haha
Ilona:
This is a beautiful an honest list of expectations. Thank you, but we are gonna leave all them to rest here for a while and once you come back to them later you will tell what are true and what are magical thinking.
One thing that you wrote is spot on- no more torture by thoughts. You will see that there is no thinker, no I that thinks thoughts and does action and thoughts are no longer a problem.
Let's start by examining thought itself. Where does it come from?
Are you thinking thoughts? Can you shut them down at will for like 10 min?
If you can not do that, what does it mean? Is I thought anymore special than other thoughts?
Just take a close look and write what you find. Dig deep.
Jasmine:
This is what i'm noticing... the thoughts just appear out of nowhere... sometimes thoughts appear not in words but rather images (of people or 'future' actions i will take, or things i will say for example). These images are also like thoughts and they also appear out of nowhere...
so in that, i can see that "I" am not actually the thinker of the thought...
when i try to shut the thoughts down for 10 minutes... i can't... thoughts or images appear out of the blue again... if i concentrate really hard, i focus on "don't think for 10 minutes" for example, and i repeat this sentence like a mantra for 10 minutes - then it would seem that i am in control of stopping thought... but actually what happens is that "I" still can't do it... suddenly more images or thoughts appear during those 10 minutes, and it's an effort to bring the mind back to the no thinking...
So, am I in control of thinking? No
Actions are the same... they seem to just happen...
Earlier in the kitchen i got a glimpse of what that means - it's like it's all just a happening...
but then the "I" thought comes back... Like I am the one doing this or that... or I WANT this or that... even I am trying to wake up and i can't...
I'm also confused... i see the thoughts appear, but then i see I thought fight with those thoughts... is there an I (self) fighting back with I (thoughts or God that is just appearing) ??
If there is no I-self... why am i so tortured?
Ilona:
Very good work jasmine. Going right for it.
If ther is no I-self, but there is a belief in I-self then you get that torture.
Good news is, there is no I-self, and never was, there is no one to be tortured.
What is that I that suffers?
Can it be located?
Suffering arises from the core belief that there is sufferer here to which suffering happens.
Check if it's true. What comes up when I say, there is no sufferer at all, just raw sensations + story + coments that go on by themselves on automatic.
Keep digging.
Jasmine:
this is what i'm discovering:
i noticed i had the thought to take a shower
and i thought i will inquire into the questions you asked while in the shower
then while showering, there is no-one there... just showering happening... washing hair, turning on more hot water, etc.
but i am not there to remember this is what is going on...
then suddenly the thought: "I didn't remember to inquire..." and "I will always be in this perpetual suffering..."
That I thought seems to be identified to a body... this body
so the I that suffers is linked to this body
I believe I am the body
... of course i have no proof that i am the body other than the I thought that appears that I exist at all... but in that moment IT does appear AND I AM THE I... ???!!!??
also, it seems that when something happens to this body - I suffer
I also seem to be able to control the direction this body goes in, and what it does... although only when "I" exist... (or i remember to remember that i exist)
it's weird
... who is the one that believes the "I"? (the I thought that arises)
isn't the one that believes the I (the believer) a separate self? or is believing just an involuntary happening?
"I" am taking a shower... in that moment I believe that i exist:
I am the body
I am doing something
I exist in time and space
"I" - the thought - is my identity
... I see that I is just a thought... but i still believe it is me... it is attached to this moment, this body, this doing...
"I" cannot not believe i am not this - that would be another thought trying to no believe I...
Ilona:
so the I that suffers is linked to this body
I believe I am the body
Interesting. I is linked to the body, how?
Which part of the body contains I?
If body looses both legs and both arms, is there loss of I?
Whith closed eyes, can you find a line between the body and what is outside the body? Where is I located?
Please answer each question precisely as you can.
Much love.
Jasmine:
I is linked to the body, how?
This life seems to revolve around this body. Since i am a child people address me, find me, in relationship to this body. If somebody hits this body, i feel the physical pain more than if they where to hit another, or a plant, or animal...
(although i am getting a glimpse that all pain is psychological not physical as i am writing this)
It also seems that thoughts arise, and i-this body has the control and power to move around and create a life for itself...
In other words, as thoughts arise they seem to be connected to this body, and as i-the body does things in the world, and meets people, talks... everything and everyone seems to answer back to this form... it gives me a sense of identity. Even as i am typing this there is a sense that it relates to me (although less so in this moment because i can't be located)
Also other people react to this body... other people confirm "I" (that i exist)
Which part of the body contains I?
No part.
When i look to find which part i don't find one
If body looses both legs and both arms, is there loss of I?
no
Whith closed eyes, can you find a line between the body and what is outside the body? Where is I located?
this i've felt for a long time. it's not located neither inside or outside. It doesn't seem to be located in the body more than outside the body.
yet when I thoughts arise they locate to a (this) body
is that what needs to happen in order to exist?
Thoughts need to identify to something in order to 'have a life' / live themselves out?
what does that mean? that nothing becomes something? but is that something me? it doesn't seem that i exist other than a thought... but why do i experience continuity?
And why do they keep locating to the same body?
And if i am not the body then it doesn't really matter what happens to it right?
and why to i feel so much emotional pain when say, a lover leaves me?
i realize i'm all over the place... i am really wanting to look at things closely and not just on surface.
i haven't had an opportunity to inquire in this way before... thank you.
Ilona:
ok, so here is this body with brain and neurons. it is a biological machine, an alive organism.
does it need a manager?
does brain need instructions how to run the body?
can it be that brain has created an image, labelled it "I" and now everything is seen through "I lens". what is here if there is no label?
does life goes around a center? is i a center of experience? and when was I given to you?
keep digging. :)
Jasmine:
does it need a manager? does brain need instructions how to run the body?
No, it functions on it's own
can it be that brain has created an image, labelled it "I" and now everything is seen through "I lens".
i suppose it's possible..
what is here if there is no label?
just life
does life goes around a center? is i a centre of experience?
it would seem so that life goes around 'my' center
and when was I given to you?
i just remember as a child people looking at me, this body, and giving me a name and identity, and then me responding to that...
i feel a little stuck
Ilona:
It's ok to feel a bit stuck, let's push forwards.
If there are no labels and there is just life, what happens to 'my' life? Does life belong to a me? Can you sense in any way ownership of life?
Is there a centre if it's not labelled 'my centre?'
With closed eyes, find a centre, where is it? can you find a line that divides here from there?
If you hear a distant sound, is it heard inside the body or where it happens?
If you were to take a finger and point to 'my center' where would the finger end up pointing?
Sending love.
Jasmine:
ok... thank you... i'll continue here... through the stuck-ness
if there are no labels "my life" becomes part of the whole, it doesn't belong to me... it's just like nature happening...
and there is no center, everything is center...
and i can't really find a separation between here and there...
if i hear a sound i see an image and that image is showing me where the sound is coming from or what it is...
but i suppose the sound is heard from "me" ?
with the finger exercise... the finger still mostly points to me
although my temptation is to point it to whatever is arising...
i'm not sure where my center is
although i still feel a sense of 'i' here from which everything happens to, is seen, etc.
thank you...
Ilona:
Very interesting about hearing.
Listen to some music, just hear every note, every instrument with curiosity. Can direct experience of music be compared to description of music. Try to describe what was listened. What was it that heard the music?
Is it me that hears ? is hearing happening and there is no hearer, but one experience of hearing? Is there a gap in sound being sounded and heard?
Also take something that has strong fragrance, anything. Smell that for 30 seconds. After describe the smell for another 30 seconds.
What mind does in both instances: smelling and describing, what are the processes running?
Much love!
Jasmine:
Hi Ilona,
The direct experience of music is so different than the mind coming-in afterwards and trying to describe it... music is like ... an experience... and hard to describe...
when music is heard no-one hears it... it is more like one experience of hearing as you say...
and there is no gap - sound and hearing arise simultaneously... actually there is no separation between the two.
And what was it that heard the music? nothing heard the music is the most accurate way to put it.
second best way to put it is that this moment heard the music - but that would imply time and there doesn't seem to be any.
The smell was...
pungent, sweet, warm, moist,spicy, acid, flower-full...
the process the mind is doing is remembering when it's describing... trying to describe an experience of oneness... it almost seems like the mind has to separate from the direct experience in order to process it and describe it... and then there is an i there that describes, before that mind process there is no i... just one moment or experience...
hmmm... and i may be very hard nut to crack : ) because as i continue here writing this to you... i still feel a sense of identity
love, jasmine
Ilona:
Great, thank you for answer. Yes, mind is only trying to describe direct experience, it's all just a story about life.
Sense of identity?
Where is it felt? How does it feel? Is it there I if it's not labeled, described by the mind?
Can you find that sense of aliveness, being (verb) and see is it here if you don't think about it, is it here if it's labelled I? Is it personal? Where is the line between here and there?
Examine it the same way as you did with hearing and smelling.
What do you find?
And, don't worry about being a hard nut. It's all down to your intention to see. And I sense it's set right :)
Jasmine:
Dear Ilona,
something shifted as i was inquiring into your questions this morning.
i can see that i am part of nature, of what is...
the mind just comes in just a few milliseconds after the direct experience of life and describes or narrates what has just happened and adds a whole interpretation to it... but that i is not me.
direct experience is not personal. 'this' (jasmine) just happens just like 'that' just happens...
as i looked in the mirror i couldn't quite believe anymore that that was I
it is just part of nature
it has preferences, it believes it wants this or likes that... it just does it's thing... just like everything else in life does it's thing... but it's certainly not i...
i am not my thoughts, i am not my mind, i am not my body, i am not my story... it's just a happening.
to be completely thorough i'm curious about the relationship between thought and body:
when i was looking in the mirror and watching nature (previously thought as me) and curious at what that was...
i said "move a finger"... and the finger moved...
if i say "bird stop singing" ... bird doesn't stop...
the i-thought can come in there and believe it has control and therefore is a self... and is separate because it doesn't have that control over the bird...
i'm sitting in that inquiry... it's like thought comes in and body moves
what and where is the command center?
thank you so much for your support <3
Ilona:
How about the brain being command centre together with neurons.
If you look at animal, where is its comand centre?
And before you think a thought about saying to your finger to move, the neurons have fired and this intention popped in, thought followed and finger moved. All on automatic.
Take a look at free will and decision making. How does that work?
I'm delighted to hear that nature has shown itself and you a crossing the gate nicely. :))))
Some time later
Ilona:
Ilona:
How is it going, jasmine? Are you still here?
Sending love.
Jasmine:
Hi Ilona,
yes, i am here. I just was traveling : )
thank you for checking-in : ) so kind of you...
I have been sitting with your question...
mmm... it seems that there is no free will or decision making...
I mean 'this one' just moves and acts and speaks, when the command is fired or when the thought has popped into the brain and then it does things. But it is not in control of the thoughts that 'pop-in'... not even the one's that seem more voluntary like "I will go to New York" for example... those 'decision-making' thoughts are also not mine...
... this is so strange... and yet it seems accurate
I mean I really don't have control of anything... ?
I'm still sitting in this...
like is there co-creation process... ?
thank you <3
Ilona:
Great to see you back here.
It's not that you don't have control over anything.
There is no you to have control. When control happens it does not happen because you caused it.
There is no actor that chooses the role to play or words to speak. All is one play that is playing out.
Good question about co-creation.
How much a brush in artists' hand co-creates a painting?
Yes, there are strokes, there is particular way that paint is applied with particular brush, but can that brush own the creation of the painting?
Investigate here and tell, what role does uniqueness play in co- creation of experience of life?
Much love.
hello sweetness : )
so much to report : )
I wanted to share with you that since that inquiry where i looked in the mirror and cannot any longer believe that that is me, life feels so different... i mean everything is the same just not the same...
there is no one to protect, or defend... this character is so free... it cannot be hurt... i understand what it means for the first time that that which was never born can never die...
tomorrow is my birthday... i look forward to exploring what was born...
I wanted to share with you that i am much more free in everything i do and say. And that there is an experience of fearlessness present... meaning that i do not have to be anything... i can just follow direction and that's it.
I don't think that the brush can own the creation of the painting...
And about the role of uniqueness in the co-creation of experience of life... what i notice is all the different "brushes" (humans) all have their own unique ways... the thoughts they believe... and the things they do and like... and it brings such a beautiful palette or tone to the painting...
they are "choosing' the colors to paint with so to speak, but simultaneously they have no choice in what's been chosen...
right now i don't see how they can control their uniqueness - it is just done through them...
i suppose if the thought appears to someone that they can manifest a certain thing, i suppose they can do that through the laws of the universe...? but it doesn't have a cause... is that accurate?
i'm also understanding that there is no cause and effect... because there is no cause...
Ilona:
Dear jasmine,
I'm delighted to hear that there is new found freedom and new seeing of life. This is great and it's only a beginning. :)
Here are some final questions that i'll ask you to answer in full and as you see.
1) Is there a 'me', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?
2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works.
3) How does it feel to see this?
4) How would you describe it to somebody who has never heard about this illusion.
5) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?
Lots of love! And have a very happy birthday :))
Jasmine:
1) Is there a 'me', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?
There is no 'me'... there is no 'other'... the idea of me existed but that was never me
i see clearly but it is not "i" that sees
seeing just sees / happens
and actually there is no seeing at all - because there is no one to see
it's just one big explosive happening - and wow - all here, all at once, in no time
2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works.
the illusion is a thought
a thought that 'i am somebody'
rather than be nothing (or everything) the thought 'i' arises and becomes somebody... 'this one'
'this one' exists as an idea
the idea is totally engrossed in itself - to uphold itself - everything becomes something, everything becomes separate
the idea 'i' sees, talks, moves, choses...
when the idea 'i' is present it cannot see that it doesn't exist at all
in order to exist, it (the idea) has to exist
without the idea, no one is here (only life - but there is no one to know that)
3) How does it feel to see this?
like nothing happened
it's just clear
i cannot any longer believe that i or you are here
it's not a state that can be lost - there is no i that ever was
it feels... natural... clear
'the one that lives' meets life fearlessly
it's just a wonder-filled gift that anything appears at all! - so intimate... lovely
'this one' has lost it's illusion of control - and so it just moves with much less self-talk because it understands that it's not here and therefore has no need to be anything, defend anything, control anything...
in actuality... take what you need from 'this' - i am service, if anything at all
just grateful for this nothing happening
nothing has changed except that everything has changed
life is just lived (nothing else is possible)
'this one that lives' has it's ways, likes, dislikes, it does it's thing... who knows what it will do next. One movement
4) How would you describe it to somebody who has never heard about this illusion.
: ) haha
i'll give this a try... asking questions would be my way to describe the un-describable...
there is no self
never was
there is only life
arising or happening
you are not who you think you are (literally)
find out if you exist at all outside of thought... and what is left if you are not
you exist because there is this thought 'i' that appears... and then you believe it ('it' becomes something/somebody), and then it has a life - and all of life appears... 'your' life
but that life is not you, and not who you really are
in reality you are nothing and no-one
you are life itself happening as it is now - and there is nothing outside of that
the illusion is that you are personal
nothing can happen to you because there is no you
you can't be harmed (the body can perish - but it's not your body anymore than that flower is your body - it's the body of life)
it's a change of perception that's all... from seeing things through the personal identity - the i thought
to seeing things through nothing - the one that has no face
5) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?
not sure i understand the question...
i saw there was direct experience of life
then i-thought came in and narrates the experience
then i-thought believes it still is controlling because it believes it has this identity
then i looked closer... and saw there was no-one there...
thank you Ilona <3
Ilona:
Thank you, jasmine. That was a treat to read. You sound confidently through. I'm delighted to meet you at the 'other' side of non existent gate.
Can I ask you one more question:
How does it feel in real life, have you noticed subtle changes? Is anything standing out that you would like to share?
Sending Love.
Jasmine:
<3 : )
yes... i am noticing differences... and things keep revealing themselves to me as the days go by, so i will report what i noticed until now and maybe more in the days to come...
1. i seem more happy... not tortured by thoughts
thoughts have room in me, they don't mean anything... and if i believe a thought and it moves me to action that's fine too... but as opposed to before where there was a thinker doing things, i'm noticing that there is no opposition to what is happening.
2. one other big thing i notice is that i don't think things should be different than they are.
3. then... what else i noticed is that there doesn't seem to be a past (?!!!). i mean, i am aware that i am in front of a person i know... in a room a house i know for example... but there is no story of a past... like a lot of 'story' has been wiped-out in one big swoop... so what it feels like is that i am standing 'fresh' in front of someone... i may have a sense that they appreciate chocolate for example but it's not 'sticky' from a past - it's more about this moment they are eating chocolate and telling me that we bought chocolate together last year... and it's so wonderful to see them enjoy it - i enjoy it just as much (i used to suffer a lot because i believed in a past)
and so i let people be who they are, and i let this be who/what it is.
4. the other thing is that where before i used be concerned about what the other person thinks of me, if they like me, etc. now i am only noticing that i am doing what i like, saying what i want... there is no more (almost no) mental chatter in the presence of another or of events
5. i don't know what direction my life is going and i don't need to know... it's all okay (it doesn't mean i don't have preferences, or emotions, or visions, etc.) It's just impossible to know, and i'm at peace with that...
6. Some facets of my personality that where like 'my religion' have literally dropped overnight. I only know what those changed facets are as life shows me and my response is totally different to what it would have been before... i keep being surprised by how this thing is experiencing events now...
for example: my personality before really believed in commitment in relationship. Now i can still like it, live it, but it would be a lie to say that i can commit to something forever
or i would suffer if i didn't receive a call back from someone... Now i notice i don't suffer
7. Another thing is that i notice i don't stop my actions... and i have no fear to go up to people, or say things just as they come out, and the intimacy with other humans is totally there...
well.. it does feel like a beginning...
i'm so grateful. Thank you Ilona. I love you (I'm also more loving and kind by the way ; )
Ilona:
thank you for your clear and full answers. it's my pleasure to welcome you 'home' from which you have never left.
are you on facebook? if not, please create an account and find me there https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100001758165632 i'll invite you to unleashed fb group. it is great to meet new friends after the gate and get help if stuckness gets you. happens sometimes.
lots of love.
lots of love.
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