Monday 25 February 2013

KJ: The Anxiety that Was Here for Years Started Melting

This was long conversation and it was beautiful to see the change in KJ. There was fear, anxiety and uncertainty, intense looking and laughing out loud. It's my pleasure to share this story of transformation. 


KJ
November

Hi Ilona,

My name is KJ. I am 40 year old man from Finland. Or that is how the story goes :)

I've been following your blog "marked eternal" for some months now. There is something in your communication with people that resonates with me strongly.

I know that you have this liberation unleashed project, and that you have many people "working there", but I would really like to clear some things up with you if that is possible.

So I just write very shortly now and ask if you could help me?

Best wishes,

Ilona
Hi KJ. Yes, I can be here for you. I may not reply everyday, but you keep writing to me daily. It's how mind clarifies thinking.

So what brought you here? What are you looking for? What are you expecting to see?

Bring it all on.


And before answering please read the disclaimer on this page.  It sums a lot what is not going to happen. Just so you know where you are going.
http://www.liberationunleashed.com/
Much love.

KJ
Hi. You asked me to write daily even if you don't answer.
 "What are you expecting to see?" was the question.

 Randall Friend wrote today in his blog:

-------------
"Consciousness IS experience.   As long as Consciousness continues to arise, experience will continue.  Once Consciousness ceases experience will cease.

However existence is not dependent upon experience.  Existence IS THAT which IS -that which IS, right this very moment, that which IS no matter what experience may hold. "

 ---------------

Ok....This is the one thing where I am stuck. I understand that consciousness and experience are the same thing. However he is saying that existence in not dependent upon experience. In other words that existence is not dependent upon consciousness.
I mean how can there be any knowing of existing without consciousness????

 So I guess this means that without body-brain-consciousness, there is no existing...

Ilona
Ok, KJ, let's start again.


What are your expectations?
No quotes, no philosophy, go right down to what YOU feel and expect. What do you want from awakening? How will you recognize it.

Make a list:
1.
2
3....

And sincerely put all down.

Focus is very important in this process.

Cool?

KJ
 My list is short. There's only one thing.
I want to live without fear. All my life I've been afraid and I want that to end. And I don't mean kind of fear if someone pulls gun on my face, but psychological fear and anxiety. I don't need to be ultra-happy all the time. I just want all the suffering that is based on separate self idea to end.

Above is same as awakening to me. I don't care about any words like enlightenment or liberation. End of suffering=liberation.

And I will recognize it when that fear is not arising anymore.

Ok, that's it.

.........................
Hi Ilona,

I don't know if you read my earlier email but I have to report to you. I had realization this morning. I had many before but this one was most powerful. It is little bit covered by now but I learned very important lesson. I realized that there is NO WAY that this type of suffering (that I wrote you about earlier), can hold up when this is fully realized. Why? Because there IS NO ONE HERE! it is nobody's suffering :)
There is something here...but it is not separate someone doing anything.

This "I" is just some kind of thought loop in the brain.
Oh yeah...like if I could make thoughts happen...what a joke. Like I could tell to my brain to move my arms or legs...what a joke!  I laughed when this was realized. Now I know what it means when they say "cosmic joke"..hehhee

I'll get back to you later.

.............................
Ahahaaaa!!!
How funny is that! So much personal story and attachment where really there is no one here! All the seriousness goes through the window!

Ilona
I'm laughing with you my friend.
Here is a little video, that we made at  LU. I was laughing there for the second day, non stop.

 http://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=plcp&v=SDCJdrcqzDM
:)

What was the last bit that had to be seen through? What pushed you over?

Much love.

KJ
Thank you for videos :) Last bit...hmmm....I was taking a bath and the inquiry about doership arose and I just realized that there is no "I" involved in anything. Body moving...thoughts happening...seeing happening...hearing happening...No self doing any of those things.
Maybe the last bit was that there is no separate I doing thinking.
And even if there was separate I, there is no way that separate I could cause itself. It would have to be created by life.
And therefore it too is life. And that is only thing that is happening...LIFE! :)
But I have to say that there has been these realizations before and always somehow the confusion gets back again. So we will see how this goes.

Do you have any advice for that if it happens?

Thank u

Ilona
If confusion comes back, is there someone to own it?

Yes, sometimes one gets sucked back into the story, but what has been seen can never be unseen. And getting sucked in the story is also life happening by itself.

We have Facebook groups where you can meet others and participating in discussions helps to settle in.

How does it feel today? Is anything different?

Much love.

KJ
Thanks Ilona. yes that is so true. There is something different but I will write to you later because we're going to visit my girlfriends grandmother. But I tell you about it when we come back home.

................................
Hi again,

Facebook...I don't know. I've been avoiding that because I'm working with computer and if I start to hang around in facebook then all my time goes with computers. But I will consider this possibility.

You asked if anything is different. Well...everything is the same. No bliss or intense joy. Mind is not silent.

Oneness experience came and went today.
I used to believe that when realization is "complete" then oneness doesn't fade away anymore.
Maybe today I finally realized that this never was about having any kind of experience...

Thank u.

Ilona
Oh yes, realization is not about ever lasting experience or state. It's about seeing that whatever comes up arises and passes on it's own. That there is no doer, no thinker, no experiencer to which life happens.

How are you feeling today?
Is there a certainty or doubt?
Is there anything else that needs to be understood?

Sending love.

KJ
Hello. I'm feeling ok thank you :) Most of the time there's certainty but some doubts are also arising. There is "this isn't the final understanding"-doubt coming up, because all the suffering is not released yet. But it is also seen that there isn't any landing with this. No final arriving.
I guess it takes time for old habits and conditioning of mind to balance.

No questions coming anyway...

Thanks

Ilona
Of course all the conditioning is still here, it did not get set in a day or two, it takes time to see through all that. This is only a first step, far from final understanding. But without this step, no going further.

Yes, it's a beginning of the fall and there is nowhere to land :)

Final understanding is another sweet carrot that drives one insane.

What is there to understand?
What is here to know?

This waking up is about unknowing everything you thought that you know. And seeing every moment with fresh eyes. This is all there is. As in now.

Time needed to rebalance depends on how much clearing needs to be done. It may require an effort to look through conditioning.

This seeing through illusion is not ending all the suffering. It the beginning of releasing of the sufferer.

Tell me, what is it that suffers? How exactly is suffering happening and where does it happen? What has suffering to do with labels of feelings?

Write to me what you find out.

Sending love.

KJ
I think this releasing of suffering began couple of years ago because the anxiety has diminished so much. Last Sunday however there was this moment where "sufferer" completely disappeared and it was seen that it is impossible to suffer when it's not there. Of course it was never there but you know how difficult this is to explain. It was like "it" had no place to hide anymore. All the possibilities where seen through and there was this moment. So mind has made this formula that "final understanding" is when this moment of seeing comes back and stays forever...hehehee ...enlightenment :)
Answers to your questions:
1. What it is that suffers?
This word "what" wants some kind of object, but there aren't any objects so I would have to say that there is movement and motion of sensations. Suffering = resisting this movement.
2. How exactly is suffering happening and where does it happen?
It seems that this movement of suffering is triggered by certain situations that are expected to bring suffering. I mean they are fantasized before. Where it's happening? Do you mean where in body? There are certain sensations in the body. This is really hard to describe. It's terrible heaviness.
3. What has suffering to do with labels of feelings?
Do you mean words like depression or anxiety or sorrow? These labels points to same movement of energy that is labeled "suffering". But I have to say that maybe I do not understand this question =/

...............................
Hello,

I think I'm not very good at writing if you don't reply. But I'm just checking in now :)
I'm experiencing little bit of mood swinging. There's this irritation because this "seeing" is not stabilizing. Maybe it is not stabilizing because mind expects it to stabilize =/
Tired of this seeking business...
I think another dangerous carrot is this "end of seeking carrot". There is no experience of that, so mind doesn't want to rest...

Ilona
Hi KJ,

I was busy, sorry, could not write. But I'm here and this process is yours, so keep writing to me.

Well, seeing is available every moment. It's not that seeing happened, now it's done.

No. Seeing happened, so it can be seen over and over again and over again. You don't look into the past and miss the experience. You look in the now and see now. That seeing, staring at the void is what is happening and that is how conditioning and beliefs are dropped. It does not happen overnight. Checking lasts for months and stabilization also takes time. It's a big tsunami to the system. Expecting the final done is the last carrot. Is there anyone to arrive anywhere? There is only falling. And no where to land.

It may be frustrating at the beginning as it does not meet your expectations. But expectations are grasping to last straw, let them dissolve and see what is. Face the obvious. And trust that whatever life brings you is exactly what you need. There are no mistakes. Just continuous flow. One movement.

Surrender is what is left when resistances drop. And resistances are showing the way. Every should and shouldn't is in the way of clarity.

Should you be happy and blissful all the time now that the first step happened?

Yeah. It's a very common expectation. Guess what, life does not stop here. It carries on. And saying yes to whatever comes is priceless. Curiosity too as well as willingness to accept lessons and knowing that it's only a beginning to life after the invisible line was crossed.

Be kind to the mind.

Much love.

KJ
Hi there,

Thank you for your answer. Was very helpful.

Things has been very clear again today. In my mind's eye there has been this child on a beach building a sand castle. But nothing that is separate from the sand is created. There is no new thing existing. Only sand.
Only one being morphing endlessly.

So at what point did the separate I began? Ridiculous question....

I hope you have good weekend Ilona :)

Ilona
Good question, at what point separate I began? How would you describe it?
Thank you, weekend is great do far. Wish your being fun too.

Much love.

KJ
Well, it never really did began. Only belief in it began. Maybe somewhere around age 1-3 when mind or brain starts learning meaning of words. Words like "I" "me", "boy", "son", "person" and so on are learned. And name "KJ" points to all of these words.

Of course in my case these labels are in finish language. Actually there are no different words in Finnish language for "I" and "me". Only one word "minä".

And all these words points to a body. Sometimes I or me is this body. Like: I am fat or I am ugly. And sometimes these words point to some kind of entity inside the body who owns it. My arm, my leg, my eye. And of course everything that seems to go on inside body. My feelings and thoughts.

Separate self is a mixture of these elements.
And then self judgement begins. I am good boy or I am terrible son, fearful person. Self image is born. But never a real person who is living somewhere inside, doing things, choosing. That is a fantasy.

What you think. Maybe we could talk little bit about awareness?
I can't deny this experience of living and awareness of it. So it seems that there is something here that is conscious.
But you tell me. How should we proceed?

Ilona
Yes, there is being, awareness, consciousness, reality, life, whatever you wish to call it. Undeniable. Always here now.

Is it I? Or I is a label put over this and assumed to be separate.

And look at body, is it body that is experiencing or body is experience + label 'body'

Is there anything doing looking, seeing?
What is here?

KJ
It's not assumed to be separate because of that.

You could say that body is experienced because of brain.

Without living brain there is no awareness.
So because of that there is separation at some level.
You could say that there's only one life, but experiences are individual.

Please help me with this one. This is the one question that is driving mind insane.

............................
Hi, Don't worry about the brain question.

It cleared this morning :) But I will tell you about it later because I have to start working now.
.............................
Hi,

I'm just checking in. No new questions coming up. Brain-question resolved itself. There cannot be any owner of any experience. Everything is just life happening.
I notice that there is still some kind of waiting-for-something-to-happen-mode going on sometimes.

Ilona
Cool, great to hear.
So can you say that shift has happened and are you ready for the final questions?

:)

KJ
Hi,

I am ready. But I would prefer that if you not publish our conversation. If that's ok with you?
I could say that there is a "shift". The separate self is a total fantasy and I think it's impossible for my brain to start believing that again.

But conditioning is still strong, and that is also the reason why I don't want this to be published.
For some reason I don't want to go very public with these things. I do not know the exact reason.

I want to thank you for your help. I think this kind of work is a gift to mankind.

:)

Ilona
Hi KJ.

I would not publish anything without your permission. Some people prefer if I use a different name it just an initial. But if I don't publish, I can't have other guides to look through and ask questions if they have any, also I can not invite you to support groups where you can get help with working through conditioning. There are lots of new people that you may want to share your experiences with.

 So if you feel strong resistance you may ask a question, what is there to protect and from what?

And perhaps we can work a bit longer, till you have a clear yes, shift happened, all is clear.
What would you like to address before the last questions?

Sending love.

KJ
Ok thank you. Before we go any further I would like to ask you if you read all emails I send to you? Including those where I told you about my history (or story)?

I didn't get reply from you to all of them. That's why I ask. When you answer to this email I then know how to continue from here.

Ilona
Yes, I read all emails.

KJ
Ok good. Then I must ask that if those type of things I wrote to you, are still huge problem for me. Do I have clear eyes?
I mean being around other people is difficult for me. And worrying if they read about "my" story from your blog. I honestly don't know.
I really cannot believe in separate self. But problems and suffering that are caused by belief in one, still exist.

So...what to do?

Thank you for your patience.

Ilona
Hmm, if you still see problems as something you have, then we can look deeper. No rush, it takes as long as it takes, until there is clarity.

So you say, that you can not believe in separate self, that's cool, but how about separate selves in others? Are there others?

What is the worst that can happen if someone would read a story about you? Do you need to protect a story? What makes the story 'mine'?

Write what you notice.  Trust that all is unfolding as it should.


Much love.

KJ
These are all excellent questions. I will dive into them during this weekend.

Thanks Ilona :)

Ilona
Cool :)
Write to me when you got answers.

Much love to you, KJ.

KJ
Are there others? What is the worst that can happen if someone would read a story about you? Do you need to protect a story? What makes the story 'mine'?
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Something came up regarding to these questions. This is two part answer.
Part 1.

You know I could give you good "advaita answer" and say that there is no others or there is no world or nothing exists, but I will not.

Yes. There seems to be a belief that there are others with their own lives and I don't want to be responsible for ruining it for them. That is why there is fear of someone reading my story. Because it can lead them asking me questions about this stuff. And that can lead into serious mental problems for them, if I tell them about reality of life. And if they get mental problems it is my fault and then they will not like me very much. Here we see how the root fear is: "not being liked". Others will not like (love) me. Separation.

I think that at the bottom of all these problems are the core fear that other people will not like me. If I show them my emotions, they will not like me. They will see my true nature and they will just laugh at me and tell me I'm stupid or something. Or that they will be angry with me. I had very difficult childhood and lived in constant fear because my father was a very angry man with difficult mental problems and alcoholism.

Yes. All of this seems to be protection of self image. Maybe the loosing of that image is then same as death (for the mind)

Part 2.

There seems to be others who are still lost in their illusion and not seeing their true nature. And of course that then makes me this realized and wise person. Strange thing is that I realize that this is totally bullshit, but then in the next moment I feel anger if someone is acting based on the false beliefs. But I also realize that it is not false beliefs for them. Just for me.
And maybe the key thing to see would be that there isn't anyone acting...

Ok. Let's continue from here...

...............................
Hi there,

Yesterdays answer was mind stuff. So I will give you another answer from understanding. I just came from walk and something cleared up again. Thoughts were wrestling with this "is there others" question. So there was seeing that, no there is no others or me or anything because I can't find any beginning or end of anything.
So there was walking and suddenly I was everything. Trees, road, dark sky, rain, buildings. Somehow everything has this same essence. I came home and this woman was singing on TV. Suddenly there was burst of joy and tears came. Out of nowhere Seems that this starts to happen more often. Some kind of dam inside is breaking...beautiful :)

Ilona
Oh wow, beautiful..

Nice. Spacious.
So me has been seen to be an illusion?

When you look at KJ, what do you see?

Much love.

KJ
Hi,

This feels almost like a trick question. I will answer to this question when I find the me. Then I can tell if it's a illusion or not.

I can say that it is seen, but there is also falling into doubt and confusion. But it is clear that there is no one falling. It's just thinking. And believing that thinking creates the confusion.

Thanks Ilona :)

.................................

Ilona
hi KJ, how is it going?

KJ
Hi Ilona. is going ok. Sorry I haven't been very active on writing past couple of days. There has been clarity today. Absence of self. It seems that this pattern of clarity and then falling into confusion and kind of depression is going on. That is why it's so difficult to write sometimes. But I actually don't know what to write.
I hope all is going well for you.

............................
Hi there,

I have nothing much to report. Just wanted to check in. All is pretty clear Today there was intense happiness (funny words that "there and here" because I don't know where there/here actually is, it's placeless place)

Very intense energy is going on inside body (actually don't know if that is inside body or placeless place again) and some pain coming to acupuncture points.

Well, that's it for now :)

Ilona
Sounds like you are having fun!

So is there an I in control of what is happening?
Is there a me to be happy of unhappy?

When you look at body, is it your body or body? Is it the body that experiences?

How was your day today?

Describe the view. :)
Sending love.

KJ
No, no I. There is no one controlling anything. No me to be happy or unhappy. And no owner of the body either. When I seem to forget this I always think about the axe :) There's handle and there's blade. But where is the axe itself? Axe is the owner of the blade and the handle??!!...ridiculous. But then again. These are just loops of thought. No one thinking them. Everything is happening automatically.

Today has been fine. It's day off from work because it's independence day. They say that "we are independent from the rest of the world". I sometimes wonder how on earth I managed to go on for 37 years and not seeing the joke Well, it is really convincing illusion.

Thank you Ilona :)

Ilona
You are very welcome!

What happens, when you look at what is looking? What is it that sees?

When you look at others, family, friends, strangers, has the view changed? How?

Much love.

KJ
Hello,
There is nothing that is looking. There is an activity of focusing but it moves on it's own. It only appears that it is under control when focus is in itself. I guess this focusing is the main illusion. That there is some entity moving the focus like flashlight. There is not. The entity is clearly imagined. And this imaging is happening by itself also. There is no way out of this loop because there is no one in the loop! Or maybe there's a way out of it by just seeing the insanity of this. So far it seems that mind or thought is incredibly attracted to this looping thing.

Life appears as sights, sounds, smells, tastes, without a point that is doing those things. But I must say that lately there has been a quality or difference between intellectually grasping this and actually seeing it. Very difficult to explain. I've been having these oneness experiences for long time now but after I started to check this again with you there has been clear recognition couple of times that could be described as absence. Absence of what...I don't know. But I also notice the trap here. Mind is trying to make some kind of goal out of this "true seeing" and push "the seeing of absence" to future.

I guess the most difficult area is with family and friends, so I am still getting angry and frustrated with them. I don't know if one gets ever rid of that. How it is with you? There are times when there's clear recognition of others as myself. But this comes and goes.

Thanks Ilona.

........................
Hi Ilona,

So many days has passed that I assume that you will not answer to my last email. Anyway I have a question for you :)

I think you said somewhere on your site that there will be some kind of knowing or something when the search is over. Can you tell me what you mean by this statement?

I wish you merry Christmas

Ilona
Hi KJ!
Great to hear from you :)
Sorry I did not answer your last email. I was getting sucked in some other stuff...

How is it going?
Can you say that shift has happened? Are there any doubts?

Sending love.

KJ
Hi, Sorry late answer. I was having some difficulties with internet connection. It is going ok thank you. Shift? I don't know. Who or what is there to shift?
I have doubts but I don't write them now because (and don't take this wrong way :) I wrote so much to you and you did not answer to questions. So I think it's a waste of time to write if you are not answering. You asked if I have any doubts. Look at my last email. There is a question. You could also label it a doubt. You can answer to that if you want.

Sorry about this but I have to be honest with you. I really appreciate this, but I am getting a feeling that you want to go through this quickly and get another feather to your hat. Maybe that is why you ignore all the questions. I don't know maybe you have so many people writing to you that you don't have time. Or maybe this is just my fantasy.

If I would say to you now that seeking is over, I would lie. And I think you said that honesty is a key thing in seeing through the illusion.
Do you still want to continue or is there anything to do at this point?

Thank you so much Ilona

Ilona
In this process it is you that finds answers to your questions and mine. What I think is irrelevant. I can only guide you by holding your focus on right questions.

Writing is a tool to focus the mind. If you write to me, I read, of course, but I don't respond because, again, it's irrelevant. Your search is your own. And it is you here that got to think for yourself, trusting your direct experience. This is not a friendly conversation where I answer your questions. You have a question- work it till you know. By yourself, for yourself, for the love of truth. I'm here to help you with that, but not to do your work.

I care not for any feather on my hat, as the biggest gift for me from you is your recognition of freedom. Please don't believe the stories that your mind creates about me. It's just mental images.

Ok. So your question was and still is how do you know when the search is over?
How would you know?

If the search is still going, it's obviously still here.

The questions I suggest- is there a searcher, or search is going on by itself? Are you doing the searching? Can you stop at will? Can you just quit, if you choose so? Is there any control over what is happening?

Sending love.

KJ
It is possible that you already received one reply to this mail but I'm not sure because I have still problems with internet connection.

I am writing this from another computer shortly, but I will get back to you later when I get my connection back. Your answer was quite powerful. I thank you for it. It really stopped all the bullshit that mind is throwing. I let this question of "ending the search" sit until I get my internet back. Thank you for not giving up with me :)

.........................
Hello. Ok. I got my net connection back.
How would I know when the search is over?
It is obvious and clear that there is no one doing the seeking. It cannot be stopped by illusory will power.
If one believes all the sages and enlightened people who are saying that all mental suffering can be resolved by seeing this then I would say that the search ends when suffering ends.

But I think that you said that suffering doesn't end on awakening but is resolved over time.
Also there is this unity experience coming and going. It's more often now since I started to talk with you. There is this constant expectation that when this experience doesn't leave then that is also a sign of search ending.

But I'm beginning to see that this unity experience must always go at some point because it comes. Like all experience.

I'm quite tired of this flip flopping. I really don't know even what I'm seeking anymore. It seems that these moments of clarity and happiness comes, but they always go.
What's next I don't know?

Ilona
Hello. Ok. I got my net connection back.
How would I know when the search is over?
It is obvious and clear that there is no one doing the seeking. It cannot be stopped by illusory will power.

Nice.

If one believes all the sages and enlightened people who are saying that all mental suffering can be resolved by seeing this then I would say that the search ends when suffering ends.

Seeing this first time is an opening. From that seeing everything starts falling off, nothing that is not true sticks anymore... So suffering does not end instantly, but there is a space around it and it is no longer seen as bad or wrong.

When you go to school first year, you are not expecting to pass high school exams, just the same here, taking the first peak does not end all suffering. It's the beginning of dissolving beliefs and suffering is closely connected to them.

But I think that you said that suffering doesn't end on awakening but is resolved over time.
Also there is this unity experience coming and going. It's more often now since I started to talk with you. There is this constant expectation that when this experience doesn't leave then that is also a sign of search ending.

Search ends, when you no longer look for answers from someone else, you find all your answers by yourself. And second hand experience is confirming what you see, rather then being a source of knowledge of what you should see.  That is obvious, when you read or listen to somebody else's experiences and recognize what they are talking about.

But I'm beginning to see that this unity experience must always go at some point because it comes. Like all experience.

Yes, experiences are impermanent.

I'm quite tired of this flip flopping.

It is ok to relax.

I really don't know even what I'm seeking anymore.

Maybe you are not seeking anymore? Check.

It seems that these moments of clarity and happiness comes, but they always go.
What's next I don't know?

Nice.  I don't know either :)

Much love.

KJ
Hi Ilona, and thank you for your answer. Fantastic stuff.
This sentence I didn't quite understand. Could you put it in other words...please ? :) -----------------------

And second hand experience is confirming what you see, rather then being a source of knowledge of what you should see.  That is obvious, when you read or listen to somebody else's experiences and recognize what they are talking about.
--------------------  Happy new year! :)

Ilona
hm, i must say, when you cross the line, it makes perfect sense.
in other words, your direct experience and your own description of it is your first hand experience. when anyone else describes what they see, it is a second hand experience. these second hand descriptions are just that, descriptions, but if you see the same, you recognize what these descriptions are in your direct experience. so when you see clearly and read something by someone else there is confirmation of what you see.

hope that makes it clearer.

how is it going?

happy new year to you!
much love.

KJ
ok thanks, now I got it. Maybe it was the concept second hand that got me confused. But I am not 100% sure if I crossed the line...

it's going ok thank you. Yesterday was again stunning clarity. You asked me to check if seeking is still going on. It was clear that there was no one seeking. How is that even possible? But at the same time when there's recognition of seeker missing, there is also fear that if I let go of seeking "I will never get this" and fall back to old. Whatever that means...Then...who can let go of seeking and fall back? Somehow it feels that I just need final little push...I don't know what that could be. Maybe the need for that final little push is the last obstacle. And then what?

Ilona
ok thanks, now I got it. Maybe it was the concept second hand that got me confused. But I am not 100% sure if I crossed the line...

Then you haven't.  There is definite knowing when line is crossed. Knowing that there never was any line.

it's going ok thank you. Yesterday was again stunning clarity. You asked me to check if seeking is still going on. It was clear that there was no one seeking. How is that even possible? But at the same time when there's recognition of seeker missing, there is also fear that if I let go of seeking "I will never get this" and fall back to old.

Nice. But what is that I that will never get this? Find that I. Perhaps look behind the fear.

Whatever that means...Then...who can let go of seeking and fall back? Somehow it feels that I just need final little push...I don't know what that could be. Maybe the need for that final little push is the last obstacle. And then what?

Then just more of the same- chop wood, carry water. :) but without the urge to get out from here and now to whatever 'next'.

What is not on automatic?

Sending love.

KJ
This "crossing the line" is same thing as "stop believing in separate self" correct?
When I am feeling fear with other people and urge to escape, isn't this same as believing that there is separate self?

So how can I know that some kind of line is crossed when these things still happen?

There is no way that I could know.
I can know these moments of relief when it is realized that there is no separate self. But these always fade away.

It seems that I'm holding this complete end of suffering as a sign that line is crossed.
But I also know that it is bullshit. How can something that has been going on for over 40 years disappear so quickly?
Many teachers really say that it can happen. Maybe it does for some.
Ok, this seems to be just babbling with myself. But I think you said that it's the whole point. Answer your own questions.

I feel like Gollum/Smeagol split...

Leave now and never come back!!!!! You know that scene? It's fantastic!

Hehe...Comment if you want :)

Ilona
This "crossing the line" is same thing as "stop believing in separate self" correct?

Yes.

When I am feeling fear with other people and urge to escape, isn't this same as believing that there is separate self?

No. That is feeling fear, nothing to do with self or no self. It's to do with old hidden beliefs and emotional wounds.

So how can I know that some kind of line is crossed when these things still happen?

When you stop thinking that these things should not happen.

There is no way that I could know.
I can know these moments of relief when it is realized that there is no separate self. But these always fade away.

Was there ever a separate self?

It seems that I'm holding this complete end of suffering as a sign that line is crossed.

That is an expectation at play.  You expect eternal bliss happy ever after, when this 'crossing the line' is a new beginning, that's all.

But I also know that it is bullshit. How can something that has been going on for over 40 years disappear so quickly?

Exactly. But then again, what is it at owns the conditioning?

Many teachers really say that it can happen. Maybe it does for some.

You can only experience how it is for you.

Ok, this seems to be just babbling with myself. But I think you said that it's the whole point. Answer your own questions.

Nice.

I feel like Gollum/Smeagol split...
Leave now and never come back!!!!! You know that scene? It's fantastic!

Love it. And just saw hobbit, it's fantastic.

There is no one here to leave and never come back, it was never here to start with. It's imagined.

Hehe...Comment if you want :)
:)

.......................
Hi Ilona, Sorry I haven't been answering. Very busy week in work. At evenings I've been so tired that I did not have energy for anything.

But I think I'm cooked :) Or in other words there is no more I to be cooked. At Monday I was at grocery store holding a bread on my hand.
Thought arose....
"At what point this bread stops being bread and changes it's existence to KJ????" Few seconds later I was one with the whole store... :)"

The feeling of unity fades away but that's how it goes. Nothing left to seek.
Have a nice weekend

Ilona
Wonderful! :) sounds that something has changed. Nothing left to seek is a great confirmation of arrival.

How does if feel when you are among people, is the anxiety still there? Can you write more please, when you can, what is the same and what is different.

Big smile :))
Sending love.

KJ
No. Nothing left to seek means that there never is/was anyone seeking. Who is arriving and to where?? There is no one arriving anywhere, there never was. There is only thought looping by itself and imagining these things. It feels that someone is watching this thinking loop but there isn't anyone. Watcher is also imagined. Experiencer is the experienced. These apparent two create each other. But there never is two.
Ok now the question about anxiety. In thinking, there's images about other people. About many people that I know in many situations. I am always the knower of these images, never "inside" them.  There is a feeling of these people being superior and better. Meaning that there is for example image of them watching me blushing  and being awkward and judging me because of that They are always normal and confident and I am this fearful poor bastard who looks like is losing his mind in any second. And they are watching this very closely. They never say anything to my face but their judgment can be seen in their eyes and behavior. Often my girlfriend is there also and is feeling embarrassed because of my condition. There is huge guilt because I ruin her life like this.
Above thinking pattern IS my so called ego.

Images of these other people that create their opposite, and that is this poor "me" who is nothing like them, but should be. And wants so desperately be normal like they are. The social fear in everyday life happens because of this thinking pattern. This still happens but doesn't have so much power anymore. Sometimes when there is clear seeing and feeling of not-twoness, then the anxiety doesn't arise.

But I hesitate to answer what is the same and what is different, because there is fear that by defining some kind of condition, is then fixating to that. And when it naturally changes, then suffering arises. So I will not give any fixed statements.

Ilona
Hi KJ. Very nice to hear that seeking is ending.

Now let's look at images. Imagine this me in a circle of all these people, that you normally chat with in your head. Let that image stay here for a bit and examine it. What is it made of? What is the worst that can happen to this freshly created image? Does it need to be protected?

Look in the image and at KJ inside it. What can happen to KJ, me, that would be the worst? Now imagine that happening. Then see: Is the image reality? What is happening right now?  What sensations arise in the body?

Just really investigate, how images in the mind are not what is actually happening.

Write what you notice.

When you describe something that is happening right now, this is a point of view, it's never solid. It is always changing. So can you describe what has changed since we started the conversation. Just what feels honest and right. Not asking for more.

Much love.


KJ
Hi Ilona C :)
I'm just checking in. I've been doing your practice and will write later more about that.
Maybe weekend I have more time.

Things are going relatively well...

Ilona
Write more soon KJ!
Much love to you.

KJ
That is so true. Image doesn't need protection. But when there's interaction with people in everyday life, it is not image in the mind that is interacting. It is flesh and blood. And sometimes that bag of flesh and blood is mistaken as separate entity and compared to other imagined separate entities But this is a good practice what you suggested. And I must say that these thought scenarios that I wrote you about in last email don't come so often any more  Usually when I know that I have to go somewhere where is interacting with "others" then this imagining starts.

Recently I've been experiencing this kind of repulsion towards these things (maybe that is too strong word but you get the picture :)
I mean that thought about watching some nonduality video or reading a book is really sickening. This means that also writing to you is really difficult.
I don't know why this is happening but thinking gave two possibilities.

1. Mind is trying to stay in control and is trashing this "seeking enlightenment" as nonsense crap that is going nowhere.

2. Seeking is coming to an end and this is natural stage at this point.

I am also noticing that there is not so much of thinking about this stuff any more  It was for years non-stop thought stream with not much room for anything else.

Also there is more of intense happy emotions and this is nice of course. This is usually like for example when hearing a favourite song, (even in head) The emotion is boosted like 500% and often is difficult not to weep. This is of course really embarrassing because I'm a strong man that should not weep like sissy girls :) hehehe...

The general feeling is that condition is melting away more and more. And this has been more obvious since we started this conversation. Sometimes this is difficult to see because this is happening kind of slowly and only when looking back it is realized that life is much easier now.

Thank you Ilona :)

Ilona
Hi KJ,
Thank you very much for writing to me. As I see some change is here. Need to look for answers in what others say has dropped, that is so nice to hear. Yeah, the shift is subtle, but implications are huge. And you are right saying that only when looked back that difference can be seen.. This resonates here too.

Would you say, you are ready to answer the final questions? Once you answer them and it's all clear I can invite you to join in the LU community :)

KJ
Hi Ilona,

Yes. The seeking is 95% gone. Some days I find it entertaining to read few pages of some spiritual book or maybe watch a video interview of someone, but mostly there's still the repulsion. I just can't hear about it any more you know. If anyone talks about the ocean and the wave I want to scream. Hehehe. I guess this is the famous "leaving the raft behind" point. But yes, I am ready for your final questions. It may take a while before you get answers because of this phase, but I try to answer ASAP.

Thank you so much! This has been painful and entertaining :)

By the way. Are you going to science and nonduality conference in Holland ?

Ilona
Sweet! Here they are :)
No, I'm not going there, are you?

KJ
Hi Ilona,
In this email I will answer to questions 1 & 2

1) Is there a separate 'me' 'I' 'self' , at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

No, there isn't. I self or me appears only in language. In thinking and in speech. Some use this word in pointing to some kind of inside-the-body-entity and others directly to body. Often these go hand in hand. Obviously the process we call body exists, but it is not separate from anything else.

2) in the experience, is there an experiencer? Is it body that experiences or is the body the experienced?

If I have to choose from these two options I would say that number 2 (body is experienced) is closer to truth. But it is not experienced "by anything" In this case various sensations and perceptions are experienced and labeled "body".
Other answers coming later. And yes. I am going to that conference ;-)

Ilona
Cool, thanks for answers. :)

Nice that you are going to the conference!

KJ
Hello,
Before we get to my answer I have to report something. During these past couple of weeks the fear hasn't been very much around any more  From somewhere I've got the courage not to escape it so quickly and when there was accepting of it, it started to diminish. There seems to be allowance of that more and more and it is not so much of a problem any more. Thank you...so much... :)
Ok...and now to answer number 3.
.....................
3) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works.

Illusion of separate self starts early on when language is learned (maybe around age 1-2). Apparent objects are labeled and all of these imagined objects are assumed having separate existence. Bodies and also movement or behaviour of these bodies are labeled. Some behaviour is labeled bad and other good. So things like "KJ is a good boy because he ate all his vegetables" is learned. Comparing the "me-object" to others begins. Psychological self, the ego, is created with this labeling and comparison. Of course all of this is happening automatically and there isn't anyone doing it.
Answers 4,5,6 &7 coming later :)

Ilona
That is great to hear that fear is melting away.. Big hug.

Thank you for answer to number 3.
"Psychological self, the ego, is created with this labeling and comparison. "
So true. And it's so innocent.

Sending love.

KJ
Hello Ilona. Here's rest of my answers...

4) How does it feel to see this?

For me the seeing has been going on for many years and is best described as process, and not any particular event. Anyway there has been these many aha-moments when something is understood or seen.
When it was understood that separate self is an illusion, the anxiety that I had for decades started melting. It was slow process (and is still going on) It can be very subtle but only when looking back you realize the huge change.

But surprisingly when I saw that there is no separation it felt very familiar and ordinary.  No incredible fireworks or anything like that.
Sometimes there was quiet peace and joy and sometimes this seeing happened when I was very agitated.

5 ) How would you describe it to somebody who has never heard about this illusion but is curious about it?

This is hard question and I would say that depends very much what kind of person I'm talking to. If I  would explain this to hardcore seeker then it would be very different than if I would explain it to someone who is not very familiar with the subject. Maybe first I would ask if they can see any border between them and rest of existence.


6) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look? Can you describe the moment when seeing happened?

Maybe it was the realization that there isn't anyone that can be pushed over. The moment was very much like when you understand a joke and it makes you laugh.

7)  Anything to add?

For you Ilona I want to say thank you from the bottom of my heart. Words can't express the gratitude I am feeling and I wish I could be there so I could give you a big hug. Maybe someday who knows :)
Thank you for your patience and love. Life is doing incredible work as you.

-----------

PS: If you want to publish what we've been writing I would appreciate if you use letters KJ instead of name.

This request is not coming any more from fear ;-)

Ilona
Thank you KJ for beautiful answers and yes, I can see a big change in you too. :)
I will put up the blogpost and let you know if my other friends guides have any questions, if none will invite you to join LU groups. There are many friends to meet and share your journey.

It has been my pleasure to assist you.

Much love.


Sunday 24 February 2013

Direct Experience Reveals the Truth for Summer


Summer 
Jan 3

Hi Ilona
Ok…here we go J

Not sure where to start or what you want to know but here’s what’s happening here.

I saw Annie on Saturday which was lovely. We agreed I would have another ‘go’ – my LU name is Summer (we have not spoken again yet)

We started back in the summer and then it stopped when I had visitors etc
As you know this is not a new thing for me and there are many hours spent reading/listening etc to no avail re the discovery of the truth.

Since I saw her at the weekend I have spent time looking at the LU website articles, video clips and listening to podcasts and past meetings which have been very interesting and helpful. I have also been writing things down like crazy.

Today I listened to the pod casts. There is a real desire to see the truth now – whatever it takes

As I looked at the lamp on my table earlier I could see that my view of things has a veil of thoughts in between the body and the object.
It was quite a funny feeling. I could almost see a veil.

I do know that thoughts just arise and that my life happens without a controller – and that I cannot locate an ‘I’ or me but….. there is still something hanging in there.

I thought the fear had gone…but it’s there. I noticed earlier that I feel as if it’s like jumping out of a plane without a parachute into a huge void. When I noticed this thought and enquired whether it was true it seemed ludicrous …so that passed.

After I sent you the message I had a big panic attack (not something I normally have) …. I was terrified, started sweating, my hands were shaking, my heart was racing etc etc.  I took some Rescue Remedy because I needed to calm down before my client arrived but realised I had missed an opportunity to stay with it and look behind the fear. So although I had calmed down I did ask the question and my mind and body took me back to when I was 2 ½ and my brother was born at home. I wasn’t allowed to see my Mum and my Grandmother said I had to be a big girl now and gave me a biscuit. (I promptly ate 2 biscuits and a chocolate bar)….can see how we eat when stressed now!! …plus I have been overly responsible for others since then I guess (1 fear re awakening was …what will they do without me…haha …also ridiculous!) So I guess the ‘separation’ thing was real for me. Nobody very close to me has died but I realised today that although I try to be casual about this…I cannot bear to think of the loss.

I work with my feelings and thoughts all the time (this is my job) and also ‘listen’ to my body for subconscious thoughts. The feeling today was very much a fear of moving forward with nowhere to go.

I have noticed a lot how my mind builds stories…so untrue most of the time! I often talk to my clients about the stories and that thoughts are just thoughts etc etc .

There is still identification with ‘my’ body and face although I did briefly just see a hand and arm today as opposed to immediately identifying it as ‘mine’ Even though I can’t locate an ‘I’ or little ‘me’ I think I still think it must be somewhere!! My rational is that I can’t see my kidneys but they must be there????

In the last few days I drew a funny picture of me desperately hanging onto a big rock called ‘self’ with my toes inches away from the ground which was called Truth…I guess that says it all at the moment!

So Mrs Terminator…please help!
Lots of love Summer xx

Ilona
Jan 4

Morning Summer :)

Lets start from expectations. Write to me what you expect from this conversation, what are you looking for, what do you think will happen and how. Just bring it all up and write it all out.

Also write, how in your experience you experience separation. What is separate from what?


Sending love.


Summer 
Jan 4

Morning!

Thanks for reply

What do I expect from this conversation?
I expect that the truth will finally be seen and the ‘I’ and notion of a separate me will dissolve/disappear
(which is why my hands are shaking and slight nausea plus dryness in throat is felt as I write this…better than yesterday though)

What am I looking for?
I am looking to live life authentically and naturally fully…… it has been noticed how the body just does what it does without a controller but then doubt and restricted flow happens when the I’ pops back. Would like to live in free flow without thoughts veiling life’s richness/fullness
Basically get ‘me’ totally and finally out of the picture

What do I think will happen and how?
Not sure – could slip into it gently and happily (like sliding into a warm, safe pool of water) or could be like many previous ‘first’ experiences (like hastily jumping into icy unknown waters from the Titanic…left feeling very disappointed and frustrated)

How do I experience separation?
I see myself as a package of body and mind (with thoughts, feelings, emotions, traits etc) with a ‘character’ in various roles. Everything is outside ‘me’ and is seen as my relationship to/with it (even though it is sometimes seen there is no one there)

Thanks for your help J
Lots of love xx

Ps will be busy for rest of day now – back later this afternoon


Summer 
Jan 4

Just realised I missed a question

What is separate from what?
The table and computer are separate ‘things’ (but touching) I am separate physically from these things too…although noticed my knees are touching the table. So there’s a funny sense it’s all physically connected through the sense of touch
I feel separate from other people – they have a body, their mind/thoughts and live their own lives – although there is an emotional connection with people either already known or to be met in the future and often there is another ‘connection’ …like compassion or empathy/love etc

xx

Ilona
Jan 5

I expect that the truth will finally be seen and the ‘I’ and notion of a separate me will dissolve/disappear
(which is why my hands are shaking and slight nausea plus dryness in throat is felt as I write this…better than yesterday though)

What would be lost if that was true? What is there to protect? Can you look in this area?

I am looking to live life authentically and naturally fully……

Thing is, you already are. Only a thought that says otherwise.

it has been noticed how the body just does what it does without a controller but then doubt and restricted flow happens when the I’ pops back.

It's not that I pops back, it is not real, it is only a thought about I. Thought, story about what is happening is a story. If you look now at what is happening, is there an I?

Would like to live in free flow without thoughts veiling life’s richness/fullness
Basically get ‘me’ totally and finally out of the picture

Ok, there is an image of "me" Summer.  Is the image reality. Is the image a problem? Is Summer more then an image? And if you look at image of Summer, what exactly makes it up?

Describe what you see.


Not sure – could slip into it gently and happily (like sliding into a warm, safe pool of water) or could be like many previous ‘first’ experiences (like hastily jumping into icy unknown waters from the Titanic…left feeling very disappointed and frustrated)

Yes, I don't know either.  We gonna watch this unfold.  Best is not to have any expectations.

I see myself as a package of body and mind (with thoughts, feelings, emotions, traits etc) with a ‘character’ in various roles.

Yes, but is any of it you? Are you the body?
Are you the mind?
Are you thought, Feeling?
Are you the character?
Is there something to which all the above belong?

Everything is outside ‘me’ and is seen as my relationship to/with it (even though it is sometimes seen there is no one there)

Look though the angle: everything is happening AS this, as this character, body, movement etc.

How does it all look?

Much love.

Summer 
Jan 7

Hi Ilona Thanks for the reply and questions. Here are the answers

What would be lost if that was true? What is there to protect? Can you look in this area?
I have just asked the question and it seems that nothing would be lost and the word peace has come up. I cannot find anything to protect…no answer

Thing is, you already are. Only a thought that says otherwise.
Ok – thanks for the reminder

It's not that I pops back, it is not real, it is only a thought about I. Thought, story about what is happening is a story. If you look now at what is happening, is there an I?

The story of Summer is created after an event when the made up ‘I’ wants to take credit for when things go well or blame itself or try to forget things that go wrong etc. It happens automatically. There is no little me or I controlling what is happening. No I there

Ok, there is an image of "me" Summer.  Is the image reality. Is the image a problem? Is Summer more then an image? And if you look at image of Summer, what exactly makes it up? 

Describe what you see.  

The image is a bunch of thoughts which come and go. The thought came up that if the thoughts were different the image could be changed…like acting or taking on a new role in the story. We seem quite ‘stuck’ with a story that has layers of beliefs, conditioning, habits etc. But it’s layered on nothing! How funny. Just a believed story I guess.
 
Yes, but is any of it you? Are you the body? A bit
Are you the mind? A bit
Are you thought, Feeling? Not so much
Are you the character? It feels like I am
Is there something to which all the above belong?  The story!

Everything is outside ‘me’ and is seen as my relationship to/with it (even though it is sometimes seen there is no one there)

Look though the angle: everything is happening AS this, as this character, body, movement etc.

How does it all look? This feels funny. When I first read this … especially the word AS – there is a relaxation and a slight feeling of expansion


Thanks for your help J
Lots of love xx

Ilona 
Jan 7

Hi Summer,
Thanks for answers. Let's take the next little step.

Let this thought in-
There is no separate self, there never was, there is only one flow and all that happens is it. Separate self never existed, there never was a manager that controls life, it's all one organic spontaneous play.

You can play with this though and take a look, is it true? How would everything look if that was true, how would it be different from how it looks now?

What do you see?

Much love.

Summer 
Jan 7

Hi Ilona   Ok  will get back to you in a while Tx

Ilona 
Jan 10

how are you, Summer?

sending love

Summer 
Jan 10

Hello there – thanks for checking in with me!

I’m good thanks. Have been pondering your last email and will answer your questions then add a few comments:
Re no separate self

Is it true?
Well truthfully – although I cannot see a me/I/self etc and have experiences of ‘no-one’ playing tennis etc the thought that there is this character Summer is still there and I just do not get the no separation thing! Nothing would be different from how it looks now but I feel there would be some kind of recognition of truth or something more in line with what other people who
have gone through the gate speak of. I may lose my ‘friend’ – see below

Have you read Greg Goode’s book where he talks about an opaque witness?

I was doing his tasting experiment and got a slight sense of awareness in a different way – it felt so so close. I seem to get very tiny glimpses of something different – maybe a different perspective – but it goes almost immediately.

I know I’m not supposed to read anything else but I had ordered it a while ago and it does seem to explain what is happening. I can see that in the past when I have ‘noticed’ something it’s like there is another ‘I’ …. So there’s one ‘I’ that is the character, body and mind then there’s another ‘I’ which notices what is happening. He says we personify the witness. It’s a bit like having
a wise friend! Typical that I have 2 ‘I’’s!!! I have started talking to myself more too … is there any hope for me?!

If I lost the ‘wise’ I it would be like losing my best friend….it’s very cosy….and I guess I’m not suffering greatly….but I want to know
the truth.   ahhhhh!

Look forward to your comments – even if you tell me off!
Love and thanks

Ilona
Jan 13

Hi Summer,

Thank you for answer.

You say there are two of I. Can you look closer, how goes this split happen?

There is an exercise in this post, please  take time with it and describe what you learned.

Labels

After this, look at the two I-s and see if the view is still the same.

Much love.  

Summer 
Jan 13

Hi Ilona

Thanks for your persistence!

Ok – so the exercise revealed that the split happens in the mind – just a separation between mind and body. A way for the mind to hang on to the belief in a separate ‘I’ or ‘me’
There are not 2 ‘I’ ‘s – that is just a story in the mind.

Doing the exercise : the experience without the ‘I’ labels feels truer because it simply describes the experience directly without layering the labels and story over the top – clearer seeing of objects in the room, less judgement and more relaxed body

Without the labels there is only this as it is. Life happening.

The body does things automatically without an ‘I’ or ‘me’ – although sometimes a thought appears and then the mind labels it ‘my’ thought and ‘my’ decision to do something.

The problem felt is that I feel I am asleep within the story if that makes sense. So when the body does things automatically it feels more robotic and a habit rather than Life living. There is a disconnection…a half aliveness

Thanks again – much love and gratitude to you

Ilona
Jan 13

"I am asleep" is a story..
Is there an I to be asleep? Is there an I that can wake up?
Is there anything but life happening?
Is there anything but now?

If you change label 'robotic' to label 'spontaneous action' does the view change?

Is there a problem or story about a problem?

Summer 
Jan 13

Hello..

"I am asleep" is a story..
Yes …. But it feels very real….even though it’s a thought and it is seen that thoughts just rise and fall away.
Is there an I to be asleep? Is there an I that can wake up?
There is no I to be asleep or wake up – but the mind still thinks there is – or maybe something else
Is there anything but life happening?
No – can’t see anything else
Is there anything but now?
No – only now and thoughts about future or past

If you change label 'robotic' to label 'spontaneous action' does the view change?
Not until I took a few remedies which lifted the slight depressed feeling
 
Is there a problem or story about a problem?
The problem is there is something I am missing…although I know you’ll say who is there to miss something or have a problem!
Much love.
You too J

Ilona 
Jan 14

"I am asleep" is a story.. 
Yes …. But it feels very real….even though it’s a thought and it is seen that thoughts just rise and fall away

Remember the melon experiment? If feels real till it is seen to be imagined.
The sense of aliveness, being is real. The story about it being asleep is imagined. Can you see that?

There is no I to be asleep or wake up – but the mind still thinks there is – or maybe something else

Ask the mind to check, to look and see for itself, so it knows.

If you change label 'robotic' to label 'spontaneous action' does the view change?
Not until I took a few remedies which lifted the slight depressed feeling

Was taking remedies robotic or spontaneous?

The problem is there is something I am missing…although I know you’ll say who is there to miss something or have a problem!

So which is it- a problem or story about a problem? Take a look.

Summer
Jan 14

Remember the melon experiment? If feels real till it is seen to be imagined. 
The sense of aliveness, being is real. The story about it being asleep is imagined. Can you see that?

Yes it’s just a story the mind has created about the character – mind likes to distract attention into the future and past – away from the present moment. It’s amazing how we believe such wild stories!

Ask the mind to check, to look and see for itself, so it knows.  
Mind says no – there is a body but no I . Checked several times – no

Was taking remedies robotic or spontaneous? 

Spontaneous
The mind makes up a story that the character is robotic because it is another distraction/story?

So which is it- a problem or story about a problem? Take a look. 

In the story it appeared to be a problem – but it’s not a problem – they don’t exist. Problems grow from stories being created around a thought, feeling, mood etc. So the thought could be ‘I am frustrated’….and then a story can easily pile in on top of that….many different variations of story. It’s a matter of perspective in the story. Someone’s problem could be another’s opportunity.

Relaxing and not overthinking helps….i guess J Overthinking causes more stories … relaxing is a story about relaxing
Such patience – thank you xx

Ilona
Jan 14

Sweet, the story of relaxing is letting mind to be at ease. Over thinking, talking to all these imagined people, creating imaginary situations and images drains the energy. It's ok to let mind to rest time to time.  It deserves it.

So if it's clear that I is not real, and problems are stories about stories labeled 'problem' take a look, if what is going on in the head affects what is happening in reality.
Do thoughts affect what is happening right now?
In this moment, describe what is experienced.

Much love.

Summer
Jan 14

The body needs to do more – doing T’ai Chi Chih practise which does not need the mind and doing a freestyle trance dance workshop on Saturday – so looking forward to that. Would be good to play some tennis too when weather ok.

So if it's clear that I is not real, and problems are stories about stories labelled 'problem' take a look, if what is going on in the head affects what is happening in reality. 

Do thoughts affect what is happening right now? No not really – what happens happens ,,, the thoughts layer over what is happening.
I think I said it before – so right now  typing is happening then the thought ‘ I am typing’  may come – to claim doership or maybe ownership of the fingers typing??? A new story could be created
In this moment, describe what is experienced.
Looking at the screen …then down at fingers to check typing. No previous thoughts about what is going to be typed. Fingers just typing. Pain in head felt (have had headache on and off for a month – overthinking!). Sitting on chair – feet on ground.

The thought – what is real? Ringing noise in ears/head .. hot head, tiredness. Noises heard
Thought arises – well who am I then?
Much love.
Mucho love to you

Ilona
Jan 14

Who am I?
Is there a who?
Is there an I?

If you take both off what is left?
Does that need an identification?

Summer
Jan 14

Who am I? 
Is there a who? 
Is there an I?
Ok…no
If you take both off what is left? am
Does that need an identification? am is a verb meaning ‘to be’…..to be or not to be!

Ilona
Jan 14

Is there a choice?
Can being be switched on or off?

:)

Summer
Jan 14

Is there a choice?  No            ( You've not read Shakespeare then….   To be or not to be that is the question….etc etc     ie whether to live or die!)
Can being be switched on or off? No

:)

Ilona
Jan 15

Of course I read Shakespeare! I want you to look at his question and answer. Is there a choice- to live or to die? Can you choose not to be? :) you say no. Great.

What do you see that you are in control of? Make a list.
What do you see that you own? Make another list.
Looking forward to hear from you.

Summer
Jan 15

Well – I am not in control of anything. Everything just seems to happen. Even if there are ‘plans’ to do something or lists of things to do – it all still just happens – often when ‘I’ don’t think it will.
Also things change all the time. I am certainly not in control of any people or the cat! I may think I am in control of my body for instance…so the thought I must clean my teeth arises so it could be
thought that I have chosen to clean my teeth – but I haven’t! Events can be postponed slightly – like going to the loo – but eventually it just happens. This is funny…the I has gone very quiet. Like it is just about to say ‘I could go to the toilet’ … but doesn't ….because maybe it is known that whatever happens just happens without the i.
 
It only feels like I own things if I ran out of money and wanted to sell something – then it would be mine! Things come and go…I do not own people or the cat

Looking forward to hear from you. You too
Much love.  Thanks J No headache today

Summer
Jan 15

Just to say …very gentle day …and a lot less thinking going on here…peaceful….quickly noticing where a thought could be believed…and then it goes…resting J  Lots of love


Summer
Jan 16

Hi  No I , noticing story all the time, mind/thoughts quieter.  Watched all Lisa’s YouTube  stuff whilst ironing,,then Nathan Gill.
Not ‘known’ unshakably like Lisa/other people in book ….any comments?
Annie coming today.
Lots of love x

Ilona
Jan 17

Hi Summer!

Nice to hear from you :) and say hello to Annie.

How would you answer this question:
What is the I?
Is there a separate self? Was there ever?

Just answer what feels true 100%.
How do you feel about your answer?

Sending love.

Summer
Jan 18

Hi Ilona!

Nice to hear from you :) and say hello to Annie.
Nice to hear from you too…. We had a lovely time – I did a Reiki 2 attunement for her and she the heart opening thing with me!

How would you answer this question: 
What is the I?
The I does not exist as a separate entity/thing. It is used in language for communicating. The concept of I evolves as the mind labels things and creates stories and layers over seeing, hearing, feeling, tasting etc…and thoughts and beliefs are believed by an imaginary I.

Is there a separate self?
No

Was there ever?
No – although it was previously believed by the mind

Just answer what feels true 100%.
Yes

How do you feel about your answer?
Ok   It’s true and thoughts/mind pretty quiet and relaxed. Is that it? Thought something else might happen….

................
I read Lisa’s latest blog which I found useful and explains my last reply to you.

It says:    If there is deep experiencing of oneness and the experiential and recognised,  no matter how brief, lack of personal self, then that’s it.

…so oneness experiencing life as it is with many fewer thoughts (that kind of happened on Tuesday)

So it’s like there are 2 realizations – 1 no self,  2 oneness

It feels like it’s  right on the edge of tipping or (sliding gently) re the realizations here – the glimpses of oneness have been so brief (like a second..or half!) and there is still a slight me/my story
going on if there is honesty.

So today there will be more asking, looking and seeing  re oneness and I

(Please correct me if my understanding is wrong!)

Lots of love

Ilona
Jan 20

It's the same realisation, when it's seen that separation is just a thought about separation, all is seen as oneness. No separate individual parts, all is one movement of life happening.

Is there anything separate from the whole? Was there ever anything but oneness?

Much love.

Summer
Jan 20

It's the same realisation, when it's seen that separation is just a thought about separation, all is seen as oneness. No separate individual parts, all is one movement of life happening.  
Oh yes! Of course

Is there anything separate from the whole?  No (just thoughts about it) Was there ever anything but oneness? No (just the story of separateness)

Much love.

Ilona
Jan 20

So can you say, that the shift has happened and illusion if separation has been seen through?
How does it feel to answer as you answer?

Summer
Jan 20

So can you say, that the shift has happened and illusion if separation has been seen through? No

How does it feel to answer as you answer?  Sad…so close

Ilona
Jan 20

It's ok, Summer, honesty here is most important.
So what is it in the way of seeing ? Can you pin point what exactly is obstructing the clarity?
Please write more, not a few words, but few paragraphs, so I can see where your thinking is going.

Big hug.

Summer
Jan 21

Yes – because I could easily re-quote all the stuff I have read – but that’s pointless

Ok- so what is in the way of seeing and is obscuring the clarity?

Waiting for something to happen? Thoughts about how it will be once it is seen. Confusion re what has been read and the experience here – maybe comparison.

That all seems silly because I know it already is as it is…nothing will change. There is a thought that something a bit more may happen – more of a shift – a connection or recognizing – something loving
After the initial huge desire to see the truth…things have gone a bit ‘quiet’. There is no desire to see the truth to escape from suffering etc…the story is quite bearable!

There is a slight thought of being ‘unworthy’ – probably a hangover from Christian teaching as a child. Maybe a thought of not liking change…although straight away the thought
that there is no change happening came up.

Possibly  a fear of losing control? – although immediately the thought comes up that this is not real because there is no one to lose control …then a voice says ‘There might be’!

I think there is still a belief in the character/me……oh I don’t know!......A belief that I won’t know until the beginning of February because it says that in my astrological chart
maybe.

Does that give you any clues? It will all change later or tomorrow anyway. Although I do think the mind is slowing up and at the same time story- telling and labelling is noticed quickly.

Would like to get it done – not much looking at other sites/books etc. Just your posts…did read a bit of Leo Harding last night…but he’s on the same track as LU
Thank you so,  so much for your patience and help
Love Tx

Ilona
Jan 21

Yes, enough clues.
You say that you are waiting for something to happen- nothing will happen! There is no Big Bang and no angel choir going to appear, lol. This is it, the seeking drops as belief in separation drops. Some have a big experience, but that is not necessary, a drop of belief is just that, you may not even notice when it happened. No desire to escape- here you go! You are always at home, no need to try to find it. It's always here now. :)

Sometimes mind resist that this is that simple and wants some confirmation, special mystical experience, but... Any time time you pay attention, the confirmation is always here, not hidden, obvious and available any moment.

How does it feel to hear this?

Much love.

Summer
Jan 21

It sounds fine! When my belief in re-incarnation, past lives, ghosts, angels and all kind of stuff dropped away it just stopped…disappeared…and has no meaning or influence in my story at all.
I respect other people’s views (it just makes me laugh that we believe so much rubbish…and people write books and run courses and all sorts of things – making lots of money in some cases…mainly feeding off our fears!)…but it can feel a bit strange when someone has such a strong belief. Still that’s an interesting story I guess.

So – I’m sure it’s all working out just fine … and no doubt I will go ‘Doh’ when the mind gives up the search and need for something special to happen J Thanks again – much love

Ilona
Jan 23

:) yeah, I used to believe in angels too.. Kind of.
Is the mind still in searching mode?

Much love.

Summer
Jan 23

Morning – lovely to hear from you

:) yeah, I used to believe in angels too.. Kind of.  I wasn't heavily into them….it’s common for Reiki teachers – especially if they’re scared!

Is the mind still in searching mode? Now you ask… No  Not at all.   Peaceful!

Ilona
Jan 31

Hi Summer, how is it going? Is that searching habit still here or is it gone? Are there any questions left or all is clear?

Sending a hug.

Summer
Jan 31

Hi Ilona
Have been thinking about you. I think the searching habit is pretty much gone. No questions.
It was funny – I have been working with a client with remedies recently and she said that when things are in balance (the whole point of taking them) …there is ‘nothing’…she said it felt strange but very peaceful…I said no worries –that’s it! She knows nothing about the gate, advaita, non-duality etc
It’s been a busy week and a few stressy things but I have realised how the story builds…but it all works out ok.
So – nothing amazing but fine.
Looking at your posts – all helpful etc
Hugs to you xx

Summer
Feb 2

Hiya  Just to say Happy Birthday …. and I guess it’s done. Just think I have been looking for something that isn't there (just in case- haha) J
Now I know your birth date it’s all clear  - you just want everyone to be happy and not believe what they are told by others!!
Big hugs and lots of love and thanks
Hope to see you soon xxxx

Ilona
Feb 2

Thank you dear Summer!

It's great to hear that that looking for something is not here is dropped. :)) so much joy for you <3

Yeah, you summed it all spot on- I want all to be happy and not believe in anything that does not come from inner knowing :)
I see you love astrology. I find it fascinating. It is interesting to see how position of planets influence the character.

Much love to you!

Oh, if you are ready for the final questions, let me know, once answered I can invite you to unleashed group so you can meet lots more friends. :))

Big hugz..

Summer
Feb 2

Hiya  Hope you've had a good birthday?
I do find astrology fascinating. When I first saw a really good astrologer when I was 28 it was like taking to a psychiatrist who already knew me!
I have checked your dates/time etc….so the Ilona character has a double dose of what I already said…plus the emotions come from another place…

We had my husbands’ family visiting today and we were talking about therapy – my brother-in-law is training to be a psychotherapist and his wife was seeing a counsellor (!!)..
Without the insight I have discovered I have no idea how therapists help people…they are just fishing in the dark with no bait!
Ok – so send me the final questions please
Big  big  hugz to you too  xx

Ilona
Feb 4

I know what you mean! I had a reading by astrologer and was profoundly surprised how accurate some character traits were described. It's an art, me thinks.

We had my husbands’ family visiting today and we were talking about therapy – my brother-in-law is training to be a psychotherapist and his wife was seeing a counsellor (!!)..
Without the insight I have discovered I have no idea how therapists help people…they are just fishing in the dark with no bait!

Yeah, pretty much. Trying to fix what is not broken.

Summer
Feb 4

Hi Ilona
Here are the final question answers …..

1)      There is no separate ‘me’ ‘I’  ‘self’ anywhere at all. It cannot be located and was never there. It was previously assumed that there was a little me – just not questioned before.

2)      There is no separate experiencer – the body is experienced

3)      The illusion of the separate self begins when we are small children with the use of language, which we learn. We are given a name and we are told many things which we believe without question. As thoughts arise we start to apply labels and concepts, which get more involved as we grow up. The idea of a subject and object evolves which creates the illusion of a separate ‘me’. The story of ‘me’ continues as thoughts arise and the brain processes data and information based on what we believe to be true.

4)      When the illusion is seen it can feel many things – here it feels relaxing, vast spaciousness and yet intimacy, funny, obvious, freeing. There is no ‘me’ running the show and the more that is known the easier life is – just flowing

5)      The illusion of a separate ‘me’ is not easy to see because we deeply believe what we are told and there is great fear and resistance to see what is really going on. It is actually very simple and obvious but the mind wants to make it bigger and more ‘special’ …. Mainly to stop the truth from being seen – it creates another story. It also cannot be experienced by the mind….it just is.

If someone is curious about it they already have a sense of it. There are many books, satsangs  etc out there but they often distract from really seeing, so I would just say  ‘look’ and only your direct experience will reveal the truth.

6)      The last bit that pushed me over, or made me look was reading Randall Friends book and seeing a quote from Bob Anderson (never read his books) He was talking about intelligent knowing……

‘That is the activity of knowing – intelligence energy. Knowing is an activity – of something that is going on in the immediacy of the moment. Any activity is a movement of energy. Not the content of knowing, I know this or I know that, that is all acquired, all conceptualised, all word stuff. The basic activity of knowing. You are not knowing a moment ago. You are not knowing a moment in the future either. It is going on in the immediacy of the moment, so it’s an activity – something is happening now. It is this energy of life force or whatever label you want to put on it. It is functioning in the immediacy of the moment. That is what you are.’             So it is seen that the true nature is no-thing…and everything arises in that….so there is no separation

Anything to add…..well just that there is great gratitude for finally finding you Ilona …. For your sincere desire for suffering to end by using such a simple thing….and sticking to it. The feeling is very much ‘well is that it’  alongside ‘wow’    I think that this has been ‘known’ for a long time and having discovered what I was not … it was just nice to be reminded what I am – to now allow all to be revealed however that may be. Many thanks and love x

Ilona
Feb 22

beautiful answers,  :) thank you!
big smile.

could i put this on the blog? i can use any name you like. other guides may have a question or two, or if not, i can invite you to Fb groups.

have a gorgeous day,
much love.


Summer
Feb 22

Hiya
You are welcome to put this on the blog…use my LU name –Summer – if you like
Thanks for support – just perfect J

Hope to see you on 16th March and/or 13th April in Worthing
Have a great day toooooooooooo xxxxx




Wednesday 20 February 2013

Expectations



           Such a lovely day on the seaside... Sunshine, light breeze, sounds of sea, seaguls and distant traffic. It's delicious to sit on a bench in the sunshine and just be. This moment is complete, no where to rush, nothing to plan, there is peace and sense of deep joy of being alive, heart is wide open, streaming love.

Before seeing that "my self" was imagined I had glimpses into this gorgeousness of just being, but they were fleeting and short, mind would start wandering and get lost in images of future. Now I can sit and just be, without getting sucked in to the storyland.

This peace and delight is underneath all thinking, available any time. But to get here one needs to leave all thinking, problems, expectations just the same way as we leave shoes entering our house. You may say that it's easier said then done and of course, you are right. Because even though mind is seeking peace, it threatens it. As if that would mean an end to the stream of thoughts, the death of the narrator.

The biggest obstacle for seeing this moment AS IT IS are expectations. The shoulds and shouldn'ts, wants and don't wants, musts, needs and other weeds. These thoughts have a pull and once they arrive they have power to drag one in to a story and -puff- the peace is lost.

Mind creates expectations as this is what it's used to do. It's a habit, everyone has expectations, plans for the future and ideals to seek. If you don't have goals and expectations, there must be something wrong with you, right? It's so engrained in our heads, that its not even possible to raise this question- do we need expectations at all? In daily ordinary activities, in practical sense, are expectations useful?

What would it be like to live without expectations, have you wandered? Well, first thing I notice there is no more tension and constant need to get somewhere. The rush is gone, thoughts about time no longer feels like pressure. All that needs to be done gets done at the right time, no later or earlier. With that all thoughts about what someone else will think, if I do not deliver, are gone too. There is no more judgement and excuses, that used to run the show in this mind. Mind no longer creates future scenarios where it looks for solutions to imagined problems, what ifs. It doesn't even go there, as this exercise does not add to experience, only takes focus into the dreamland and is seen as futile.

I used to have nightmares: in my dreams I would see people sitting and waiting for me to do something they expect and me rushing to do what they ask and dreading that there is not enough time... If I can not meet their expectations (which are not even mine) then there comes a heavy feeling of guilt.. I'm not enough, I should be different, I need to try harder, I must improve my-self... Aaaaa, where is escape?! Where is the Exit sigh??

All house of suffering is built of unfulfilled expectations.

All search for freedom is built on expectations, that once we get "there", life is going to be so light and easy, so rosy and blissful, that we will be happy forever and ever. Seeking is based on expectations to find peace, by trying to fix something that is not as it should be. Resistance stops as expectations drop and openness is noticed. Seeking and expectations are one process driven by the belief, that something needs to happen on order to be happy now. One can live in a paradise and not notice that, if mind is constantly dreaming about something else.

The only thing that needs to happen is spring cleaning of the head from all those precious expectations. It's really simple- notice them as they arise, see how they hold an image of how it should be in contrast with HOW IT IS. See where they come from- your mum, your family, partner, kids, boss, community, bank manager... Are these expectations really yours? Do you expect to meet these expectations? What happens if you don't?

Of course the tension that is felt is here because of fear, that expectations won't be met. The feelings of sadness, regret, shame, guilt, blame, anger, desperation, hopelessness, wish to die are all close friends of expectations. With letting go of wants, shoulds and shouldn'ts triggers are released too. No more expectations, no more fear that they won't be met, no more resistance to what is here now.

The mother of all expectations is hope. It's a glorified expectation, that tomorrow will be better then today. It's a thought about future that gives birth to expectations. Hope is something that humans have. And yes, it's very nice to see when in stories and movies hopes come true and there is happy ending. But hope is the mother of fools, there is a saying in Lithuania. The more you hope, the less you see what is here now, that can be appreciated right this moment. And it's not really about practising appreciation, but opening the door for it to flow freely. Aaa, it feels so good just to be, the smile breaks and joy tickles- that feeling.

Expectations are like clouds that cover the sunshine of living this moment fully.

If you expect, that unwanted emotions should no longer be felt, then it's saying NO to these feelings when they come up and saying no to experiencing them fully. It's all part of life and freedom to live fully, to experience whatever presents itself without thinking that it should be different - is priceless. Freedom to experience, freedom to feel, to express, to love is already here. Just look behind the curtain of expectations. Well if you expect to see just the happy side, that too is a prison.


The easy steps to drop expectations:

1. Write all of them down.
What do you expect from......?
What you don't expect from........?
What do you want from.....?
What you don't want from......?

2. Dig deeper, find the hidden expectations and write them down too. Open up with whole honesty.

3. Read what you wrote and let this sink in. Let it all be OK. Acknowledge that these expectations are running in the system.

4. Take a look in your experience right now, is anything really missing?

5. Realise that nothing is ever happening the way you imagine it would, that life goes on regardless of how you expect it to go. Check if you have control over what is happening and when.

6. See if you need all those expectations or if its OK to let them all go. Take a closer look, if expectations are useful. See if anything would be lost if those expectations would drop. Write all that comes up. When you write, mind focuses and is forced to look closer.


And if this does not have an expected effect, you may bring your precious expectations to the forum and work with someone through them until there is shiny clarity.


Just like weeds in the garden, the sneaky expectations may come back. Don't let them ruin the show. :)