My Worst Nightmare... Is Not a Nightmare!

Helen 
Jan 29

Dear Ilona,
I have just read the Gateless Gatecrashers, and was wondering if you had time and volition to guide me through the gate. I can reply to emails at least once a day over the next three weeks, then a little more intermittently after that for a month. Then more regularly again.

Over the past 5 years I have taken a few Goenka Vipassana retreats, and over the past year I have been trying self inquiry, who/what is aware, can the perceiver be perceived etc etc but feel like I am hitting a brick wall.

I feel like biting the bullet so to speak...all I want is the TRUTH, because I feel like I am living a lie! And I think I need someone who has stepped through to help.

When I read over what I had written at the suggestion on your site: "There is no self at all in Reality, no ME that lives my life" I have a mixture of reactions. Anger, resistance, "It can't be true!" I feel resistance in that the 'me' says there HAS to be a witness or an awarer. Knot of fear felt in stomach, dread, heaviness, fear of non existence AND fear of standing out, more separation-isolation. There is also sometimes relief, peacefulness, impatience for liberation to happen and nothingness.

Apart from feeling the fear in the body I can't find anything at all behind the fear, nothingness.

What do I expect from liberation?
Well, mostly the TRUTH, whatever that may be.
To be honest, I am also expecting some sense of heightened detachment, and these small pangs of-"I hope to be SPECIAL"also arise.
I think a liberated person is a pretty normal human living out its life but I also have this rigid belief that a liberated person does not act in a very destructive violent way towards other life forms e.g. would not go on murderous rampages.

I feel quite open for liberation to be what it is, I don't feel like I have any control over what it is like, because I don't feel like I am in much control over my life anyway, so I accept what comes. Although I have had those 'peak' "spiritual" experiences many have had (bliss, at one with everything dissolved in love, blah blah) I still don't feel like they were THE truth.

But I have this expectation of an AHA moment, when it occurs, a subtle shift somehow
What do I not want 'liberation' to be like? Misery. Painful. Anti climax.Disappointment. A part of me is expecting something, anything...probably secretly extra-ordinary. But more of me wants the truth and nothing else, at any cost whatever wrapping the truth comes in.

Thank you so much for your time in reading my email Ilona, and if it is not possible to give guidance to me currently could you please point me in the direction of a guide who is able?
In Gratitude,
Helen

Ilona
Jan 29

Hi Helen.

H: I feel like biting the bullet so to speak...all I want is the TRUTH, because I feel like I am living a lie! And I think I need someone who has stepped through to help.

I: I know the feeling. And I will help you to get past that wall. But it is you that is doing the work, I'm here to hold focus and guide you, so to speak.


H: When I read over what I had written at the suggestion on your site: "There is no self at all in Reality, no ME that lives my life" I have a mixture of reactions. Anger, resistance, "It can't be true!"

I: Question here, have you ever considering checking if it's true? If not, how do you know it is true or not?

H: I feel resistance in that the 'me' says there HAS to be a witness or an awarer.

I: What would be lost if that was true- there is no witnesser, no awarer, just witnessing happening and awaring of all that is showing up?

H: Knot of fear felt in stomach, dread, heaviness, fear of non existence AND fear of standing out, more separation-isolation. There is also sometimes relief, peacefulness, impatience for liberation to happen and nothingness.

I: Fear of non existence, this is a big one.  But look at this- if there is no I, then there is nothing that disappears. It's just a drop of belief.  Nothing dies, nothing melts away or ends. The fear is here pointing the way to something that hasn't been explored. So look what it is that fear is protecting.


H: Apart from feeling the fear in the body I can't find anything at all behind the fear, nothingness.

I: Nice. So is that fear happening TO you? Is is something there that owns that fear?



H: What do I expect from liberation?
Well, mostly the TRUTH, whatever that may be.

I: There is no separate entity I, me, self. It's simple.  The sooner you look, the sooner all falls into place.  It can not be taught, learned, but noticed.


H: To be honest, I am also expecting some sense of heightened detachment, and these small pangs of-"I hope to be SPECIAL"also arise.

I: Are you special? In which way?

H: I think a liberated person is a pretty normal human living out its life but I also have this rigid belief that a liberated person does not act in a very destructive violent way towards other life forms e.g. would not go on murderous rampages.

I: Seeing through illusion does not change the character. If person was murderous, who knows what happens, lol. Nothing changes if you put pink glasses on, just the colour of the view, right? So this character, are you the driver? Are you the owner? Are you directing it's play?

H: I feel quite open for liberation to be what it is, I don't feel like I have any control over what it is like, because I don't feel like I am in much control over my life anyway, so I accept what comes. Although I have had those 'peak' "spiritual" experiences many have had (bliss, at one with everything dissolved in love, blah blah) I still don't feel like they were THE truth.

I: Truth is not in experiences. They all come and go, impermanent. This seeing is a shift in focus, a shift in perception, not an experience. It may very subtle and unnoticeable. It's pretty much like believing in Santa and fairy tale characters and then recognising that it's work of imagination.


H: But I have this expectation of an AHA moment, when it occurs, a subtle shift somehow
What do I not want 'liberation' to be like? Misery. Painful. Anti climax.Disappointment. A part of me is expecting something, anything...probably secretly extra-ordinary. But more of me wants the truth and nothing else, at any cost whatever wrapping the truth comes in.

I: The way it happens for you it's unique, so enjoy the ride and forget about this aha moment, some have it some not. Some have many on the way and which one was the one, wasn't really noticed.
So leave these expectations behind. They are only in the way.


Helen Burt
Jan 30 

Dear Ilona,
Thank you so much for replying to me!

I believe in theory that there is no self, and it is true that I cannot find an 'I' anywhere at all, but seem stuck in 'realising' it. I don't think I have been truly willing to LOOK in the past. No 'I' has been found at all today, and sometimes the 'looking for an I' is not there either. Just nothingness.
I am considering if it is true, that there is no self. I cannot locate the self. There is just complete unknowing!

If it is true that there is no witnesser or awarer then, (after the panic arose "WHAT, NO ME???") I feel nothing. Moments of laughter. If it never existed in the first place, no nothing would be lost at all.

Fear of non existence arose very strongly again when I saw your reply, immediate thought "no, I don't want to die!" "I can't look!" "This is the end!"
But looking at the fear, there is nothing there behind it.

The fear just happens, it coincides with the thoughts of fear of death. Then it goes away again. The fear doesn't belong to anything at all. It is protecting the fact that there is nothing. There is nothing to protect.

Am I special? No, I can't find any special-ness. There is no 'I' that I can even find that is special.

Am I directing the play? No, I can't find the director of the play anywhere. Fear of losing control, of not having control when I read that I cannot find the director of the play. The thought of life unoccupied, no control makes fear arise again.

Thank you for your feedback,
Helen

Ilona 
Jan 31 

Very nice.

Let's look deeper at the control thingy..

Try this-
Lift your left arm above the head. Do it now before reading further. Watch closely how it happens.

---(If you are reading this now you may do that too)---
......................

Did it happen? Was you controlling that happening? Did action happen first or thoughts that claimed the action? How did this happen, could it been a different response? Is there a free will?


Try this a few times through the day and investigate, what is control, is there a controller that is in charge of what is perceived, what is appearing?

Write what you find out. :)
Much love.


Helen Burt
Feb 1 

Dear Ilona,
The left arm lifted by itself, so the action happened first.There was no one controlling the arm lifting. The response could not have been different because no choice was involved. I cannot find an 'I' that controls or makes choices.There has been no choice over the actions or thoughts of the day, therefore, there is no free will.
Throughout the day actions and sensations have been happening BEFORE the 'I' claims it.

Stomach rumbles, then "I am hungry"
Back hurts, then "My back is sore"
Bladder full, then "I need to go to the toilet"
Tiredness, achy sensations "I am tired"
Many many many actions just happening...
Hands brushing hair.
Eyebrow itched.
Face is rubbed.
Something causes sadness, tears running, crying happening.
Walk to drink water. Drink water. No one is controlling this!
After observing all day, there is no 'I' that controls actions or thoughts. All day there has been no controller, life has been just happening.

The 'I' comes in to claim the action, after the action has begun to occur.
Sometimes a thought to do something will arise, ("I want to paint on canvas") then the action is carried out but still, there is no self that thought the thought. The thought...just appeared, out of nowhere, and the body followed the thought, and carried out the action.
Even conversation is just happening! Questions are asked of someone else around me. Responses to other questions. They come out of nowhere. I can't find the self that asked the question, or that responded.

So...there is NO control over what is perceived and what is appearing as reality, thoughts, actions, sensations. :)

Thank you!
In Gratitude and Love Helen

Ilona
Feb 4 

:) very nice answer.
How about thinker, is there a thinker of thoughts or thoughts happen by themselves? Are you in control of thinking?
Is I a thought or thinker of thoughts?

What do you notice?

Much love.


Helen 
Feb 6 

Dear Ilona,
I am noticing that there is NO thinker of thoughts.

Thoughts are happening by themselves all day, neutral thoughts and thoughts paired with emotion. All types of thought come into existence, and continue to reel off by themselves without a thinker.

There is no one in control of these thoughts. There is no thinker...there is absolutely no thinker of thoughts at any point :)
The 'I' that comes in to claim to 'think' many of these thoughts that arise throughout the day is itself just a persistently recurring thought.

The 'I' thought is making it appear that SOMETHING is in control but in reality it is nothing at all...it comes and goes.
So nothing is in control of thinking.
I am not in control of thinking...and it is becoming more apparent that 'I' don't exist.

'I' is merely a habitual thought. There is no substance, or any concrete evidence to support the 'I'.
Everything points to the 'I' as being...just a thought! :)

Thank you,
Love Helen

Ilona 
Feb 6 

Yes, exactly. I is a thought, not a thinker and not a doer.

Now turn around the focus from I, thought pointing to separate entity, to totality of all that is here, seen, experienced, heard, sensed etc. is anything missing? Anything that is not complete? Anything that does not run on automatic?

If there were no nouns in language, would experiencing change, would description be incomplete?


Sending love.


Helen 
Feb 7

Dear Ilona,
In the totality of all that is experienced, nothing is missing at all. Now it seems impossible and amusing that anything could ever be missing. All day, nothing experienced in this totality is incomplete, it is always complete.
Things are happening, seen, heard, smelt, touched, tasted... reality just...IS. The life around that is perceived is...living itself out, and everything is happening it seems...spontaneously! Nothing has appeared as not running automatically.

If there were no nouns, this experience of reality would remain the same, as it is-complete. Things always will be as they are, whether they have labels or not.
The description of reality would be incomplete without nouns, as no labelling could occur. What is perceived could not be dissected into parts.

Thank you,
Love Helen

Ilona 
Feb 7 

Beautiful, Helen. :) what you wrote resonates here too..

Can you say that shift has happened? Or is it still happening?
Would you say, it's time for final questions?

Sending love.


Helen 
Feb 8

Dear Ilona,
I do think the shift is still happening... but then again, there are thoughts appearing that are 'expecting' something MORE that says 'IT hasn't happened yet'.
...like somehow the mind is 'waiting' for the no-I to suddenly realize itself...! Or waiting for some mental epiphany.
...but...there is no I to realise that it doesn't exist!
And the 'I' thought that keeps appearing throughout the day can never be believed to be real again.
Something is definitely different, but life is still...exactly the same.
It is very subtle.
The same emotions, the same thoughts, reactions, the same 'I' thoughts...but they all have less weight.
...life is seen from a slightly shifted perspective but the shift to where, I have no idea!!! :)
I feel like the 'I'-ness is slowly dissolving...

Thank you :)
Love Helen

Ilona
Feb 8

Nice! Well, the shift is subtle, true, but it's very deep.

It's a no step journey- from being at home and looking for home to being at home and knowing that :)

Can you say, that it is clear that separate self is illusion? If so, are you ready to answer final questions?

Sending love.


Helen 
Feb 8 

Dear Ilona,
It is very clear that the 'I' thought is not a separate entity (and is not ME) that exists in the body and that it is just a thought.
There are other separate bodies with personalities around this body. There is a sense of separation from them. When there is awareness of other people, occasionally the mind says: "you haven't got it! you haven't got it! you are supposed to feel amazing ONE-NESS with other beings! There is still separation!"
Just a thought. :)

At the moment, at times the mind is creating a violent reaction to the fact that the self doesn't exist! It is trawling up any horror story in the future to have a panic tantrum about, to create itself!!! :)
But it is still seen that this is just thoughts too, and that there is no real self behind these thoughts.
It is almost like a death rattle, or the minds frantic, desperate ploy to get belief in its existence again!

'Helen' talks, she has conversations with people, has ideas and opinions but there is no belief that I AM HELEN any more. It is like the story of 'The emperors new clothes'
and...the game of life must keep playing :)

I am non existent! 'Helen' is nothing, a story of a 'life'.

...ready to answer final questions... :)

Thank you!!!
Love Helen

Ilona
Feb 10 

Sweet! Here they are :)
Please answer in full, when ready.

Much love.


Helen 
Feb 11 

Dear Ilona,
Thank you for the questions! I have tried to answer with what felt right...


1) Is there a separate 'me' 'I' 'self' , at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?
The Self really IS like Santa! If someone were to tell me that Santa really did exist and try to convince me, there is NO way I could ever believe them. I just cannot believe that 'I' exist in the same manner!
Likewise, if someone were to say "you do not exist" the fear and resistance that flooded my body in response when I first wrote that statement down, would not occur, because I know it is true-I don't exist!
The character of 'Helen' body plus thoughts lives without any doer or controller.
There is no separate 'I' at all anywhere. There is a body with sensations, there are thoughts. There is awareness. None of it is 'I'

There never was a separate ME. There was only ever belief in a separate me.
There is always a little smile at the moment, when the possibility of finding a separate 'I' is entertained. Impossible! What a funny absurd thought.

 2) in the experience, is there an experiencer? Is it body that experiences or is the body the experienced?
There is no experiencer. It can appear that way but there is no experiencer. Only impersonal life in the moment.

This question is the only one I think I have tripped up on...took me a while to figure it out!
The body experiences the world, tasting, hearing, smelling, seeing, touching because that is its function. The body can't be experienced because there is nothing TO experience it. You could say the body is the instrument through which life is experienced, by NOTHING!
There is no 'I' to control the body. There is no individual experiencer, even though there is an individual body.


3) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works.
The illusion of separate self starts when the mind begins to think that the word 'I' refers to an illusionary separate self located in the body. Every 'I' thought reinforces this illusion of separate self.
I think this must start very young. Maybe what they call the 'terrible twos' is when the 'I' illusion really starts to crystallize.

This 'I' is reinforced by other humans around who are also living under the illusion that there is a separate self existing inside them also. First parents, then siblings, friends, school etc all of society. Once you're under the illusion that's it, this world we live in-everything reinforces the 'I'.
It is believed that there is a separate 'I' inside the body, controlling the life that is happening. The 'I' claims responsibility at any opportunity for actions and thoughts.

There is no separate 'I'
There is only the recurring thought 'I'
'I am doing this'
'I forgot that'
'I am scared'
'I love you'
That, when believed in-creates the illusion of a separate 'I' inside the body.

4) How does it feel to see this?
What a relief! I don't exist! My worst nightmare is...not a nightmare! It is funny! And I always never existed!
There is a spaciousness, it is hard to describe in words but that is how I would put it. A 'surrendering' into the moment, as it comes, but there is no one to surrender. I could say acceptance too but there is no one here to accept either.

The 'I' that was seeking so desperately for the truth is not there.

Awareness is not personal anymore, there is no 'awarer'. 'I' cannot even attach to awareness. Awareness or aliveness is a better way to say it. Aliveness is here and it is not personal. Nothing owns it.
The nothingness was always here, but the 'I' thoughts were in the way! It seems like something has flipped around to the other side or the tables have turned, reality is weighing in on NOTHINGNESS's favour.

Life is the same but there is a biggerness of the nothing, and a smallerness to the thoughts.
Thought has nothing to stick to. I understand what I read when people say thought and 'I'ness becomes less sticky! Thought has nothing to stick to. It just slips like water off a ducks back.
I couldn't believe in 'I' even if I tried!

Before the loss of identification with the 'I' happened, there was a persistent underlying unease or 'tightness' almost like an avoidance of something. That has gone.

There is no urgency, less thoughts of insecurity. Where is the I that is insecure? It isn't!!! :) There is no I that wants life to change in any monumental way. The 'I' still has niggles and annoyances, the personality is still there but they float on by.

Arguments, disagreements happen. But they happen and go. The echo or reverberation of grievances is lost. Things happen and aren't replayed over and over and over in the mind anymore. Things just aren't taken to heart. Guilt is lessened.

There are less thoughts of the past and future. In fact, at the moment, less thoughts in general. Longer periods of silence without habitual thought to fill up the space.

Life is coming from another angle...
The pattern of thoughts arising has changed a little. There seems to be less thoughts about needing to control the future and outcome of events and situations. A lot of repetitive habitual fearful worrisome thoughts (about the future) are not occurring with such aggression and frequency as in the past.
There is less resistance and less labelling of any emotion that is or was seen as unpleasant by the mind such as anxiety or fear.

It is hard to remember what it was like, to believe in a separate 'ME'. Even though it wasn't that long ago. It is hazy, like a dream-did it really happen? Was a ME ever here? It seems like the 'I' never really existed. It seems very shadowy, like all that ME ME ME DRAMA!!! that seemed so real was really just a dream.

Before I saw I didn't exist I wondered if anyone would notice I had changed if/when it happened. Nope! Hahahaha! I am exactly the same person to them, as I was before. No halo! ;)


5)How would you describe it to somebody who has never heard about this illusion but is curious about it.
Hmmmm...
You are not who you think you are! Facing this illusion means it is possible to lose everything you thought you were.

You are not the body, yes? You are not the mind, yes? Then where are you? Where is this I, that you believe you are?

I would try not to speculate about 'enlightenment' or put any idea into their heads, but to gently prod, and ask them to find the controller, the Doer inside.
'Liberation' nothing like you think it will be like! :)

And drop all expectations.

It will be what it is, for you and if you are prepared to accept that then go ahead!
I would say...keep living in the illusion if you are having a happy dream. Then again, people who are having a happy dream don't seem to look for the truth of reality as much as people who may be fed up with it. Maybe you have to be fed up with the stories and melodrama to some extent.

I don't think I would encourage meditation retreats. That just is dancing around the truth of no self. Don't play spiritual games, unless all you want to do is have fun playing spiritual games.
I would advise not to beat around the bush, but to go directly to the source of the illusion and discover what has always not existed. The self. Look inside. Try to locate yourself. :) I would ask them, If the only 'I' in you is just a thought...can a thought think?

I would highly recommend having a guide who sees that you do not exist, and can step you through, very much! I think the mind plays too many tricks to see if you are alone. There are too many circles you can go in. Too many knots the mind would like to tie itself in, just to avoid facing the fact that the 'I' the mind created does not exist.

This truth is nothing another person can intellectually convince you of. You must look with your own volition and determination, and be willing to find out you do not exist.


6) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look? Can you describe the moment when seeing happened?
I think the prod..."I is a THOUGHT. Can thoughts think?" hit home somehow at the time. Although I didn't notice it. I kept rolling that over throughout the day, and carried it throughout the subsequent days.
I do not recall a specific moment or instant in time or any AHA moment really. I didn't know it had happened until it was too late! It almost happened in the background...as if the nothingness slowly grew, and pushed the 'I' identification over the edge while the 'I' was asleep!

Just like a transforming chrysalis has no idea what it is happening until it is a butterfly! It just, kind of HAPPENED of its own accord. And the butterfly can't really remember much of being a caterpillar...
The fact that there is no 'I' sank in over a couple of days...I think it is still sinking in-Ooh, yes, there is still nothing there!


7) Anything to add?
I am so very grateful for your constant guidance, your faith in the fact 'I' did not exist, your love, feedback and support.

AROHANUI (lots of love) as we say here in New Zealand
Love Helen

Ilona 

Beautiful! Loved reading your answers. You sound clear and properly through. That was such joy to read this.
Could I put this on my blog, so I could invite you to LU Facebook groups, where you can meet new friends and share how it goes for you.

If you prefer, I can change your name or leave just an initial. This conversation may be of help to someone else. :)

Lots of love.
Arohanui

Greetings from uk. <3


Helen 

Dear Ilona,
I'm happy you enjoyed my answers!
Of course you are most welcome to use anything I have written in any way shape, or form on your blog or anywhere else you may like :)
Reading conversations with other people helped me immensely before our conversation :)
In particular the conversation from The Gateless Gate book with Jamie-very funny, and good at dashing all glorified expectations.
And you can use my name too...I don't feel very attached to it any more!!!
I would really love to make contact with other people who have 'stepped' through also at LU.

Lots and lots of thank you's!
Arohanui always, Helen :)