Noirioni: Slowly, But Surely, Everything Seem to Fall into Place.

Noirioni:
Hi Ilona,

I have got a strong pull towards asking you to be my guide.
Will you help me?

I´m now 60 years old and I have been in the Zen/Advita ”business” for over 20 years!

About a year ago I was in bed and imagined myself to be a wave on the ocean.
And at the same time the feeling of being a separate person disappeared!
Suddenly I realized that it had always been like this, there was never a separate person.
Everything happened all by itself, ”I” had no control because ”I” didn´t exist.
This feeling lasted a few minutes and then everything returned to normal.
Thoughts kept coming up and feelings came and went.
Just like they had always done.

Now, when I try to ignore all that I have learnt, the following appears:

-There is awareness of experience.

-There seems to be someone (”I"?) or something experiencing sounds, sights, emotions...

-There seems to be some connection between experiencing and the body (when I
close my eyes visuals disappear, when I close my ears sounds disappear…)
Experience seems to happen through the body?

-What I call ”me” is the one that is experiencing everything.

-Feelings and thoughts seem to be private (I can´t know what you are thinking, feeling).

-What am I seeing in the mirror?

All this on one hand and the knowing of there being no-one on the other hand
leads to a great confusion, as you can imagine.

I feel that I really need some clarity and guidance in these matters.

Please help!
Noirioni, from Sweden

Ilona:
Hi Noirioni,

Thank you for email. It's a pleasure to meet you. My answers will be below your questions.

Now, when I try to ignore all that I have learnt, the following appears:
-There is awareness of experience.
This statement suggests that there is awareness and experience as two separate objects, but look, awareness = experience. Two different words, same stuff. Look, there is the view in front, it's not like there is something that witnesses it from the back, outside of it. The view = awareness of the view = awareness.
Language makes up separation where there is none.

-There seems to be someone (”I"?) or something experiencing sounds, sights, emotions...

The key word here is SEEMS. Yes, it seems, as thoughts say, there must be one. But there is nothing there. Look, what do you find, is there a hearer of sound ? what is the i that hears sounds? the I that breathes, sits, talks? is there one?

-There seems to be some connection between experiencing and the body (when I
close my eyes visuals disappear, when I close my ears sounds disappear…)

A question to ask here is this:
Is it body that experiences or body is the experienced? Is there a gap between you and bodily sensations?

Experience seems to happen through the body?

Or perhaps AS? As sensations that are labeled "body", "arm" , "hair" etc..

-What I call ”me” is the one that is experiencing everything.

Right. What is the i and what is the me and what is the difference?
Have a look, is there a gap, between experienced and experiencer? Where is the line, that separates me from out there?
Is there such sensation that you would point to and say- that's separateness.

We can look at the other questions later. Write what comes up when you work with what i gave you.
It's really very simple and you saw that already. It's just about noticing what is happening here now.
kind regards,

Noirioni:
Hi again Ilona and thank you so much for your answers.

It really shook me up (in a good way)!
Now it’s 2:44 in the morning and I’m feeling wide awake!
So my answers are below.

Language makes up separation where there is none.

Wow, you´re sooo right. Fooled by words again! No two objects, of course.
Something really happened on a feeling level when I read this answer.
A merging of two concepts into one experience.
Separation gone.
So simple.
Will it stay?

The key word here is SEEMS.
Yes, it seems, as thoughts say, there must be one.
Is there one?

No, when looked upon this way there is really no-one here, doing anything.
I realize that the hearer of sounds is just a made-up character.
Just sound happening.
Just breathing.
Sitting.
Everything happens by itself.
It can almost be a little scary and certainly very unfamiliar.
No-one here?

Is it body that experiences or body is the experienced?
Is there a gap between you and bodily sensations?

No there is no gap between me and body sensations.
It´s all one happening.
But this feels like such a great shift, compared to my previous believes,
that I can´t really seem to grasp it right away.
I can feel the smell of it though...

Experience seems to happen through the body?
or perhaps AS?
As sensations that are labeled "body", "arm" , "hair" etc..

This is extremely interesting.
Can we talk more about this?
I feel I need many practical examples and to take very small baby-steps
before this can be accepted completely.
”Show me, I’m from Missouri!”

No difference between me and I.
I realize that they are just a made-up concepts.
And there cannot be a gap between experienced and experiencer, can there?
They must be one.
There cannot be any experience without experiencer, right?

You have shone a light into the dark caves where the I was living.
And shown that there is no-one living there!
Now I feel a big hole, emptiness where I thought that the I resided.
Strange feeling, but good!
It´s a lot lighter without it!
Hope it doesn’t come back?
I feel very new, sensitive and vulnerable right now.
Much like a new born baby...

Lots of love from Noirioni.

Noirioni:
Hi again Ilona,

Can I check some insights with you, to see if I´m on the right path?
Would it be true to state:

We think that we are a separate person that can control life.
But there is no ”you”. ”You” do not exist.
There is only Life pretending to be a separate person.
Life is person-ing.
Life is happening as us.

We think that we see a separate world with our eyes.
But “you” can’t see. “You” do not exist. There is no seer.
There is seeing. Life sees itself.

We think that we hear a separate world with our ears.
But “you” can’t hear. There is no “you”. There is no hearer.
Hearing happens. Life is hear-ing itself.

We think that we think thoughts.
But “you” can’t think. “You” do not exist. There is no thinker.
”You” are just a thought. There is thinking. Life thinks.

We believe we are the body.
But ”you” are not the body. There is no ”you”. There is a body.
Life is ”body-ing”. Bodying happens.

We believe that we are breathing.
But ”you” are not breathing. ”You” do not exist. There is no breather.
Breathing happens. Life is breath-ing.

But still, Life seems to need ”my” eyes to see with and ”my” ears to hear with…?

The body exists. The eyes exist. The tree, that is seen with these eyes, exist.
But a separate seer does not exist. Only seeing.
Is that a correct conclusion?

All the best,
Noirioni

Ilona:
Hi Noirioni.

Thank you for emails. Some great looking and observations~!

You ask, Would it be true to state, I say no.
Nothing that you arrive at as truth is truth.
No concept is true.

That's the fun thing- whatever we describe as an arrival point is only holding on to an idea.
Life is not experiencing life. Life is not an object. It's a concept. Same like any other word. It's a thought, idea, not reality. And yes, we can describe what we see and believe in our story, but if you don't see story as a story, you may be trapped into believing that this is how things really are.

"The body exists. The eyes exist. The tree, that is seen with these eyes, exist.
But a separate seer does not exist. Only seeing. "

The question of existence is another territory, it's about how things exists. There is a whole emptiness path, awareness path etc that work with these questions.

Let me show you something. There is an exercise in this post. Do it here or on paper and see how language creates subject, where is none.
http://markedeternal.blogspot.co.uk/2012/05/labels.html

And don't worry for now about what exists. Just see how describing affects what is being experienced. Write to me what you notice.
sending love.


Noironi:
Yes, I see what you mean.
That's a really good exercise.
It's clear that we habitually put in an I
where it's clearly not.
It's just an assumption, lying there like a big, fat, smiling cat!
Everything is much lighter and easier
without it.
It's just so unnecessary, it doesn't DO
anything!

I´m listening to my wife talking.
I’m looking at the trees outside.
I´m feeling full from lunch.
I´m feeling thirsty.
I´m typing on my laptop.
I´m thinking about what to watch tonight.
I´m sitting down.
My wife’s son is talking to me.
My dog is looking at me.
I´m feeling tired in my body.
I watch the clouds.
_______________________________________

Looking at clouds.
Listening to a conversation.
Breathing.
Dog wants to go out.
Playing guitar.
Typing on the laptop.
Feeling warm.
Remembering Zahn from LA.
Eating a chewing gum.

Thanks!

Ilona:
Wonderful! Yes, like a big fat smiling cat, haha

How does it feel to see this?
Is there any doubt?
Sending love

Noironi:
I'm afraid so.
It feels like living in two different worlds at the same time.
On a good day there is the knowledge (and sometimes even the feeling) of
there being no one there.
But other times it's not so clear and the character of "Noirioni" is alive and well and
searching continues. But at the same time there is very little,
if any, conflicts with "others" or "the world".
There is a lot of harmony and resting in
what is.

Can you relate to that?
Where am I?
And is there anything you can do to
push "me" further towards the edge?
Love, Noirioni


Ilona:
What is that the character is looking for? What does he expect to find?
How and what should be different?

With whole honesty, bring up all expectations. What do you want to happen, hope for? Let's see what shows up.
Sending love

Noironi:
Hi again and thanks for not letting me off the hook too easily!

I suppose that one part is that the searching for truth has gone on for so long that it has become a habit.

And old habits die hard.
The mind refuses to see that it can’t ”understand”.
So even if I know the truth of there being no separate person, it doesn’t seem to help to destroy the illusion at a deeper level.

The illusion of me being in a body is just too strong!

Another part is the deep experience/feeling I had the other year of there being
no one, no person. Just seeing, feeling, touching, thinking all by itself
without anyone doing it. That was great!

It was shattering and I guess there is some longing to get back to that state.

But the exercise you gave me to study ”I´m walking” compared
to ”walking” was really good and it comes up all the time in different situations.

So maybe s-l-o-w-l-y…
Thanks, Noirioni


Ilona:
And old habits die hard.
Not true. Old habits can drop easily, when they become conscious, when they no longer make sense.

The mind refuses to see that it can’t ”understand”.
So even if I know the truth of there being no separate person, it doesn't seem to help to destroy the illusion at a deeper level.

Right. It does not help to destroy illusion. But what if nothing needs to be destroyed?
What in your opinion needs to be destroyed?
Look this way: you are in a desert, you see an oasis. You know it's mirage. You run to it, and nothing is there, just more sand. You look further and see another oasis. Another mirage, you run again and see again, that nothing is there. Next time you see an oasis.. Do you need to destroy that mirage? Or you just know not to chase after an illusion?

The story continues, the character continues, nothing changes. Only that person is seen as fiction, not actuality.

The illusion of me being in a body is just too strong!

Ok, where is this me in the body now?
Find it.
What is there?
Which sensation is you?

Another part is the deep experience/feeling I had the other year of there being
no one, no person. Just seeing, feeling, touching, thinking all by itself
without anyone doing it. That was great! It was shattering and I guess there is some longing to get back to that state.

Yes, that's kinda common, trying to get to a state from before. But there is only here now. And the peace is underneath all thinking. It's a matter of simply stopping and noticing.
All states come and go. Nothing stays permanently. And freedom is not from unwanted states. Freedom is to experience all fully, no matter what state is present. No state is final.

But the exercise you gave me to study ”I´m walking” compared
to ”walking” was really good and it comes up all the time in different situations.
So maybe s-l-o-w-l-y…

You are in the process already... Notice, all is simply happening...

With whole honesty, bring up all expectations. What do you want to happen, hope for? Let's see what shows up. This is still an invitation to explore.

Sending love.

Noirioni:
I was writing:
I don't want to feel like a separate person.
I want to see through the illusion of separation.
I want to experience reality as it is.
I want peace of mind.
And there was suddenly an insight that:
all expectations are just thoughts from the ego point of view!
So I leaned back and relaxed.

Birdsong.


Ilona:
The story continues, the character continues, nothing changes. Only that person is seen as fiction, not actuality.
Mmm, I guess you´re right. There is no way to destroy that which does not exist.
There are moments of clarity when this can be seen.

Which sensation is you?

It seems more and more that ALL sensations and experiences is me...

Another part is the deep experience/feeling I had the other year of there being
no one, no person. Just seeing, feeling, touching, thinking all by itself
without anyone doing it. That was great!

Freedom is to experience all fully, no matter what state is present. No state is final.
Yeah, here and now there are really no problems (unless you think about it). I´m stopping and noticing more and more. Or it is happening more and more.
On a good day I can see (or it can be seen) that it´s all unfolding exactly the way
it should and that everything is happening by itself.

With whole honesty, bring up all expectations. What do you want to happen, hope for? Let's see what shows up.
It feels like what is still left is a desire for clarity in these matters…
I want to be as clear as you are!
Love and best wishes.


Ilona:
Hi Noirioni.

Can you look back and see if there is anything different in normal everyday life since we started this conversation. What hasn't changed?

The clarity.. The more lies are seen through, the more clarity there is. There are lots of beliefs to examine, it takes time for them all to come up, one by one.
Let's examine, what is not clear yet and work with that.
Sending love


Noirioni: 
Hi Ilona,

Thanks for getting back to me.

What is appearing more and more, since we started talking, is that thoughts come up insisting:
”There is no separate person”, ”You do not exist” and ”There is no Noirioni”.

There is really no fear in this, just an: Aha, yes that’s true.

Sometimes there’s a feeling that I’m not the body (which I have believed to be for so long)
but just what is experiencing. Being the world and everything!

What hasn´t changed is the experience of what is happening in the moment.
That is always the same.

And sometimes "I just go there”, or ”I’m just there” and everything’s fine. No problems. No desires. Just what’s happening.

But I feel quite unsure that I’m there all the time.

Sometimes I get lost in thoughts.

I think you’re right when you say that more clarity comes from seeing through all the lies we’ve been fed.
One by one.

Ilona:
Nice..

"But I feel quite unsure that I’m there all the time."

Where there? There is only here. Here now. This moment. No other place or time to be. How can you be not here, ever?

Sometimes I get lost in thoughts.
Well, should this not be happening? It's part of experience and that too is included. Getting lost in thoughts and feeling is natural. No need to fight it, just notice, that thoughts are not actuality. Story is not reality. It's a story about it. The feelings, the sense sensations in the moment are actuality.

Yes, more work to be done, more processing.. The thing is, all that is not serving starts to fall off. There is no end to falling, no landing on a ground.
Sending love.


Noirioni: 
Now wait a minute!

If you´re saying that everything is OK that happens in this moment, the even feeling like a separate person would be all right, would´t it?
Anything that happened would be OK?
That would make life a lot easier, don´t you think?
How could you miss that?

Warm today!
Love, Noirioni

Ilona:
:)

Warm today!
Lovely here as well.

Noirioni: 
I´ve been reading through your posts on ”Marked, Eternal”
and listening to the audiobook by Jed McKenna and now I feel a bit like this:

It seems like all old beliefs are crumbling.

And what is left?

There are no separate parts - no borders. Check.
There is no ”I” - the ”I” is only a thought. Check.
So there is no control - everything is happening by itself. Check.
Thoughts appear from nowhere - and passes by. Check.
We believe ”I think” instead of ”thinking happens”. Check.
Feelings appear from nowhere - and passes by. Check.
Some labels point to reality - some to unreality. Check.
”I am” always here, now. Check.
There is a body - but it´s not ”mine”. Check.

There is just the Mona Lisa´s smile…


Ilona:
Awesome!
the structure is on the melt down... great!

Is there anything else that wants to be examined? Is there any doubt?
much love.


Noirioni: 
Hi Ilona,

It feels very fresh and sensitive right now as the moldering away has started.

But at the same time very familiar and very light, like a burden has been lifted from the shoulders.
So I´m sure something will come up that needs clarification.
I hope I can contact you then?

But you sure started off the process, putting the dynamite in place
and firing away.

Actually your exercise in writing: ”I´m walking” and ”Walking”was really the final blow to make the whole ”I”-thought start to crumble!

Slowly, but surely, everything seem to fall into place.

Thank you so much for beginning to demolishing me
and all the best!

You are a wrecking ball!
Love, Noirioni

Ilona:
Delightful!

I like to see dynamite explosions :) It gives a sense of another wall going down.

Would you say with a big fat YES, it's clear, that I, the separate self, is an illusion.
If so, are you ready for what we call 'final questions'?
Much love

Noirioni:
Hi,
The foundations of a separate self has surely begun it´s final deconstruction.

It´s being seen through more and more every day.

And although it may take some time to tear down the whole structure there is no turning back once the ground floor is gone.
But it all happens exactly as it should.
Every thought, every move, every feeling is like a gift.
The Great Mystery Energy expressing itself as this.
There seems to be less and less knowing, not more and more.
All that this world is made up of is being seen as lies
(or as some would put it: ”God in confusion”

This night there was a feeling how everything is made of the same ”stuff".

How thoughts, feelings, time and everything is connected, interdependent
and how there are no borders between anything.

It´s all created at the same time.

And only this exists!
Strange, but beautiful!
So, if you want, we can try the questions and see what happens.
Love and gratitude...

Ilona:Strange and beautiful indeed...
Here are the questions. No rush. Write what feels true. If I see some sticky points, we can look at that.
.......
Much love.


Noirioni:
1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?
Was there ever?

After studying and practicing Zen and Advita for about 20 years I had an experience last year that really shook the foundations of the illusory self, when I suddenly felt that the personal "self-feeling" was gone. It only lasted for a few seconds, maybe minutes, but during that time there was a clear sense of there being no ”me” and that there never had been.

Everything just went on as before. Thoughts coming up, feelings, sensations,
but suddenly the feeling of being a person was gone.
It was a great relief, because I knew right away what it was after all my reading about it.
I don´t know what happened next, but I suspect that the old feeling of being a person returned after some time...?
Now I feel and think less and less about whether there is a person, separate from everything else or not.

2a) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is:
The illusion seem to consist of thoughts and feelings that tell us that we are a separate entity,
cut off and living unconnected to the world and everything around us.

b) when it starts:
We are taught that this is who we are, and this body is yours, not mine by our parents and society when we grow up.
And I suppose it´s a good thing because if we didn´t believe in being a separate person we could easily become psychotic.

c) and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.
The seeing of the illusory nature of a separate self is deepening and working in more and more situations.
As soon as someone opens their mouth I can tell right away how the thought/feeling of being a separate self is controlling and affecting them and their behavior.
And then I think: ”No worries, mon. That´s OK, that is how the Whole is expressing itself right now.
It´s all good. It´s all perfect."
What I experience is a body moving around in the world and ”private" thoughts coming into existence.
And there is still use of the word ”I” to describe what happens in this body and mind.
I still say: ”I feel tired”, ”I´m hungry”, ”I see the dog”, ”I´m going into town tomorrow" and so on
(which of course is quite confusing)!
But there is less belief in the thoughts of a separate ”me” anymore.
Often there is a seeing through the ”me”-illusion.
Everything just seems to be experiences. Always changing.

3a) How does it feel to see this?
It feels a lot lighter, like a weight has been lifted. It´s easier to even breathe! Clarity.
There is still an interest in Advita matters but it seems more like a deepening of understanding
than a desperate longing for the "truth".

b) What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.
Contacting you and following your advice made everything more practical and less theoretical.
I could see that what I had already realized in theory also held water in practical situations.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?
All the things you said made sense and especially the exercise with writing down:
”I´m walking” compared to ”Walking” was an eyeopener to see that the separate me really didn´t do anything.
Everything just happened by itself.

5a) Can you talk about decision, intention, free will, choice and control?
Here I feel more sure and can clearly see that thoughts, that come up from nowhere, have total control.
Everything just happens. There is no free will, as there is no one to have it. All choices are made by the whole.
And I have complete trust that the whole is benign and that it always makes the right choices.
Why should it make a wrong choice? The way I see it, Life makes no mistakes.
And everything that happens is there to help you see who/what you are.
Life is helping itself to wake up?

b) What makes things happen?
I have no idea. Just that the whole Universe is behind anything that happens.

c) How does it work? Give examples from experience.
Suddenly a thought arises: ”I´d like to have some tea”. Then I go and make the tea and drink it.
Seldom is there any hesitance in what to do. There is full trust in the process that governs all that happens.
And very few discussions with it.
I feel that there is a ”clear seeing”. For example when my wife gets into a "pain attack”,
I can more and more (on a good day) see what is happening and not react on an ego level,
but just let her be in that space until it passes. This is a really good exercise!

6) Anything to add?
No, I think that covers most of it from this point of view.
Just that I´m very grateful for your input and clear seeing.
Please let me know of things that are still fuzzy for me so we can do some more cleaning.
Nothing wrong with a little brain washing, eh?
Love, Noirioni


Ilona:
Thank you very much for answering so fully and clearly.
It's been a pleasure to walk with you.
This makes me see that shift happened. It's subtle. But as time goes, you will see, it changes everything.

3a) How does it feel to see this?
It feels a lot lighter, like a weight has been lifted. It´s easier to even breathe! Clarity.
There is still an interest in Advita matters but it seems more like a deepening of understanding
than a desperate longing for the "truth".

The illusion seem to consist of thoughts and feelings that tell us that we are a separate entity,
cut off and living unconnected to the world and everything around us.

Nicely said. Not sure why you use word we. Are there multiple separate entities? I'm just poking now, to see if there is anything in this area that may want to be explored.
Much love your way.


Noirioni:
Mmm, good question!

A slip of the tongue?
The slip of a thought?

I like your poking, I don´t want to get off the hook with some half-assed understanding.
I´m in it to the end of the line...

Seeing that there is no separate person has a lot of consequences that have to be considered?
The thing is that there seems to be two different worlds.

In one there are thoughts, words, labels.
It describes the dualistic world and cannot describe anything else.
This is where there are problems and wanting to understand everything.
A longing for the total clarity that you express.

This is the many still unanswered questions
and thoughts like these come up from nowhere:
- is there a world without anyone seeing it?
- why is there pain when ”my” or ”this" foot is hurt
and no pain when ”you" hurt ”your" foot?
- why does it seem that awareness follows "this body"?

The other world is without words. It´s just what is happening right now.
And here there are no problems.

The experience of this now:
- tapping the keyboard.
- seeing the trees outside the window.
- amused at thoughts that pass by.
- drinking tea with lemon.

Now that I write it down I realize that the first world, of thoughts,
is actually contained in the second world of experiences.

This is the real world.

And seeing this could/should bring about total clarity, but it
just brings about total presence (which isn´t too bad, of course).

But, I would´t be able to answer questions, like you do.
What´s up?
Love, Noirioni


Noirioni:
Hello, anybody home…? Guess not.


Ilona:
- is there a world without anyone seeing it?
Is anyone seeing it? The world is seen. That's obvious. It's here.
Seer?
Where is it?

- why is there pain when ”my” or ”this" foot is hurt
Why ? 

Just because.
Why question is story weaver. Any answer is as good as any. More accurate or not.
The answer is not in mind story. The question is irrelevant. Curious thing to explore, but empty.

and no pain when ”you" hurt ”your" foot?
- why does it seem that awareness follows "this body"?

Is this body arising in awareness or awareness arising in the body? Or does it matter?

Object and awareness is same thing. It's not two different somethings.
Look, sound is heard, is awareness something that is outside, separate, different? Does labelling create that what we call sound?

The other world is without words. It´s just what is happening right now.
And here there are no problems.
Sweeeeet!

But, I would´t be able to answer questions, like you do.
What´s up?

I did not answer your questions, but gave you some variations of questions. You can answer them now. :)

PS. Sorry for disappearing, I have been distracted away.. Happens.

Noirioni:
Hi!

Today there was a realisation that
since there is no separate self,
there really is nothing to do.

No use asking questions.
No use in believing thoughts.
They just pass.
Not even concentrating on THIS,
because who could do that?
There is just THIS.
Love, Noirioni

PS: been looking at the LU pointers
in FaceBook, they're really great!

Thanks!!! ️


Ilona:

Lovely.
But does action require a doer?
There is nothing to do regarding seeking for something other than what is.
Still action arises, things get done.
What drives action?
Sending love


Noironi:
Everything seems to happen by itself.
There is no entity there doing decisions or actions.
What more can be said?
The sun is rising…or rather, the earth is turning…

Ilona:
Good morning :)
Lovely answer. Thank you.
Welcome home..

What happens next is this, I usually put these conversations in my blog and other guides have a read to see if they might have any questions for you. If none, I invite you to join LU groups for continuous support and friendships.
This is a beginning of exploration, there will be lots of stuff coming up to be seen, sometimes it's good to have a place to talk about all this.

Would it be ok to put our conversation on my blog? I can use your first name, or initial or whatever name you prefer.
Much love your way!


Noirioni:
Thanks for good guiding!

You can use the name: Noirioni if you want to put our conversation on your blog.
Waiting for more questions from other guides.

Love to join the LU groups for further exploration.

Would be nice to connect to guides in Sweden and Portugal
(that´s where winter is to be spent) ️
Do you know any?

I went up and down and then disappeared in the ocean.

Ilona:
Thank you so much.

How to Reach a Permanent Non Dual State

I get asked sometimes, how to reach the permanent state of non duality, or otherwise no self; how to be in that state 24/7, 365. As if there is such a state called "non duality". 

My simple answer is this: when a kid realises that Santa is not real, does the he live in the state of "no Santa" for the rest of his life? I feel nothing special about Santa being fiction, I don't think about it. (Other than using Santa example here sometimes) Life goes on. Experiences are happening. But question is this Santa state or no-Santa state does not arise, it's irrelevant. It's not a question. 

So when one is looking for a permanent state of no self, one is imagining that there is such a state. One imagines that it's something that is not what one experiences. But states come and go, the present state, as it is here now is ever changing. Breathing is happening, sounds are heard, view is being seen, movements are felt, that's the present experience in whole of its glory. Calling this dual or non dual, self or no self or even experience is irrelevant. It's here now. With and without names. This does not care if it's named at all. And thoughts arise and pass as part of the whole movement of the whole moment. There is no separateness and no unity, all these ideas are overlaid on what is indivisible and always here. 

The silent space of here now does not change. Sense of being is not being switched on or off at will. The content of experience is changing like a kaleidoscope, it has many angles to explore: some are pink and rosy, some dark and heavy. That's ok. Search or not for another experience, it changes by itself and all passes. 

Realising that experience here now simply is as it is, with and without names and has nothing to do with self or no self, dual or non dual, frees the question. 

Perhaps those that look for permanent non dual / no self state are really looking for something else, like bliss 24/7, being at peace, feeling of oneness, unity, flowing, staying always happy and high? That too is a fantasy, unless you are constantly on mind altering substances, or have a highly evolved abilities.

Preferred states are great and while they last they are delicious. Unwanted states are part of life too, it does not mean that these states are somehow dual. 

Helen: "Seriously? just this?"

Helen:
Hi Ilona,

"I" viscerally saw through the illusion of "me" about 8 months ago (with
non-LU guide online and through direct pointing koans/questions) and it
seems to be integrating well into life in general, deepening (relaxed,
detached and compassionate out-looking, others/everything seen as One and
not apart from "me," no fear, much humor, answers to questions arising
quickly, joy even with life-fluxes).

Looking through the site, disclaimer, groundrules, posting instructions,
and reading Gateless Gatecrashers and Direct Pointing Guide, I am
interested in joining the aftercare and awakened connection groups and
possibly even guiding at some point. I do not have a community as my
journey is mostly solitary, introspective and gentle but very much wish to
interact with others who have broken through the illusion of separation.
When I found LU it feels right (no creed, just d.e., simple) ~ thank you
for making this happen :) Is it possible to have access to the groups?

If there is anything else I can tell you, please ask and I am happy to
answer.

Many thanks and much love,
Helen

Ilona:
Hi Helen,

Thank you very much for reaching out and emailing me. It is great to connect with others and be part of community.
There are two ways how to get there.
You can register on the forum, tell your story, answer some questions and once it's clear that you see what we point to, we invite you to groups.
Or, we can chat over email, then I can post our conversation on my blog and see if any other guides have any questions. Either way is fine. It's up to you.

Sending Love.

Helen:
Hi Ilona,

Thank you for writing back. Email and your blog is fine since we are already here. I am registered on the forum (user Eka) and on the Facebook group (Helen Eki Talasi) as well.

Looking over the community there are so many different and beautiful journeys, it is inspiring to have them shared. Part of my story and what I see when I look is on my poetry blog (flashesofbodhi.wordpress.com). Poetry always appealed to me - direct, much shared with few words :)

If ok with you, we can chat. You mentioned answering some questions...

With love,
Helen

Ilona:
Sorry for the delay..
Here are some questions that we ask everybody. Take your time :)

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5)can you talk about decision, intention, free will, choice and control? What makes things happen? How does it work? Give examples from experience

6) Anything to add?

Please answer in full, when ready.
Much love.

Helen:
Hi Ilona,

No problem, no rush :) Here are my answers...

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

No and there never was. Only conventionally, the group of processes and form with label "Helen," or "Ilona," or "Dean," or whomever, was/is labeled as a self. Once this illusion was penetrated, no self is seen anywhere, in any way, shape or form, ultimately from cosmos-centric perspective.

After the initial seeing, integration happened by "catching" thoughts, noticing how this illusion arises and letting go. As soon as seen, poof, gone :)

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now. 

It starts with language. Once a child learns to label groupings, including the "self," "me," "mine," an attachment/delusion forms. Thoughts are reinforced by environment and maintain this delusion - continuous use of labels. Until direct seeing happens, perspective shift, shattering of illusion.

Others still see Helen, and everyone/thing else as separate entities, however, this is no longer seen on this side. It helped that I was never fond of labels :)

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

Difficult to describe with words since it is words/thoughts that maintain a sense of separation. To try: it's freeing, light (both not-heavy and like sunshine), relaxing into anything that happens, no longer entangled in "inner" or "outer" stories, fully engaged with what is because there is an understanding, a new perspective, that anything that happens is just processes. Also, there is a sense that everything is connected, One, thus love and compassion flow naturally. Fear gone. Anger impossible. Much laughter and acceptance, like finally being home. Otherwise, life goes on as usual :) It's been about 8 months now and this period has been balancing, integrating new perspective.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look? 

Ever since I was very young, I knew there was more to life than what we are told. The journey was both gradual and sudden. The gradual part was the intellectual understanding and smaller direct insights into the nature of reality (such as seeing impermanence, non-separation from others, the flow of thoughts, cause-effect of happenings, ...), cleaning up old patterns, deconstructing. Meditation made the mind supple and continuous awareness possible, looking at EVERYthing. The turning point, visceral seeing was when I sat through the Mondo Zen 13 koans, series of questions guiding to see through the illusion of self/controller. It took about one hour. It was like a flash, complete clarity that there is no self any where nor when. It was so simple, clear, and funny, almost unbelievable. But the seeing was unmistakeable. I remember laughing, asking "Seriously? Just this?" The opening was gentle, not too much of a fight because of previous "priming," frame of reference. Ever since then this seeing deepened and is integrating into everyday life, holding the view while living, until it became a spontaneous new way of being.

5) Can you talk about decision, intention, free will, choice and control? What makes things happen? How does it work? Give examples from experience.

After seeing through the illusion of a separate self, conventional reality still exists and this form continues until death/transformation. What happened is a perception shift whereas the ego/personality no longer deceives but still functions, now more malleable and open, no longer the controller. Even these words are shaped by previous experience, habits. Attachment ceased and there is observing of experiences, all happening naturally, arising in response to flow of events. I could say that previously decisions were more of a struggle-choice, spinning thoughts, now it's more akin to natural inclination, arising, like a flower emitting scent. There is a movement towards simplicity, to relax, simplify, let be, let go. Intention to promote joy and harmony and a deep compassion for all life. For instance, you choose to be a tattoo artist, I choose to be a librarian, and we both choose to align our life with liberation :) The choice becomes simple, to move toward what aligns with heart.

There is perception of both unity and multiplicity without contradiction between them. It just is. Life goes on, Helen buys groceries, cleans floor, takes care of family, helps friend, deals with problem, answers questions, rests when needed, but now no longer entangled, no longer upset, easy, smiling, breath by breath, moment by moment :)

6) Anything to add?

No :)

With much love,
Helen


Ilona: 
Thank you so much Helen, your answers resonate and sound clear. What you describe rings true and simple. Let me share this on the blog and let others enjoy the sweetness of your writing.

Much love.

Helen:
Thanks Ilona, please feel free to share :)

Love,
Helen

Fear Is A Sensation.

Fear informs about itself through an intense sensation. There is this distinct flush, that gets triggered by thought or sound, visual stimulus, smell, taste or touch. The sudden contraction makes itself known as fear. It's not pleasant and may set a chain of reactions. It's felt as a strong NO to whatever is triggering it.

Imagine for a second. You are in a desert. Wide open space. You are walking for hours, in circles. You go up another hill and see a door. It s standing right there, very obvious and it has got a lock on it. No key around. No key in your pockets. Door does not move, does not open, it just stands there. You are stunned and can not move forward. So you sit by the door, and sit some more, thinking, guessing, dreading for what is behind it. It feels like the door is guarding something, something that you need to see. The lock at the same time is having a laugh, it is done it's trick, it makes it appear that there is something behind the door that is protected. There is another way to find out what is behind the door. No need to unlock it, no need to push it open, just take a step to the side and look behind it, behind the door. There is nothing there. It's just nothing there! The desert continues in all ways, the door stands there, but it's not an obstacle.

The fear feels and acts like that lock on the door. It stops one from going further. If it is not safe, it makes itself known by a contracted feeling. It's a signal to step back, warning of danger, real or imagined. That feeling can be so strong that it may paralyze thinking and acting.

I learned about looking behind the fear from watching Pamela Wilson working with people, getting them relaxing from old tensions and fears.

Fear is a sensation. It is not to be feared, but noticed, felt. It is not good or bad, in itself. It is doing it's job, keeping the self image and belief structure safe and intact. And at the center of belief castle there is a special belief- you, a separate entity, perceiver of life, in charge of your own choices. When fear is triggered and set in action, reactions may be unpredictable.

There are many techniques and ways to deal with fear, but let's try something different. Acknowledging it's presence when it shows up, being aware that fear is here -- thank it. Thank it for coming. Just let it be here for a minute. And see that it's ok for it to be here. Bow to it in honor.

Then look behind it. What is there? Is anything showing up? And what is behind that?

Just like that locked door in the desert, you can look from the other side. All you need to do is take a peek, out of curiosity, see what is there behind that door.

This way you don't need to go into feeling, analyse it endlessly, instead look at what is hiding there, behind that sensation.

If fear is too big, there are ways to reduce it. I recommend EFT (emotional freedom technique) or whatever that works for you. Some people experience a lot of fear in this process, some don't at all. There is no rule. If you feel fear, acknowledge it, if not, then don't look for it. There really is nothing to be afraid of. Nothing is going to vanish, disappear, die or get destroyed. It's safe. Questioning core beliefs does not destroy anything real. Only the false falls away. The false that distorts the view, that holds tension, anxiety, suffering. It may feel like a loss, but nothing worth keeping gets lots.

In other words, nothing stops being what it already is. Beliefs that no longer serve, are no longer needed and it's OK to move past that and explore with fresh eyes.

Bypassing fear, making friends with it, using it as a radar to find places that still need cleaning up of old beliefs, is a different way to relate to fear. In this way it can be appreciated. After all is has been doing such great job so far.

So take a peek, look behind it. What is there that feels threatened? You may find one of two things- nothing at all, or something that wants to be seen. Keep looking, what is there.

When mind sees that there is nothing there, the protection mechanism stops protecting that nothing. This may come like a shock, but what is the worst that can happen to nothing?

Fear is a friend, really. It builds protection. It guards form harm. But all those ideas that appear important can not be harmed. The image of me, is mind made. It is not something that can be harmed, disappear, die, or be lost, it's an image, created by mind and protected by fear. As if mind instructed itself to forget to question the self-made image of identity.

Don't fear that sensation. Say yes to it, next time it comes up and see what else you notice about this mechanism, about the nature of sensation and what triggers it. Explore it with curiosity, fearlessly.

My Worst Nightmare... Is Not a Nightmare!

Helen 
Jan 29

Dear Ilona,
I have just read the Gateless Gatecrashers, and was wondering if you had time and volition to guide me through the gate. I can reply to emails at least once a day over the next three weeks, then a little more intermittently after that for a month. Then more regularly again.

Over the past 5 years I have taken a few Goenka Vipassana retreats, and over the past year I have been trying self inquiry, who/what is aware, can the perceiver be perceived etc etc but feel like I am hitting a brick wall.

I feel like biting the bullet so to speak...all I want is the TRUTH, because I feel like I am living a lie! And I think I need someone who has stepped through to help.

When I read over what I had written at the suggestion on your site: "There is no self at all in Reality, no ME that lives my life" I have a mixture of reactions. Anger, resistance, "It can't be true!" I feel resistance in that the 'me' says there HAS to be a witness or an awarer. Knot of fear felt in stomach, dread, heaviness, fear of non existence AND fear of standing out, more separation-isolation. There is also sometimes relief, peacefulness, impatience for liberation to happen and nothingness.

Apart from feeling the fear in the body I can't find anything at all behind the fear, nothingness.

What do I expect from liberation?
Well, mostly the TRUTH, whatever that may be.
To be honest, I am also expecting some sense of heightened detachment, and these small pangs of-"I hope to be SPECIAL"also arise.
I think a liberated person is a pretty normal human living out its life but I also have this rigid belief that a liberated person does not act in a very destructive violent way towards other life forms e.g. would not go on murderous rampages.

I feel quite open for liberation to be what it is, I don't feel like I have any control over what it is like, because I don't feel like I am in much control over my life anyway, so I accept what comes. Although I have had those 'peak' "spiritual" experiences many have had (bliss, at one with everything dissolved in love, blah blah) I still don't feel like they were THE truth.

But I have this expectation of an AHA moment, when it occurs, a subtle shift somehow
What do I not want 'liberation' to be like? Misery. Painful. Anti climax.Disappointment. A part of me is expecting something, anything...probably secretly extra-ordinary. But more of me wants the truth and nothing else, at any cost whatever wrapping the truth comes in.

Thank you so much for your time in reading my email Ilona, and if it is not possible to give guidance to me currently could you please point me in the direction of a guide who is able?
In Gratitude,
Helen

Ilona
Jan 29

Hi Helen.

H: I feel like biting the bullet so to speak...all I want is the TRUTH, because I feel like I am living a lie! And I think I need someone who has stepped through to help.

I: I know the feeling. And I will help you to get past that wall. But it is you that is doing the work, I'm here to hold focus and guide you, so to speak.


H: When I read over what I had written at the suggestion on your site: "There is no self at all in Reality, no ME that lives my life" I have a mixture of reactions. Anger, resistance, "It can't be true!"

I: Question here, have you ever considering checking if it's true? If not, how do you know it is true or not?

H: I feel resistance in that the 'me' says there HAS to be a witness or an awarer.

I: What would be lost if that was true- there is no witnesser, no awarer, just witnessing happening and awaring of all that is showing up?

H: Knot of fear felt in stomach, dread, heaviness, fear of non existence AND fear of standing out, more separation-isolation. There is also sometimes relief, peacefulness, impatience for liberation to happen and nothingness.

I: Fear of non existence, this is a big one.  But look at this- if there is no I, then there is nothing that disappears. It's just a drop of belief.  Nothing dies, nothing melts away or ends. The fear is here pointing the way to something that hasn't been explored. So look what it is that fear is protecting.


H: Apart from feeling the fear in the body I can't find anything at all behind the fear, nothingness.

I: Nice. So is that fear happening TO you? Is is something there that owns that fear?



H: What do I expect from liberation?
Well, mostly the TRUTH, whatever that may be.

I: There is no separate entity I, me, self. It's simple.  The sooner you look, the sooner all falls into place.  It can not be taught, learned, but noticed.


H: To be honest, I am also expecting some sense of heightened detachment, and these small pangs of-"I hope to be SPECIAL"also arise.

I: Are you special? In which way?

H: I think a liberated person is a pretty normal human living out its life but I also have this rigid belief that a liberated person does not act in a very destructive violent way towards other life forms e.g. would not go on murderous rampages.

I: Seeing through illusion does not change the character. If person was murderous, who knows what happens, lol. Nothing changes if you put pink glasses on, just the colour of the view, right? So this character, are you the driver? Are you the owner? Are you directing it's play?

H: I feel quite open for liberation to be what it is, I don't feel like I have any control over what it is like, because I don't feel like I am in much control over my life anyway, so I accept what comes. Although I have had those 'peak' "spiritual" experiences many have had (bliss, at one with everything dissolved in love, blah blah) I still don't feel like they were THE truth.

I: Truth is not in experiences. They all come and go, impermanent. This seeing is a shift in focus, a shift in perception, not an experience. It may very subtle and unnoticeable. It's pretty much like believing in Santa and fairy tale characters and then recognising that it's work of imagination.


H: But I have this expectation of an AHA moment, when it occurs, a subtle shift somehow
What do I not want 'liberation' to be like? Misery. Painful. Anti climax.Disappointment. A part of me is expecting something, anything...probably secretly extra-ordinary. But more of me wants the truth and nothing else, at any cost whatever wrapping the truth comes in.

I: The way it happens for you it's unique, so enjoy the ride and forget about this aha moment, some have it some not. Some have many on the way and which one was the one, wasn't really noticed.
So leave these expectations behind. They are only in the way.


Helen Burt
Jan 30 

Dear Ilona,
Thank you so much for replying to me!

I believe in theory that there is no self, and it is true that I cannot find an 'I' anywhere at all, but seem stuck in 'realising' it. I don't think I have been truly willing to LOOK in the past. No 'I' has been found at all today, and sometimes the 'looking for an I' is not there either. Just nothingness.
I am considering if it is true, that there is no self. I cannot locate the self. There is just complete unknowing!

If it is true that there is no witnesser or awarer then, (after the panic arose "WHAT, NO ME???") I feel nothing. Moments of laughter. If it never existed in the first place, no nothing would be lost at all.

Fear of non existence arose very strongly again when I saw your reply, immediate thought "no, I don't want to die!" "I can't look!" "This is the end!"
But looking at the fear, there is nothing there behind it.

The fear just happens, it coincides with the thoughts of fear of death. Then it goes away again. The fear doesn't belong to anything at all. It is protecting the fact that there is nothing. There is nothing to protect.

Am I special? No, I can't find any special-ness. There is no 'I' that I can even find that is special.

Am I directing the play? No, I can't find the director of the play anywhere. Fear of losing control, of not having control when I read that I cannot find the director of the play. The thought of life unoccupied, no control makes fear arise again.

Thank you for your feedback,
Helen

Ilona 
Jan 31 

Very nice.

Let's look deeper at the control thingy..

Try this-
Lift your left arm above the head. Do it now before reading further. Watch closely how it happens.

---(If you are reading this now you may do that too)---
......................

Did it happen? Was you controlling that happening? Did action happen first or thoughts that claimed the action? How did this happen, could it been a different response? Is there a free will?


Try this a few times through the day and investigate, what is control, is there a controller that is in charge of what is perceived, what is appearing?

Write what you find out. :)
Much love.


Helen Burt
Feb 1 

Dear Ilona,
The left arm lifted by itself, so the action happened first.There was no one controlling the arm lifting. The response could not have been different because no choice was involved. I cannot find an 'I' that controls or makes choices.There has been no choice over the actions or thoughts of the day, therefore, there is no free will.
Throughout the day actions and sensations have been happening BEFORE the 'I' claims it.

Stomach rumbles, then "I am hungry"
Back hurts, then "My back is sore"
Bladder full, then "I need to go to the toilet"
Tiredness, achy sensations "I am tired"
Many many many actions just happening...
Hands brushing hair.
Eyebrow itched.
Face is rubbed.
Something causes sadness, tears running, crying happening.
Walk to drink water. Drink water. No one is controlling this!
After observing all day, there is no 'I' that controls actions or thoughts. All day there has been no controller, life has been just happening.

The 'I' comes in to claim the action, after the action has begun to occur.
Sometimes a thought to do something will arise, ("I want to paint on canvas") then the action is carried out but still, there is no self that thought the thought. The thought...just appeared, out of nowhere, and the body followed the thought, and carried out the action.
Even conversation is just happening! Questions are asked of someone else around me. Responses to other questions. They come out of nowhere. I can't find the self that asked the question, or that responded.

So...there is NO control over what is perceived and what is appearing as reality, thoughts, actions, sensations. :)

Thank you!
In Gratitude and Love Helen

Ilona
Feb 4 

:) very nice answer.
How about thinker, is there a thinker of thoughts or thoughts happen by themselves? Are you in control of thinking?
Is I a thought or thinker of thoughts?

What do you notice?

Much love.


Helen 
Feb 6 

Dear Ilona,
I am noticing that there is NO thinker of thoughts.

Thoughts are happening by themselves all day, neutral thoughts and thoughts paired with emotion. All types of thought come into existence, and continue to reel off by themselves without a thinker.

There is no one in control of these thoughts. There is no thinker...there is absolutely no thinker of thoughts at any point :)
The 'I' that comes in to claim to 'think' many of these thoughts that arise throughout the day is itself just a persistently recurring thought.

The 'I' thought is making it appear that SOMETHING is in control but in reality it is nothing at all...it comes and goes.
So nothing is in control of thinking.
I am not in control of thinking...and it is becoming more apparent that 'I' don't exist.

'I' is merely a habitual thought. There is no substance, or any concrete evidence to support the 'I'.
Everything points to the 'I' as being...just a thought! :)

Thank you,
Love Helen

Ilona 
Feb 6 

Yes, exactly. I is a thought, not a thinker and not a doer.

Now turn around the focus from I, thought pointing to separate entity, to totality of all that is here, seen, experienced, heard, sensed etc. is anything missing? Anything that is not complete? Anything that does not run on automatic?

If there were no nouns in language, would experiencing change, would description be incomplete?


Sending love.


Helen 
Feb 7

Dear Ilona,
In the totality of all that is experienced, nothing is missing at all. Now it seems impossible and amusing that anything could ever be missing. All day, nothing experienced in this totality is incomplete, it is always complete.
Things are happening, seen, heard, smelt, touched, tasted... reality just...IS. The life around that is perceived is...living itself out, and everything is happening it seems...spontaneously! Nothing has appeared as not running automatically.

If there were no nouns, this experience of reality would remain the same, as it is-complete. Things always will be as they are, whether they have labels or not.
The description of reality would be incomplete without nouns, as no labelling could occur. What is perceived could not be dissected into parts.

Thank you,
Love Helen

Ilona 
Feb 7 

Beautiful, Helen. :) what you wrote resonates here too..

Can you say that shift has happened? Or is it still happening?
Would you say, it's time for final questions?

Sending love.


Helen 
Feb 8

Dear Ilona,
I do think the shift is still happening... but then again, there are thoughts appearing that are 'expecting' something MORE that says 'IT hasn't happened yet'.
...like somehow the mind is 'waiting' for the no-I to suddenly realize itself...! Or waiting for some mental epiphany.
...but...there is no I to realise that it doesn't exist!
And the 'I' thought that keeps appearing throughout the day can never be believed to be real again.
Something is definitely different, but life is still...exactly the same.
It is very subtle.
The same emotions, the same thoughts, reactions, the same 'I' thoughts...but they all have less weight.
...life is seen from a slightly shifted perspective but the shift to where, I have no idea!!! :)
I feel like the 'I'-ness is slowly dissolving...

Thank you :)
Love Helen

Ilona
Feb 8

Nice! Well, the shift is subtle, true, but it's very deep.

It's a no step journey- from being at home and looking for home to being at home and knowing that :)

Can you say, that it is clear that separate self is illusion? If so, are you ready to answer final questions?

Sending love.


Helen 
Feb 8 

Dear Ilona,
It is very clear that the 'I' thought is not a separate entity (and is not ME) that exists in the body and that it is just a thought.
There are other separate bodies with personalities around this body. There is a sense of separation from them. When there is awareness of other people, occasionally the mind says: "you haven't got it! you haven't got it! you are supposed to feel amazing ONE-NESS with other beings! There is still separation!"
Just a thought. :)

At the moment, at times the mind is creating a violent reaction to the fact that the self doesn't exist! It is trawling up any horror story in the future to have a panic tantrum about, to create itself!!! :)
But it is still seen that this is just thoughts too, and that there is no real self behind these thoughts.
It is almost like a death rattle, or the minds frantic, desperate ploy to get belief in its existence again!

'Helen' talks, she has conversations with people, has ideas and opinions but there is no belief that I AM HELEN any more. It is like the story of 'The emperors new clothes'
and...the game of life must keep playing :)

I am non existent! 'Helen' is nothing, a story of a 'life'.

...ready to answer final questions... :)

Thank you!!!
Love Helen

Ilona
Feb 10 

Sweet! Here they are :)
Please answer in full, when ready.

Much love.


Helen 
Feb 11 

Dear Ilona,
Thank you for the questions! I have tried to answer with what felt right...


1) Is there a separate 'me' 'I' 'self' , at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?
The Self really IS like Santa! If someone were to tell me that Santa really did exist and try to convince me, there is NO way I could ever believe them. I just cannot believe that 'I' exist in the same manner!
Likewise, if someone were to say "you do not exist" the fear and resistance that flooded my body in response when I first wrote that statement down, would not occur, because I know it is true-I don't exist!
The character of 'Helen' body plus thoughts lives without any doer or controller.
There is no separate 'I' at all anywhere. There is a body with sensations, there are thoughts. There is awareness. None of it is 'I'

There never was a separate ME. There was only ever belief in a separate me.
There is always a little smile at the moment, when the possibility of finding a separate 'I' is entertained. Impossible! What a funny absurd thought.

 2) in the experience, is there an experiencer? Is it body that experiences or is the body the experienced?
There is no experiencer. It can appear that way but there is no experiencer. Only impersonal life in the moment.

This question is the only one I think I have tripped up on...took me a while to figure it out!
The body experiences the world, tasting, hearing, smelling, seeing, touching because that is its function. The body can't be experienced because there is nothing TO experience it. You could say the body is the instrument through which life is experienced, by NOTHING!
There is no 'I' to control the body. There is no individual experiencer, even though there is an individual body.


3) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works.
The illusion of separate self starts when the mind begins to think that the word 'I' refers to an illusionary separate self located in the body. Every 'I' thought reinforces this illusion of separate self.
I think this must start very young. Maybe what they call the 'terrible twos' is when the 'I' illusion really starts to crystallize.

This 'I' is reinforced by other humans around who are also living under the illusion that there is a separate self existing inside them also. First parents, then siblings, friends, school etc all of society. Once you're under the illusion that's it, this world we live in-everything reinforces the 'I'.
It is believed that there is a separate 'I' inside the body, controlling the life that is happening. The 'I' claims responsibility at any opportunity for actions and thoughts.

There is no separate 'I'
There is only the recurring thought 'I'
'I am doing this'
'I forgot that'
'I am scared'
'I love you'
That, when believed in-creates the illusion of a separate 'I' inside the body.

4) How does it feel to see this?
What a relief! I don't exist! My worst nightmare is...not a nightmare! It is funny! And I always never existed!
There is a spaciousness, it is hard to describe in words but that is how I would put it. A 'surrendering' into the moment, as it comes, but there is no one to surrender. I could say acceptance too but there is no one here to accept either.

The 'I' that was seeking so desperately for the truth is not there.

Awareness is not personal anymore, there is no 'awarer'. 'I' cannot even attach to awareness. Awareness or aliveness is a better way to say it. Aliveness is here and it is not personal. Nothing owns it.
The nothingness was always here, but the 'I' thoughts were in the way! It seems like something has flipped around to the other side or the tables have turned, reality is weighing in on NOTHINGNESS's favour.

Life is the same but there is a biggerness of the nothing, and a smallerness to the thoughts.
Thought has nothing to stick to. I understand what I read when people say thought and 'I'ness becomes less sticky! Thought has nothing to stick to. It just slips like water off a ducks back.
I couldn't believe in 'I' even if I tried!

Before the loss of identification with the 'I' happened, there was a persistent underlying unease or 'tightness' almost like an avoidance of something. That has gone.

There is no urgency, less thoughts of insecurity. Where is the I that is insecure? It isn't!!! :) There is no I that wants life to change in any monumental way. The 'I' still has niggles and annoyances, the personality is still there but they float on by.

Arguments, disagreements happen. But they happen and go. The echo or reverberation of grievances is lost. Things happen and aren't replayed over and over and over in the mind anymore. Things just aren't taken to heart. Guilt is lessened.

There are less thoughts of the past and future. In fact, at the moment, less thoughts in general. Longer periods of silence without habitual thought to fill up the space.

Life is coming from another angle...
The pattern of thoughts arising has changed a little. There seems to be less thoughts about needing to control the future and outcome of events and situations. A lot of repetitive habitual fearful worrisome thoughts (about the future) are not occurring with such aggression and frequency as in the past.
There is less resistance and less labelling of any emotion that is or was seen as unpleasant by the mind such as anxiety or fear.

It is hard to remember what it was like, to believe in a separate 'ME'. Even though it wasn't that long ago. It is hazy, like a dream-did it really happen? Was a ME ever here? It seems like the 'I' never really existed. It seems very shadowy, like all that ME ME ME DRAMA!!! that seemed so real was really just a dream.

Before I saw I didn't exist I wondered if anyone would notice I had changed if/when it happened. Nope! Hahahaha! I am exactly the same person to them, as I was before. No halo! ;)


5)How would you describe it to somebody who has never heard about this illusion but is curious about it.
Hmmmm...
You are not who you think you are! Facing this illusion means it is possible to lose everything you thought you were.

You are not the body, yes? You are not the mind, yes? Then where are you? Where is this I, that you believe you are?

I would try not to speculate about 'enlightenment' or put any idea into their heads, but to gently prod, and ask them to find the controller, the Doer inside.
'Liberation' nothing like you think it will be like! :)

And drop all expectations.

It will be what it is, for you and if you are prepared to accept that then go ahead!
I would say...keep living in the illusion if you are having a happy dream. Then again, people who are having a happy dream don't seem to look for the truth of reality as much as people who may be fed up with it. Maybe you have to be fed up with the stories and melodrama to some extent.

I don't think I would encourage meditation retreats. That just is dancing around the truth of no self. Don't play spiritual games, unless all you want to do is have fun playing spiritual games.
I would advise not to beat around the bush, but to go directly to the source of the illusion and discover what has always not existed. The self. Look inside. Try to locate yourself. :) I would ask them, If the only 'I' in you is just a thought...can a thought think?

I would highly recommend having a guide who sees that you do not exist, and can step you through, very much! I think the mind plays too many tricks to see if you are alone. There are too many circles you can go in. Too many knots the mind would like to tie itself in, just to avoid facing the fact that the 'I' the mind created does not exist.

This truth is nothing another person can intellectually convince you of. You must look with your own volition and determination, and be willing to find out you do not exist.


6) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look? Can you describe the moment when seeing happened?
I think the prod..."I is a THOUGHT. Can thoughts think?" hit home somehow at the time. Although I didn't notice it. I kept rolling that over throughout the day, and carried it throughout the subsequent days.
I do not recall a specific moment or instant in time or any AHA moment really. I didn't know it had happened until it was too late! It almost happened in the background...as if the nothingness slowly grew, and pushed the 'I' identification over the edge while the 'I' was asleep!

Just like a transforming chrysalis has no idea what it is happening until it is a butterfly! It just, kind of HAPPENED of its own accord. And the butterfly can't really remember much of being a caterpillar...
The fact that there is no 'I' sank in over a couple of days...I think it is still sinking in-Ooh, yes, there is still nothing there!


7) Anything to add?
I am so very grateful for your constant guidance, your faith in the fact 'I' did not exist, your love, feedback and support.

AROHANUI (lots of love) as we say here in New Zealand
Love Helen

Ilona 

Beautiful! Loved reading your answers. You sound clear and properly through. That was such joy to read this.
Could I put this on my blog, so I could invite you to LU Facebook groups, where you can meet new friends and share how it goes for you.

If you prefer, I can change your name or leave just an initial. This conversation may be of help to someone else. :)

Lots of love.
Arohanui

Greetings from uk. <3


Helen 

Dear Ilona,
I'm happy you enjoyed my answers!
Of course you are most welcome to use anything I have written in any way shape, or form on your blog or anywhere else you may like :)
Reading conversations with other people helped me immensely before our conversation :)
In particular the conversation from The Gateless Gate book with Jamie-very funny, and good at dashing all glorified expectations.
And you can use my name too...I don't feel very attached to it any more!!!
I would really love to make contact with other people who have 'stepped' through also at LU.

Lots and lots of thank you's!
Arohanui always, Helen :)

A Fierce Request From Portugal

Cristiana
Nov 30

Dear Ilona,
I am so excited to write you! I am so fortunate to have found you!
I've been a seeker since I was 15 or so (I'm now 36) when I went to
the movies and saw "Little Buddha". Since then the word
"Enlightenment" was a bug that started to eat me up little by little.
An obsession! I read every book you can think of, of several
traditions and cultures, I listened to almost every Satsang teacher
available in the internet.

Had several "awakenings", with a lot of fear in the mix ( felt that
"I" didn't know if I was dead or alive since suddenly I felt I didn't
exist - THAT made me feel real terror, since I felt I was dying...
Before that, some years ago, I had a talk in skype with a teacher:
when he asked me what was this I , I just freezed, I noticed there was
absolutely NOTHING! But I wasn't mature enough... it didn't last and I
went back to the same "I".

Nowadays I have been stuck and quitting of all search, with no more
motives to keep listening to the same stuff over and over again, with
no more hope, sad.

But about 3 days ago I watched your interview in the Buddha at The Gas
Pump, went to the LU site, read the book Gateless Gatecrashers, went
through most of your blog.. and guess what: I'M ON FIRE!!!! Once again
I feel alive and want to be free! I just couldn't believe how many
people are actually waking up with you amazing work!

Please work with me! I want you to be my guide and help me to get
through the gate.

I'll be waiting for your reply anytime you can work with me, thank you so much!
Love, Cristiana
.............................

Good morning Ilona,
Thank you for responding so quickly, I truly appreciate it.
I'm here typing these words without knowing what to say next. It's
difficult to put all these things into words... So, let's see what it
comes out... I'll try to answer your questions the best I can.

1. What do you expect that happens when you wake up? I expect that all suffering falls away completely and I become free to
be in the flow of what i truly am, without resisting Life, my true
Nature... Yesterday I read somewhere that "God is dreaming S/He is not
God": is this true? What I truly am is God? That "I" as a separate
entity do not exist? I can see that there is no "I" to be found but it
doesn't feel real yet, only an intellectual understanding...

2. What is awakening going to give you? Hopefully it is going to give me an Infinite Love for everyone and everything, true compassion and supreme understanding of how
everything works without thinking about it but just Knowing IT, SEEING
IT with all my heart, and acting accordingly.

3. What you do not want it to be like. I hope i remain functional in society. I don't want my awakening to be a division between "me" and "other people". I just wrote this but I
have no idea what it means!!! Maybe you will know what I mean...

Thank you so much, Ilona! I so much appreciate your help. I'm here
with you with all my being.


...................……
how does it feel to leave the expectations behind?
I had to read your email several times for it to sink in.

Yes, I am ready to leave all expectations behind, except there is sill a resistance when you say I am not God: but isn't everything God? isn't God all there is? How about when they say " I am THAT" ?
These questions are coming up because, even though I've seen there is nothing behind the "I", I still somehow believe that I am an I.

Also, when you say "no, no no,. there is no you at all as in zero. i does not exist in reality."
I feel a bit frustrated and a bit sceptic... Am I just a puppet in the hands of Awareness? And what is this Awareness, what is this indivisible One Life? Isn't It my SELF? I want to know THIS more than
anything!

So Yes, I am completely ready to go beyond any doubts that may come up
and are still inside, and move on with our investigation. More than
anything I want the Truth, I really want to know what IT IS! And I
trust you completely, so let's go! Let's go for IT!

P.S. when you say:

before we can proceed further, I need you to leave all expectations just
here. Nothing that you expect is going to be like you expect. You will be
taking a fresh look at what is already obvious.

Seeing does not change the seen. Same way like you can not change the
reflection in the mirror.
I feel like I know nothing and that makes me feel insecure: like, will
I ever get THIS? Will I pass through the gate?
I trust YOU, what I don't trust is myself. Will I have the capacity to
truly SEE all the way through?

Much gratitude for your patience and for you being here with


…………………..........................................
100 or so emails later...
....................................................................


Ilona

How is it going Cristiana?

Hehe, of course you can not find a sense of separation as it does not exist.  How can you feel separation, it is just a thought about it and this is what I wanted you to see.  You can imagine stuff and feel it as real, but when you look, there is nothing there, never was.

The quickest way out of the box is seeing that there is no box.  There is nothing to heal or release. And when stuff comes up it is here to be noticed. If you get into the story and try to release, look again- what is there that owns all this conditioning, where is the sticky point?

Write to me.
Much love.

Cristiana 
Jan 10

Hi Ilona,
How is it going? I really don't know. I seem to be inside a dream, not
being able to wake up... I am here in front of this computer, not
knowing what to write to you... I feel very self-conscious when I'm
around people: yesterday I went out dancing and while I was dancing I
felt very uncomfortable at times, feeling observed all the time... If
I really saw through the me story then this wouldn't happen, right? I
would feel ok inside my skin, wouldn't I? It's as if there is a
witness always observing what is going on in my life and taking notice
when I don't know how to be around people... You ask me what is the
sticking point, well it seems to be my constant belief that I am this
character Cristiana, walking around through life, being myself, with
all my unique characteristics... It just seems unbelievable that the
other day I saw through it all and felt so happy about it and now I'm
here again, believing the story. Maybe the seeing didn't get deep
enough? I don't know what else to say so that I can help you to help
me... Have no idea what else to do but my desire to see through all
this is still here, I'm not giving up, so that's a good sign...


you know, I think I can put what I'm living into words: when I'm alone
everything sort of feels like it's flowing spontaneously, but when I'm
relating with people it is somewhat weird and uncomfortable because I
can see them playing roles and believing those roles unconsciously
(and so they seem to be free, not self-conscious)... when I feel the
opposite: I am extremely self-conscious about everything I do and say
to the point that I don't know what my role is supposed to be, making
me loose all spontaneity while relating with others, thus feeling
imprisoned in my own bodymind... Does this make any sense at all? do
you know what I'm saying?
I don't know if telling you this helps in this process or not, I hope
it does. It is just a conclusion from what I wrote in my previous
email.


Maybe all that I'm trying to say in my 2 previous emails is that I am
not experiencing an undivided seeing, but there is a division: the
seer and the seen; the witness and what is witnessed. And while there
is this division in my experience, then I will always experience
conflict. Could this be it? that this division is the cause of my not
feeling ok while being with "others"? I wish I was in that state where
they say "there is no other"...
God, I just can't believe that it's been more than a month now with
this process and this tough nut of myself just doesn't wanna crack
itself open! Your patience is just so admirable, Ilona!

Ilona
Jan 10


I hear you, you see a gap between the seer and the seen. Look right there, is there a gap?

When sound is heard, is there a hearer and the heard or it can not be separated? Find out.

Is there a gap between witnesser, witnessing and witnessed?
Is there a gap between breather and breathing?

You think you are a character. Are you a character? Are you trapped in a story? Without though, is there a you, they, others?
Is there 'us', 'them'? What do you see?

As for my patience, thank you for sticking with this. The longest conversation I had was half a year, so one month or two, np. As long as this needs to take to play out, till there is shiny clarity.

Much love.

Cristiana 
Jan 11

I see where you're getting at: this division being felt is because of
my identification with thoughts, isn't it? If I don't think I'm a
character, then there is no character, no being trapped in a story is
experienced. The feeling that there are others is when, for example, I
think "what are they thinking about me". If I don't think such
thoughts like that, then there is only experience. I can see that
separation is felt when I engage and prolong these thoughts like "are
they looking at me? I hope I'm causing a nice impression" or "I am
afraid I have nothing interesting to say"...I see how these chain of
thoughts stop me from having a spontaneous natural interaction with
others.

I'm listening to sounds now and the hearer and the heard are happening
at the same time, but are they the same? Again if I identify with
thought "I am listening to this sound", then there is clearly
division, that it seems there are two things happening: a sound being
heard and the hearer of the sound. But if I just don't engage in any
thought and just hear the sound, then there is just listening,
hearing, no object and subject, but just a verb: an occurring, a
movement, an event.

Breather and breathing: I don't identify with the thought "I am this
body breathing", then there is just breathing, one action, one thing
happening.

So what now? where do I go from here? I will try to stay tuned to
whatever thought pops up in my mind and try to notice if I am
following it or not. And at the same time I will try to focus on aware
presence every time I remember? How should I look at my experience on a
daily basis so that I can get over this process as soon as possible? I
am so eager to end this process but I will try to take it easy and
just try to enjoy each moment as it comes...

Talk to you more tomorrow, goodnight and thank you for sticking around too :))


Cristiana 
Jan 11

I read your email again and noticed the word "gap", I didn't pay close
attention to it the first time i read it.

>> Is there a gap between witnesser, witnessing and witnessed?
>> Is there a gap between breather and breathing?

No gap whatsoever! there is no gap. it is happening as one!
The supposed gap between "me and they" is more difficult to see as
illusion though, but I will try to keep seeing into it... It is easier
to see with objects than with people, I wonder why... maybe because
living moving objects as people seem to have a life of their own, as I
seem to have a life of my own... It is amazing how separation is so
ingrained in society... everywhere we look, there's the apparition of
separation: "me and you", "they and we"...

Ilona 
Jan 11

Bingo! There is no gap, nothing that life is happening to.

If you look closely what is moving people, are they all moving by their own free will? Independently from environment and each other?

Me and they are only in thoughts.
Without thoughts it's just movement, sensations, perceptions, life living itself.
You can only experience your own thoughts about what others think, it's your projection.  All that is going in imagination- images of self worth, "me and them".

There is only this, now-ness, sensations, perceptions, thinking, feeling, is-ing, being, experiencing. Thoughts about what is also happen in the now, but thoughts are not reality. Thoughts tell a story.

Is anything personal in life?
What makes something personal?


Lots of love.

Cristiana 
Jan 11

The movements of people depend on what is happening in the environment
around them, so nothing is independent from anything, everything is
interconnected.
Thoughts are not reality, yes. They are just describing, labeling what
is happening, making up stories, stories that may not be true but just
interpretations of a fictional character in the story.

> Is anything personal in life?
> What makes something personal?

I don't really know... it seems to be personal if you listen to the
stories in your head, your interpretation of what is happening... so I
guess that what makes something personal are the thoughts that occur
in relation to what is taking place in the now. If there are no
thoughts, life becomes very universal, meaning that life goes on with
or without personal input. Identification with the stories in our head
make everything personal.
I feel though that everything seem to be happening to "me". Is this
just a story that I tell myself? It must be, because from the
"other's" perspective everything is happening to "them". This me point
of view is such a strong story being told over and over since
childhood that it feels like being true... I'm so looking forward in
viewing everything from a universal perspective...

Sending love.

Ilona
Jan 11

to Cristiana
What happens if instead of looking from the angle that life happens to me and them you see that life happening AS this? All arising spontaneously as one flow.

How does that feel?

Sending love.


Cristiana 
Jan 12

It feels much better than feeling or imagining to be separate. It is
just so tiring to feel separate from the rest. It is a breath of fresh
air to consider life happening AS this... So, "this" is it? Whatever
is happening now is "it"? The truth is whatever is happening in the
now? including the thoughts about it? Then, it is irrelevant if I'm
looking for the truth, isn't it? since whatever is happening is always
the truth? Then why am I searching? why am I looking for my true
nature, if there is only this moment and nothing else? I just find it
incredible that this moment is all there is... But then again each
moment is fresh and new, so the truth is always evolving in each new
moment? It makes sense that it is all this moment, otherwise it would
be separate...
I don't even know what I'm writing anymore! I hope I'm making some
sense. I'll get some sleep now. Will talk more tomorrow.
Lots of love.


Ilona 
Jan 13

Yes, there is only now and experiencing whatever is happening this moment. Right now, is the a boundary between here and there? Is there a centre? Is there an experiencer of now or just experiencing happening as this?

Whatever is happening now IS. Whatever is happening in imagination is only a story about IT. And story too is included in what is happening now.
Is anything missing?
Much love.

Cristiana 
Jan 13

Nothing is missing, but a thought comes now saying "This can't be it,
something must be missing! It is not this simple!". But this is just a
thought and it is, like you say, also included in what is happening
now.
There is no boundary between anything in what is happening now, no
center, no experiencer, just experience as a whole happening. If there
were an experiencer, then there would be not only one but many
centers, as there are many people/ experiencers and this just wouldn't
make any sense, as there would be separation everywhere. Again, I am
not making much sense, being carried away with investigating this with
thinking, always looking for something complex to play with. The truth
must be simple. I have to let this sink in, that the truth is the pure
simplicity of this moment and nothing more.

Ilona 
Jan 14

> "This can't be it,
> something must be missing! It is not this simple!"

Find what is hiding behind this thought, what would be lost, what feels threatened by simplicity.

Cristiana 
Jan 14

What is behind this thought is the fear that I'll realize that I am
really nothing and that this means that all my life searching for the
truth has no significance at all; the fear to recognize that all
effort has been in vain, since what Is is always the same, it never
changed and it never will, so It never depends on any effort.
What would be lost? The person I think I am would be lost, it would
disappear, leaving me with the sensation of having no roots, no
ground. But I understand intellectually that I have nothing to fear
because, as they say, Presence/ Awareness is the ground of being.
What feels threatened by simplicity is this character Cristiana that
is afraid it is going to disappear.

Ilona
Jan 14


Can you look up and see if the person can get lost? Will the story stop?
Can something imagined cease existing?

Was it you that was searching? If habit of searching falls of, is it a loss?
Or is it a goal of searching? See if mind is ready to relax, just ask it. Thank it for being such good mind. Give it a hug.

It's ok to relax.

Cristiana
Jan 14

I'm just smiling away, feeling relieved. Your pointings are just so
great, Ilona! :)))The person can not get lost, the story continues to
exist. Cristiana is still here :) that doesn't change, does it? What
it changes is where you put your focus on, but even this focus is not
caused by "me": it just happens! Everything in this moment is
happening on its own: Cristiana doesn't have to do anything at all for
something to happen, Cristiana is then not in charge, she never was in
charge: life is just flowing by and so is Cristiana, she is flowing by
as life moves through her. You ask "can something imagined cease to
exist?" well, if the control Cristiana thought she had was just
imagined, it doesn't cease to exist because it never existed in the
first place. There is no person here in control. Life is in control,
always and in all ways.

My mind has been so busy all these years trying to find the ultimate
meaning to existence, trying so hard to find the truth that now it is
strange to let it all drop away, all this effort. "What should I do
then?" - asks the mind.

> Was it you that was searching? If habit of searching falls of, is it a loss?

The mind was searching but what made the mind to search? Well, the
same thing that makes the thoughts appear and then disappear again!
If habit of searching falls of, then this falling of is exactly what
needs to happen since it is happening, and it is not a loss, it is
simply what is happening.

> Or is it a goal if searching? See if mind is ready to relax, just ask it. Thank it for being such good mind. Give it a hug.
> It's ok to relax.

Taking a deep breath now :) It is ok to relax :) this sounds so good
:))) it is all I want, really. But never though of it this way... It's
like all my life I've been looking for this: to just relax, to really
deeply relax and just be completely comfortable in my own skin.
Right now, at this moment, the mind is open and ready to relax,
although immediately thoughts come up, like "This won't last!"...
Isn't it amazing how the mind is always ready for a good fight, to go
to battle, but never to relax. The funny thing is that the mind is
fighting to find peace! What a contradiction, such crazy games the
mind likes to play.

I'm asking the mind now if it's ready to just relax and let go of all
this searching... The mind is receptive, it wants to stop and just
relax, yes. It has been for sure a good mind, keeping itself busy all
the time, with all this defending an imagined person, searching the
truth of this person, in all ways possible. It's ok to relax...
Another big breath coming up... I definitely feel more relaxed...
"What now? What needs to be done now?", the mind is asking... "Just
relax now, it is ok, nothing needs to be taken cared of, relax.." -
says another thought. Oh god, how addicted the mind is to try to be
always in control of some process that it thinks it needs to be
happening.

I'm listening to the mind with patience and love now "It's ok to let
go of all imagined control and just relax..." The mind is addicted to
"doing", it has to learn to be, to just be... And "being" is always
here. It is understood that anything that needs to be done
spontaneously arises in whatever is happening now, so the mind doesn't
need to be always looking for the next thing to DO, but can just
relax, just BE, and trust that the next thing to do will be revealed
in whatever happens in the environment moment by moment. It is just a
matter of the mind to really SEE This simplicity of what Is so that it
can finally relax and truly enjoy the flow...

Ilona
Jan 14

Wonderful, Cristiana.
Keep relaxing and let this sink in.

We'll talk more tomorrow.
Big hug :))))


Cristiana 
Jan 14

:))) Ok :)) big hug to you too!!


Cristiana 
Jan 15

Hi, my sweet friend, just checking in to let you know how is
everything going today. But first of all I just want to say a million
thank you's! you have been so kind and ruthless (what a powerful,
unusual and beautiful combination :)! ), you have been helping me so
much in this process, how can I ever pay it forward for all this
energy and complete dedication?!...

Today I continue to be in relaxing mode since yesterday. Thoughts come
and go, the mind tries sometimes to take the front seat again, but
there is the realization that it never was in the first seat in the
first place! The mind is just a passenger that in the past pretended
to be guiding this imaginary me around, but now it is so clear that
only life is in control and guiding the whole thing, the whole of
life. My focus is now on relaxing in awareness... it's like I'm seeing
everything for the first time: that is why in Zen they always talk
about the necessity of always having a beginner's mind, to see and
live everything as if for the first time; when we do that, the focus
seems to go immediately to the awareness, to the space where
everything is happening in.

Only now, zazen or simply sitting still, takes a whole new meaning,
the only meaning intended before but only now it is understood: just
relaxing as unmovable awareness, no matter what is happening inside
it. That's why they say that the simple act of just sitting still is
itself enlightenment, and not a process to get somewhere. This makes
so much sense now. I'm reading and watching what I used to read and
watch before in a whole new way now: not to get somewhere but to
simply let it sink deeper and to remain curious about existence (this
curiosity doesn't go away, on the contrary, it grows more because you
want to be able to dance with life in a more harmonious way...).
In general, everything goes on as before, the difference is that my
relationship with what goes on is different: there's more calmness,
not taking things so personally when relating to people, letting
everything flow by without the mind's trying to control the course of
anything; I am more aware of this presence that let's everything in,
including all the chain of "I" thoughts that are trying to come back
so that the "me" gets to play the boss again... but "I" know better
now: now I trust this awareness more than I trust the thoughts that
appear in it; now I'm learning how to let it all go and just relax in
the flow...

Any recommendations? Maybe things I need to do or know in order for
the relaxation to deepen more?

Much love, endless gratitude and another huge hug!! thank you thank
you thank you!!! :))))


Cristiana 
Jan 17

Dear Ilona, didn't get your reply yet but checking in again...
Yesterday and today things haven't changed much. I continue to be
relaxed, although once in a while thoughts try to get my attention but
I don't seem to buy into them anymore. Sometimes I wonder if this is
really it, if I really woke up from the dream of separation. Sometimes
the mind tries to convince me that this simple ordinary moment isn't
it, but I try to just relax in the moment and the mind seems to relax
a bit too.
Sending love and much gratitude.

Ilona
Jan 17

Hi Cristiana :)
I'm happy to hear that all experience is getting smoother.
Can you say, that shift has happened or is it still happening?
Can you confirm, that yes, illusion of separation has been seen through.

What is the I in your last email ?

Sending a hug

Cristiana 
Jan 17

3 days ago, when I answered all your pointings, when you asked me if
my mind was ready to relax, I felt a shift happened. But as the days
pass the shift feeling seems to dissolve, so I'm not really sure. How
can I be sure? If I'm asking this question, then maybe it didn't
happened or is still happening, I really don't know. I felt so sure 3
days ago till today... It's like I felt a shift but then
routine/ordinary life kicks in and the feeling of the shift gets lost,
is this normal? But did something got lost? I don't think so... You
ask me if illusion of separation has been seen through, well I
think I did, I saw that I am not my mind, all this chain of thoughts
called "me", but then this me seem to be here again, I don't know... I
feel like I got it, that I passed the gate, so to speak, but there is
still this "I" that I use writing this email... What is this "I"? Is
it still an identification with mind, the chain of thoughts, or is it
just the use of language in order to communicate? I don't feel like I'm
identifying with the content of mind anymore but does this mean that
I'm liberated from the illusion of separation? I can't be sure: I
can't say no, but something in me hesitates to say yes either. The
word "liberation" is just so big, it has so much impact, and I feel
like what I'm living is so normal that I think that this "normal life"
can't be it... Do you see my doubt? I don't know how else to put it...


Ilona
Jan 17

Ordinary life is all that is, plain, simple, just this. So they say- chop wood, carry water.. No magic.
Yes, what is I used in language?
And what does word liberation point to?
Is there an I /me to get liberated? What gets liberated and from what?


Much love to you.

Cristiana 
Jan 18

The I used in language refers to the bodymind, to a particular
expression of consciousness.
The word liberation points to living in the complete freedom of being
a unique expression of life with no hesitation, guilt, doubts or
suffering, just living freely and spontaneously in whatever happens in
the flow of now.

Before liberation there seems to be a me that seeks liberation, that
seeks to be free from the separation. During the shift of liberation,
it is realized that the me that seeks liberation is itself the
illusion of separation. All there is is this mysterious aware presence
that is having experiences... so what gets liberated must be awareness
itself, it gets liberated from the identification with a me, with a
separate person. This is tricky this answer, because it is also seen
that awareness was, is and always will be free. But somehow this play
of someone trying to get liberated from feeling separate happens to
and in the field of always liberated awareness...

Yes, ordinary life is just this, whatever is happening, always plain
and simple. Maybe I expected more, some magic, so I'm learning to
appreciate the simplicity of it. I guess what happens is that I feel
this great enthusiasm, a great excitement in some aha moments that
turn the "ordinary" into "magical", "special" moments, you see? And
then there is this expectation that this exciting magical feelings
towards what is happening will somehow stay forever. And when this
excitement of feeling that there is no separation fades away, like
everything does, when ordinary life is felt to be ordinary again, then
there comes this thought that I lost the "Seeing", that the shift
didn't happen after all. But what is important is to really see that
all there is is awareness and that identification with thought causes
the sensation of separation, right? I guess this is what is happening
in my process: that I see through the illusion of a separate me, I
feel in that moment a great excitement, and somehow I identify that
excitement with the seeing itself; and when the excitement fades away,
I feel like there is no seeing anymore, but just ordinary life
happening as before. How to get past this? and settle in with the flow
of ordinary life? this is a silly question! the flowing with the
ordinary life is already happening, all the time. So I just need to
keep on relaxing and not identifying with any thought that comes?

Ilona
Jan 20

How is it going, Cristiana? How is that ordinary life, is there still seeking for something magical to happen?
How are you feeling lately?

Big hug.

Cristiana 
Jan 20

Hi Ilona :) everything is going smoothly. I'm felling quite neutral
lately, letting all happen naturally, I'm not worried about anything
in particular. Seeking for something magical in ordinary life seems to
be falling away... all seeking is dropping. The mind is more quiet, it
is not calling for attention. Thoughts come up about whether this that
is happening is all normal and "right" but as they are not engaged
these thoughts drop away too. And that's it, not much to report.
Sending a big hug to you too :)


Ilona
Jan 20

That is a great report! I see you are settling in nicely..
Can you say, that yes, shift has happened and illusion of separation has been seen for what it is- an illusion.

Cristiana 
Jan 22

Sorry for taking so long to reply, Ilona, but my grandmother died
yesterday... These past few days have been long and a bit tough but
I've been strangely detached at times, not resisting, as if nothing
was happening to me, although of course sadness and crying happened.
And thinking about death and why things are the way they are are also
naturally coming up... But there's no getting around it, is there? I
mean, life is here, it throws situations at you and you can't escape
it... I used to think a while back that being enlightened all the
problems would just go away, they would never happen again and life
would become all roses with no thorns. But life just doesn't care
about all these concepts in your head, everything that needs to happen
happens anyway, despite if you're so called liberated or not...
You ask me if shift has happened, well I think it did, the illusion of
separation has been seen to be an illusion, but as the days go by,
it's as if I feel like nothing ever happened, like life is flowing by
as before... the only thing I notice is different is that I don't feel
like I'm seeking anymore, which feels a little weird sometimes, like I
don't really know what to do with myself anymore... Maybe this is a
period of readjustment to a new way of living?

Sending much love.


Ilona
Jan 22

Dear Cristiana, I'm sending my condolences and a big warm hug. It's not an easy time when a loved one leaves this life. My heart is with you...

Thinking about death and meeting death is giving different perspective on life. It takes time to deal with departure and lots of feelings gets stirred. I'm so sorry..

Yes, life is happening no matter what labels we give ourselves, liberated of not, life goes on. Seeing that nothing is personal gives that space inside, detachment as you say.
There is a little place where you can look now- is life throwing situations at you or it's just happening as this, as these situations, to no one, impersonal, free falling, spontaneous happening.

I'm so glad to hear that resistance to things arising is no longer an issue. Let me know when you are ready for the final questions.

Big hug and tons of love your way.
((((((Cristiana))))))


Cristiana 
Jan 23

:) thank you for your kind words, sweet Ilona, I am feeling peaceful today...

> There is a little place where you can look now- is life throwing situations at you or it's just happening as this, as these situations, to no one, impersonal, free falling, spontaneous happening.

This is a great pointing and it makes me wonder if I really did see
through illusion or not: there is a little doubt hanging around, maybe
hiding some sort of identification still, some me trying to hold on...
But I'm ready for the final questions: answering them will for sure
disclosure if there is still some sticking points or not. I really
hope I'm through... although I'm going to miss this long conversation
of ours :))... When I talk to you it seems the sense of aliveness in
me gets stronger... I wonder what will happen when we stop talking...
Hopefully the seeing will stay intact and keeps deepening? I know I
will have to rely solely on myself, I am the one who has to live my
own life...but I was really enjoying having you around...

Ilona
Jan 23

I'm always here for you Cristiana, I enjoy talking and exploring too. You can write to me anytime when you feel like and I will answer.
Ok, so here are the final questions:

Can you confirm, that yes, the illusion of separation have been seen through?
Is there a separate self, I, me? Was there ever? How about right now?
If you had to describe this to someone, what would you say this is? What is the illusion exactly?

Just write answering these questions and add anything you think relevant.

Cristiana
Jan 24

> Can you confirm, that yes, the illusion of separation have been seen through?

I've seen that there is no one or nothing separate from this one aware
aliveness, this one consciousness, this one space where everything
happens in and as. So yes, the illusion of separation have been seen
through, although sometimes there is the tendency to fall into the
thought of "I", that something is happening to a someone, but it is
recognized it is just a thought, a tendency that is gradually fading
away. I have to say though that some resistance is being felt
answering these questions, this question in particular, as if what is
left of some tendencies to identify again as a someone is feeling
threatened by answering "Yes, the illusion of separation have been
seen through", as if answering this, there is no going back, no
turning point... does this make any sense?

> Is there a separate self, I, me? Was there ever? How about right now?

There is nothing separate, there never was, so there is naturally no
me anywhere but just experience taking place, moment by moment. Right
now, writing these words is what is taking place, listening to the
sounds in the kitchen, someone making dinner downstairs, it is all the
reality that is flowing now, this is IT... so all there is right now
is inclusion of all that is taking place naturally in this aware
space, there is nothing separate happening, it is all one thing
happening at the same time.

> If you had to describe this to someone, what would you say this is? What is the illusion exactly?

The illusion is identifying with the thought that I am always separate
from what is taking place here and now, and from everyone and
everything. All our lives we've been taught that each one of us is a
separate individual, which makes us feel contracted and unhappy almost
all the time, causing us, sooner or later, to end this suffering by
searching in the "outside", in the world, for some relief, for the end
of this suffering, for the end of this constant feeling of not being
comfortable in our skin, relating to others and ourselves. But at some
point, life show us, through some situation or through someone who
have seen through this illusion already, that the answer to end this
contracted way of living is simply to look to what is, always have
been, and always will be present: our true nature, our own awareness
is always here, now, at this moment, all the time and realizing this,
the contracted, tense mind begins to relax and to stop its frantic
search for an answer. The answer is right here right now, so simple...
and the mind understood the solutions to this existential problem to
be so complicated, so complex and exhausting. Finally, one begins to
relax and the identification of being a separate someone begins to
fall away, to some people in a fast, sudden way, to others in a more
gradual, subtle way.


Ilona
Jan 25

Yes, nice. As for resistance to answer, what is there that feels threatened? What is it that can be lost if the answer is YES?
What is here that wants to hold on?

Cristiana 
Jan 25

> Yes, nice. As for resistance to answer, what is there that feels threatened? What is it that can be lost if the answer is YES?

The thought "I am this person" feels threatened... but it is just a
thought... a thought doesn't feel or think, hmmm.... If the answer is
YES, then the whole house of cards will for sure crumble down: the
house of cards being what remains of the identification with being a
separate being... What can be lost? the whole idea that somewhere
inside there is still some part of me that feels separate.

> What is here that wants to hold on?

Just a bunch of occasional thoughts, like "This is still not over, it
is not that simple! you have to still keep going!", or "you will never
get to the end of this process! As long as you live you will have to
keep searching, and maybe some day the confirmation that you are free
will come". All these are just thoughts coming from a mind that is
shedding all its tension and belief systems that no longer serve this
new way of living of not believing all these thoughts that are just
falling away, being dissolved by just relaxing into the moment...


Cristiana
Jan 25

Hi again, Ilona :)
I've just finished watching some videos of Pamela Wilson and things
are just falling more into place. She said at some point that this
that we are doesn't need an experience to confirm it, that all it
takes is one time (just like you say - that once seen, it can not be
unseen)... that we all seem to have high standards for all this
awakening stuff... once you have an experience and get it that it's
all one thing, one awareness, then that experience can rest and fall
away too. This was so refreshing to hear, because I guess that's where
my sticking point is: I try to maintain the experience of seeing
through the illusion of separation, and when the experience starts to
fall away (like all experiences do) I conclude that I lost the seeing
and that I'm not liberated after all, see what I mean? But the seeing
is still here, I know now that I am not separate from life, that YES,
I've seen through the illusion, but somehow my mind is still expecting
to keep seeing exactly like I did in my previous experience when I
first saw it, but of course the seeing gets "normalized", it's just
each ordinary moment... nothing special, just This, whatever is
happening.

Pamela also said something interesting: that the mind keeps coming
back with "wrong views", limited thoughts, so that it can have Satsang
with awareness... isn't this just beautiful? so the thoughts, in this
unfoldment after awakening, keep coming back until the mind gets more
and more peace , until the mind finally get it that it is itself
awareness, just playing around and liberating stuff that needs to be
liberated...

I'm just so lucky to have found you, so grateful that life made me
contact you and have this amazing conversation :))
Lots of love !! and looking forward to your reply.


Ilona
Jan 26

Pamela is great! If you ever have a chance to meet her in person, go for it.  She is most gentle woman with aura of goddess, i love her.

So I hear from you : YES, but...
Mmmm

Look into that 'but' part, really open it. See what it is protecting. What is behind that sensation?

Also, examine this- what if, the seeing did happen and now it's only a matter of clearing up the debris. If you imagine tsunami hitting the shore and how much damage it does to the land and structures, same here- a wave happens, after it there is a lot to clean up, it's just how it goes. It may take time to do this work- situation arises, thoughts say this or that- checking with truth- yes or no- letting go- coming back to peace. The experience of seeing it first time can not be repeated, not it needs to, every moment is fresh. And every moment is a new opportunity to see it. And every moment is right here right now.

You may also look up on YouTube Shinzen Young and his explanation on Zen ox. He puts this no self thing in a bit of perspective, so you can see it from wider angle.

Write to me what you find digging around this 'but...'


Much love.


Cristiana
Jan 26

Thank you for telling me about the Zen ox videos, I really enjoyed
them, they are profound, clear and direct.
As for Pamela, she is really great. I can't believe I stumbled upon
her teachings only yesterday, I watched all videos available! she sure
has a beautiful, refreshing, strong but serene glow about her...

> Look into that 'but' part, really open it. See what it is protecting. What is behind that sensation?

The "but" part seem to be a way the remaining limited thoughts are
using to protect themselves, to stick around, to pretend nothing
happened. But something did happen: "stream entry" happened, and the
noticing of this flow is happening, moment by moment. The moment I
first noticed it, it was so fresh and alive, you are right, it can not
be repeated, but, like you say, every moment is a new opportunity to
see it... So this "but" is like a distraction, the last trick of the
mind... The mind, though, is tired of playing tricks and games, so I
have the feeling this will fall away soon. So, why is the mind trying
to pretend nothing happened? I really don't know, it's a little
confusing because I can feel the mind just wants to abandon all its
battles and just come to rest at the heart, at feeling at peace and
ease... I really like your tsunami metaphor: I think it is what is
happening yes. The mind was relieved when the seeing happened but a
couple of days later it tried to resurrect the "I" and keep its old
ways going and it feels like "ouch!". I guess it does take time for
the mind to learn how to navigate the flow of life in this relaxed new
way that was felt when the illusion of self was first seen through. It
feels so good to trust and keep relaxing, moment by moment... so much
energy it takes to keep doubting, the bodymind just gets tense,
contracted, unhappy. I'm trying to spend some time everyday just to be
still and relax, and allow this easiness to flood my entire nervous
system: it will probably convince the mind that it is ok to relax, to
abandon its tendencies to control, to protect, to resist...


Cristiana 
Jan 27

Hi Ilona,
I'm writing again because more thoughts around the "but" just came to
the surface: I suddenly realized that there is a part inside that
feels like it doesn't deserve to accept and enjoy that YES. There is a
part of the mind where it feels like it still needs to work hard to
earn the feeling of being relaxed and knowing that the goal has been
reached. If it admits that the goal has been reached, it means it has
nothing more to do, nothing more to accomplish... The main thing about
this "but" is this feeling of not deserving the good and easy things
life might have to offer... it is a resistance to receive easiness,
abundance, to accept life's grace, to allow the mind to just let go of
all its insecurities... The mind is in need of self-love, it is afraid
to let down its guard and to be mellow and relax and accept it
deserves life's offerings, it is so afraid that if it accepts to let
all these contracted feelings to go, that life might hurt its
feelings, like something bad might happen... Isn't this all silly?...
It's funny because I notice in my everyday life, for some years now, a
certain hesitation to let something new enter my life, as if I am
afraid that it might hurt me in some way... it's like I'm afraid of
life, and so it is easier to pretend I'm not capable or that something
is still missing so that I keep on hiding from life... And now, all
this is being brought up in the open so I can see it and decide if I
want to keep holding on to this old me or if I finally allow life to
flow freely and accept its offerings... hmmm....

Ilona
Jan 27

Very nice opening. :)
Mind is afraid that it will disappear once the goal is reached. But it's not the case. There is nothing to disappear. See if mind prefers clarity to confusion, play to hard work, innocence to responsibility.

See what is behind the fear of loosing 'old me'.

:)
Much love.


Cristiana 
Jan 27

:))) oh god, the mind is dying to let all this old stuff go! it just
wants to relax instead of worrying all the time! Yes, of course it
prefers clarity to all this mess! imaginary mess, I should add :)!!
"Without the old me who am I?", asks the mind. "Just this moment",
says this moment! Isn't it funny how when you try to explore the way
we're doing it, things just tend to disappear? When I look at what is
behind this fear I can't find anything... let me try it again...ok...
there's this wondering if I will be able to function in the world...
But of course I will! And much more so! without the weight of all
these silly worries! these are just thoughts, I know this! ... I'm
smiling and just don't know what to write anymore... I'm ok. :))
everything is ok, isn't it? :)))
Much love!


Cristiana 
Jan 29

Hey Ilona :) just checking in and letting you know that the mind is
much more relaxed these past couple of days, not protesting so much
anymore :) Also, it's becoming more and more clear that this is only
the beginning, that the journey is endless, so you might as well relax,
right? It's like there was somewhere this thought that there was an
end to this process but the truth is that there is always more and
more, that each day and each moment brings a new adventure. So the
mind just wants to relax and enjoy life as it comes...
This is all for now, much love to you!

Ilona 
Jan 29 

That is so great to hear. I'm delighted for you. Yes, it's an opening, a beginning, a start of an adventure and there is so much to explore. This ever present now offers endless opportunity to focus on what is here, rather then what is going on in the story.

Here are the final questions for you.
Please answer in full, when ready.

Cristiana 
Jan 30 

> 1) Is there a separate 'me' 'I' 'self' , at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

No, there never was any separate me in any way, shape or form: all
there is is consciousness, which is undivided reality; everything is
included in this aware space, separation is an illusion.

> 2) in the experience, is there an experiencer? Is it body that experiences or is the body the experienced?

The experience is everything that happens in the field of awareness,
being the experiencer awareness itself.
Awareness also experiences the body, with all its senses.

> 3) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works.

When we are children, imitating what is happening in our environment,
we begin to identify with the chain of thoughts that begin with the
thought "I" that causes the feeling of being separate from everyone
and everything. We begin to believe every thought of separation that
comes to the mind, making us feel contracted and unhappy; we feel
divided because we believe more in the thoughts than in the direct
experiencing in the moment, the spontaneous flow of life. This belief
in separation is reinforced when we look around and see that everyone
around us is living in the same way.

> 4) How does it feel to see this?

The mind feels great relief because now it knows better, it knows how
all the illusion of separation mechanism works: it doesn't have to
contract and identify every time a thought appears anymore. It doesn't
have to worry all the time and try to fix anything either. It just can
relax and trust in the sensation of being alive, in the aware presence
of life flowing by, moment by moment. The mind begins to trust more in
life, that always takes care of itself.

> 5)How would you describe it to somebody who has never heard about this illusion but is curious about it.

I think the answer to this question some days ago was just perfect so
I will paste it here:

The illusion is identifying with the thought that I am always separate
 from what is taking place here and now, and from everyone and
 everything. All our lives we've been taught that each one of us is a
 separate individual, which makes us feel contracted and unhappy almost
 all the time, causing us, sooner or later, to end this suffering by
 searching in the "outside", in the world, for some relief, for the end
 of this suffering, for the end of this constant feeling of not being
 comfortable in our skin, relating to others and ourselves. But at some
 point, life show us, through some situation or through someone who
 have seen through this illusion already, that the answer to end this
 contracted way of living is simply to look to what is, always have
 been, and always will be present: our true nature, our own awareness
 is always here, now, at this moment, all the time and realizing this,
 the contracted, tense mind begins to relax and to stop its frantic
 search for an answer. The answer is right here right now, so simple...
 and the mind understood the solutions to this existential problem to
 be so complicated, so complex and exhausting. Finally, one begins to
 relax and the identification of being a separate someone begins to
 fall away, to some people in a fast, sudden way, to others in a more
 gradual, subtle way.

> 6) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look? Can you describe the moment when seeing happened?

In my case, it was so gradual. Little by little, the mind just started
to abandon its old ways and just started to notice that awareness was
always present and the feeling of being separate from the flow of life
began to fade away.
But looking back, it was in January 5th the moment when seeing first
happened, it was just so fresh and exciting, although the mind tried
to fight against this realization a couple of days later until
recently; it took the mind about a month to settle down and accept its
freedom.
I will paste the entire email from January 5th here, because it
describes so well the moment when I finally saw through the illusion:

 i'm smiling now, reading your words "what is the I that is
 aware?"... There is no I that is aware!!! There is just awareness!!
 How can this be?! Awareness does not require an I !!! Awareness knows
 and sees directly, without the aid of anything!! Am I Seeing It now? I
 feel this joy coming up out of nowhere! I'm just happy for no
 reason... Is this it? There is no I?! It just feels so clear now... I
 hope this lasts! LOL!! just kidding!! :)) this "I hope this lasts" is
 just a thought.. gone now! But what I mean is, could this be so simple
 like this, just smiling and noticing there is no I, but just
 awareness functioning?.. uau :)) keep asking me whatever, so that I am
 sure I am really Seeing It.  But what am I saying?! "I" can't be sure!
 There is no "I" to be sure of anything! Only awareness IS! And
 awareness is quiet now... it always Is, it doesn't change!!

> 7) Anything to add?

Just that I love you... my dear friend :) thank you so much for your
compassion and for taking this amazing ride with me! I will never
forget you and hope we will stay in touch.
Is there a Liberation Unleashed group so that I can connect with
people that went through the same?
Also, when my process stabilizes more, I would love to pass my
gratitude on and try to help others to see... I don't know if I would
be good at it but I would love to try some day...


Ilona 
Jan 31

Hi sweet Cristiana.

Thank you for answers :) lovely.
Is there any doubt at all?

One little question, can I post our conversation on my blog, with your name or whatever name you like, it may help someone else...
I can get you into groups, once other guides will read and ask questions, if they have any..

Big hug! <3

Cristiana 
Jan 31 

Hi Ilona :)

No, no doubts at all, at least for now there aren't, which feels so
great, so smooth and liberating...the mind is finally enjoying the
ride :)
Of course you can post our conversation in your blog and you can use
my own name, it would be great if it helps someone.
It would be wonderful to be in the aftercare group to stay connected
to kindred spirits and make sure things continue to deepen and
stabilize... let me know, ok?

Big hug and talk to you soon!


Ilona 
Jan 31 

Sweet! It may take a couple of days for me to put it up.. I've got a busy couple of days coming. :)
Are we friends on Facebook? We can chat there any time. I'd love to.

 have a smooth evening :)

Cristiana 
Jan 31 

:) yes, we're friends on facebook for a couple of weeks now. Sure, we
can chat there any time :)
Take care and stay close