Sometimes I Hear This: I Think I Haven't Seen It...

"Seeing no self" is a recognition of what is already here now, happening, by itself, without assumption of a doer.

Sometimes I hear this- I think I haven't seen it... Or I haven't seen it properly. This and that is happening, and I think, it's shouldn't, if I have seen it right. 

This refers to some past event, that already has happened. That is not the place to look. 

In my experience, I have never had a doubt about the absence separate self, I tried once to doubt it, to see if it stands, but doubt had no where to land. It's obvious that life is not divided into little separate pieces that run their own show. All that shows up is one movement, one arising. Thoughts do not divide what is, even if they say they do.

Your experience may be different and you may have the doubt creeping in and taking over. But then, I see this as a hidden expectation- that seeing no self is going to solve all kinds of problems and when it does not deliver, there is a panic, that perhaps this hasn't been seen through. (And that is another problem that needs to be solved.) As if there is a separate self that has these problems, as if mind is in charge of solving them and seeing should have wiped all that away. It's kinda ironic that seeing that there is no separate entity is expected to fix problems that appear to be created by this apparent entity.

I don't know about you, but I have done a lot of work by myself, for myself to clear those beliefs that say how this is and how this should be and how this is not enough. (Not all beliefs fall off without work) These beliefs are here not because of presence of a separate self entity aka person, they are here because they haven't been questioned. Beliefs generate stories, intense emotions that come with these stories are screaming for attention. That's nothing to do with self or no self, it's to do with what you believe is true. 

Life does not stop, it carries on. So does the looking/seeing, inquiring, exploring, getting into situations and stories. And if one looks, here now, this seeing that there is no one here to have problems or need to create and solve problems, is always available. As I say, it's a matter of recognition, noticing, of what is here now. And that needs no words of description. It just is.

LU Meeting up North

I was invited to do a meeting up North. One of LU guides, Sarah, messaged me on Facebook and asked if I would come up. Thanks to her and her husband David for hospitality.

Everything went smoothly and meeting happened. It was great to meet LU people face to face, hear them talk and share experiences. As we had a few people that haven't been through forum process, it was great to talk about what it's all about.

Here is the recording of the meeting.  Click on the link to get to the podcast. Enjoy!

The Price of Freedom Is Bullshit

The sense of freedom feels as though there is an ease, unconstrained, free flowing movement. It can be anywhere between intense or soft, ecstatic or peaceful. Freedom is felt when resistance is not. It's a sense of non attachment. It's being able to genuinely feel and express what really wants to be expressed. And the price of freedom is all of our bullshit.
If I could, I would take an eraser and delete all bullshit from life, all the unnecessary, all the noise and rubbish so all that is left to see is the crystallized, incredible design. Pure is without an overlay of judgmental thinking.

This alive thing that is not a thing, Life, Intelligence, Self, Tao, Zen, Love or whatever you want to call it, is an adventure. This alive thing has an unmistakable gravitational pull into the deep, into the openness. It is asking for only one thing- release of limitations.

Limitations are mind created structures of belief that no longer serve. Some repeating thoughts appearing sticky make up a pattern that seem solid, but are quite simply; bullshit. Bullshit sticks to other bullshit creating elaborate castles of Bullshit. It looks pretty sturdy. Tried and tested. It's been here for years. Comfortable or not, it feels familiar, safe, known. I am talking about all that we believe we know. Everything that we consider being ok, but know is not- is an indication that something is covered by some layer of bullshit.

What kind of fun is life like that? It can be fun if one is stuck in drama and finds it entertaining. Truly though, living with lots of bullshit in the head is not desireable. No one likes to feel enslaved, to feel pain, suffering, intense negative emotions. And that's what bullshit generates; feelings that are undesirable. That's how we can know that some old stinky belief is in operation that contradicts with how things are. The belief/thought will be followed by a desire to fix or change the external situation. Good stuff, we have a built in bullshit radar that signals us and shows us what is not in alignment with a sense of rightness.

The good news?  One does not need bullshit. It's not a necessity like breathing air or eating. Bullshit is something we collect and gather along the way and carry as a possession; it’s ours and we own it. It weighs us down, puts the pressure on and generally stinks of negativity. We must take full responsibility for it. Taking special notice under such categories like "In my precious opinion", "This is how it is and how it should be", "This is how other should be", "I worry about what may happen if that happens"...

Even better news, bullshit is highly flammable. Like a fart to a flame. Just throw a little spark of fire and everything can go kaboom. There is a condition required however, and that is a willingness to ignite it. One must be ready and open to live a life without bullshit. Are you ready? Are you open?

Bullshit will not burn easily if one does not want to let it go. Bullshit will not ignite at all if one prefers to keep it.  That means lots of lighter fluid or in other words,...willingness. It may feel scary to drop the familiar ideas about what we are and what we are not, where we are heading, what we really want. Freedom to be what we are and express openly and fully our authenticity can feel overwhelming, so we cover ourselves in the safety of ideas about our limitations instead of shining. Burning bullshit away will reveal what was once mundane and orderly to shining and completely unpredictable. Does that scare you?  Burn that too!  

The fire is our rebellious and wild spirit that says no to taming; no to self created prison.

If bullshit is ready to burn, it will catch fire like firewood. The fire will spread through the whole castle and burn the beliefs away. Piece by piece, pattern by pattern the beliefs will rise up to be seen and scorched. So be it. Cheers and goodbye. Enjoy the fireworks.




I'd say that giving away all the bullshit is a fair price to pay. Losing that which does not serve any longer is not a loss. It's freedom. Total Freedom.
Here is an invitation to those who think they have burned their beliefs already. Rebel against the weight of your unowned bullshit, it may be hiding. Set yourself on fire just to see if there is more that wants to burn. Just in case there is more lightness, ease and flow to be discovered.
This is a call to explore what else can be freed.

May all beings find freedom and live the exciting adventure that life really is. Free of bullshit.

co written with Julie Rumbarger.  

Noirioni: Slowly, But Surely, Everything Seem to Fall into Place.

Noirioni:
Hi Ilona,

I have got a strong pull towards asking you to be my guide.
Will you help me?

I´m now 60 years old and I have been in the Zen/Advita ”business” for over 20 years!

About a year ago I was in bed and imagined myself to be a wave on the ocean.
And at the same time the feeling of being a separate person disappeared!
Suddenly I realized that it had always been like this, there was never a separate person.
Everything happened all by itself, ”I” had no control because ”I” didn´t exist.
This feeling lasted a few minutes and then everything returned to normal.
Thoughts kept coming up and feelings came and went.
Just like they had always done.

Now, when I try to ignore all that I have learnt, the following appears:

-There is awareness of experience.

-There seems to be someone (”I"?) or something experiencing sounds, sights, emotions...

-There seems to be some connection between experiencing and the body (when I
close my eyes visuals disappear, when I close my ears sounds disappear…)
Experience seems to happen through the body?

-What I call ”me” is the one that is experiencing everything.

-Feelings and thoughts seem to be private (I can´t know what you are thinking, feeling).

-What am I seeing in the mirror?

All this on one hand and the knowing of there being no-one on the other hand
leads to a great confusion, as you can imagine.

I feel that I really need some clarity and guidance in these matters.

Please help!
Noirioni, from Sweden

Ilona:
Hi Noirioni,

Thank you for email. It's a pleasure to meet you. My answers will be below your questions.

Now, when I try to ignore all that I have learnt, the following appears:
-There is awareness of experience.
This statement suggests that there is awareness and experience as two separate objects, but look, awareness = experience. Two different words, same stuff. Look, there is the view in front, it's not like there is something that witnesses it from the back, outside of it. The view = awareness of the view = awareness.
Language makes up separation where there is none.

-There seems to be someone (”I"?) or something experiencing sounds, sights, emotions...

The key word here is SEEMS. Yes, it seems, as thoughts say, there must be one. But there is nothing there. Look, what do you find, is there a hearer of sound ? what is the i that hears sounds? the I that breathes, sits, talks? is there one?

-There seems to be some connection between experiencing and the body (when I
close my eyes visuals disappear, when I close my ears sounds disappear…)

A question to ask here is this:
Is it body that experiences or body is the experienced? Is there a gap between you and bodily sensations?

Experience seems to happen through the body?

Or perhaps AS? As sensations that are labeled "body", "arm" , "hair" etc..

-What I call ”me” is the one that is experiencing everything.

Right. What is the i and what is the me and what is the difference?
Have a look, is there a gap, between experienced and experiencer? Where is the line, that separates me from out there?
Is there such sensation that you would point to and say- that's separateness.

We can look at the other questions later. Write what comes up when you work with what i gave you.
It's really very simple and you saw that already. It's just about noticing what is happening here now.
kind regards,

Noirioni:
Hi again Ilona and thank you so much for your answers.

It really shook me up (in a good way)!
Now it’s 2:44 in the morning and I’m feeling wide awake!
So my answers are below.

Language makes up separation where there is none.

Wow, you´re sooo right. Fooled by words again! No two objects, of course.
Something really happened on a feeling level when I read this answer.
A merging of two concepts into one experience.
Separation gone.
So simple.
Will it stay?

The key word here is SEEMS.
Yes, it seems, as thoughts say, there must be one.
Is there one?

No, when looked upon this way there is really no-one here, doing anything.
I realize that the hearer of sounds is just a made-up character.
Just sound happening.
Just breathing.
Sitting.
Everything happens by itself.
It can almost be a little scary and certainly very unfamiliar.
No-one here?

Is it body that experiences or body is the experienced?
Is there a gap between you and bodily sensations?

No there is no gap between me and body sensations.
It´s all one happening.
But this feels like such a great shift, compared to my previous believes,
that I can´t really seem to grasp it right away.
I can feel the smell of it though...

Experience seems to happen through the body?
or perhaps AS?
As sensations that are labeled "body", "arm" , "hair" etc..

This is extremely interesting.
Can we talk more about this?
I feel I need many practical examples and to take very small baby-steps
before this can be accepted completely.
”Show me, I’m from Missouri!”

No difference between me and I.
I realize that they are just a made-up concepts.
And there cannot be a gap between experienced and experiencer, can there?
They must be one.
There cannot be any experience without experiencer, right?

You have shone a light into the dark caves where the I was living.
And shown that there is no-one living there!
Now I feel a big hole, emptiness where I thought that the I resided.
Strange feeling, but good!
It´s a lot lighter without it!
Hope it doesn’t come back?
I feel very new, sensitive and vulnerable right now.
Much like a new born baby...

Lots of love from Noirioni.

Noirioni:
Hi again Ilona,

Can I check some insights with you, to see if I´m on the right path?
Would it be true to state:

We think that we are a separate person that can control life.
But there is no ”you”. ”You” do not exist.
There is only Life pretending to be a separate person.
Life is person-ing.
Life is happening as us.

We think that we see a separate world with our eyes.
But “you” can’t see. “You” do not exist. There is no seer.
There is seeing. Life sees itself.

We think that we hear a separate world with our ears.
But “you” can’t hear. There is no “you”. There is no hearer.
Hearing happens. Life is hear-ing itself.

We think that we think thoughts.
But “you” can’t think. “You” do not exist. There is no thinker.
”You” are just a thought. There is thinking. Life thinks.

We believe we are the body.
But ”you” are not the body. There is no ”you”. There is a body.
Life is ”body-ing”. Bodying happens.

We believe that we are breathing.
But ”you” are not breathing. ”You” do not exist. There is no breather.
Breathing happens. Life is breath-ing.

But still, Life seems to need ”my” eyes to see with and ”my” ears to hear with…?

The body exists. The eyes exist. The tree, that is seen with these eyes, exist.
But a separate seer does not exist. Only seeing.
Is that a correct conclusion?

All the best,
Noirioni

Ilona:
Hi Noirioni.

Thank you for emails. Some great looking and observations~!

You ask, Would it be true to state, I say no.
Nothing that you arrive at as truth is truth.
No concept is true.

That's the fun thing- whatever we describe as an arrival point is only holding on to an idea.
Life is not experiencing life. Life is not an object. It's a concept. Same like any other word. It's a thought, idea, not reality. And yes, we can describe what we see and believe in our story, but if you don't see story as a story, you may be trapped into believing that this is how things really are.

"The body exists. The eyes exist. The tree, that is seen with these eyes, exist.
But a separate seer does not exist. Only seeing. "

The question of existence is another territory, it's about how things exists. There is a whole emptiness path, awareness path etc that work with these questions.

Let me show you something. There is an exercise in this post. Do it here or on paper and see how language creates subject, where is none.
http://markedeternal.blogspot.co.uk/2012/05/labels.html

And don't worry for now about what exists. Just see how describing affects what is being experienced. Write to me what you notice.
sending love.


Noironi:
Yes, I see what you mean.
That's a really good exercise.
It's clear that we habitually put in an I
where it's clearly not.
It's just an assumption, lying there like a big, fat, smiling cat!
Everything is much lighter and easier
without it.
It's just so unnecessary, it doesn't DO
anything!

I´m listening to my wife talking.
I’m looking at the trees outside.
I´m feeling full from lunch.
I´m feeling thirsty.
I´m typing on my laptop.
I´m thinking about what to watch tonight.
I´m sitting down.
My wife’s son is talking to me.
My dog is looking at me.
I´m feeling tired in my body.
I watch the clouds.
_______________________________________

Looking at clouds.
Listening to a conversation.
Breathing.
Dog wants to go out.
Playing guitar.
Typing on the laptop.
Feeling warm.
Remembering Zahn from LA.
Eating a chewing gum.

Thanks!

Ilona:
Wonderful! Yes, like a big fat smiling cat, haha

How does it feel to see this?
Is there any doubt?
Sending love

Noironi:
I'm afraid so.
It feels like living in two different worlds at the same time.
On a good day there is the knowledge (and sometimes even the feeling) of
there being no one there.
But other times it's not so clear and the character of "Noirioni" is alive and well and
searching continues. But at the same time there is very little,
if any, conflicts with "others" or "the world".
There is a lot of harmony and resting in
what is.

Can you relate to that?
Where am I?
And is there anything you can do to
push "me" further towards the edge?
Love, Noirioni


Ilona:
What is that the character is looking for? What does he expect to find?
How and what should be different?

With whole honesty, bring up all expectations. What do you want to happen, hope for? Let's see what shows up.
Sending love

Noironi:
Hi again and thanks for not letting me off the hook too easily!

I suppose that one part is that the searching for truth has gone on for so long that it has become a habit.

And old habits die hard.
The mind refuses to see that it can’t ”understand”.
So even if I know the truth of there being no separate person, it doesn’t seem to help to destroy the illusion at a deeper level.

The illusion of me being in a body is just too strong!

Another part is the deep experience/feeling I had the other year of there being
no one, no person. Just seeing, feeling, touching, thinking all by itself
without anyone doing it. That was great!

It was shattering and I guess there is some longing to get back to that state.

But the exercise you gave me to study ”I´m walking” compared
to ”walking” was really good and it comes up all the time in different situations.

So maybe s-l-o-w-l-y…
Thanks, Noirioni


Ilona:
And old habits die hard.
Not true. Old habits can drop easily, when they become conscious, when they no longer make sense.

The mind refuses to see that it can’t ”understand”.
So even if I know the truth of there being no separate person, it doesn't seem to help to destroy the illusion at a deeper level.

Right. It does not help to destroy illusion. But what if nothing needs to be destroyed?
What in your opinion needs to be destroyed?
Look this way: you are in a desert, you see an oasis. You know it's mirage. You run to it, and nothing is there, just more sand. You look further and see another oasis. Another mirage, you run again and see again, that nothing is there. Next time you see an oasis.. Do you need to destroy that mirage? Or you just know not to chase after an illusion?

The story continues, the character continues, nothing changes. Only that person is seen as fiction, not actuality.

The illusion of me being in a body is just too strong!

Ok, where is this me in the body now?
Find it.
What is there?
Which sensation is you?

Another part is the deep experience/feeling I had the other year of there being
no one, no person. Just seeing, feeling, touching, thinking all by itself
without anyone doing it. That was great! It was shattering and I guess there is some longing to get back to that state.

Yes, that's kinda common, trying to get to a state from before. But there is only here now. And the peace is underneath all thinking. It's a matter of simply stopping and noticing.
All states come and go. Nothing stays permanently. And freedom is not from unwanted states. Freedom is to experience all fully, no matter what state is present. No state is final.

But the exercise you gave me to study ”I´m walking” compared
to ”walking” was really good and it comes up all the time in different situations.
So maybe s-l-o-w-l-y…

You are in the process already... Notice, all is simply happening...

With whole honesty, bring up all expectations. What do you want to happen, hope for? Let's see what shows up. This is still an invitation to explore.

Sending love.

Noirioni:
I was writing:
I don't want to feel like a separate person.
I want to see through the illusion of separation.
I want to experience reality as it is.
I want peace of mind.
And there was suddenly an insight that:
all expectations are just thoughts from the ego point of view!
So I leaned back and relaxed.

Birdsong.


Ilona:
The story continues, the character continues, nothing changes. Only that person is seen as fiction, not actuality.
Mmm, I guess you´re right. There is no way to destroy that which does not exist.
There are moments of clarity when this can be seen.

Which sensation is you?

It seems more and more that ALL sensations and experiences is me...

Another part is the deep experience/feeling I had the other year of there being
no one, no person. Just seeing, feeling, touching, thinking all by itself
without anyone doing it. That was great!

Freedom is to experience all fully, no matter what state is present. No state is final.
Yeah, here and now there are really no problems (unless you think about it). I´m stopping and noticing more and more. Or it is happening more and more.
On a good day I can see (or it can be seen) that it´s all unfolding exactly the way
it should and that everything is happening by itself.

With whole honesty, bring up all expectations. What do you want to happen, hope for? Let's see what shows up.
It feels like what is still left is a desire for clarity in these matters…
I want to be as clear as you are!
Love and best wishes.


Ilona:
Hi Noirioni.

Can you look back and see if there is anything different in normal everyday life since we started this conversation. What hasn't changed?

The clarity.. The more lies are seen through, the more clarity there is. There are lots of beliefs to examine, it takes time for them all to come up, one by one.
Let's examine, what is not clear yet and work with that.
Sending love


Noirioni: 
Hi Ilona,

Thanks for getting back to me.

What is appearing more and more, since we started talking, is that thoughts come up insisting:
”There is no separate person”, ”You do not exist” and ”There is no Noirioni”.

There is really no fear in this, just an: Aha, yes that’s true.

Sometimes there’s a feeling that I’m not the body (which I have believed to be for so long)
but just what is experiencing. Being the world and everything!

What hasn´t changed is the experience of what is happening in the moment.
That is always the same.

And sometimes "I just go there”, or ”I’m just there” and everything’s fine. No problems. No desires. Just what’s happening.

But I feel quite unsure that I’m there all the time.

Sometimes I get lost in thoughts.

I think you’re right when you say that more clarity comes from seeing through all the lies we’ve been fed.
One by one.

Ilona:
Nice..

"But I feel quite unsure that I’m there all the time."

Where there? There is only here. Here now. This moment. No other place or time to be. How can you be not here, ever?

Sometimes I get lost in thoughts.
Well, should this not be happening? It's part of experience and that too is included. Getting lost in thoughts and feeling is natural. No need to fight it, just notice, that thoughts are not actuality. Story is not reality. It's a story about it. The feelings, the sense sensations in the moment are actuality.

Yes, more work to be done, more processing.. The thing is, all that is not serving starts to fall off. There is no end to falling, no landing on a ground.
Sending love.


Noirioni: 
Now wait a minute!

If you´re saying that everything is OK that happens in this moment, the even feeling like a separate person would be all right, would´t it?
Anything that happened would be OK?
That would make life a lot easier, don´t you think?
How could you miss that?

Warm today!
Love, Noirioni

Ilona:
:)

Warm today!
Lovely here as well.

Noirioni: 
I´ve been reading through your posts on ”Marked, Eternal”
and listening to the audiobook by Jed McKenna and now I feel a bit like this:

It seems like all old beliefs are crumbling.

And what is left?

There are no separate parts - no borders. Check.
There is no ”I” - the ”I” is only a thought. Check.
So there is no control - everything is happening by itself. Check.
Thoughts appear from nowhere - and passes by. Check.
We believe ”I think” instead of ”thinking happens”. Check.
Feelings appear from nowhere - and passes by. Check.
Some labels point to reality - some to unreality. Check.
”I am” always here, now. Check.
There is a body - but it´s not ”mine”. Check.

There is just the Mona Lisa´s smile…


Ilona:
Awesome!
the structure is on the melt down... great!

Is there anything else that wants to be examined? Is there any doubt?
much love.


Noirioni: 
Hi Ilona,

It feels very fresh and sensitive right now as the moldering away has started.

But at the same time very familiar and very light, like a burden has been lifted from the shoulders.
So I´m sure something will come up that needs clarification.
I hope I can contact you then?

But you sure started off the process, putting the dynamite in place
and firing away.

Actually your exercise in writing: ”I´m walking” and ”Walking”was really the final blow to make the whole ”I”-thought start to crumble!

Slowly, but surely, everything seem to fall into place.

Thank you so much for beginning to demolishing me
and all the best!

You are a wrecking ball!
Love, Noirioni

Ilona:
Delightful!

I like to see dynamite explosions :) It gives a sense of another wall going down.

Would you say with a big fat YES, it's clear, that I, the separate self, is an illusion.
If so, are you ready for what we call 'final questions'?
Much love

Noirioni:
Hi,
The foundations of a separate self has surely begun it´s final deconstruction.

It´s being seen through more and more every day.

And although it may take some time to tear down the whole structure there is no turning back once the ground floor is gone.
But it all happens exactly as it should.
Every thought, every move, every feeling is like a gift.
The Great Mystery Energy expressing itself as this.
There seems to be less and less knowing, not more and more.
All that this world is made up of is being seen as lies
(or as some would put it: ”God in confusion”

This night there was a feeling how everything is made of the same ”stuff".

How thoughts, feelings, time and everything is connected, interdependent
and how there are no borders between anything.

It´s all created at the same time.

And only this exists!
Strange, but beautiful!
So, if you want, we can try the questions and see what happens.
Love and gratitude...

Ilona:Strange and beautiful indeed...
Here are the questions. No rush. Write what feels true. If I see some sticky points, we can look at that.
.......
Much love.


Noirioni:
1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?
Was there ever?

After studying and practicing Zen and Advita for about 20 years I had an experience last year that really shook the foundations of the illusory self, when I suddenly felt that the personal "self-feeling" was gone. It only lasted for a few seconds, maybe minutes, but during that time there was a clear sense of there being no ”me” and that there never had been.

Everything just went on as before. Thoughts coming up, feelings, sensations,
but suddenly the feeling of being a person was gone.
It was a great relief, because I knew right away what it was after all my reading about it.
I don´t know what happened next, but I suspect that the old feeling of being a person returned after some time...?
Now I feel and think less and less about whether there is a person, separate from everything else or not.

2a) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is:
The illusion seem to consist of thoughts and feelings that tell us that we are a separate entity,
cut off and living unconnected to the world and everything around us.

b) when it starts:
We are taught that this is who we are, and this body is yours, not mine by our parents and society when we grow up.
And I suppose it´s a good thing because if we didn´t believe in being a separate person we could easily become psychotic.

c) and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.
The seeing of the illusory nature of a separate self is deepening and working in more and more situations.
As soon as someone opens their mouth I can tell right away how the thought/feeling of being a separate self is controlling and affecting them and their behavior.
And then I think: ”No worries, mon. That´s OK, that is how the Whole is expressing itself right now.
It´s all good. It´s all perfect."
What I experience is a body moving around in the world and ”private" thoughts coming into existence.
And there is still use of the word ”I” to describe what happens in this body and mind.
I still say: ”I feel tired”, ”I´m hungry”, ”I see the dog”, ”I´m going into town tomorrow" and so on
(which of course is quite confusing)!
But there is less belief in the thoughts of a separate ”me” anymore.
Often there is a seeing through the ”me”-illusion.
Everything just seems to be experiences. Always changing.

3a) How does it feel to see this?
It feels a lot lighter, like a weight has been lifted. It´s easier to even breathe! Clarity.
There is still an interest in Advita matters but it seems more like a deepening of understanding
than a desperate longing for the "truth".

b) What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.
Contacting you and following your advice made everything more practical and less theoretical.
I could see that what I had already realized in theory also held water in practical situations.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?
All the things you said made sense and especially the exercise with writing down:
”I´m walking” compared to ”Walking” was an eyeopener to see that the separate me really didn´t do anything.
Everything just happened by itself.

5a) Can you talk about decision, intention, free will, choice and control?
Here I feel more sure and can clearly see that thoughts, that come up from nowhere, have total control.
Everything just happens. There is no free will, as there is no one to have it. All choices are made by the whole.
And I have complete trust that the whole is benign and that it always makes the right choices.
Why should it make a wrong choice? The way I see it, Life makes no mistakes.
And everything that happens is there to help you see who/what you are.
Life is helping itself to wake up?

b) What makes things happen?
I have no idea. Just that the whole Universe is behind anything that happens.

c) How does it work? Give examples from experience.
Suddenly a thought arises: ”I´d like to have some tea”. Then I go and make the tea and drink it.
Seldom is there any hesitance in what to do. There is full trust in the process that governs all that happens.
And very few discussions with it.
I feel that there is a ”clear seeing”. For example when my wife gets into a "pain attack”,
I can more and more (on a good day) see what is happening and not react on an ego level,
but just let her be in that space until it passes. This is a really good exercise!

6) Anything to add?
No, I think that covers most of it from this point of view.
Just that I´m very grateful for your input and clear seeing.
Please let me know of things that are still fuzzy for me so we can do some more cleaning.
Nothing wrong with a little brain washing, eh?
Love, Noirioni


Ilona:
Thank you very much for answering so fully and clearly.
It's been a pleasure to walk with you.
This makes me see that shift happened. It's subtle. But as time goes, you will see, it changes everything.

3a) How does it feel to see this?
It feels a lot lighter, like a weight has been lifted. It´s easier to even breathe! Clarity.
There is still an interest in Advita matters but it seems more like a deepening of understanding
than a desperate longing for the "truth".

The illusion seem to consist of thoughts and feelings that tell us that we are a separate entity,
cut off and living unconnected to the world and everything around us.

Nicely said. Not sure why you use word we. Are there multiple separate entities? I'm just poking now, to see if there is anything in this area that may want to be explored.
Much love your way.


Noirioni:
Mmm, good question!

A slip of the tongue?
The slip of a thought?

I like your poking, I don´t want to get off the hook with some half-assed understanding.
I´m in it to the end of the line...

Seeing that there is no separate person has a lot of consequences that have to be considered?
The thing is that there seems to be two different worlds.

In one there are thoughts, words, labels.
It describes the dualistic world and cannot describe anything else.
This is where there are problems and wanting to understand everything.
A longing for the total clarity that you express.

This is the many still unanswered questions
and thoughts like these come up from nowhere:
- is there a world without anyone seeing it?
- why is there pain when ”my” or ”this" foot is hurt
and no pain when ”you" hurt ”your" foot?
- why does it seem that awareness follows "this body"?

The other world is without words. It´s just what is happening right now.
And here there are no problems.

The experience of this now:
- tapping the keyboard.
- seeing the trees outside the window.
- amused at thoughts that pass by.
- drinking tea with lemon.

Now that I write it down I realize that the first world, of thoughts,
is actually contained in the second world of experiences.

This is the real world.

And seeing this could/should bring about total clarity, but it
just brings about total presence (which isn´t too bad, of course).

But, I would´t be able to answer questions, like you do.
What´s up?
Love, Noirioni


Noirioni:
Hello, anybody home…? Guess not.


Ilona:
- is there a world without anyone seeing it?
Is anyone seeing it? The world is seen. That's obvious. It's here.
Seer?
Where is it?

- why is there pain when ”my” or ”this" foot is hurt
Why ? 

Just because.
Why question is story weaver. Any answer is as good as any. More accurate or not.
The answer is not in mind story. The question is irrelevant. Curious thing to explore, but empty.

and no pain when ”you" hurt ”your" foot?
- why does it seem that awareness follows "this body"?

Is this body arising in awareness or awareness arising in the body? Or does it matter?

Object and awareness is same thing. It's not two different somethings.
Look, sound is heard, is awareness something that is outside, separate, different? Does labelling create that what we call sound?

The other world is without words. It´s just what is happening right now.
And here there are no problems.
Sweeeeet!

But, I would´t be able to answer questions, like you do.
What´s up?

I did not answer your questions, but gave you some variations of questions. You can answer them now. :)

PS. Sorry for disappearing, I have been distracted away.. Happens.

Noirioni:
Hi!

Today there was a realisation that
since there is no separate self,
there really is nothing to do.

No use asking questions.
No use in believing thoughts.
They just pass.
Not even concentrating on THIS,
because who could do that?
There is just THIS.
Love, Noirioni

PS: been looking at the LU pointers
in FaceBook, they're really great!

Thanks!!! ️


Ilona:

Lovely.
But does action require a doer?
There is nothing to do regarding seeking for something other than what is.
Still action arises, things get done.
What drives action?
Sending love


Noironi:
Everything seems to happen by itself.
There is no entity there doing decisions or actions.
What more can be said?
The sun is rising…or rather, the earth is turning…

Ilona:
Good morning :)
Lovely answer. Thank you.
Welcome home..

What happens next is this, I usually put these conversations in my blog and other guides have a read to see if they might have any questions for you. If none, I invite you to join LU groups for continuous support and friendships.
This is a beginning of exploration, there will be lots of stuff coming up to be seen, sometimes it's good to have a place to talk about all this.

Would it be ok to put our conversation on my blog? I can use your first name, or initial or whatever name you prefer.
Much love your way!


Noirioni:
Thanks for good guiding!

You can use the name: Noirioni if you want to put our conversation on your blog.
Waiting for more questions from other guides.

Love to join the LU groups for further exploration.

Would be nice to connect to guides in Sweden and Portugal
(that´s where winter is to be spent) ️
Do you know any?

I went up and down and then disappeared in the ocean.

Ilona:
Thank you so much.

How to Reach a Permanent Non Dual State

I get asked sometimes, how to reach the permanent state of non duality, or otherwise no self; how to be in that state 24/7, 365. As if there is such a state called "non duality". 

My simple answer is this: when a kid realises that Santa is not real, does the he live in the state of "no Santa" for the rest of his life? I feel nothing special about Santa being fiction, I don't think about it. (Other than using Santa example here sometimes) Life goes on. Experiences are happening. But question is this Santa state or no-Santa state does not arise, it's irrelevant. It's not a question. 

So when one is looking for a permanent state of no self, one is imagining that there is such a state. One imagines that it's something that is not what one experiences. But states come and go, the present state, as it is here now is ever changing. Breathing is happening, sounds are heard, view is being seen, movements are felt, that's the present experience in whole of its glory. Calling this dual or non dual, self or no self or even experience is irrelevant. It's here now. With and without names. This does not care if it's named at all. And thoughts arise and pass as part of the whole movement of the whole moment. There is no separateness and no unity, all these ideas are overlaid on what is indivisible and always here. 

The silent space of here now does not change. Sense of being is not being switched on or off at will. The content of experience is changing like a kaleidoscope, it has many angles to explore: some are pink and rosy, some dark and heavy. That's ok. Search or not for another experience, it changes by itself and all passes. 

Realising that experience here now simply is as it is, with and without names and has nothing to do with self or no self, dual or non dual, frees the question. 

Perhaps those that look for permanent non dual / no self state are really looking for something else, like bliss 24/7, being at peace, feeling of oneness, unity, flowing, staying always happy and high? That too is a fantasy, unless you are constantly on mind altering substances, or have a highly evolved abilities.

Preferred states are great and while they last they are delicious. Unwanted states are part of life too, it does not mean that these states are somehow dual. 

Helen: "Seriously? just this?"

Helen:
Hi Ilona,

"I" viscerally saw through the illusion of "me" about 8 months ago (with
non-LU guide online and through direct pointing koans/questions) and it
seems to be integrating well into life in general, deepening (relaxed,
detached and compassionate out-looking, others/everything seen as One and
not apart from "me," no fear, much humor, answers to questions arising
quickly, joy even with life-fluxes).

Looking through the site, disclaimer, groundrules, posting instructions,
and reading Gateless Gatecrashers and Direct Pointing Guide, I am
interested in joining the aftercare and awakened connection groups and
possibly even guiding at some point. I do not have a community as my
journey is mostly solitary, introspective and gentle but very much wish to
interact with others who have broken through the illusion of separation.
When I found LU it feels right (no creed, just d.e., simple) ~ thank you
for making this happen :) Is it possible to have access to the groups?

If there is anything else I can tell you, please ask and I am happy to
answer.

Many thanks and much love,
Helen

Ilona:
Hi Helen,

Thank you very much for reaching out and emailing me. It is great to connect with others and be part of community.
There are two ways how to get there.
You can register on the forum, tell your story, answer some questions and once it's clear that you see what we point to, we invite you to groups.
Or, we can chat over email, then I can post our conversation on my blog and see if any other guides have any questions. Either way is fine. It's up to you.

Sending Love.

Helen:
Hi Ilona,

Thank you for writing back. Email and your blog is fine since we are already here. I am registered on the forum (user Eka) and on the Facebook group (Helen Eki Talasi) as well.

Looking over the community there are so many different and beautiful journeys, it is inspiring to have them shared. Part of my story and what I see when I look is on my poetry blog (flashesofbodhi.wordpress.com). Poetry always appealed to me - direct, much shared with few words :)

If ok with you, we can chat. You mentioned answering some questions...

With love,
Helen

Ilona:
Sorry for the delay..
Here are some questions that we ask everybody. Take your time :)

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5)can you talk about decision, intention, free will, choice and control? What makes things happen? How does it work? Give examples from experience

6) Anything to add?

Please answer in full, when ready.
Much love.

Helen:
Hi Ilona,

No problem, no rush :) Here are my answers...

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

No and there never was. Only conventionally, the group of processes and form with label "Helen," or "Ilona," or "Dean," or whomever, was/is labeled as a self. Once this illusion was penetrated, no self is seen anywhere, in any way, shape or form, ultimately from cosmos-centric perspective.

After the initial seeing, integration happened by "catching" thoughts, noticing how this illusion arises and letting go. As soon as seen, poof, gone :)

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now. 

It starts with language. Once a child learns to label groupings, including the "self," "me," "mine," an attachment/delusion forms. Thoughts are reinforced by environment and maintain this delusion - continuous use of labels. Until direct seeing happens, perspective shift, shattering of illusion.

Others still see Helen, and everyone/thing else as separate entities, however, this is no longer seen on this side. It helped that I was never fond of labels :)

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

Difficult to describe with words since it is words/thoughts that maintain a sense of separation. To try: it's freeing, light (both not-heavy and like sunshine), relaxing into anything that happens, no longer entangled in "inner" or "outer" stories, fully engaged with what is because there is an understanding, a new perspective, that anything that happens is just processes. Also, there is a sense that everything is connected, One, thus love and compassion flow naturally. Fear gone. Anger impossible. Much laughter and acceptance, like finally being home. Otherwise, life goes on as usual :) It's been about 8 months now and this period has been balancing, integrating new perspective.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look? 

Ever since I was very young, I knew there was more to life than what we are told. The journey was both gradual and sudden. The gradual part was the intellectual understanding and smaller direct insights into the nature of reality (such as seeing impermanence, non-separation from others, the flow of thoughts, cause-effect of happenings, ...), cleaning up old patterns, deconstructing. Meditation made the mind supple and continuous awareness possible, looking at EVERYthing. The turning point, visceral seeing was when I sat through the Mondo Zen 13 koans, series of questions guiding to see through the illusion of self/controller. It took about one hour. It was like a flash, complete clarity that there is no self any where nor when. It was so simple, clear, and funny, almost unbelievable. But the seeing was unmistakeable. I remember laughing, asking "Seriously? Just this?" The opening was gentle, not too much of a fight because of previous "priming," frame of reference. Ever since then this seeing deepened and is integrating into everyday life, holding the view while living, until it became a spontaneous new way of being.

5) Can you talk about decision, intention, free will, choice and control? What makes things happen? How does it work? Give examples from experience.

After seeing through the illusion of a separate self, conventional reality still exists and this form continues until death/transformation. What happened is a perception shift whereas the ego/personality no longer deceives but still functions, now more malleable and open, no longer the controller. Even these words are shaped by previous experience, habits. Attachment ceased and there is observing of experiences, all happening naturally, arising in response to flow of events. I could say that previously decisions were more of a struggle-choice, spinning thoughts, now it's more akin to natural inclination, arising, like a flower emitting scent. There is a movement towards simplicity, to relax, simplify, let be, let go. Intention to promote joy and harmony and a deep compassion for all life. For instance, you choose to be a tattoo artist, I choose to be a librarian, and we both choose to align our life with liberation :) The choice becomes simple, to move toward what aligns with heart.

There is perception of both unity and multiplicity without contradiction between them. It just is. Life goes on, Helen buys groceries, cleans floor, takes care of family, helps friend, deals with problem, answers questions, rests when needed, but now no longer entangled, no longer upset, easy, smiling, breath by breath, moment by moment :)

6) Anything to add?

No :)

With much love,
Helen


Ilona: 
Thank you so much Helen, your answers resonate and sound clear. What you describe rings true and simple. Let me share this on the blog and let others enjoy the sweetness of your writing.

Much love.

Helen:
Thanks Ilona, please feel free to share :)

Love,
Helen