Tseng Tsang Hi Ilona,
I imagine this email will be in amongst hundreds of other requests for communication, however, if you are reading it, I guess I've reached the top. Hooray!
I would like to have a dialogue with you if possible. Not to get help to pass through, because the self-view that was, has recently been seen as illusory and the gradual collapse of patterning around that dream has begun. Do I want confirmation? Perhaps I'm curious; there are still waves of doubt that flush through but these periods are characterized by strange fears that I haven't seen what can't be seen! How could I?
I have a couple of friends who likewise have passed through the gate, entered the stream and so just before Christmas with them, coupled with reading your gateless gate conversations, I was born into the only reality that there is, or has ever been. So tremendous gratitude to you, for being part of that mysterious process.
Like many of your guests, I have practised mediation for many years. I was ordained a Buddhist in the Triratna western Buddhist order some years ago, after some 15 years of striving and intense passionate searching for truth.
Ahhh, Ahhh, so easy. So simple. Nothing else. Just a reduction to this moment, a collapsing of past and future, all the effort to shape this story of myself, to cling to the past and anticipation of the future and constant distortion of the gift which is nowness. Ahhh, Ahhh. One morning I cried at the trauma, that this world has been shaped from so many peoples sufferings, caused by attempts to make real what never will be. Will it ever all undo?
Over xmas, I just relaxed; the engine went out of it all, I sat about with my children and just drank them up, like a newborn myself, just lying about, loving the abundance of it all. I met my friend who also 'knows' and it was wonderful - I have seen, I said, I am here, at long last I can help, it was wonderful, for years he has been trying to get me to see and the veil must have been getting thin. We sat in a pub and nothing was different, only there was attention, and thought, and ideas, and sharing, and love and doubt and fear but all just rolling through this incredible moment of arising that could not be held or contained or described or understood. Ahh, it is good to remember and to share. But the truth of it lies in it being present even as I type, a month later.
Not sure if you even need to reply. The expression is enough. Well done for creating your amazing portal to reality.
With love and appreciation
Ilona
Hi Tseng Tsang
thank you very much for email. yes, i get a lot of requests for communication, but nothing that i can not handle, haha.
i'm so delighted to hear that gateless gate was crashed!
if you like to talk about anything, feel free to send ma message, i will reply.
there is a whole LU community on facebook, if you are on there already, please friend me. we have several groups where you can meet others that went through the same and it is great place to share and grow together. if you are interested to join, we ask some questions, that lets us make sure that yes, the gate was crossed. would you be interested in answering them?
lots of love.
Tseng Tsang
Jan 19
Hi Ilona,
Thank you for responding so quickly.
There is a pause before writing because I'm pondering motivations here.
I have a wonderful spiritual community to play with up here, and some close friends with whom I can communicate deeply and truthfully about practice beyond the realization. However, what you guys are doing and the magic that some of your youtube and gateless gatecrasher dialogues worked on me, draws me to your community and the language you use. Especially the revelations about lack of control - "no doer of the deed is found" etc.
I would like to answer some questions but not sure what forum to enter. I'm a bit shy you see! Not really. And our tradition is cautious around claims of attainment etc so keeping a low profile at mo- however, is there a little quiet room where a dialogue could take place, where I could be thoroughly MOT'd by someone who is skilled at recognizing how clever and subtle the language of ego can get. Perhaps someone who could spread a net so fine that no words of self could slip through? Do you know what I mean Ilona -
Why am I asking? Why is the snow settling in the garden?
Cheers
Ilona
It's very nice to hear that you have a spiritual community. I'm alone here, hope in time I find one too or maybe start one. The LU community is on Facebook, people are joining from all over the world, I have met few in person. It's wonderful to be able to talk to "awake" and just be in their company.
Here are the questions for you :
1) Is there a 'me', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?
2) in the experience, is there an experiencer? Is it body that experiences or is the body the experienced?
3) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works.
4) How does it feel to see this?
5)How would you describe it to somebody who has never heard about this illusion but is curious about it.
6) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look? Can you describe the moment when seeing happened?
7) Anything to add?
Please answer in full. Once you do, I can see if there are any areas that can be looked at and if not, you will be invited to join fb community. There are many beautiful characters there :)
Much love.
Ps. Yeah, there is some snow in the garden. :)
Tseng Tsang
Jan 22
Hi Ilona,
A bunch of words attached - some fossilized moments.
Thank you for looking.
love
Is there a 'me', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?
No, yes, words arising – the me that was constructed out of countless thoughts re-running experiences and labelling them as ‘past’, the me that emerged out of myriad imaginings of a fixed entity that would arrive in the ‘future’ and experience itself – that ‘me’ is kaboom! It was only ever a story, a narrative, only ever a dramatization constructed out of empty space. And in the present moment everything lives and dies, arises and passes away every moment and so is deserving of the ultimate praise. Why was the illusion of self, constructed, moulded? Perhaps because the alternative is to die in every moment and I guess that was too scary for the generations who went before and who were also victims of this conditioning and who were unable to just leave this child alone. See, it’s dangerous stuff this. Cause ‘I’m’ out-a here! So who the fuck is going to run the show? It’s completely unpredictable, no one is taking responsibility.
In the experience, is there an experiencer? Is it body that experiences or is the body the experienced?
Experience just emerges. Intentions arise but no one intends to intend. The question is asked and the conditions come together; your question, this body, odd bits of the Tseng Tsang story that want to be acknowledged such as “ I'm expressing this”, and low, words are typed - and there’s an answer. I love your next bit – does the body experience? I've seen you write and heard you say that the self is unreal but the body is real Ilona. Is the body real? Is the body any more real as an entity than Santa or the self? There is, right now, the warmth of the radiator on my back. But ‘radiator’ and ‘warmth’ and ‘back’ are all little Santa’s jumping down the chimney! The present moment is so mysterious and unlabellable. But now the biggest label of all ‘self’ has been seen, there is now more presence and so what is really happening is slowly becoming known.
Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works.
Words Ilona. How can they convey experience? There can be descriptions of what arises but is there a me experiencing these feelings, these thoughts, this breath? Is there a me in control of these fingers? My god, any sense of someone making this happen is illusory, I am happened to. The past and the future are just a dream and by clinging to thoughts and concepts associated with anything other than this exploding present moment – ‘I’ feed and nurture a distortion of what is. Of course the mind has dug grooves and so although the illusion is seen, the story blown open, there seems to be behavioral stuff emerging/shedding. Like a Pavlovian dog, it sometimes feels like I’m wearing heavy suites of doubt, or dullness, there are waves of fear and hours of irritation but they shed and don’t stick because the story that they belonged to, the narrative they relate to has ended and the lights have come on in the theatre hall. The show is over and the majority of the audience have gone home…..there are just a few grumpy, smelly old tramps on the back row and a stubborn actor who hasn’t quite left the stage.
How does it feel to see this?
This is now a collapse into controllessness. It’s like a building slowly coming down. Many behaviours have changed for the better. Patience has arisen where before there was little. Why? Not because I’m now patient but because there is nowhere to go anymore. There is no rush, and because the present moment is set free of much of the fog of past and future, it is so much more welcome. My children, previously such a drain, are now tumbling me into wonderful forgetfullnesses of playing and laughter. Whereas before my anxiety was a constant worry for my wife, now I am strong, I am present, I am at last some bloody use! And there is just action, there is just spontaneity, and a consistent need to keep looking at what this is; yes, some theorizing (I love thinking and ideas too) but more just looking, deeply seeing, aahhh this is fear, aaahh this is doubt, aaahh this is tiredness, aaahhh this is inspiration, aaah this is brown wet sludge.
5)How would you describe it to somebody who has never heard about this illusion but is curious about it.
I would say – how curious are you? What are you curious about? What do you want? Do you suffer – because some people’s illusory self seems to function pretty well and does not give rise to any questions about its reliability? But if you are serious about seeing this, then look at your experience and don’t stop until you see that you do not exist – literally, absolutely not there. If you feel a ‘but’ coming, look at that but, that but is doubt and doubt is a gift, doubt is the first sign that you see. Who is doubting? There is fear. Fear is a gift. Welcome that fear, don’t just note it – get into bed with it and ask, who is afraid, where is the self that is afraid? Be ruthless, waste no more time searching for states and trying to behave well – you will be doing that for ever – look now, who is controlling this?
6) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look? Can you describe the moment when seeing happened?
Where did the 20 years of searching and struggling go, where the countless meditation retreats? Where is the committed Buddhist who studied and was determined to find the answer to it all? Where are the humble disciple and the loyal ordained Tseng Tsang Where is the one who was pushing from behind? Are all those conditions in this present moment? Did all that happen to me? Did the cloud happen to the rain? Did the river happen to the sea? Did the seed happen to the tree? Are all those conditions supporting this truth, giving rise to this moment? ‘Time’ is an illusion that still holds sway. I see a tree in the garden heavy with snow; when the snow gets too much it will fall. But looking back, it looks like I was also shaken – by close friends and their deep relentless questioning, by you and Elena on Youtube and liberation unleashed and gateless gatecrasher. I relaxed just before Christmas (reminds me of you on a spa and Elena saying she was with Adyashanti), there was time to sit and look. There were several moments in which doubt came up and we held hands – ‘I’ and ‘doubt’ traveled down – ‘I’ and ‘fear’ dived down – and ‘I’ failed to come back up – there was just doubt aware of doubt and fear aware of fear.
Anything to add?
I see this leading to storyless responding; to spontaneous action informed less and less by illusion and more and more by reality. And what strange creatures we are. Pure human expression is something unfettered and arising from inside itself. Let us all melt away. Let us trust this river and watch and marvel at the gross and subtle attempts of the mind to pilot the raft, until raft and river and destination are one.
Thank you so much for reading. See you at the source.
Ilona
Thank you for fossilised moments, it was a pleasure to read this. Sorry it took a while to reply..
Haha, yes I say that body is real, but by real don't mean material objective, I mean that it is not imagined as Santa or unicorn. Out of context it sounds different, I agree. Language creates all kinds of distortions. How can we even communicate effectively with this limited tool.. And yet it's the only one we have..
Would it be OK to put our short conversation on my blog with your name or whatever name you choose? If you like to join the community, of course.
Sending love.
Tseng Tsang
Feb 2
Hi Ilona,
Thank you for your reply.
A pause before replying. Mistrust of something over here.
There is still so much patterning manifesting. It's like there are traces everywhere of relationships to 'my' life based on the old story of self. Wherever I look there are shades of likes and dislikes; even hints of the old depressive, grumpy temperament. And yet storylines collapse in on themselves much earlier and now the struggle and searching is over I've not got anything to impose on situations. Who's guiding things now?
From what you've read from me, would you agree that the gate is crashed?
Yes, you may put our conversation on your blog, with pleasure. Is there a secret passage to a secret community of secret nobodies somewhere who are sharing secret nothings?
Off to watch Looper.
Take care and keep up the cracking liberation work.
Love Tseng Tsang
Ilona
Feb 4
Hi again.
Hmm, are you having doubts? If so examine them, what is behind them? Is anything not the way it should be?
Yes, this is only a beginning of collapse of structures built on belief in separate I, it takes time to deconstruct and settle in. Patterns will come up, will continue to be seen and released. Key is to welcome everything.
Who is guiding things now? How would you answer that?
Sending love.
Tseng Tsang
Feb 4
Hi Ilona,
My god, yes, I'm having doubts. But the perspective remains – there is nothing behind the doubts; they are just thoughts that say “I have not seen, I am not free, I am myself, I do exist, things do endure, there is a continuity to reality, I can control and organize and make meaningful shapes out of experiences through time” and each of these thoughts drenches the body in subtly different feelings and emotions. And despite this, despite the truth that earlier this evening I felt rejected and disapproved of and threatened by your question, Ilona, ‘are you having doubts?’; despite this, there is a recognition that none of it is of my doing. I still fall into wanting what arises to permanently have the qualities of clarity and openness and inspiration, which at times they do and then it’s all too easy to think you've got it! But then when shapes emerge that seem not to be expressions of the oneness of things but which resemble shadows of the former self, it’s all too easy to think you've lost it. ‘Getting it’ and ‘Losing it’ are just the playing out of the controller, the games of ‘like and dislike’ that are still going on. And even here there is a subtle judgement that somehow I need to drop all grasping and rejecting - “This is the minds disease” so the ancient texts say. Is everything just the way it should be, you ask? It’s better to just give up and let the magic take over.
Who is guiding things now? Who? Who? Who? Who? Who is asking the question? Who? Who? Who is typing these words? Who is thinking these thoughts? Me? What does that ME even mean? Where is it? I bore down, searching intensely, and then realize that all that is found is ‘boring down’ and ‘searching’ and ‘intensity’ – and in looking for the guide, all that arises is the looking, and this will always be the case, the seeker will never be found. So, who is guiding things now? Christ knows Ilona but it’s bloody great to know it ain’t me! Perhaps it’s you chuck. What do you reckon? Really?
Love this dancing dialoguing. Thanks for playing along.
Tseng Tsang
Ilona
Feb 6
Oh, I love playing.
Cool, so the question is who?
But is it not a right question, there is no who, other then in language. Language is a tool for communication and words are sounds with assigned meaning, some words are symbols, others just pure grammar constructs. Word 'and' points to sum, word who points to subject that does action. But is that how things are? When we say grass is growing, is it grass doing the growing by managing what happens in growth department?.
The language is not only a tool of communication, but a building block of illusion of separation.
There is no who, there is only asking question. It's no one behind the asking or typing. Check now, is reading happening to someone? By someone? How do you do that? How do you read these words?
The seeker will never be found :) one day the search for seeker will vanish.
I reckon..
Tseng Tsang
Feb 7
Yes, wonderful, 'When we say grass is growing, is it grass doing the growing by managing what happens in growth department?'
When a dried leaf is blown along the pavement, is the leaf generating movement by itself? Is it the wind that causes the movement? What causes the wind? And what causes that, and that and that? There is no primal mover! There are no causes. When a thought blows through the mind, it does not generate itself, there is no initial place from which the thought is generated.
You are right, the question Who, is just searching for a place from which everything is generated. You could just as well say the blown leaf along the pavement causes the thought in the mind.
The present moment seems to be, somehow, just an explosion of effect without cause - cause is created from the illusion of time.
What I'm noticing, Ilona, is that as things move on, awareness is losing its interest in past and future, which is natural, because past and future are shadowy graveyards in comparison to the abundance of the present moment.
I have a question for you. You have probably heard of the Buddhist concept of Stream Entry which involves breaking the first three fetters - doubt, rights and rituals and fixed self-view. Beyond this the next fetters to go are hatred and sense desire (grasping and rejecting). What I see happening is that with the self-view breaking, the other two of the first three fetters follow, and now is a gradual withering of the patterns of control that were generated through the self-view years, and so grasping and rejecting are naturally winding down. However, do you think there is another Santa out there for the next fetters? I don't see that there could be, because things emerge as they do, there is no seeker to find a Santa, the next two fetters, to use that model, will just wither, not break, and that may take years.
What do you think? I'm bunged up with cold and off work today. Hope you well.
Tseng Tsang
Ilona
Feb 7
Hi Tseng Tsang
Yes, wonderful, 'When we say grass is growing, is it grass doing the growing by managing what happens in growth department?'
When a dried leaf is blown along the pavement, is the leaf generating movement by itself? Is it the wind that causes the movement? What causes the wind? And what causes that, and that and that? There is no primal mover! There are no causes. When a thought blows through the mind, it does not generate itself, there is no initial place from which the thought is generated.
You are right, the question Who, is just searching for a place from which everything is generated. You could just as well say the blown leaf along the pavement causes the thought in the mind.
It's the most haunting question "who am I?". There is no who and no I, just am :) seeing that is the end of looking for the who.
The present moment seems to be, somehow, just an explosion of effect without cause - cause is created from the illusion of time.
Cause is an idea, effect too.
There is this expression 'co-dependent origination', all that is arising is arising now interdependently of everything else, cause effect is the same thing. All is one no-thing. Arising in the present moment.
What I'm noticing, Ilona, is that as things move on, awareness is losing its interest in past and future, which is natural, because past and future are shadowy graveyards in comparison to the abundance of the present moment.
Yes, that is very visible after a while, mind no longer needs to refer to the past or project possible futures and look for solutions to non existent problems.
I have a question for you. You have probably heard of the Buddhist concept of Stream Entry which involves breaking the first three fetters - doubt, rights and rituals and fixed self-view. Beyond this the next fetters to go are hatred and sense desire (grasping and rejecting). What I see happening is that with the self-view breaking, the other two of the first three fetters follow, and now is a gradual withering of the patterns of control that were generated through the self-view years, and so grasping and rejecting are naturally winding down. However, do you think there is another Santa out there for the next fetters?
I am familiar with term of stream entry. I can say that yes, this is it, the rest unfolds naturally, there is no other Santa, but continuing settling in seeing that Santa is a fantasy story. Seeing that from all different angles in all possible situations. It is only a beginning and there are so many different doors to explore, this is significant and also not so huge as it may seem from the first look.
Basically, it's like a first glimpse, an opening to further opening. :)
The start of seeing emptiness of self in anyone or anything.
I don't see that there could be, because things emerge as they do, there is no seeker to find a Santa, the next two fetters, to use that model, will just wither, not break, and that may take years.
There is freedom from using models and purely finding what works for you.
What do you think? I'm bunged up with cold and off work today. Hope you well.
I hope you are feeling better. Sending a hug.
Tseng Tsang
Feb 8
Hi Ilona,
Much appreciation for the time you have spent following a few of these threads.
Yes - freedom from models, freedom from searching, freedom from asking who? freedom from needing to understand, freedom from any notion.
Just to finish, I approached you, after the event so to speak, and so, there is a kind of paradox or koan for me in our communication. I think my motives were mixed; part curiosity, part wanting a stamp of approval or a badge of recognition. People close to me up here can sense the impact this insight has had. I don't need their confirmation or approval, (not that much anyway); I witness it day to day in myself, in the way responses erupt and are gone, story-lines wither up and I seem to be being swallowed up in the present moment. But this approval seeking is a strong habit of mine and it was a dynamic that caused my Buddhist preceptors to pause before ordaining me. They paused for 11 years before they could see that I had enough individuality to practice more authentically.
And so, I must apologize for drawing you into this little back-water eddy. I think I've been trying to convince you of something, Ilona, so that you would give me a big thumbs up, an emphatic, literal YOU HAVE SEEN!
I have just re-read the first email i sent and will leave it with that as the rest is.... - a little sadness arises - a little humiliation -
"Over xmas, I just relaxed; the engine went out of it all, I sat about with my children and just drank them up, like a newborn myself, just lying about, loving the abundance of it all. I met my friend who also 'knows' and it was wonderful - I have seen, I said, I am here, at long last I can help, it was wonderful, for years he has been trying to get me to see and the veil must have been getting thin. We sat in a pub and nothing was different, only there was attention, and thought, and ideas, and sharing, and love and doubt and fear but all just rolling through this incredible moment of arising that could not be held or contained or described or understood. Ahh, it is good to remember and to share. But the truth of it lies in it being present even as I type, a month later.
Not sure if you even need to reply. The expression is enough. Well done for creating your amazing portal to reality."
With love and appreciation
Tseng Tsang
ps - thank you for this dance.
Ilona
Feb 8
Oh, don't worry about apologizing, I'm here for you so you can see what comes up and notice patterns :)
Wanting approval is one of 3 main wants. The other 2 are wanting control and wanting security. Releasing those wants is a big step to freedom.
One other little subtle thing- there is freedom from and as well freedom to.
Like freedom to experience whatever shows up without judgement. Freedom to feel intense emotions without resistance. Freedom to express whatever wants to be expressed without feeling of guilt and need for apologizing.
So if you notice the want for approval, it starts loosening it's grip. You may spend a day, a week or whatever long focusing just on this one want. Noticing when it pops up, how does it feel, where is sensation located and looking behind them sensations. What is there that wants approval?
And if it makes you feel better- here you go- yes, you have seen through illusion and what is happening now is beginning of integration. It's clean up time- all old patterns are coming up to be looked at, and if no longer working- released.
Sending love.
.....................................................................
Tseng Tsang
Mar 21
Hi again Ilona,
Hope all is well with you. You may remember our little chat just after Christmas. Thanks so much again for your time and attention.
Things continue to flow and emerge. I've been looking around LU website. Do you think I could copy our dialogue onto a new topic thread and see if others would like to respond.
love
Ilona
Mar 22
Hi Tseng Tsang , sure, feel free. Or if you prefer, we can talk a bit more. Last answer of yours was about mistrust, so I did not put the conversation on the blog as it felt unfinished.
Sending love.
Tseng Tsang
Mar 22
Hi there again,
I'm excited to get your response.
You are so right to say shall we talk some more. There is a loose end here for me that was left hanging, as you say Ilona, around mistrust. Something felt a little unclean at the end - like I became aware that I had partly used you and the LU stuff to get a pat on the back. And you very kindly gave me that pat but, as is often the case, what is grasped does not give the ultimate satisfaction you perhaps think it will.
Some months have passed now and there has been a settling into the way stuff is which has reduced the doubting waves and made them more familiar; thoughts bubble up as ever from the contact of mind with world, actions and intentions emerge out of the unfathomable void, and the mental gymnastics that used to take hold of experience and twist it up and stuff it into tight little boxes called past and present and me and mine, well that has dropped away - there isn't room for that shit any more - experience is abundant and sometimes it feels like they say the bodhisattva does - like an elephant plunging from one muddy pool to the next, fully immersed, at home, at work, in the bath, on this laptop.
So, Ilona, sincere apology for the messy stuff at the beginning, I guess it's inevitable when freshly hatched. Thanks for your attention and insight.
By the way, it may interest you to know that I am close friends with Samanatha and have connections with Tejananda and the other Triratna bunch who are appearing on LU.
Love this crazy game.
Would be nice to hear from you and please feel free to point me towards the right place on LU - or even tell me to keep clear of it -
thanks
Ilona
Mar 23
Thanks for message.
Yes, it would be good to finish and invite you to FB groups where you can connect with other LU-ers.
Can you say with unambiguous YES, that it is clear, that separate self is illusion? Can you confirm that seeing that there is no I at all happened?
Of there is anything at all that you want to address, bring it up here.
Lets see where you are and roll from there.
Sending love.
Ps, don't worry about past, what happened happened, no need to be sorry about it. I have no bad feelings...
Tseng Tsang
Mar 23
Morning Ilona,
I know you only have these words on a screen but is it still ambiguous after all?
I have nothing more to address Ilona, just to share and share and learn and deepen. The agenda's and strategies and searching and hoping and dissatisfaction and controlling that were aspects of self - they have vanished. There are still echoes and they can at times be deafening, there are still shadows and they can be dark and ominous, but YES the self that gave birth to all that stuff has gone. Just before Christmas.....Santa came for the last time, ha ha ha.
My life unfolds wonderfully. You should ask my wife. She knows, she could give you an unambiguous YES. See me with my kids, see how anxiety has reduced, how patience has arisen. I live a busy life. I work in a prison. I generally find myself absorbed in life. I kind of don't care anymore.......life is all around, I am absorbed in life, I am just response to what is here, I am a puppet with a million strings attached to everything, the wardrobe in this room is pulling strings right now which moves these fingers across the keyboard, and the wardrobe is having its strings pulled by the mirror on the wall which is pulled by the light that reflects from the snow outside........I am no more separate than each of these things to the other, no more separate than the light in the mirror is separate from the mirror.
Love Tseng Tsang
Ilona
Mar 23
Wonderful!
You work in prison? How interesting. That's sounds like hardcore environment. And so symbolic too.
You have nice poetic way to express in words, the puppet with million strings, hehe. I say there is no puppet, really, just play that plays itself. All arise simultaneously. No strings attached.
I'm so happy to hear that lots of unnecessary struggle vanished. I can feel that relaxation in you.
Maybe now it's the right time to put this on the blog and invite you to FB groups. What do you say?
Sending love.
Tseng Tsang
Mar 24
Dear Ilona,
'No strings attached'
Perhaps a good title for our conversations. And once more, thank you for your time and interest. You say everything arises simultaneously, hmmmm, I'll take that one away as a gift.........
I've looked at LU website but not sure how or if our conversations would fit in there.
Love
Ilona
Hi dear.
I will put this on my blog, then ask other guides to read and see if they have any questions.
If yes, I will pass them on to you, if no, I will invite you to LU Facebook groups. The community is there.
Give me a day or two.
Sending love.
(image from http://poisonvectors.deviantart.com/gallery/ , lots of great artwork there.)
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