MikeDear Ilona,
This feels somewhat strange writing to you, but I would like to ask you for some help or advice. I have been reading 'Gateless gatecrashers', looking at stuff on Liberation Unleashed and reading your and Elena's blogs. I have found it fascinating!
I have been practising Buddhism for some 30 years and feel that I have had some direct glimpses into the truth of no-self. However, though I can fairly easily come back to those glimpses, I do not seem to have found how to sustain them. My experience is one of perhaps having seen something, but not having really passed through that seeing into another way of being. Or something like that.
I read through the section of your blog 'Start here' and found myself doing some of the steps you describe there. It has been useful, and quite quickly brought me back into seeing something, but also into a feeling of pushing against something that I cannot yet move beyond.
Having started, I'm wondering now whether in fact you might be able to help me in some way. I don't expect you to do it for me, and it maybe that in the end you can't. I don't know.
As I say, it feels odd to be writing to you in this way. All I have to go on is your offer of help on your blog, and a sense that well maybe something fresh like this could help me see more fully.
I'll share with you what I wrote while exploring the first 3 steps you describe on your blog. I hope that is OK.
Step 1.- Clearing the path.
"There is no self at all in reality. No me that lives my life". I wrote this down as you suggested. What came up? Excitement. Doubt. Something just our of reach. Hoping. Heard it all before. Understand it, but can't 'realise' it. There is always the sense of 'me'.
There doesn't seem to be fear. More a sense of tiredness, of 'No, not again!'. Not wanting to push again into an understanding, a glimpse of 'no-self', and then for it just to fall away again and to be lost/caught up again in the endlessness of self. There is a sense of yes, I've seen it, but I just don't know how to pass through it and into a new way of being.
Step 2. - Strip away all expectations.
"What do you expect that liberation is going to be like?" A freer way of being, a lighter, more joyous way of being, not being caught in an endless loop.
"How do you imagine that a liberated human behaves'" Spontaneously.
"What do you not want it to be like?" There is some fear actually, fear that this 'no-self' stuff is just another mind-trip, a story, another way of fooling myself - perhaps the ultimate way. I hadn't seen that fear so clearly before.
Step 3. - Get in touch with real.
I imagined the spoon. Then opened my eyes. My eyes could not see a spoon. But I could still feel the spoon in my hand. There was still some experience of a spoon. In that sense it still existed. But I can see that it is just an experience - no different from the experience of holding a 'real' spoon.
I look around the room, as you ask, and notice what is real. It's all real, in the sense that it is experienced.
"Look - can you see the self?" Well, I do have an experience of self too. Just as I have an experience of the plant in front of me, there is an experience of self. And then there is an experience of 'me' experiencing this self. Even of me experiencing the me that experiences self.
And then it is lost and it is just ideas.
Ilona, If you can help that would be great. If not, then thanks anyway for your sites and for having written up these steps. I feel more engaged again with this work. Maybe I just have to stay with looking and hope that something will give?
Many thanks.
Ilona
Feb 6
Hi Mike,
Thank you for writing to me. I'm glad that the steps are helpful. One thing that stood out from your email:
"Look - can you see the self?" Well, I do have an experience of self too. Just as I have an experience of the plant in front of me, there is an experience of self. And then there is an experience of 'me' experiencing this self. Even of me experiencing the me that experiences self."
Is it true that you experience self just like the plant in front of you? Can you touch the self, smell it, see it with eyes?
Did you experience a spoon in the spoon experiment or an image of spoon felt vividly imagined by the mind? Is self like the real spoon or like imagined spoon? Do you see a difference? By real I mean that which does not disappear when you stop imagining it.
Write with whole honesty what comes up.
"What do you expect that liberation is going to be like?" A freer way of being, a lighter, more joyous way of being, not being caught in an endless loop.
Nice
"How do you imagine that a liberated human behaves'" Spontaneously.
Just like before, patterns, habits, character, preferences all stay, spontaneousness is not part of the package. See, there is no bondage already, so nothing happens.
"What do you not want it to be like?" There is some fear actually, fear that this 'no-self' stuff is just another mind-trip, a story, another way of fooling myself - perhaps the ultimate way. I hadn't seen that fear so clearly before.
Good stuff, this is great place to be as you are crossing boundaries, fear comes up to protect them, now look, what is it protecting? What is behind the fear?
And sure, there is a story about the journey to see no self, stories are part of package..
Kind regards
Mike
Feb 7
Dear Ilona,
Thanks so much for responding. I really do appreciate it very much. I got your email last night and your comments and questions seemed to stay with me till this morning.
No, I cannot touch the self, smell it nor see it with my eyes. But I do have a sense of self, somewhere. And yes it is very much like the spoon, which though not there I could still "feel vividly imagined by the mind". That describes very well my sense of self. I do feel it vividly, though I cannot get hold of it and it has the quality of something imagined by the mind.
I can see that Ilona, but then some vague fear or resistance comes up to actually fully accepting that or buying into that. I'm afraid to let go of this sense of 'me', that 'I' am.
Just like before, patterns, habits, character, preferences all stay, spontaneousness is not part of the package. See, there is no bondage already, so nothing happens.
This has shaken me quite a bit, you saying this. I don't know if I understand you right, but if what you're saying is true, then maybe I'm looking all wrong. What comes to mind is that I'm actually looking to free the self and you're saying that no, it's just freedom from self and nothing more. That feels like letting go of a whole lot of stuff, a whole attitude. I really can't say how radical this feels. Yet it's so obvious in some way. I'm hovering between feeling a fool, doubting and a kind of OMG feeling!
Good stuff, this is great place to be as you are crossing boundaries, fear comes up to protect them, now look, what is it protecting? What is behind the fear?
I'm afraid to let go. I'm afraid I may be trying to obliterate something essential to who I am. Maybe I'm afraid to really trust you, or at least what you are saying?
I can see that the sense of self, though there, is just an experience, just an 'idea' within consciousness. But I'm afraid to really take that on. It can feel like annihilation or something! And anyway, I'm not sure about how to really take it on. That seeing hasn't yet entered deep into me.
And sure, there is a story about the journey to see no self, stories are part of package..
So the stories continue. But we know they are only stories? In fact, we know that there are only ever stories?
Thanks for your time Ilona. I'm trying to be as honest as I can here. I'm trying to make this real. I sort of know what you are getting at, but I can't fully move into it yet. I don't know why. Is it just fear? I will continue to reflect and feel my way into this today. If you can stick in here with me I'd really appreciate it. I feel very open to what you have to say. And I feel moved by you being willing to give your time in this way.
Best wishes,
Mike
Ilona
Feb 7
Hi mike,
Thanks for answer.
Self of self, where is it? Can you pin point it? When is it felt the most and the least? Is that the same sense that could be labelled 'aliveness'? Is aliveness personal, is this sense of presence in control of what is being perceived? Can you see that sense + label creates an illusion of some entity?
The language and the way it works creates an illusion of subject and object, the doer of action. Is there anyone doing being? Is there anyone doing anything?
There is a exercise in this post, take your time with it, write to me what you notice.
Labels
Much love.
Mike
Feb 8
What I have been calling the sense of self seems to be everywhere and at all times, but I can't pin point it more than saying it's 'here'. It is what experiences. No, it is experience itself. As I hold the hot mug of tea in my hand there is an experiencing going on, of heat and weight and the solidness of the mug. I believe there is a 'me' experiencing that. But then I see that that 'me' is 'just' a part of the experience, it's not separate from the experience. There's not actually something, someone outside of the experience somehow 'having' it. It's just part of experience. What happens though is that I put the mug down and I write to you and there is more experiencing but of different 'things' and I presume that the same 'me' that experienced the mug is now experiencing the keyboard as I write.
You call it a sense of presence. Yes. Aliveness. That's what I am labelling 'self' and that then becomes a sense of 'self'. The sense of presence is there, it is a geunine part of experience. It is experience. Yes. But then something gets added. I make it into 'self'. Why? I don't know, I don't understand. 'I' don't make this sense of presence, I don't 'own' it. It just is there and I identify it as 'me'. Why? 'I' identify it as 'me'. Who? This sense of presence, this being is 'just' experience but there is no-thing, no-one outside of experience experiencing! There is no-one 'being'.
There is aliveness, presence, being, experience. But there's no me outside of that, separate from it, no me that is alive, present, being, experiencing.
OK, I'm just going to stay with this for a while Ilona. This seeing, feeling that there is no-one outside of experience experiencing. There is 'aliveness', a sense of presence, but no-one that somehow exists beyond that, that owns it, that has it.
I'll do the exercise about labelling, then I'll write about what I notice.
Not sure why but there's suddenly some strong emotion coming up with this. Not really sure what it is! Tears.
Thanks again,
Mike
Feb 8
I did the exercise. I don't now if I can exactly say what I noticed. Things seem to flow when I stopped using 'I' and 'me'.
There is no 'self'. There is a sense of self, but it is an illusion. It is just the way that experience presents itself. But really there is no-one that experience is happening to, no-one that makes experience happen. It all goes on just as always, but the sense of self is not literal. Nor the sense of other.
There is nothing to be done, no 'I' that needs to be liberated. Ha! It's all a big mistake. A kind of trick. There's still experience, still living, still presence, but the 'I' behind it all, read into it, that it supposedly happens to, is not real. Even though 'I' think it is. But it's just a thought, or more than that - an interpretation. It doesn't exactly go away, but it's not real. It doesn't point to anything actually existing, does it?
Experience doesn't change. The story is still around, but it's just a story. Just a belief that got a hold of things but doesn't actually correspond to anything real.
A while ago I had a strong feeling come up of 'I can't do this' and then immediately the realisation there's no 'I' to do it or not do it. There's no 'I' to do, or to be done to. No 'I' that things happen to. There's just seeing through 'I' as an illusion. Even if it doesn't exactly go away.
I read what I write and I don't know if it says what I mean. I don't know if words help or hinder. Clarity comes and goes.
Is it really this simple? I still struggle to really see what I seem to be seeing. Is it possible to see that 'I' is an illusion but there still to be a 'sense of self', a story that goes on, even though it's known to be just a story and not a real 'thing' ?
Thanks for being there to write to. It's good to be able to do this Ilona. Whoever you are. I hope writing like this is OK for you. I imagine it's all very simple for you and yet you put up with the likes of me doing a lot of waffling! I would like to arrive at that place of simplicity - but maybe the idea that I will arrive anywhere is in fact the problem.
Love, Mike
Mike
Feb 9
Hi Ilona,
I've realised that I am trying to convince myself there is no self. But actually I obviously believe there is a self.
I believe self to be real Ilona. I now want to know whether that belief is true or not. I can intellectually convince myself that it is not, I think. But that is not the same as knowing. I want to really know, not just convince myself (because it is what my teacher - the Buddha - and others say, including you).
Some say it is not real. Men and women I really respect. I am really interested in the possibility that self does not exist. I'm willing to really look at my belief and I want to have real communication with someone who says they really see that there is no-self. I'd like that to be you because just being in touch with you is helping. I have literally hundreds of Buddhist friends I could talk to, but there is something good about your direct approach. From what I've read on your blog, from what I've seen on you videos, you strike me as honest and authentic in your communication and being. But... I'm no longer going to do so with the idea of trying to convince myself that self is an illusion. If it is, I want to see for myself. And if it is real, I want to see for myself.
I believe 'I' am, self is. It's a lie to say otherwise Ilona. Now I want to know if that belief is true. I want to really look at it. Really recognise and look at this central belief. But not with the attitude of trying to make it go away, that it shouldn't be there. Maybe self is real, maybe it is not.
I think I'm ready to really look at this now for the first time in my life. I don't really care what the truth is. I just want to know, for myself directly.
Ilona
Feb 10
Now you are talking!
To see it for yourself, you just need to look.
You may start from defining for yourself what word Real points to. Then see if word self points to anything real.
Good place to look is what comes up, when you consider that separate self is an illusion, there never was a self, i, that has free will and is in control of life. Is it true? Is the opposite truer?
In your experience right now, is there an I that experience is happening to?
Sending love.
Mike
I am looking.
"In your experience right now, is there an I that experience is happening to?"
I am looking at what I consider to be me, self. A collection of feelings in the body, here, that I feel to be 'I', that I identify as 'I'. And something else.
I see self, as an object. Though self is by nature subject! So I am trying to see the 'I' that is looking at self.
I can see that 'I' is itself an experience that 'I' am having. That is where things are at at the moment. My attention is fully on this experience of 'I'.
To put it another way, there is experience of an 'I' . But I don't know who is having that experience! But I presume/believe someone is. I'm just trying to see that clearly and stay with it. I am trying to look, really look, not just think.
Does this make sense?
I am travelling for the next few days but will try to continue to write. I'm loving doing this, and feel incredibly focused on it.
With heartfelt thanks.
Ilona
Feb 11
Hope your travelling is smooth and interesting :)
How do you experience this I? Where is it in the body? Or is it outside the body? Is it the body itself?
How would you describe the sensation of I? Which of the senses perceive it-
Smell, taste, hearing, seeing or touching? Maybe it is in feeling or in thinking? Can you find this I and tell me where it is. Take your finger and point to it, where does the finger point to?
What does it mean?
Is there an experiencer to which experience is happening or it's all one, with no gap. Investigate this and get back to me when ready.
Have fun :)
Sending love
Mike
Feb 13
Hi
I'll try to explain where things are at, but I don't find it easy to put into words without falsifying it.
What I think of as self is a set of associated physical sensations in the body, especially the upper chest, throat, lower/back of the head area. It is also an inner voice and an idea that somehow this all constitutes a self.
However there is a slowly growing seeing that all this is something taking place IN experience, not something outside of experience that is experiencing. It is just an idea, a voice, a set of physical sensations. There isn't something, someone experiencing the experience from outside of the experience.
I don't know what it is, what experience is, but I have at least moments of seeing - not just thinking - that there isn't necessarily an experiencer. That is wonderful, weird and I think a bit terrifying!
But there is also doubt and resistance to this seeing, an unwillingness to let go into it.
I find it difficult to write about. I need to keep looking. I see, have a growing conviction, knowing, that I is an idea, not an actually existing, separate entity, but there is still doubt, indecision and falling into an habitual way of being based on not seeing. And I think there is some fear around letting go.
But it feels like something is becoming clearer. I want to stay with this though it requires a kind of relaxed effort that is sometimes hard.
Thanks for being there :-)
Ilona
Feb 14
Hi mike
Thank you for email, I can see that now you have started to look. Keep noticing what is obvious.
You said:
What I think of as self is a set of associated physical sensations in the body, especially the upper chest, throat, lower/back of the head area. It is also an inner voice and an idea that somehow this all constitutes a self.
So to say that in short, self is sensations + voice in the head.
Is it a specific one sensation or a bundle? What happens when you start looking at those sensations? What is behind them?
Is taste sensation self?
Is touch sensation self?
Is visual sensation self?
Is sensation of inner voice self?
Is movement of energy in chest area self?
Notice that voice in a head is a labelling machine. Where attention goes, so narration follows. Are you in control of it? Or is or more like a radio channel, talking away, no matter if anyone is listening.
Sending love.
Mike
Feb 14
Hi
So to say that in short, self is sensations + voice in the head.
Yes, plus an idea that all that is 'self'
Is it a specific one sensation or a bundle? What happens when you start looking at those sensations? What is behind them?
It's a bundle. When I look at them there is nothing behind them. They are just what they are, sensations etc. There is nothing more than that. There is certainly no self there, though I have always identified them as 'self' - and still fall into doing so, even though I can see they are not!
Is taste sensation self?
Is touch sensation self?
Is visual sensation self?
Is sensation of inner voice self?
Is movement of energy in chest area self?
None of these sensations are self in themselves, nor are thoughts. Thoughts are just thoughts, the inner voice is just a narration, the sensations and energy are just sensations and energy, something alive, something fluid, something arising and falling away, but not a 'self'.
Notice that voice in a head is a lab belong machine. Where attention goes, so narration follows. Are you in control of it? Or is or more like a radio channel, talking away, no matter if anyone is listening.
No, 'I' am in control of this inner voice to some extent. Well, not I, I can't find an 'I' now! What I mean is that when there is awareness of it, it calms down, fades away or is more directed.
There is no separate self found. What 'I' have thought of as self, well there's actually nothing there more than a collection of shifting sensations etc. This is slowly sinking into awareness, but it's like it has not penetrated very deep into 'my' being. Like this being can't really accept it yet. Though there is a growing conviction, a knowing in the heart, that self is just a fabrication, a ghost, a story, a mirage.
There's generally a sense of a calm, gentle unfolding of something that is still not completely clear. Yesterday I had a moment of seeing that self is empty, just something I am reading into experience, intuiting it more clearly and at that moment there was something like a rush of adrenalin. I took it to be fear, but I'm not sure it was exactly fear. More a sudden falling away of the ground under my feet and a rush! Sort of like falling through into life itself and a feeling of vertigo. However, apart from that there seems to be simply a growing trust that this is just the way things are and that something is unfolding naturally.
There is a desire for intense communication with you, but I know that the only thing that really matters is just to keep looking. There is still some expectation or longing for something to 'snap', 'pop', 'break' or whatever, and because it doesn't despondancy can arise. But I'm seeing that no, this denies a deeper, gentler, more organic unfolding that is real.
Hovering between feeling that much more intense effort is needed to 'break through', on the one hand, and on the other, feelings of OK, something is being seen, trust in that, go with it, relax into it, what has been seen is real, there's further to go but something has opened up, something is now playing itself out. There's a sense that it is the latter that needs to be recognised and allowed to flow, but there are also feelings of not wanting more delusion. Also probably an habitual tendency to intensity and lack of courage when it comes to just letting go into what is emerging!
Ilona, do you have a sense of what is needed? Does it matter?
With love and heartfelt thanks for taking the time to help. It is extraordinary and completely unexpected. I'm not even sure how this has come about!
Ilona
Feb 14
Thanks for answer, nice work.
So self is an idea, not a sensation and not a thing that is behind sensations to which sensations happen.
What does it mean in daily life?
I see the process is going smooth and there is trust in what is coming up, keep going.
The waiting for the pop now is one of obstacles. The shift may be unnoticeably subtle.
When you open your eyes and see the view, do you need to switch seeing on?
Can you switch hearing on and off at will?
How about other sensations?
The same is with this expected break through, there is nothing to break through, all is already here, now, just notice, what is obvious. There is sense of presence, aliveness, being (verb) is there anything missing? Does anything need to fall into place? Focus on being (verb), was this sensation ever different?
If there is no I at all, can this imagined I realise that it does not exist?
Sending love.
Mike
Feb 15
Thanks for getting back yesterday.
Not much to say at the moment in terms of seeing. Feelings of confusion. Has self really been seen for what it is, an illusion? If so, nothing has really changed. The imagined 'I' still kicks in, is still here, just that now it doesn't have such a hold. It's not taken literally. But damn does it still pull and push and sometimes rule!
What does it mean in daily life knowing that self is an idea, something imagined, not really real? To be completely honest, it doesn't mean that much at the moment! There is maybe a change in how 'I' am with other people, more present, less concerned about 'me', more empathy. But I still get caught up in 'I' and 'me' etc. Moments of letting go, more of a sense of flow, but then that passes.
There is still an 'I' wanting to see through 'I'. Your question "If there is no I at all, can this imagined I realise that it does not exist?" seems to point to where understanding fails. It's driving me nuts! It takes my breath away. It's an unanswerable puzzle, a koan. And it's a really uncomfortable place to be! I don't like it and find it heard to stay with it. It corners 'me' and something inside is squirming like hell!
Been feeling that maybe I've seen absolutely nothing. 'I' am still trying to see through 'I'. On one level I know 'I' is imagined - I see it - but even so 'I' am still there seeing!. Looking for the break through or something. There is still 'me' wanting to be free.
Will try to write more later. Feeling sad, sorry that I cannot say to you 'Yes, I've got it'. Feeling very vulnerable. Like that last question points right at me. It is almost sort of humiliating! Like 'I' am still trying to get away with it, but you've seen. Feeling I'm taking up your time, still not getting real or something.
With love
Mike
Feb 15
'I' does not exist as something real - that is increasingly clear. I see that. 'I', 'self' does not really exist. Nothing in experience is actually 'I'. There are just sensations, thoughts etc, ideas, labels, habits in awareness, consciousness...
But there is still a feeling that 'I am'. Still a sense of subject and object.
This is what is confusing. Perception, seeing, experiencing, being, still hold a sense of a subject experiencing, a 'me', though I know and see there is no 'I' there.
I don't understand, but that is the way things seem to be. It kind of makes me laugh, but also to doubt.
Is it possible to see that self is an illusion and yet for there to still to be this sense of a 'me' experiencing?
Ilona
Feb 15
'I' does not exist as something real - that is increasingly clear. I see that. 'I', 'self' does not really exist. Nothing in experience is actually 'I'. There are just sensations, thoughts etc, ideas, labels, habits in awareness, consciousness...
Has it ever existed?
But there is still a feeling that 'I am'.
Yes, feeling is here + the label. If you label the feeling by verb being, does anything get lost?
Still a sense of subject and object.
At this point it is good to investigate how language is involved in the illusion. This article will give you some directions The Trick of Language
See what else you notice.
This is what is confusing. Perception, seeing, experiencing, being, still hold a sense of a subject experiencing, a 'me', though I know and see there is no 'I' there.
See is life is happening to me or as me. To I or as I expression?
I don't understand, but that is the way things seem to be. It kind of makes me laugh, but also to doubt.
Hehe, whole thing is well funny. :)
Is it possible to see that self is an illusion and yet for there to still to be this sense of a 'me' experiencing?
Is it sense that is experiencing or sense is experienced? Is there a gap?
Sending love.
"There is still 'me' wanting to be free."
Can you find that feeling, that sensation of wanting to be free, bring it closer and see what is behind it? What is behind, wanting to be free?
Mike
Feb 16
Thank you Ilona.
Has it ever existed?
No. 'I', 'self' has never existed as a separate entity. It's always been there, but as something imagined, read into experience, an interpretation of experience, or in experience.
If you label the feeling by verb being, does anything get lost?
No, I don't think so!
There is being (verb). There is awareness, aliveness. But nothing separate from it, that experiences being. You ask if there is a gap. No, I can't see a gap. There is superficially an object being experienced, and a subject 'me' experiencing. But actually if I look it, it all seems to be happening together. Any idea or feeling of an 'I' is actually just more experience. There is just being - but being there is!
I read the article on language, Thank you. It is almost impossible to talk and think about experience in any way that does not involve a subject and an object. But it's also a trap if taken literally. And a very difficult trap to get out of! There is no literal 'I', and really no literal 'other', but being (verb) is experience, consciousness. Being is not a thing, not an 'I', and there is no 'I' that is being, but neither is 'it' nothing.
See if life is happening to me or as me. To I or as I expression?
Yes, that helps too. Life is happening as 'me'. In fact, it's not even quite that 'I', that being, is an expression of life. Being just is life. There is nothing separate from life, no 'I' that life is happening to or that is watching life, or making it happen, or even giving expression to it.
Is it sense that is experiencing or sense is experienced? Is there a gap?
Yes, this sense of 'me' is something experienced, or rather it is in experience. I make a gap by turning what is sensed into something real, separate. But actually there is no gap, it is all happening in experiencing, in being.
Can you find that feeling, that sensation of wanting to be free, bring it closer and see what is behind it? What is behind, wanting to be free?
I need to look at this more closely still. I know that this wanting to be free emerges from the illusion that there is an 'I' that is not free. There is no 'I' to be free or trapped. But this wanting to be free, to break through or whatever, still acts like a hook somewhere. I want to keep looking closer, more directly at this. Will try to do so and write again. Your question 'Can this imagined 'I' realise that it does not exist?' still haunts me. This imagined 'I' is on some level still trying to realise it does not exist, still trying to get free. It's like this imagined 'I' imagines it does not exist! Again, it does make me laugh, but I just can't quite shake it off.
Curious process this!
Ilona
Feb 17
Hehe, it definitely is a curious process and very eye opening.
From your answers I see that clarity is growing by day. Very nice.
Lets look closer at this sense of longing for freedom.
Imagine you are in a closed box and all you want to do is get out. Imagine how you struggle and seek an opening so you can see what is outside the box. Feel the frustration and sense of wanting to break free.
This is how this search is like- imagined I is looking for freedom from imagined prison.
There is no box already.
There is no I already.
Freedom is here, just waiting to be noticed and recognised.
If you stop imagining the box you can see, that it never was here, just a trick of imagination. And imagination is very powerful tool.
So it's ok to relax and notice what is here already always free, boundless and limitless. There is no need to fight imaginary prison. It is not here. The I is not here.
What is here?
Sending love.
Mike
Feb 18
Sorry not to have replied earlier. Things have got a bit busy.
The longing to break through or whatever seems to be fading. More of a sense of just being, I think. Falling into the story of an 'I' trying to see that 'I' is not real still goes on, but doesn't perhaps have such a grip? At least not yesterday and today!
Waking in the morning there does seem to be some kind of resistance still going on. Seems to be a sort of reaction to making effort that in some way is still a bit wilful or something. What I have noticed though is a growing confidence in 'I' being an illusion, even when the 'I' tendency re-emerges or awareness/mindfulness is lost. There seems to be a basic trust, a basic knowing now that 'I' is something imagined, and that knowing or whatever is becoming more and more of a resting place.
What is here if the imaginary prison and I are not here? Really not sure. Something very, very simple though. Feelings, thoughts, sensations, responses, imagination, ideas, language, likes and dislikes, emotions. But they are just much simpler in some way. Don't know quite what it is, how to put it. Maybe it's that they are just what they are, without some complication. I hadn't really noticed till you asked, but there's definitely something to look at more here. Experience has somehow got 'simpler', I don't know what other word to use. Amazingly simple really! Makes me really happy noticing it now as I write.
It really does focus things writing to you like this. Even when things get busy. Thank you!
Ilona
Feb 20
How is it going mike?
Here is something for you to work with. It's called Bahiya sutta
Spend a day looking thought this angle and write what you noticed.
In the seen, there is only the seen,
in the heard, there is only the heard,
in the sensed, there is only the sensed,
in the cognized, there is only the cognized.
Thus you should see that
indeed there is no thing here;
this, Bahiya, is how you should train yourself.
Since, Bahiya, there is for you
in the seen, only the seen,
in the heard, only the heard,
in the sensed, only the sensed,
in the cognized, only the cognized,
and you see that there is no thing here,
you will therefore see that
indeed there is no thing there.
As you see that there is no thing there,
you will see that
you are therefore located neither in the world of this,
nor in the world of that,
nor in any place
betwixt the two.
This alone is the end of suffering.
Sending love.
Mike
Feb 21
Hi
I know this sutta quite well. But it has been good to now really look at things through this perspective, Thank you for sending it. It feels like the sutta describes and deepens something known now, rather than 'me' trying to know and understand the sutta.
What have I noticed? The simplicity of experience mentioned in the last email. A 'wholeness' of experience. And a couple of moments of strongly experiencing existence just happening, just unfolding, just being. Phenomena just arising and fading away. No 'in here' or 'out there', no sense of separation, no 'me'.
This seeing is by no means continuous, Ilona, but it is readily accessible if I just stop and actually look. This is what needs establishing, stopping and looking. A continuous looking . When there is looking, increasingly there is this simplicity of experience without a supposed separate 'me' looking, without separate 'things' being looked at. But at times there is no real looking and old ways of seeing arise. Irritation and craving based on 'I' still are there at times. Though 'no-self' is seen, when daily activity pulls me away that seeing is at times not strong enough to see 'no-self' in every moment, every place, at all times.
The Bahiya sutta now seems a very precious guide to what has been glimpsed and what needs deepening. It is beautiful in its simplicity and directness. It feels just right. Thank you!
Writing to you, every time something seems to fall into place.
With love
Ilona
Feb 21
Dear mike,
I'm glad that the sutta landed in the right place and is doing it's work.
Yes, seeing it once is an opening, and its always available when looked. The more you look, the more is seen trough and all starts falling in the place. But at the same time, old patters and structures start falling off, nothing that is not true stays. So stuff comes up to be noticed and released. This is a huge clean up operation. Life time of conditioning does not get undone in one hit. Lots of people expect this to be an end of suffering or unwanted emotions. But it's just a beginning. How it is for you is unique. Trust your experience and keep looking :) Getting lost in stories is too an experience. Just they are no longer seen as real, don't need to be taken seriously.
I wrote a new post on my blog, it may be helpful..
Sending love.
Mike
Feb 23
Hi
Thanks for the blog post. Very helpful reflections. There are still expectations of what the experience of seeing through self should be like. "Trust your experience and keep looking" is really helpful advice at the moment. Thank you!
A simple, obvious realisation today, but one that seems to have shifted something a bit. It's realizing that even when 'I'-ness habits, emotions etc re-emerge, there is still no self; even when 'I' imagined 'I' to be real, there was no self; even though others seem to imagine 'I' is real, there is no 'I' there. There never has been, never is, and never will be 'I', no matter what!
You wrote that there is a huge clean-up operation. I can see that. Still a whole legacy of ignorance to live through. Sometimes it seems a struggle to hold that and at the same time trust. But the sense of struggle is really just more expectations. Things flow on, sometimes good, sometimes not so good, but that needn't be a struggle. No 'I', no expectations, no suffering.
"Trust your experience and keep looking".
Magic!
Love
Ilona
Feb 23
:)
A simple, obvious realisation today, but one that seems to have shifted something a bit. It's realizing that even when 'I'-ness habits, emotions etc re-emerge, there is still no self; even when 'I' imagined 'I' to be real, there was no self; even though others seem to imagine 'I' is real, there is no 'I' there. There never has been, never is, and never will be 'I', no matter what!
This is a huge step, step over the line.
How does it feel to see this?
What do you notice in your daily ordinary situations? What is the same and what feels different?
Sending love.
Mike
Feb 25
Hi Ilona,
What is the same, what feels different? Everything is the same. But there is less stickiness in relation to what arises. 'I' attitudes, emotions, thoughts arise, but it's like they don't have anywhere to hang on to, to stick to. They come, they pass and that's that.
Yesterday I was with friends and there was a strong seeing that they are not 'I's either. In the seeing of this there was then no responding to them as 'I's, no expecting anything of them, no wanting them to be this or that. There was love I guess, but not love as something that arises because they are how I want them to be. There was joy and a deep appreciation of them as 'life', just 'being'.
Something I have been noticing is that I have been sleeping loads. Maybe it's coincidence. It feels like I could sleep for a hundred years! It doesn't feel wrong, it feels more like a deep resting is needed just now. Sometimes a strange meloncholy is there too. A kind of dropping away of something, though I don't know if I can say what.
How does it feel to see that there is and never been this 'I'? Great! 'Connected' is what comes to mind. A simple 'being'.
Do you know those images where if you look at them in a certain way you can suddenly see the image in 3D? The experience of seeing the image is a bit like how this seeing of the illusion of 'I' is. Below is an image with a description of how to see it in 3D. Until you've done it it's really hard to see, but once you've done it that's it. You know there really is a 3D image there, and it's easier to see whenever you want. You just need to practice a bit, get more confidence, train yourself in seeing 3D.
This is what it's a bit like at the moment with seeing there is no 'I'. I know there is no 'I' because I keep seeing it. Sure, I often slip back into seeing in 2D, but seeing in 3D is becoming more comfortable or something. Of course the analogy is very limited, but seeing no-self feels like a completely new way of looking. Unlike the 3D image, it's just looking and seeing what actually is.
And my overall sense of seeing that 'I' is not real is not a lack of something, but a seeing of something. There is something else which becomes visible or sensed once the 'I' is seen through.
With love, joy and appreciation
Oops! Sorry, the image doesn't seem to want to be e-mailed.
You can see images here.
.....................
“The cross-eyed view method uses the right and left images exchanged and views the images cross-eyed with the right eye viewing the left image and vice-versa.
In order to do so, hold up a finger or pencil in front of the image about 1/3 to 1/2 way to the screen. Look at the pencil but concentrate on the doubled images on the screen. Move the pencil closer or further until they overlap to produce three images. The center one should be 3d, but out of focus. Then you need to shift your focus onto the center image without having it jump back to 2d.”
Mike
Feb 28
Dear Ilona
I am wondering now where things are at regarding our conversation. It has been so helpful, and you have been so kind in giving over time to help.
I have no doubt now regarding the illusory nature of 'self'. However, you may think or feel that there is still a need to see more clearly or more deeply. I am completely open to that.
Do you have a suggestion about where our conversation should go from here?
With love
Ilona
Feb 28
Hi mike, sorry I did not respond earlier..
Your 3d analogy is great and thanks for all them pics and link, it was well interesting to see :)
I'm so happy to hear that illusion of separate self has been seen through. You mention that you feel that something need a to be seen deeper, what would that be? Have you got some questions that we could look together? Bring them on.
Can you say with full honesty that YES, the shift has happened? If do, are you ready for final questions?
Sending love
ps, I read all emails, just some days can not answer all.. In that case, just write to me anyway. Writing helps mind to focus, you know that ;)
Mike
Mar 1
Thanks Ilona.
Can I say with full honesty that Yes, the shift has happened?
What I can say is that I now see being but not a being, presence but no presence in that presence. I see self, but not a self, soul but not a soul. There is no 'I' that has or 'owns' this being or presence, no 'I' in self or soul, no 'I' outside of experience that is watching or controlling. That is what I see. There is a bundle of associated processes that form being, 'souling'. A sense of 'I' can arise in the midst of these processes, but it is make believe, it doesn't refer to anything actually existing.
In these conversations with you I have gone from wanting to convince myself there is no 'I', to accepting that actually I do believe in an 'I' and being prepared to really look at that, to then seeing that no, there is no 'I' but still with expectations of what that means and what I should see and feel, to seeing that those expectations are still 'I' (the imagined 'I' trying to see that it does not exist), to seeing that just as there is no 'I' neither is there 'other', and to now seeing more clearly that though there is no 'I' and no 'other' there is still being (a verb, as you so well put it), still soul, presence, experience or whatever, still the mysterious unfolding of life as 'self and other', but without an 'I' and not as separate 'things'.
Does that make sense?
This is what has happened. It has not been a big, sudden change, but has been gradual and feels like it comes on the back of a gradual process of many, many years. But the conversation with you has pushed that process into a space of clarity and seeing. Is it the shift that you are trying to help me and others make? When I read what you write about that shift, I think yes, it is.
I don't know if there is something deeper to see, but my experience with all this is that nearly every day something new falls into place! The implications of what I am seeing open up. I still seem to be seeing new things, or the same thing but with greater clarity. My experience is that yes, there is still deeper seeing to discover, that this seeing through the illusion of 'I' is actually just a new beginning. But that may be beyond the scope of your work, of simply helping others to see through the illusion of 'I'.
With love
Ilona
Mar 3
Very nice!
Does that make sense?
Yes, makes perfect sense. The imagined I can stop looking now if it exist or not. It's imagined. :)
This is what has happened. It has not been a big, sudden change, but has been gradual and feels like it comes on the back of a gradual process of many, many years. But the conversation with you has pushed that process into a space of clarity and seeing. Is it the shift that you are trying to help me and others make? When I read what you write about that shift, I think yes, it is.
Yes, shift can be very subtle, but implications are immense.
I don't know if there is something deeper to see, but my experience with all this is that nearly every day something new falls into place! The implications of what I am seeing open up. I still seem to be seeing new things, or the same thing but with greater clarity. My experience is that yes, there is still deeper seeing to discover, that this seeing through the illusion of 'I' is actually just a new beginning. But that may be beyond the scope of your work, of simply helping others to see through the illusion of 'I'.
Haha, this is just a beginning :) there is so much to explore when seeking ends, fun begins, even though it does not always feel like fun..
With love
How are you feeling today? Anything interesting that you've been noticing?
Are you ready for the final questions?
Much love to you, mike.
Mike
Mar 4
Hi Ilona
Am I ready for the final questions? I guess so, if you feel it's important that I answer them.
Love
Ilona
Mar 4
to Mike
Answering those questions gives you an opportunity to clarify more. So here they are :)
Please answer in full, when ready.
Much love.
Mike
Mar 4
Hi
Answering those questions gives you an opportunity to clarify more. So here they are :)
OK
1) Is there a separate 'me' 'I' 'self' , at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?
No
2) in the experience, is there an experiencer? Is it body that experiences or is the body the experienced?
There's just experience. The body neither experiences, nor is it experienced in the sense of a separate 'I' experiencing it. I don't think I can say more than what I more or less wrote to you the other day: there is being but not a being, presence but no presence in that presence. I see self, but not a self, soul but not a soul. There is no 'I' that has or 'owns' this being or presence, no 'I' in self or soul, no 'I' outside of experience that is watching or controlling or that is having the experience. That is what I see. There is a bundle of associated processes that form being, and it is dynamic. A sense of 'I' can and does arise in the midst of these processes, but it is make believe, it doesn't refer to anything actually existing.
3) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works.
The illusion of a separate self is the belief that somehow there is a me outside of experience - an 'I' that things happen to, or that is somehow separate from thoughts, decisions, acts etc and sort of 'does' them. I think it starts with some aspect of awareness, being, presence or whatever getting mistaken for an 'I' and then that implying a 'them', or an inside and outside, subject and object etc. Experience is split up and parts of it are identified in one way or another with this supposed 'I' (and other parts as 'them' or 'things') and then that identification is taken literally.
4) How does it feel to see this?
There is a simplicity to things, to experience. Experience is just what it is. Sometimes this simplicity is beautiful, awesome, exciting, but more often than not it is sort of normal really. As I say, it is not that a sense of 'I' no longer arises at all, but there is a freedom in relation to it when it does arise. It's known to be just a sense of 'I', and not a real 'I' - and that brings freedom, relief and sometimes real joy!.
5)How would you describe it to somebody who has never heard about this illusion but is curious about it.
It's nothing mystical. It's quite straightforward in a way. It's just being prepared to look at what this basic belief is, whether it is true or not, and seeing that actually things aren't nearly as complex as you thought! It's not a big spiritual experience, it's just seeing what is. It doesn't mean annihilation nor does it mean becoming some spiritual super-being. But it does change things. It feels like a new beginning - though nothing has actually changed from how things have always been.
6) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look? Can you describe the moment when seeing happened?
I don't think I can no! It's been such a gradual process really. However, writing to you Ilona there were some key moments.
- when I stopped trying to convince myself that 'I' is an illusion, and accepted that actually on some level I still believed in an 'I'
- then being prepared to REALLY look at that belief
- seeing that I couldn't find 'I' - maybe this was when seeing basically happened. I saw that 'I' was actually just a bundle of sensations and thoughts, along with the idea of an 'I', but that it was all actually taking place WITHIN experience, as part of experience.
- becoming aware of expectations, and seeing that at their core was just an imagined 'I' trying to see that it didn't exist - this was important too - seeing that there is no 'I' doing the seeing.
- seeing that 'other' is no truer than 'I'
- seeing that though there is no separate 'I' there is being, awareness, presence etc - the unfolding of 'life'.
7) Anything to add?
Not really, not at the moment Ilona.
Love
Ilona
Hi mike,
I really enjoyed reading your answers, you put all so simply and perfectly, thank you. I can see that non existent gate has been crashed, yey! I'm very happy for you.
Could I put this on my blog? It may be of help for someone else. I can you your name or whatever name you choose, does not matter. Once other guides read our conversation, they may have some questions too, or I can invite you to join Facebook groups, where you can meet other LU members and share with them.
Lots of love to you! Have a wonderful day.
Mike
Hi Ilona,
No, I don't mind you putting our conversation on your blog if it is going to help.
Yesterday I had a slightly odd experience. I was in the kitchen, making a cup of tea, looking at how there was just experience, with no 'I' outside of it. Suddenly it was like this little current ran through my body and an even deeper experience opened up of sort of 'oneness' with what was going on, with experience. It was like awareness and experience sort of melted into each other or something. I can't really find the words to describe it adequately.
This is the sort of thing I mean when I wrote earlier that the experience of no separate self still seems to be unfolding, deepening.
With love.
Compelling!
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