The Sense of Aliveness Is Not In Control of What Happens

Carol:

help with "There is no self at all in reality. No me lives my life." When I contemplate the above a sense of disbelief arises, astonishment quickly followed by doubt. That is followed by a deep, visceral fear ~ terror, really. My heart actually starts pounding and I can feel anxiety wash over me. The fear is centered in my core ~ my chest and abdomen. My stomach churns & my heart beats rapidly. It feels like I've been living a lie my whole life and am about to be found out ~ discovered to be a liar. I want to run away but there's nowhere to run to to get away from this. Now sadness wells up, tears at the thought I am not real. I have great fondness for this character named Carol and will miss her! <Sigh>. What to do, what to do?

x

Carol:
Nov 5
Good Morning Ilona!


Thank you SO MUCH for your website and all you are doing to help people to see the Truth. It's amazing! I am so happy and grateful for your and Elena's efforts.

I have been a seeker since I was a teenager - which is a long time, since I'm now 51 years young!

The search has been long and winding and taken on many forms.

10 years or so ago I discovered non duality and that is where the search has remained. I've read countless books, attended some satsangs and retreats, meditated some, and gotten absolutely no where with it all. Perhaps a tiny taste here and there, but nothing substantial or lasting. Lately the impulse to read about nonduality has waned. I'm so sick of all the books that describe it. I guess I was hoping that simply by reading I would get it!

A week ago a dear friend of mine, also a seeker and someone who I consider somewhat "ahead" of me on the path, sent me a link to your website, and told me her search was finally over. Wow! So I perused your website, bought the Kindle version of the book and read it, visited the forum, and have been investigating the reality of this "me" all week, as I go about my day. It's too easy for my mind to lead me in circles, or distract me with other concerns, so I feel I need some help. I need to dialogue with someone who will keep me on track and catch any BS the mind throws out.

I prefer to do this via email, and not publicly on the Forum. Would you be willing to help me?

Thank you!

Gratefully yours,

Carol

Ilona:
Nov 6

Hi Carol,

thank you for email

yes, i can help you with the inquiry. email is fine for me.
there is a disclaimer on the www.liberationunleashed.com home page, i need you to read it and see if you agree with all that. :)
this helps to cut through the most common expectations.

on the scale from 1 to 10, how ready are you, 1 being mildly curious, 10 burning for truth no matter what.

looking forward to your answer.
kind regards,


Carol:
Nov 7

Good Morning Ilona,

Thanks so much for your reply & offer of help! I was so excited (and a little scared) when I saw your reply in my inbox. :D

Yes, I've read the disclaimer and just re-read so it's fresh in my mind. No reason for me not to continue based on anything in it.

How ready am I to continue? I want to shout TEN, but fear makes it 10 - 2 = 8.

Looking forward to your reply!

Gratefully yours,

Ilona:
Nov 7

thanks for answer :)
ok, let's start.

first and most important part is to look at expectation.
make a full and sincere list of all that you think this awakening is about, what it will give you, what will be the benefits and what you want from it. also, what you do not want too.

it's good idea to pull out all expectation and examine them closely as they are in the way of clear seeing.


looking forward to your answer.
much love

Carol:
Nov 8
Thanks for the questions!

I guess the biggest thing I think awakening will give me is an end to suffering - mental & emotional anguish, reactivity. I imagine it will give me equanimity, nothing will upset me or bother me, I will have peace of mind. Complete acceptance of everything that happens, moment by moment, kind of like being able to sincerely say no matter what, "It's all good".

And I guess, by the above happening, I imagine life would then be amazing! Not that anything would be different but my view of it would be different. And that would make it amazing.

I'm not looking for special powers, riches, or to anything like that. Just peace of mind & contentment, which sounds kind of blissful to me. :D

And I imagine people will sense a difference about it.

That's about it.

Thanks SO MUCH for dialoguing with me!

Looking forward to your reply.

love & light to you.

Ilona:
Nov 8

Thanks for the questions!

I guess the biggest thing I think awakening will give me is an end to suffering - mental & emotional anguish, reactivity. I imagine it will give me equanimity, nothing will upset me or bother me, I will have peace of mind.

Nice thought, but it's only a magical thinking. End of suffering is not at the beginning, as seeing no self is not the end.. It may take some long time till complete ok-iness. And no state is permanent. Being ok with whatever arises is what reduces reactivity until it drops. Most likely, this will not happen with the fist step to liberation, which is seeing that there is no separation.


Complete acceptance of everything that happens, moment by moment, kind of like being able to sincerely say no matter what, "It's all good". 

All is ok, more likely. Good and bad is still judgement, ok is acceptance.


And I guess, by the above happening, I imagine life would then be amazing! Not that anything would be different but my view of it would be different. And that would make it amazing. 

Nothing would be different from now, all same, only the view. Yes.

I'm not looking for special powers, riches, or to anything like that. Just peace of mind & contentment, which sounds kind of blissful to me. :D

And I imagine people will sense a difference about it.


You are on right track.

That's about it. 

Cool. Now let's take the next step. Let this thought in, play with it, consider it seriously, watch what happens in the mind and in the body as you take it to be true.

There is no separate self at all, no I, no me in reality. There is no controller, no watcher, no manager, life happens by itself. The I is just an idea, there is nothing behind it.

Take a look, if it's true.


Write what comes up.
Much love.


Carol:
Nov 10

Hi Ilona,

Sorry for the delay in my reply. Had a bout of Meniere's disease (an inner ear disorder with symptoms of dizziness, nausea, vomiting, & fatigue) which put me out of commission for a day.

You said: Let this thought in, play with it, consider it seriously, watch what happens in the mind and in the body as you take it to be true.

There is no separate self at all, no I, no me in reality. There is no controller, no watcher, no manager, life happens by itself. The I is just an idea, there is nothing behind it. 

When I let the thought in that there is no "me" as a separate self at first I feel a sense of surprise & disbelief, like all this time I've been living a lie? Well I guess that's not right, 'cause there's no me to have lived a lie all this time, it's just been a case of believing something that's not true.

The latest brain research which shows that decisions to act are made 6-8 seconds before the conscious mind is aware of it helps make this more real.

Along with the surprise and disbelief is a sense of running out of steam, of a balloon (me) popping & deflating. All that anguish in my twenties about my messed up childhood and how it affected me, all the years of running self-improvement programs...all for naught. If I had know this then there would have been loads more time for other things!

Then the thought occurs to me: how do I know this is true? I guess the answer would be to look.

When I look through my body I can't find a me, except in my brain. That's where I seem to be, or at least that's where the sense of self, all the preferences and conditioning that make up the "me", seems to reside. And in the portion of the brain where language, thought & speech arise, specifically. Perhaps this set of preferences and conditioning isn't me, but then who am I? And if there is no "I" then what is this set of preferences and conditioning?

When I let thought in that there is no "me" and life is just happening, running on it's own, I have no control, then anxiety arises in the body and the heart beats faster. After awhile that passes and there is a sense of relaxing, of "whatever will be will be".

That's all I've got for now. Very much looking forward to your reply.

Love & hugs,


Ilona:
Nov 11


Thank you for answer carol.


You say

"When I look through my body I can't find a me, except in my brain. That's where I seem to be, or at least that's where the sense of self, all the preferences and conditioning that make up the "me", seems to reside. And in the portion of the brain where language, thought & speech arise, specifically. Perhaps this set of preferences and conditioning isn't me, but then who am I? And if there is no "I" then what is this set of preferences and conditioning? "

How do you experience the brain? Is it not just a thought that you feel the brain and the language center?


The sense of aliveness, being, is it in the brain? Can you locate it? Is there a line between here and there? Is this sense in control of what happens?
Is sense of hearing in control of what sounds are heard?

Find that sense of aliveness and observe it. Is it I? Or I is a label that is put on this sense and assumed to be the manager if the body?


Write what you see.


Much love.

Carol:
Nov 12

Hi Ilona,

Thanks for the questions.

Wow. You asked, "How do you experience the brain?" When I looked at that I realized I don't! It is just a thought I took to be real. That realization was like the flash of a light bulb going off. Wow.

The sense of aliveness seems to be centred in the heart and is most obvious in the beating of the heart and the pulsing of blood in veins. And yet...calling that the sense of aliveness doesn't seem quite right. Because something is aware of that. It doesn't seem right to call that awareness "I" and I can't find exactly where the awareness is - it seems to be everywhere an nowhere at the same time.

The sense of aliveness isn't in control of what happens, of what sounds are heard, of what thoughts appear.

Am feeling a little lost right now. What's next?

Thank you so much for the gift of these questions.

Love back...



Ilona:
Nov 13

Nice, yes, the brain is not experienced directly.

Ok, next step we look at mind as labelling machine. Notice how mind labels everything. Just look slowly around the room and see how words pop in the mind and start telling stories.

Are you in control of this process or it is going on automatic?

Read this post. http://markedeternal.blogspot.co.uk/2012/01/trick-of-language.html?m=1


What do you learn when investigate language and labelling?

Sending love.


Carol:
Nov 14

Hi Ilona,

Yes, as I look around the room the name/label for each thing automatically arises, sometimes with a story attached, i.e., plant - oh, plants need watered, they should have been watered 2 days ago...etc. I don't control the labeling/thoughts, they just arise unbidden.

Thank you for the blog post on thoughts & thinking. When I look, I see that thoughts arise effortlessly, "I" don't think them, and when I look for the "I" I can't find it...and yet, and yet, this doesn't seem to be sinking in. I don't know what else to say right now. I will keep looking at thoughts/labelling and see await your reply.

Much love and thanks.


Carol:
Nov 16

Hi Ilona,

I've continued to look at thoughts and labelling these past few days. I notice that I'm more detached from thoughts, I notice them as they arise without getting lost in them and then notice they vanish like bubbles bursting...Sometimes I thank them and then they go. I read that suggestion in one of your blog posts and have been trying it as I remember to.

so there is more ease and flow, in a subtle way. i keep looking for me and it is becoming more and more clear that i am not (if that makes sense) and what I think of as me is just a conglomeration of thoughts all stuck together. and since thoughts just arise, shine, and vanish it is clear that to maintain this identity I've thought of as me all these years requires a lot of effort, without the effort to maintain continuity the thoughts that comprise me would vanish too quickly to maintain any hold or grip. it's hard to talk about this. am i making any sense?

just wanted to check in, since i haven't heard from you.


Carol:
Nov 17


Ilona,

I think our email thread has gotten lost or buried in your inbox.

I am feeling stuck. Although I cannot find an "I" when I look, conditioned reactions still arise with alarming rapidity and frequency, resistance abounds, and nothing changes.

Feeling frustrated. Or noticing frustration arising.

<sigh>

I want to finish this process.


Ilona:
Nov 17

Hi carol.

Sorry did not answer earlier. Life got me busy and I could not answer everyone..

Ok, so you say that reactions are still coming. Should they not be coming and is there anyone to own them? What is behind them reactions? Are you the one that is in control of what sensations happen?

If you take an itch and a scratch, are you doing the scratching or hand naturally extends and scratch happens. Notice next time.

Are the reactions different?
If you have a sore spot on your body and somebody bumps into it or presses it hard, what is the reaction?

If you have a sore spot in the mind and somebody presses on it, should the reaction not appear as it does?

See, the goal is not to not react. The goal is to see what is behind the reaction as it happening.

If you look right now at the sensations in the body, is there a senser behind them? What are the sensations happening to? Or they are appearing simply as these sensations?

Write what is noticed.

Much love.

Carol:
Nov 18

so glad to hear from you! i understand how busy life can be.

i am not in control of any sensations as they happen. funny, i had a few itches since reading your email and yes, the hand just naturally reaches out to scratch, there is really no sensation of an i doing the scratching.

if i have a sore spot on the body and somebody bumps it, the reaction is generally to flinch and say, "ow".

if i have a sore spot in the mind and somebody "presses" on it, the reaction is to defend. see, this is where i get tripped up. i'm talking about defensive reactions that happen automatically and if i see clearly that there is no "i" then what is there to defend and why the reaction? unless this is something that is on automatic and it will lose it's charge over time.  so i should just notice the reaction next time one occurs and then look & see what is behind it? i will do that and report back.

looking right now at the sensations in the body they are just appearing, there is no senser, just the sensations of fingers on keyboard, bottom and backs of legs on chair, sounds of video playing in background.

thank you so much for what you are doing.

love & light,

Carol:
Nov 20

Hi Ilona,

Just want to give you an update.

I notice when I bump into something and it hurts, first there is the physical sensation of the body part hitting whatever, say the table leg, and almost immediately a labelling occurs, "that hurts", etc. Without the labelling  it's just sensation. This is the first time I've been able to separate the two as they happen. Interesting...

Also, when my partner said something that generally triggers a defensive reaction in me, I answered neutrally, without the reaction. Not sure if that will continue.

I really feel I can see clearly there is no I - it is just an ephemeral thought. Seeing this, astonishment arises, can it really be this simple? All these years, I've believed in "me", just like I believed in Santa Claus as a kid? LOL, this is incredible, too funny, a cosmic joke indeed!

Am I missing anything, Ilona?

How can I be sure?

Sending love,




Ilona:
Nov 20

haha, yes, it is that simple, just like a belief in Santa clause. can you say that the shift has happened and now it is seen that separate self is an illusion? if so, are you ready for the final questions? if now, is there any doubt?

much love.


Carol:
Nov 21

Hi Ilona,

If I had answered you earlier in the day I would've said yes, I think the shift has happened.

But I had some upsetting family news concerning my brother & elderly mother that made me feel very sad & stressed just a little while ago and now I'm not so sure. I am trying to untangle the threads of the physical sensations in the body and the labelling/story I am attaching to them as I write. He told me a story and in my mind I reacted to his story which added a twist to the story line, and it's all a story, isn't it? I'm feeling confused at the moment. When I look again I see there isn't a "me" but it seems the "me" is resurrected when a reaction happens.

If I truly see this clearly would any reaction take me over so completely? Or perhaps it's like what you said in one of the dialogues on your website, sometimes you get caught up in the movie, temporarily forgetting it's a movie, even after the separate self is clearly seen through. Could that be it?

Sending love,

Carol


Ilona:
Nov 21

Are the reactions happening because there is a me? Or it is me that is reacting? What would you say this me is? Look closer.
Do you expect that once it is seen once, there would be no more reactions and intense feelings ever? Seeing is not what has happened, it's what is here always, now. Shift happens, experiences come and go, but there is something constant underneath the impermanence, that can be noticed over and over again.

If I truly see this clearly would any reaction take me over so completely?
Of course. But when you check, it passes quickly.

Or perhaps it's like what you said in one of the dialogues on your website, sometimes you get caught up in the movie, temporarily forgetting it's a movie, even after the separate self is clearly seen through. Could that be it?

Yes.

How is it going?

Love.


Carol:
Nov 21

Hi Ilona,

I have been looking at this throughout the day. Upon looking closely at the conversation that upset me last night I see that the reactions just arose, they are a tightly woven complex of sensations + many thoughts which make a story. And there is still no me. In fact, shortly after the reaction occurred last night, upon looking, it was clear there was no me. There  was disappointment at the strong reaction and wondering why it occurred and was so strong, which was just more sensations + thoughts.

All of the reactions began to fade fairly quickly and were completely gone by morning, after some rest.

This morning I read a post on your blog, a dialogue between you and Jon, which was very helpful. Jon reported realizing that if there was no "I" for him, there was also no "I" in anyone else and so when an incident like someone cutting him off in traffic occurred it was clear it was not personal, without the "I's" there was just what happened. I hadn't thought of that before and it helps when examining the situation which triggered the reaction last night and other similar reactions.

This shift is very subtle and it is just subconscious expectations of what it will be like that add another layer to whatever reaction arises. I realize I have no idea what it is like and will just have to see from moment to moment.

Feeling somewhat surprised that this is all there is to it. All the years of seeking & reading about enlightenment built this shift up to be something so difficult and complex and in reality it is so simple, yet profound! I can see that there will be a period of integration and am curious to see what that will be like.

I am very grateful for your questions and guidance.

Sending love,

Ilona:
Nov 22

Yes, carol, the simplicity is that blows the mind. How can it not be simple?
Reactions happen and if not owned, they pass quickly. In each reaction there is a gift- a reminder to look, to notice the beliefs that are behind the reaction and it's an opening for them to drop. All repressed and unwanted feelings have to come up to be felt too, this way they leave the system. And saying yes to whatever comes up is what works best.

How does it feel to see this?
How does it feel to notice that me is an illusion?


Much love.


Carol:
Nov 23

Hi Ilona,

Sorry I didn't get back to you sooner. Yesterday was a holiday here and was spent out of town with family.

Yes, it's now clear that reactions will keep occurring until they are fully felt and seen and can then fade away. I guess this happens in different amounts for different people.

It feel very freeing to see this and know that reactions will eventually pass. They will keep arising until they don't.

It feels like a big relief to see that the me is an illusion. Surprise, amazement and laughter! The big a-ha and then hahaha!!! :D

Wow, such huge gratitude to you for chatting with me about this and for all you do with Liberation Unleashed and on your blog.

BIG hug and lots of love to you! What's next?

Ilona:
Nov 23

Oh great! I'm delighted for you. Seeing once will never be unseen.
What's next?
I have a few final questions left for you. Let me know if you are ready to answer. If not, lets address whatever comes up.

Much love to you carol !


Carol:
Nov 23

Ready to answer!


Ilona:
Nov 24

Sweet! Here they are :)

1) Is there a 'me', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) in the experience, is there an experiencer? Is it body that experiences or body is the experienced?

3) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works.

4) How does it feel to see this?

5)How would you describe it to somebody who has never heard about this illusion but is curious about it.

6) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look? Can you describe the moment when seeing happened?


Please answer in full, when ready.

Much love.


Carol:
Nov 24

Hi Ilona,

Thank you for the questions! Let me sit with them for a bit and then I will answer. Most likely by end of weekend.

Sending love,


Nov 25

Hi Ilona,

Lots of resistance arising at thought of answering the questions.

Also doubt that seeing has really happened.

And yet, when looking for "I", it's never found!

No matter how many times looking happens. :D

The doubt arises because there isn't a tremendous difference in life after seeing. Reactions arise regularly as scheduled - hahaha! - although they are seen through quickly and then fade much faster than before.

1) And yet, there is certainty that there is no me now, before, or ever.

2) There is some confusion about the 2nd question. There is no experiencer and yet, the body seems to experience...

3) The illusion of the separate self arises with learning to speak & label things, generally around 18 - 24 mos. Parents, siblings, other family members, literally everyone tells you your name and who you are, until you can point to the image in the mirror and label it me and the name given to it. From there it snowballs...and life becomes all about "me"!

4) When it was first seen it there was astonishment at the obviousness & simplicity of it. That feeling faded rather quickly and it was noticed that life goes on as before. And this is where I get a bit stuck, to be honest. Some people describe the quieting of thoughts and a flow to life arising and so far, that is not what is experienced here. The differences here are so subtle, that doubt arises and disappointment. But then they fade, just as reactions still arise but fade more quickly.

5) I would tell them there is no "me", it's a case of mistaken identity that arose with language, a kind of mass hypnosis, and it seems all the more valid because almost everybody suffers from this case of mistaken identity so that it seems "normal" and the "human condition". I would invite them to look and see for themselves. I would ask them to find the "me" and show me where it is. I also would tell them about the recent discoveries in brain research that decisions are made about 6 seconds before the conscious mind is aware of it.

6) There was no precise moment that I can identity when it became clear. It happened so gradually over the course of our dialogue. Which also feeds the doubt!

Sending this with much love and thanks!

Ilona:
Nov 25

Thank you very much for your answers.
Yes, the line is crossed. There is some settling in to do.. Which, of course also just happens as it happens, there is no one to have a say about it.

Comparing experiences that other had with how it is for you is what creates expectations. And you can recognise them as strong shoulds or shouldn'ts.

If you look at how the awakening process is unfolding, what you think that should be different?

Make a list.

And behind every expectation there is some kind of belief. Simply notice how shoulds and shouldn'ts arise through the day, and see if the opposite is true.

First step in this journey after is learning to trust that all that shows up, is exactly as it should be. Because it just is.

Check if there is an expectation, that once it's seen, all should go nice and smooth, no more negative emotions and bliss, peace 24/7. As if seeing what is would change reality.

The mind will keep checking and looking for a while. Until its clear in every situation. So yes, reactions are still going to happen and pass quickly, as there is nothing there for them to stick to. Sometimes getting sucked into the story will happen and that's ok too, as there is no one that identification is happening to. Even if it seems this way, you can always check and see what is behind it.

Crossing the line is the first step to clarity.


I'm so delighted for you.
Now lets clear those doubts. Explore all expectations that are not being met.


Sending love.


Carol:
Nov 26

Yes, there are some expectations here. An expectation that there will be a noticeable difference in how I feel, that I will feel lighter, freer, more relaxed, joyous, laughing a lot!

So I looked at these expectations and what I noticed is that each one of them is a thought. Nothing more and nothing less and they actually come & go and are not true.

So in seeing that I feel a little shaky, unmoored, like now what? The seeking is over and it took up so much time and was a central theme for the past 10 years especially. And those are just thoughts as well, and fade as quickly as they come.

So all these feelings and expectations are passing like clouds here. :D

The doubts are lifting and a sense of wonder arises, like wow, can it be true?! The non-existent gate has really been passed through? Or, better yet, the gate has vanished and it is seen that the I that would pass through and the gate are not real & never were!!! LOL!!! OK, then...<BIG grin>.

Oh, Ilona, I can't thank you enough for patiently guiding me through this process.

Sending hugs and so much love.


Carol:
Nov 28

Since I haven't heard from you thought I would send another update. Today was interesting - noticing how every feeling that arises is coupled with a thought and fades fairly quickly - as soon as it's seen that it's just a thought is when it begins to fade.

Felt a bit lighter and more carefree than usual today. Not feeling too concerned if that will last - just a curiousness to see what tomorrow brings. :D

Would love any comments when you have time.

Sending MORE hugs and love!


Ilona:
Nov 29

Dear carol,

Thank you for emails and sorry did not answer earlier. Sounds that the line has been crossed! Woo hooo! :)

So all clear? Is there any doubt at all?


Carol:
Nov 29


All is clear here. No lasting doubt. Yesterday was a quiet day, working from home, no interactions with anyone which triggered conditioning...Still noticing that all doubts & resistance to what is are thoughts - nothing more or less - and once that is noticed, the doubt, resistance, thoughts drift away.

Realizing I don't know how this will unfold from here - it's always different - and that's what makes it fun & interesting!

So, what's next? Would like to be able to share with others as things arise, while I stabilize, and someday, guide others who want to see.

Lots of appreciation here for your time & questions!

Ilona:
Nov 29 (1 day ago)


:) sweet!

Yeah, it's always fresh and that makes it fun exploration.

Can I post our conversation on my blog? You never know, it may help someone else to see.. I could use any name you like. Then my other friends/ guides could read it and ask questions, if they have any and then I can invite you to support and sharing groups. There are lots of new friends to share this with :)

Big hug.


Carol:
Nov 29

Oh yes, you absolutely can post this on your blog and you can use my name. I hope it is helpful to others - I know many of the posts were helpful to me during this process. It's all I've been reading since we began!

I look forward to joining the support and sharing groups.

Big hug back!