The iDentity Entity Isn't a Me

I'm very happy to present this conversation. It is a longer one and there are twists and turns, with poetry and expectations. In the end all gets clear. Really enjoyed communicating with Goots. Oh well, read it and see for yourself.  

Goots:
Nov 8


Hi Ilona
Okay. Let's get this underway. Thank you for facilitating "me" this way.


Ilona:
Nov 8


Hi Goots, thanks for email. And it's my pleasure.
To start, please, introduce yourself, tell your story of seeking and tell what is it you are looking for.
:)


Also, please read this disclaimer, it let's you know what this is not about, just so it's clear.
In other words, blue pill or red pill moment, hehe. How ready are you? From 1-10, 1 being mildly curious to burning for truth..


Disclaimer

The method of inquiry used on this site may actually work, unlike many spiritual practices. It will likely change how you regard your self, your relationships, and your world. Neither you nor we can predict how this will turn out for you. If you are already mentally or emotionally fragile, it may exacerbate a mental condition or disorder. If you are currently relying on a prescription or self-prescribed substance to regulate your mood or your sanity, we strongly suggest you not enter into this process. Our guides are not therapists and cannot take responsibility for your mental health, before or after. If your relationships are unsatisfactory, they may improve, or they may not. If you have strong religious or spiritual beliefs, direct experience may support them, or (in our experience) not. You are at all times responsible for your honesty, integrity and focus. A leap into the unknown is just that. We will do everything we can to support it, insofar as we are volunteers working online, with attendant limitations.

We maintain several Facebook groups that allow people who have been through a forum process to discuss and work through common issues. These are not a substitute for any mental or physical help that you may need after Gate. None of the group participants is responsible for your well-being, or can be held liable for any advice. Adopt any more thoughts, concepts, or beliefs at your own risk.

Enter into this process if you are ready and willing to question all your beliefs and assumptions about awakening, if you are ready to face your fears, and if you prefer truth to comfortable lies. Do not enter if your goal is to fix the parts of your life that you think are broken, to embark on a self-improvement project, or to gain some kind of spiritual certification. Spiritual tourists will be taken to the the airlock and launched into deep space.

Goots:
Nov 9

9 outa 10. No airlock.

I have always been a seeker, I think. I went through book after book after book after book. In 1997 I started studying under Robert Fritz after reading his Path of Least Resistance. In 2007 I came across Byron Katie and did The Work every day for 2 years. I did her 9 day School of the Work, twice, and her 28 day Turnaround House, all in 2008. I have since become much less angry, but I haven't seen through "me". I have done a 10=day silent mediation retreat with Adyashanti, and I've done personal sessions with Bentinho Massaro and Scott Kiloby. Last August, September I found the Ruthless Truth site and did sessions with Kevin and two other chaps. In the end some determined I'd seen through the 'me' but I didn't understand why, and lost interest for a time. I had seen how there was no me to see there was no me, but that was it.

I am impatient. I don't want to climb to the top of a Tibetan mountain and stare at my navel for the next 35 years. I don't want to get so damned depressed that I have to CRACK out of this delusion like Eckhart Tolle and Byron Katie. I don't want to take 10-15 years like Adyashanti. Nor 2-4 years like Bentinho or the folks from Great Freedom . org - resting in awareness until something happens. The Ruthless Truth - style of inquiry seems like it's the best chance for a quick resolution to my search for the truth / enlightenment. I don't want to live the rest of my life in delusion, even if 99.9999% of the planet is doing so.

My biggest barrier, I think, is an inability to understand the edict to LOOK. Look at what? Look how? Look for what? I need guidance. I can't do this alone.
I have a history of needing to look good, show off, avoid being stupid. I pride myself on my honesty and integrity, but I can be a slippery eel! I have had conversations with my spouse that after this "I" might just want to feed the squirrels. Since I want to proceed even though I'll likely get the boot for squirrel feeding, I figure I rate
9 outa 10.

Goots

PS - I have written two books. My first book is based on my experiences doing The Work, and I am very, very good at identifying hidden beliefs that prevent people from doing what they want BUT I believe I'd be MUCH more effective doing so, in service to others, if I was clear myself.

PPS - forgive the excessive use of personal pronouns. :)

Goots:
Nov 9
Another thought...

I tend to have an apparent and convincing intellectual understanding of "no me", but it is clearly not an experiential understanding. I've also fallen into the trap of trying to prove/confirm there is "no me" rather than investigating whether or not it is true.


Ilona:
Nov 9

Hi Goots,
Thank you for email.
First, no need to apologise for using language as it's intended.  I use word I all the time without any sense of guilt. It's nothing wrong with language.
:)

I can definitely help you to focus and get it all clear.  But the work is yours and the process is yours. So I need you to write every day to me. Writing gets the mind focused and I will keep giving you questions that need to be looked at and resolved.  I may not answer everyday, as I'm working with lots of people. But I'm here, and will read all you write.

Ok. There are 2 factors that prevent you from seeing- fear and expectations.
It is easy to deal with fear. Expectations is the tricky one. As when you are looking and expecting to see what you think you should be seeing- that blocks the seeing of what is. And all we are looking at is what is so obvious that it's difficult to miss.

A very good companion for this inquiry is gateless gatecrashers book. You may download it for free or buy it in any form you like from www.gatelessgatecrashers.com

The first step is to examine the expectations. So make a long list if all that you expect this seeing will do for you, what you think that awakening is and what you want it to be. Also what you don't want it to be.  Take your time and bring it all up.

Looking forward to your answer.

Much love.


Ilona:
Nov 9

Intellectual understanding is part of seeing the whole picture and if you have it- great. We get to experiential seeing next.  

Goots:
Nov 9

Hi Ilona;

Here is my 'daily missive' to you...
I had actually downloaded the gatelessgatecrashers book the day before yesterday and have read the first few chapters. I will continue reading further today.


1. EVERYTHING I EXPECT THIS SEEING WILL DO FOR ME:

-make me clearer
-vastly reduce or eliminate my funks (periods of prolonged negative emotional states)
-allow me to help other people more effectively
-make me more fearless
-make me non self-conscious (bolder)
-connect with the universe in a deeper way
-

(wow, I just noticed "do for ME". How can this do anything for "ME"?)

continuing...

-make me a more effective writer.
-make me a more effective communicator
-make me a more effective public speaker
-make me less timid
-I will see the truth or the truth will be seen
-make me more credible
-vastly reduce or eliminate anxiety
-vastly reduce or eliminate tendencies toward confrontation
-put me in alignment with 'now' / 'this moment'
-give me the opportunity to speak on par with other awakened people
-make my unique contribution to the world
-possibly free me up, and provide classic content for some memorable standup comedy routines
-living from the standpoint of having NOTHING TO LOSE
-help me see my own shit more easily
-help me clean up my own shit quicker
-I will have an understanding of things I couldn't previously grasp
-I will be able to see through other peoples' shit, and my own, much quicker.



2. WHAT DO I THINK AWAKENING IS:

I think awakening is the elimination of the belief that there is a separate 'me'. I think it puts the human adult back into the state they were in when the person was a baby, inasmuch as there was no self concept, and no cognitive separation between perception and reality. I believe this illusion of separation will dissolve. I don't think it is 'easy'. I think there's a key to seeing this misperception and that great masters of the past have, for some reason, had great difficult passing along the keys to the gateless gate. I think there are two components to awakening, and sometimes they are experienced separately. One can wake up, first, to the truth that everything is one, without recognizing there is no 'me'. So far, I have done neither.
I think somehow, in some niggly, tricky way, the illusion of the separate 'me' can be seen through. I think it has to do with some kind of recognition. I think it is much easier to see the presence of something than the absence of the subject of a strongly held concept.
I think UNenlightenment is a living 'out of phase' with the present moment. It is living a slight moment late...whereby reality is seen as the after-perception of reality rather than reality itself. Living from the standpoint of the ME is living in a time delay. I think awakening is the elimination of that time delay, and the elimination of the NEED for that time delay. I believe awakening involves dispensing with the very need for a separate self - that needs protection from the world. I think awakening involves direct perception, period. Nothing to lose because there's no one to lose it. I believe there is nobody to recognize any of this...but I have yet to experience this.



3. WHAT I WANT THIS AWAKENING TO BE FOR ME:

-I want awakening to enhance my existing life
-I want peace
-I want harmony
-I want humour and laughter
-I want kindness
-I want a life filled with the force of the creative process
-I want to slice through my own bullshit
-I want to make even more powerful contributions to the lives of others
-I want to stay in my own business
-I want to live and let live
-I want to be true to myself and find a profession / calling that is filled with purpose
-I want to keep, maintain, and perfect my creative process
-I want to make a library of cool, creative videos
-I want to write a string of books
-I want to show other people the path to peace
-I want to travel
-I want to be effective in practical matters
-I want awakening to make me a better soccer player! (Better vision on the field for passing.)
-I want awakening to enhance my relationships.



4. WHAT I DON"T WANT THIS AWAKENING TO BE FOR ME:

-I don't want to lose those things / people who are currently precious to me
-I don't want to be taken out at the knees and needing 5-10 years to find my way back in the world/society
-I don't want to replace one dream state with another DREAMY state.
-I don't want to end up in some vast, dark fucking hole.
-I don't want to be an enlightened asshole
-I don't want awakening to be a huge struggle that takes me out
-I don't want awakening to be a stress on my spouse
-I don't want awakening to imperil our personal finances (make me useless in our business)
-I don't want awakening to prevent me from properly contributing to the financial needs of our household
-I don't want to be a weeping mess
-I don't want to be on an emotional rollercoaster
-I don't want to be thrown into the loony bin
-I don't want to be seen as a flake


Ilona:
Nov 10

Hi Goots, thank you for your sincere and honest answer. There are a lot of wants and don't wants in your system. :)
One thing for sure, you get BS detectors and can see your own shit. Hehe.

2. WHAT DO I THINK AWAKENING IS:

"I think awakening is the elimination of the belief that there is a separate 'me'. I think it puts the human adult back into the state they were in when the person was a baby, inasmuch as there was no self concept, and no cognitive separation between perception and reality. I believe this illusion of separation will dissolve. I don't think it is 'easy'."

It is easy. It's only that this has never been questioned, that it seems complicated. One look and what is seen can never be unseen. It's a pattern recognition. Drop of belief.


"I think there's a key to seeing this misperception and that great masters of the past have, for some reason, had great difficult passing along the keys to the gateless gate. I think there are two components to awakening, and sometimes they are experienced separately. One can wake up, first, to the truth that everything is one, without recognizing there is no 'me'. So far, I have done neither. 
I think somehow, in some niggly, tricky way, the illusion of the separate 'me' can be seen through. I think it has to do with some kind of recognition. I think it is much easier to see the presence of something than the absence of the subject of a strongly held concept." 

Ok this is where we look at what is real and what is imaginary. How do you know that unicorn is not real? Is it tricky to see that unicorn does not exist in reality? Do you need to see no-unicorn first?




"I think UNenlightenment is a living 'out of phase' with the present moment. It is living a slight moment late...whereby reality is seen as the after-perception of reality rather than reality itself. Living from the standpoint of the ME is living in a time delay. I think awakening is the elimination of that time delay, and the elimination of the NEED for that time delay. I believe awakening involves dispensing with the very need for a separate self - that needs protection from the world. I think awakening involves direct perception, period. Nothing to lose because there's no one to lose it. I believe there is nobody to recognize any of this...but I have yet to experience this."

Yes, direct experience, perception is about living in the now, seeing life as it is, not what it should or shouldn't be according to fantasies.

3. WHAT I WANT THIS AWAKENING TO BE FOR ME:

-I want awakening to enhance my existing life
.............

None of the wants have anything to do with seeing that there is no self.
Did you believe in magical Santa or tooth fairy when you were a kid?
If so, did life change when it was recognised to be a lie?

See, life goes on with or without belief in separation. Things happen. States are not permanent. Love and peace forever is a magical story. And seeing through illusion DOES NOT change the character. The character does not get super powers and does not become something that he is not now. It's all very ordinary.


4. WHAT I DON"T WANT THIS AWAKENING TO BE FOR ME:

-I don't want to lose those things / people who are currently precious to me

What is true is not threatened. All that is untrue falls away.



-I don't want to be taken out at the knees and needing 5-10 years to find my way back in the world/society

No worries about this. Seeing will not catapult you out of the world.  :)

-I don't want to replace one dream state with another DREAMY state.

We are looking for reality here. As it is. Seeing that does not replace any state. It's not that you are gonna get no-self. Like Santa wasn't replaced by no- Santa.

-I don't want to end up in some vast, dark fucking hole.

Hm, this is fear speaking.

-I don't want to be an enlightened asshole

If you are already an asshole, you will stay that way, otherwise there is a little chance that it may happen out of nowhere.

-I don't want awakening to be a huge struggle that takes me out
For some people it takes a while to settle in as all belief structure starts falling off. It does not last for long though. 

-I don't want awakening to be a stress on my spouse

Don't worry about that. Unawakened you is more stress :)

-I don't want awakening to imperil our personal finances (make me useless in our business)

A lot of people leave their business.

-I don't want awakening to prevent me from properly contributing to the financial needs of our household

Well it's really not up to you and what you want. It's what happens. It can go either way. And this is where you have to trust life- all is happening as it should.

-I don't want to be a weeping mess
-I don't want to be on an emotional rollercoaster

Hm, sometimes this is necessary.

-I don't want to be thrown into the loony bin

This one is quite funny, don't you think?

-I don't want to be seen as a flake

Ok, what we have here is a lot of wants. It's good to have them all in the open. Because these wants are exactly in the way of seeing what is and accepting what you see as IT.

Nothin that you expect is what it's going to be like.
So we need to leave all theses expectations right here, we can come back to them later. But for now, we are going to take a fresh look.

Please write to me what comes up, when you leave your expectations.

Sending love.


Goots:
Nov 10


but not when nothing itself is aware  :)


Ilona:
Nov 10
?

Goots:
Nov 10
Hi Ilona;

I read through some more of the Liberation Unleashed book "Gateless Gatecrashers" earlier this evening and saw through "me". I was reading Joao's story - pages 68 and 69. Does life need a watcher at all? This question struck home. This took "me" to "nothing is aware". I wrote the following things down on a piece of paper: "There is watching without a watcher. Nothing's aware."
"There is nothing to do." "There is nothing to control." "Shit just happens." page 69. "Me? shrug. Assumption." "I'm an assumption...with a lotta gumption.

It was a very simple shift. I went to bed. My wife is sick so we got up together an hour later, had a short conversation about it and then I just put her back to bed again. Nothing and everything is different. There is a marked absence in mental chatter. There is a noticeable absence of push/need and yet when I see something to do I just do it. See garbage on kitchen counter put it in garbage can. That kind of thing.
When problem thoughts arise they last half a sentence and wither to nothing. When the thought comes to "rest in the moment" it's easy instead of a struggle, and there isn't any mental chatter to avoid or suppress.

I would be open to your follow-up questions, and welcome them(!) and yet there is an absence of doubt. This is different.

Many of the same thoughts and impulses are there. The impulse to properly punctuate my sentences and indent a new paragraph, for example.
Nothing wrong with that. Just Goots Gootsing.

Ilona:
Nov 11

That was wonderful to read :) how is it feeling today? Still clear? If so, can you say that shift has definitely happened and you are ready for final questions?

Much love!


Goots:
Nov 11

Hi Ilona

It doesn't feel the same as it did in the middle of the night Friday. Yesterday started similarly but events occurred during the day that seemed to bring back "usual" emotional upsets. For example, a client called giving me far less notice than I would normally require to set up some work and there was irritation. However, upon examination later I realized emotional upset doesn't predicate the existence of a "me". It's just emotional upset. Further, that the old mind structures (beliefs / habits etc) haven't changed, but there seems to be a little more space to see them and deal with them now.

Part of "me" expects to feel different all the time. When doubt did come up yesterday I noticed, again, that the existence of doubt doesn't predicate the existence of a "me".

On the plus side, I notice it seems much much easier to just stop and not have the incessant stream of thinking dominate attention. This is definitely different. Having said all this, it would be preferred that this be confirmed and ironclad. I also notice that there will be much work to do (on the mind structures etc) now and even an experience of 'non-abiding awakening' doesn't predicate the existence of a "me". There are still expectations running.

Goots:
Nov 11

Just wrote this over coffee...

There is no me. Is it true?
No watcher. Just this. Handwriting in this moment.
Noticing of shadows
Noticing of breath
Noticing the movement of attention
Attention shifts without a manager
Things largely taste and feel the same
There was an expectation that sensory input would be heightened somehow
Access to space
The volume of the commentator has been lowered
Almost like some of the commentating tracks have been turned off
Notice that eating without attention is not an indicator of a me.
Attention CAN be put there and it's amazing when it is.

Goots:
Nov 12

Hi Ilona;
This morning there doesn't seem to be the same level of presence, and that I have lapsed back into a focus on thinking/thoughts. And yet, when I take a moment to just rest, the mental chatter ceases easily, so I guess there's still a confusion taking place between what is expected and what is. Here's what happening as far as I can tell.

I am checking things out in terms of my experiencing of the moment. When I find things similar to how they were, doubt creeps in. When doubt creeps in, there's the question as to whether I've "gotten" there is no me. Of course, there is no me regardless of whether I get it or not and there is no I to get it. Then there's the thought that I shouldn't have to rest in the moment to experience the moment, it should just be happening automatically. Schism between expectation and reality again. There isn't an allowance for an acclimatization period. If an acclimatization period shouldn't be needed, then further doubt creeps in. These are all just thoughts coming and going. Further, there's the arising thought that I shouldn't have to "remind myself there is no me if I get it" (no I to get it). Again, just thoughts arising but...

Ilona:
Nov 13

How is it going, Goots? Can you say that shift has happened it is it still happening?
Do you expect that seeing no self is an end or you see this as opening, a new beginning?
Was there ever a self, I, me in charge of life?
Sending love.


Goots:
Nov 14

Hi Ilona

I started to respond to you this morning and then I thought I should really sit in this last question of yours.
so I'm sitting in it  :)
I would say that there is an ongoing shift / reorientation happening. The most noticeable thing is that when I rest in the present moment the volume of thinking is almost non existent. This is weird. It would normally take me an hour of meditating to catch a mere glimpse of this. Then again, I'm not a meditator.

I see no self as an opening, new beginning, rather than an end, although it is also 'an end'. An end to mental baggage. For example, I had the opportunity to attend a business course tomorrow and instead of foregoing the course because of an unwillingness to reschedule a number of preset appointments, I just made those calls and did it. Done. Easy. No fuss. Usually I would be in the other peoples' business, and their possible reactions.

I started to respond to the last question this morning...from a logic standpoint. Which, of course, is rubbish. There isn't no self ever because it's logical. And so I'm backing up to get a much deeper sense of an answer. What is wanted is an absolute, total knowing. No me now. No me in the past. No me ever.

If you have some suggestions on how to approach your question "Was there ever a self, I, me in charge of life?" they would be welcome.

Ilona:
Nov 14

Morning Goots,

From your answer I see that something definitely shifted :) great. The absence of usual reactions is a good indicator that something is different, ability to respond and act without mental noise is another.

Ok, if you remember an event from the childhood, bring that memory closer- was there a self there? is there I in that picture? The choices that been made, could they have been different? Was there an entity inside that little boy's skin?

Write down what you notice.

Then imagine yourself in 1 year from now, is there a self there? How does this image get created? Is it created by the I or mind creates it effortlessly and observes it by itself? Is this image reality?

Write all you notice.
Then look at others. Friends, family, strangers. Is there a me in them? Are there separate entities driving those bodies and minds?

What do you find?

Now look at Goots. Is he here? What is here?
Sending love.

Goots:
Nov 14
awesome!


Goots:
Nov 16

Hi Ilona

Sorry for the delay in responding to you. Still counts as a daily, though, 'cause I responded yesterday morning, and now I'm responding tonight. Important to keep those commitments!  :)

SO...

Last night I had a incident with my heart on the soccer field. I was running full out and suddenly my heart started racing like a machine gun. I had to stop. I had chest pain. I walked slowly to the sidelines, was helped by team mates  after a time everything calmed down but one of my friends called an ambulance anyway. We've had team mates with heart troubles before AND on the field of play so there's a history and a prudent caution there. I felt a little embarrassed being wheeled off the field on a stretcher but it was only a twang, and for the most part the entire evening of tests and EKG's and so forth occurred with very little emotion and no fear. Weird looking back on it. No fear at all.

For the record, vitals were okay, blood pressure fine, etc etc and I have a few tests to go through in the next week or so just to be sure there are no issues.

This has interrupted my planned inquiry using your proposed questions, although I have seen a childhood incident where "I" first thought (or one of the first that) "I" was "not okay". I was about 7 years old, riding my bicycle with a bunch of neighbourhood kids, and I was last in the group. As we went faster and faster, standing on the pedals, I tried to get out of last place but couldn't do it. "I was last / not okay / weak".

So, was there a self there?

There was a boy with a self image. There was a situation which led to a judgment. Who was judging "me"? Was there an "I" judging a "me"? Bike riding boy labels self image negatively. There was a bike riding boy. There were thoughts about the situation, judgements and labeling. There was a self image. There was not me labeling a thought of "myself", but a labeling of a thought of a self image.
"I" thought "I" was last, but was "I"? Was there a self there?
Gonna sleep on this.


Goots:
Nov 17

Hi Ilona

My spouse thought it was funny that I was griping about not having enough time to work on this stuff today and yesterday, because I said I didn't have enough "me time" ... to work on "no me". hardy har har.

Today during a conversation I saw that it's not possible for a non-existent self to have a self concept. There can be a self concept, but to self is there to have/own it. Felt like another shift. However, I haven't fully explored the past / future questions you presented the last
time.

Seem caught up in the thinking realm again.

That was yesterday, and this morning I'm just plain GRUMPY! Swirling thoughts of complaint about a jarring tackle on the soccer field the other day that may have caused the heart thing later in the game. Some issues to deal with in terms of the management of the league. My weight gain. A lack of free time. Grrr. FGoots. Arrgh. Then there's THIS! Apparent seeing and then slipping back into thinking like this. Non acceptance of reality. No perspective. Same old, same old.

Is there a me having these shitty thoughts or are there just a bunch of shitty thoughts swirling in this head? I noticed last night that there is a 'performance' factor happening in these emails. Am I needing to 'perform well' or is there just a thought that arises and becomes in play?

The grumpiness subsides with the first sip of coffee and a change in perspective regarding my thinking. My thinking? Or just thinking? I think of a me attaching to thoughts and quickly realize there would be / is no me to attach to anything.

So the grumpy train seems to have slowed considerably. Normally I would be grumpy for hours. In the past it could last days and even weeks. Am I grumpy? There are negative thoughts? A growing sequence of them. Repeating. Being believed. by me? Do "I" feel emotions or are they just felt?

I look at the email from you below, from a few days ago, and thoughts arise that I should have answered these questions by now. What's left if "I" can't beat "my SELF" up anymore? Reality. Hasn't been done. Doesn't say anything about me because there is no me. I am still taking any gurgle of negative emotion as evidence that I exist/exists. I haven't done what's been asked of me. gurgle gurgle arggh. It is not necessarily evidence of a "me". I'm bad. The mind has used "me" as a tool for correcting behavior since childhood. It's just identification with the story. I am the story I have about myself. Without I, it's a story attached to nothing. The story is still there. Thoughts about the history of this human being are still there. Memories are still there. Mental pictures are still there. Even emotions attached to the memories are still there. The story is associated with this human being but it's not OWNED by it. No owner.

It's a massive delusion so tiny and subtle. It's a tiny, little thing masquerading as a giant monster. Utterly powerless. Not even tiny. Non existent. An ant is real. The thought of me is not. But when the person's thinking is cloaked in "ME", the entire world looks completely different. How can something that doesn't exist have any power. Thoughts like "The "I" is taking over my thoughts again" or whatever are absurd.

I look back at what I wrote 30 minutes ago, or so, "I'm just plain GRUMPY" and they are letters in sequence. G-R-U-M-P-Y. Might as well be X-J-M-F-A-L. It's just like money. We taking thinking and thoughts, which are representive OF something and believe it actually IS something. A paper bill is just paper, yet we can take it as representative of value. The words and images for I, me, my, self are communication tools only. They are labels for this human being. They help this human being get the salt at the dinner table.

Thought arises, "do I really get it?". Thought arises "no I to get it". Just thoughts. Story. Commentary. Habitual brain activity representative of nuttin'. There's a war going on and there's NOBODY ON THE OTHER SIDE! Seeing is merely acknowledging what can actually be seen. Is there typing. Yes. Is there breathing. Yes. Is there a hum sound coming from the computer. yep. Is there typing stopping and then starting again. Yes. Are there thoughts in the head. yes. Do the objects of thoughts actually exist? No. Is the thought of the keyboard the ACTUAL KEYBOARD? no. Is the thought of the computer hum the ACTUAL computer hum? no. Is the thought of the human being typing these words the ACTUAL HUMAN BEING? no. It's not "I'm a little teapot and I'm okay." It's "I'm a little label and I don't exist in reality." I know. Gotta work on the lyricism...

Have I really got it? comes up again. no I to get it. comes up again. Just fGootsin' thoughts representing nothing. How can the object of a thought have a thought? EVEN if the object of the thought has had a meticulously crafted story built around it over decades!!? Ornate bullshit is still bullshit.

Goots:
Nov 18

Ok, if you remember an event from the childhood, bring that memory closer- was there a self there?
This is kind of a trick question. I don't think it's meant as that but ...

I'm being asked to find the self in a past event, that no longer exists in reality (the event), and answer a question related to a memory of that event, which is a thought existing in the present. Mental backflip, somersault, headtilt, no. The self is a mental construct now, and was a mental construct then. No actual self existed or has ever existed, though it was believed to be real for many, many years, starting about age 3 or 4. Perhaps very sporadically or intermittently prior to that, starting at age 2.

is there I in that picture?

There is no "I" in the picture I have as a child. There is a young human organism on a bicycle. Having thoughts and reacting to those thoughts as if they were real rather than imaginary. The choices that been made, could they have been different? What was, was. It wasn't different and can't be different. Life goes as it does. Once done, that's it. There has been a mental story filled with alternatives and reconstructions but those were all fantasies - many of them stressful. This shouldn't have happened. That shouldn't have happened. But it happened.

Was there an entity inside that little boy's skin?
Doe a deer a female deer. Ray a drop of golden sun. Me an entity inside that little boy's skin? Huh? ...
Me, a name, I call myself. No. not quite. Me, a name, yes. I call myself. Yes, in language only, but not as far as a 'separate entity' inside the little boy's body is concerned. Can't find that entity. Thoughts occur about this "me" thing, but no actual me exists. It's a reference for the organism called Goots.


Then imagine yourself in 1 year from now, is there a self there?
I have completely screwed up this inquiry process and instead of seeing there is no me, I've actually created one out of nothing! So much for performance and approval. No, there is no me now, no me in the past, no me in the future. Even if there is a lapse into identification with the mental story of me, there still wouldn't be an actual me. I is the object/subject of thought only.

How does this image get created?
Me is an inference. My parents and relatives and others referred to me as Gootsy. They said "you are Gootsy" and so the thought came "I am Gootsy." They said "This is your nose, Gootsy." So I thought "This is MY nose." I am Gootsy and I own this nose. They said "Where did YOU go and play Gootsy?" and I said "I went to Kenny's house." And so this little boy associated his body, his thinking, his activities, and everything else with a me, I , self named Gootsy. From this was inferred an actual me, I, self. Just as every(?) other human child has done throughout history, and perhaps into prehistory. Live was then lived self-referentially. My day. My school work  My job. My girlfriend. My pain. My knee. My story. My thinking. etc etc etc. This way of life is further entrenched because every other person seems to be under the same understanding. Their day. Their school work  Their job. etc etc. There isn't a reason to question what is "patently understood". We agree that living an ego centric life isn't optimal, so we have therapists and counsellors, and drugs, but the structure of our thinking is not questioned. The basic assumption that "I exists" is not looked into nor looked at.

If you're asking how does this "future self in one year" image get created, then exactly as any other imaginary me image gets created. There is a thought. And within the mental picture or story an image of my self is inserted. This is not this organism, but a mental picture of this organism. And along with this picture HAS BEEN an assumption that "I" am that. Is it created by the I or mind creates it effortlessly and observes it by itself?

The subject/object of a thought doesn't have the power to create. The inference that I exists is merely a centerpiece for an elaborate life story that gets built up around it. Events are attached to it. Reactions are attached to it. Emotions are attached to it. Experiences are attached to it. Traits and characteristics are attached to it. Talents and predispositions are attached to it. Other beliefs are attached to it. Dreams and aspirations are attached to it. Philosophies and attitudes, preferences and dispositions. The creation of a mental story of "me" is effortlessly created and observed in the mind - impacting behavior. It SEEMS like the "I" is having thoughts, choosing directions, implementing plans, managing activity, and producing results - or fucking things up. The results of which feed back and reflect upon the self story. However, since "I" is just the subject/object of thoughts, it can't have thoughts itself, choose directions, implement plans, manage activity, produce results or even, (PHEW!) fuck up! The imaginary I can't fuck up. This leaves one possibility. That nobody is having thoughts, they just happen. That nobody is implementing plans, plans just get implemented (or not). That nobody manages activity, but activity gets managed (or not). That nobody produces results or fucks up, but results get produced, or not,and fuckups happen or not. What's left? SPACE.

Is this image reality?

A mental image can never be reality. It is an image. In a similar way, a photo of something is not the thing photographed. The difference is that a photograph of a church is a photo of something that DOES exist in reality while the mental image of "me" in the future is NOT representative of somethign that exists in reality. It is image PLUS belief.

Then look at others. Friends, family, strangers. Is there a me in them?

Hmm. The sentence "They believe in me." has taken on a whole new meaning. Just about everyone I know is a believer. They believe there is a real, separate self running their life, in charge of things, owning stuff, and making decisions. Just because they believe it doesn't make it so. The belief impacts their behavior but doesn't mean there is a me in them. This organism has a self concept, as they do. But just that, a self CONCEPT. It's a story. An idea. But not an entity.

Are there separate entities driving those bodies and minds? What do you find?

Those bodies and minds are driven by thoughts and habits and conditioned responses and impulses and external stimuli. They're buffeted by what's seen and heard and experienced. By what's remembered and not remembered. However, there is no controlling entity pulling levers and stepping on the gas pedal.

Now look at Goots. Is he here?

Goots is here as an organism labeled or named Goots, but there is no separate entity existing within the body or mind controlling what happens. There is a self concept related to Goots, with a history, memories of experiences, memories of relationship dynamics, memories of accomplishments and failures, holidays and projects, likes and dislikes. However, no me can be found in reality in any physical way. The pen on my desk has substance. Goots does not. The thought of the pen on my desk is an image, and as such so is Goots. A mental image. Long constructed but still without substance. Worked and reworked and reworked, massaged and coddled. But still just a mental image.

What is here?

The hum of the computer. The tippy tapping of the keys on the keyboard. The feeling of the glasses on the nose of this human being as it views the words materializing on the blank screen as typing takes place. The feeling of the bottom of the feet against the credenza. The noticing of the backspacing to correct and mispelled word. The feeling of a place on the stomach that might need scratching. The tilt up of the head. Breathing. The hearing of the breathing of my spouse as she sleeps in the other room. Thoughts that items on my desk require attention. The thought of the time (12:52am). A thought that there STILL might be bullshit clouding my seeing. The seeing. A throbbing in the bottom of my left foot. The noticing of the eyeglasses on the nose again. More typing.

Footnote: There is a thought to ask you to double and triple check "me" to ensure "I'm" not getting away with just an intellectual understanding or some such.
There is no me to bullshit you, but bullshit can still happen!

Ilona:
Nov 18
.........
Wow, that your friend got through just by reading the GG book. Amazing.
Would be great if he could write to me and we could talk.


Oh yeah, I see that veil has been pierced, the imaginary I is being seen to be an illusion, great.

But what is here that still seeks approval? Is there I to own the bullshit?
Hehe, yes, bs can still happen, and be seen for what it is.

How does it feel to see that iEntity was imagined?

Much love.


Goots:
Nov 18

The other night when I was reading pages 68 and 69 in the Gateless Gatecrashers book there was a seeing through of "I". Particularly relating to there being witnessing without a witness. This resulted
in a subtle but profound state change. Since that time, the state at that time has diminished, and there are
thoughts of doubt arising from time to time. Did I really see through this or, rather, was it really seen through?

Behaviour has definitely been different, but still those doubt thoughts remain. Thought structures have been observed to be unravelling, but still the doubt thoughts come up, again because of an expectation that the initial state change should have remained.

Part of what's going on is that there are residual habits, expectations, beliefs and patterns of behaviour and thought which are still in place, but shifting. Just because there is an approval seeking taking place doesn't mean there is an "I" seeking approval. It SEEMS logical that seeing through "me" would eliminate the need for approval seeking, since there is no me to seek approval and thus no need for it. However, and again, there are these residual elements which are, in fact, still in place. It's like the foundation of things has been dissolved but things that it has been supporting haven't yet crashed to the ground.

For example, there remains an infrastructure of expectation, that now has no foundation. But there is a time delay involved wherein the infrastructure still operates, but can be toppled with a slight nudge. There is the way it is expected to take place and there is the way it actually is. Expectations are imaginary sequences of events. Santa's route from the North Pole. It makes sense that the initial state of freedom and clarity isn't existing at the moment because it's clouded by the dust rising as a result
of the collapse of a world(view).

The next question is 'does it matter?'. Can I stop, now, and be present in that same way? Of course, can stopping happen? Yes, significantly less internal chatter comes immediately.

Is there an I that still seeks approval? There is no I that seeks approval, but there may yet be approval seeking. In the context of our conversation, there is still a desire for 'confirmation'. Iron clad, no bullshit, this time it's for real, confirmation. There is some comparison there. As mentioned, I'd worked with three other people along this vein without success. Is it possible that "I" has some power to hide out somewhere and subvert the process? No. But it's possible that identification with a fictional "I"
reoccurs. It wouldn't be an entity identifying however. Just as there has never been an entity identifying. Identification happens when it does, and doesn't when it doesn't.

The iDentity entity
isn't a me
It's an imaginary friend
that's not mine
The iDentify entity
isn't an I
and your imaginary friend
isn't thine
We all seem to have
iDentity entities
running around in our head
But absolutely everyone's
iDentity entity
is something non-existent
it's dead.
My personal favourite iDentity entity
the one I've always enlisted
Is the same as your iDentity entity
neither of which
ever
existed.


Ilona:
Nov 18

First time you took a look and seeing happened was an opening. Now it's available at any moment. It's not about experience that followed the seeing, is about being able to see this whenever you stop to look.

Does that make sense?
Checking will be happening till it stops. And flow with it. Notice that happening and notice how behaviours change.

It certainly takes time to stabilise.
The crash of belief system can be gradual or instant, whichever way it is for you, that is way it is. Trusting that helps to balance.

What kind of power I has?
What is it still in charge of?

Much love.


Goots:
Nov 19

Good morning, Ilona

Thank you for that clarification. It is extremely helpful.

Also, I had a conversation on the phone with my friend who awoke
reading your book and I believe he's now in touch with you. Thank you for being there so readily for people. I am very happy for my friend, and pleased that he can plug into your support structure. "I" am also extremely grateful for all the work you've done
for "myself" !

What kind of power does I have?

It doesn't have any power and never did because it doesn't exist and never did. The object of a thought doesn't have power any more than any imaginary character has power. What's true is that the belief in an actual me has an impact in the same way that a paranoid person, convinced
that everyone wants to kill them, would have an impact on their behaviour. The mental story just colours reality.

What is I still in charge of?

It's not in charge of anything because it doesn't exist. However, and again, there are residual belief structures that may be taking their time to crumble. For example, the truth that nobody is aware has been seen but the realization that nobody scratches may not have been correctly seen yet. It's a very
minor fix. An habitual thought "I'm itchy". A scratch. A thought "I scratched". In one sense, the "I" just doesn't have anything behind it anymore. It's a
language device only. However, in some circumstances there may be some residual identification with that label.


Goots:
Nov 19

Just realized that "I" started as the misunderstanding of an innocent child.

Ilona:
Nov 20

Nice!

Are you ready for the final questions?


Goots:
Nov 20

Yes

Ilona:
Nov 20


Cool. Answer when ready in full :) looking forward to reading it.
<(Usual questions here)>

Goots:

1) Is there a 'me', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

I is/was a dream character. There was identification as the dream character and even a belief
that the dream character dreamt the dream character.

2) in the experience, is there an experiencer? Is it body that experiences or body is experienced?

The experiencer is a dream character. Body does not experience, there is just experiencing.

3) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works.

The innocent child, lacking a self concept, observes people in the world making reference to it as "you", "Gootsy", or "Sally". The child learns labelling and begins to understand that these labels represent real things. The doggie label represents a real doggie. The teddy bear label represents a real teddy bear, and so "me" is taken to represent a real "me". The child then mistakenly takes itself to be the thought it has of itself, and this mistaken perception persists into adulthood, gathering an extensive and nuanced story around it. The believing in a separate self then requires that it defend itself and all kinds of whacky behaviour ensues.

"Look at the elephant, Gootsy. Do "you" see it?"
"Yes, mommy. "I" do."
(There is seeing and the assumption that the imagined "I" does the seeing.)

contrast this to

"Look at the elephant, Gootsy. Is there seeing?"
"Yes, mommy, there is seeing an elephant."

The illusion of a separate self is the idea that there is a someone/something separate seeing and experiencing that which is
seen and experienced.

4) How does it feel to see this?

surprisingly unmoved.

5)How would you describe it to somebody who has never heard about this illusion but is curious about it.

Seeing through this is very doable. Just follow the simple instructions. Read the Gateless Gatecrashers and see the truth that there is still a human being doing all the same things, having thoughts, and sensing, but the "me" that has been taken to exist is just the concept "me" (self concept / self image). And the awareness of that "me" isn't "me" either, but just awareness without one who is aware. There is no watcher, but watching occurs. The whole illusion is simply the mistake made by an innocent child. You is the object of thought, nothing more. So when you read how this has happened for others, see that it is also possible for "you", in the same way that the possibility of breaking the four minute mile was imagined to be impossible until Roger Bannister proved that false.

6) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look? Can you describe the moment when seeing happened?

Reading the Gateless Gatecrashers and seeing there was watching (awareness) but no watcher. (pages 68/69).

7) have you got anything to add?

Seeing this is possible! It IS possible. It is quite subtle but simple. Persist. Don't let the fears and expectations stop the inquiry.

Goots:
Nov 23

Good morning Ilona. I am at the airport on my way from Victoria BC to Phoenix Arizona where I'll be spending a few days with my friend Gord and his wife. My spouse, will be joining us tomorrow. Should be able to access Internet from there do can continue the daily emails.

Regards


Ilona:
Nov 23


Thank you for answers!

Very interesting answer to question 4. You say that it's surprisingly unmoving.
Can you tell more about it?


Goots:
Nov 23

There are three aspects to this. There was the moment of realization, the expectation, and the attitude now.

1) The moment of realization felt like a small shift but contained within it a profound and deep change. In other words the shift itself was small but the location of that shift was fundamental (to all thought) and impacts everything.

2) the shift felt and feels  like nothing much at all - particularly compared to what was expected ( awe / wonder / bliss ).

 3) The attitude now is kind of like "of course". It's akin to being told that your hands won't be dirty any more of you wash them. A patently obvious fact, once seen, is nothing special.
Having said all this, there have been at least 3 occasions now where what is being experienced had been profoundly different and quite AWEsome. There have also been several dozen smaller behavioural shifts where "my" normal way of being isn't.

Goots:
Nov 25

This morning there is irritation, again, because of a contrast between expectations and experience.
The "I should be feeling blissed out and connected to everything" expectation has re-arisen. Mental
gymnastics are taking place where thoughts arise like "I need to rest in the moment." contrasted with
an immediate "There is no "I" to rest, blah blah blah." When a thought arises like "It should be different"
and I just rest in the moment, the thought dissolves and the problem along with it. There is also the
thoughts something like "I need to keep looking for no me." like I need to ensure "I got it / it was gotten".
It's like "without the I" there is a missing 'track to run on'...


Goots:
Nov 25

and now is the track, and what arises in the moment is the next thing to do.

Ilona:
Nov 25


1) The moment of realization felt like a small shift but contained within it a profound and deep change. In other words the shift itself was small but the location of that shift was fundamental (to all thought) and impacts everything. 

Here you nailed it. It's exactly how it was for me too.

2) the shift felt and feels  like nothing much at all - particularly compared to what was expected ( awe / wonder / bliss ).

Hahaha, yeah, it never is. That is why we address expectations as the first step. :) there are so many ideas about what it's got to be like and none of them are true.

 3) The attitude now is kind of like "of course". It's akin to being told that your hands won't be dirty anymore of you wash them.

Yeah, or if you put pink glasses on from that moment everyone will be nice to you and you will be happy ever after.

A patently obvious fact, once seen, is nothing special. 
Having said all this, there have been at least 3 occasions now where what is being experienced had been profoundly different and quite AWEsome. There have also been several dozen smaller behavioural shifts where "my" normal way of being isn't.

Yes, and they will keep coming.  :)
It's great to just notice.


Ilona:
Nov 25

If you compare awakening with tsunami, it's what it does to belief system and structure. There is time for clean up and settling in.

Nothing at all requires an I to arise. Reactions, projections, identifications, story, all come up just because to no one. Expectations is what creates tension. Trusting experience and trusting that all is happening as it should and that 'this too shall pass' are the things to remember, when stickiness comes up.  And it will keep coming up, till there will be fragments of imagined self in the system.

What expectations haven't been met?
Can you look closer into that?

Are they your expectations?


Much love.


Goots:
Nov 26

Hi Ilona

I did some extensive work on 'expectations' yesterday and blew up the silly notion
that my expectations haven't been met. Holy crap, was that a poor interpretation of
reality!

Expectations are simply stories of how "I" think it should be now, or in the future.
They have nothing to do with reality. They are largely born out of comparative thinking.
This happened this way to that person so it should happen that way to me. Or this happened
to me before this way so it should continue. When "I" get hooked into an expectation "I"
completely lose sight of what is. At that point it is just not possible to be grateful, as I can't
see anything that is actually around in the moment. It's an alternate universe.

As for your question as to whether or not they are 'my' expectations - no. They are just like
any other thoughts, arising and falling away from and into nothing. Sometimes they are met,
most often they are not. There are also a host of other expectations which are lived by, from a mundane standpoint, that do occur.

In a way, it is expected that if I start typing as I've always done, the letters that appear when I press the
keys I press will come out as expected. Press the X key and the X appears. This is more like 'operational
expectations'. Put foot forward, find surface to shift weight to. And occasionally, particularly when going
up stairs, there's 'put foot forward (believing there's one more step), find only air, stumble forward - startled.

Without expectations, this 'unravelling' merely rolls forward as it does, and there is more openness to greet whatever appears.


Goots:

Good morning Ilona. I am at the airport on my way from Victoria BC to Phoenix Arizona where I'll be spending a few days with my friend Gord and his wife. My spouse will be joining us tomorrow. Should be able to access Internet from there do can continue the daily emails.



Regards




Ilona:
Nov 27

So cool! You will have a great time :)

Can I put our conversation in the blog, so I can invite you to the support groups?

I can use whatever name you like, or just an initial, if you prefer. Out conversation may be helpful for somebody else.


Sending love.


Goots
Nov 27

Use "Goots" for my name. Thanks ;)

Ilona:
Thank you, it was my pleasure to "guide" you.