Reality is Life Meeting Life and Celebrating Itself

Roger:
Hi Ilona,
I think I saw the truth last night that there is no self. I'd done your list of questions...and kept wondering why I couldn't get it because nothing definite was happening? Then I was reading your session with Australian architect and statement came up....that, 'I's' can't see! and that did it, it was like wham!!!! of course, its so stupidly simple. I's can't see, and only I's have paths, and Gates and Enlightenment...for there even to be a gate there has to be an 'I' wanting to pass through.

This was followed by 10 mins or so laughing at absurdity of it all, and rest of evening feeling liberated and filled with relief. Today not much noticeable difference but a sense of being supported some vague way, and a lack of need to ask questions about difficult romantic situation I'm in with woman friend, a kind of knowing there is no need, that whatever will happen will be exactly right, and there was a noticeable lightening up when she visited!

I do want to nurture this if this is in fact the transition, and wasn't sure where to go next?
You mentioned there is another step on Libration Nation but I can't find LN? Or, do I go to the Gate Forum?

I'm 67 and have been seeking for 28 years. I have felt for a while I was right on the verge...very strong sense there was not self, etc. but had pretty much given up any active seeking. Then I saw you on Buddha at Gas Pump, a program I can barely stand to watch do to the questioner, but do on occasion purely for something to pass evening.

Want to thank you both for the most amazingly simple exposition of this subject I've ever come across.
Yours, Roger

Ilona:
Dear Roger,

Thank you so much for the message and such great news! I'm
Delighted to hear that seeing happened and it was seen, that I does not see!
Great.

Yes, there is a next step, I call it falling. But first lets check if you are through the gateless gate with both legs.

Do you exist?
What is the I?
Is there a self in any form or shape in reality, was there ever?

Please write in full, answer when ready, take your time with this.

Lots of love.
:))

Roger:
Hi Ilona, 
Thanks for such a quick response, its great you do this follow up. Anyway here goes...I do want to know if I have one foot in and one foot out.

"Do you exist?" 
I have to say no because this would take me back into identification with things.

I: That does not sound very confident :)

R: My experience at moment is like there's an energy that has unique experience of itself....but I can't find discernable sense of a 'you' or 'me' in it. In fact I'm not sure where it begins and ends?

I: Can it be that there is no beginning no end, all it is is this one energy?


R: Yes, it could, its new for me to be experiencing this, and of course energy is probably like water and there's no distinguishing one bit from rest, and if all is energy then there's no boundaries, no beginnings or ends. Yet, there's sense of uniqueness experienced, where does that come from?  
I don't see in any objects anything that reflects an identity of myself, I only see a passing of things...sometimes I do have experience of being reflected in some vague way, in another's eyes, and sometimes holding or embracing another the other can feel indistinguishable from myself. However, on another note, I am in a troubled relationship of 18 months, yesterday I proposed something and it was turned down, there was immediate experience of disappointment, so who was experiencing the disappointment was what came to mind? 


R: I don't see in any objects anything that reflects an identity of myself, I only see a passing of things...sometimes I do have experience of being reflected in some vague way, in another's eyes, and sometimes holding or embracing another the other can feel indistinguishable from myself. However, on another note, I am in a troubled relationship of 18 months, yesterday I proposed something and it was turned down, there was immediate experience of disappointment, so who was experiencing the disappointment was what came to mind? 

I: The feelings, are they personal? Are they appearing to a me, or are they raw sensations experienced?
Is there a feeler?


R: No, a me doesn't seem present in (my) experience recently. I didn't feel sense of personal, there was just sense of disappointment, raw sensation. About hour later thought came to remove myself from relationship. You querying me here has just lead to another realization, actually its quite a lump of awareness that's just hit me...thank you. It's this...My? experience has been of quite remarkable clarity recently, this appeared to (me? I'm using '?' words for convenience here) as a blue sky with sun shining. This relationship appeared like a dark cloud in the blue sky. Thought's were, I don't want to go into that cloud, I need to withdraw from relationship. 

Realization just came its in nature of sky to have clouds in it, some dark and some white and puffy...and there's nothing 'I' can do about it, as 'I's' can't DO anything! Because 'I' is just a thought, and can't effect anything. So there's just awareness of sky with clouds passing taking place...and all that's arising is always only, what is. (Hope that last makes sense?)


R: "What is the I?" 
The I is a false construct of thoughts claiming to be cause for what's happening in life and originator of actions.

I: I is a thought. A single unit. Not a construct. It's one thought that appears before other thought and is a label.

R: For quite a time now there's been little or no sense of an experience of this. I'm an artist and have always felt it was not me painting the pictures, but that some energy came in and did it effortlessly if I only let it. I've sensed this in rest of my life....something was doing all of it, and I could trust it to bring me the best conclusions, beyond anything I might anticipate.

I: Yes! All is like that. There is no one doing living.

R: This happened a year ago when I was 'effortlessly' moved from living in US to Mexico. I'd tried for years to effect similar move myself from where I lived but kept being returned back to where I was trying to move from, defeated! 

I: I know exactly what you are saying here.  Things do not happen until they do. And when it happens there is sense of effortlessness.

R: "Is there a self in any form or shape in reality, was there ever?"
No, and there never was. I've had many mini awakenings over the years but they've all reverted back to previous state, which I've put down to my expectations at time, that there was going to be some decisive transformation in the 'self'? However, my sense of self was quite diminished by these experiences. 

I'm concerned this is another, and will revert back, but this is not so much an 'experience'. I did see clearly this time that all the attributes of the false 'self' were inevitably attached to it, the endless unanswerable questions, the sense of neediness, the void inside, the search for purpose, and so on. There couldn't be one without the other!

What seems different this time is the feeling there's nothing to be gained by this, it's so subtle, though the other evening when penny dropped it was as if whole world shifted. All I can sense is an increased lightness of being and increased feeling of assurance all can only be well however its appearing. I catch myself wondering did something really happen? But words come more effortlessly at meetings, I don't have to think about what to say, and there's little sense of the one saying them, so something has happened.

I want to mention, the other evening after I'd done your questions, I'd also lightly done the head heart dialogue, asking what was stopping me from getting this, I didn't seem to get direct answer...but assured the mind it could relax and let it happen and.... look what happened!!!! I also did the... imagining I came upon myself dead exercise...and saw with great clarity the body was only an object among other objects. Still not quite sure how to account for the energy felt within the body....there's a sense of beingness to it.

I: This is very clear.

Tell me, is there a difference between I, me, self and roger.
What do you notice here?


R: No, there isn't any difference, they all seem like thoughts floating in some space in mind with nowhere to go. 

I have tried to be as honest as possible as it would be good to have sense of where I'm at in this whole affair. Though either way I'm OK with it.

Best for now, R

I: Thank you very much for your sincerity.

Much love to you
.................

Roger:
I is a thought. A single unit. Not a construct. It's one thought that appears before other thought and is a label. 

R: I misunderstood you here, "What is the I?" I took to be...what is the identity of the "I." In singular, its clear that I is just a thought and not a construct, i.e. the stories stitched up around it giving sense of 'I"dentity? 

I did have experience a few years ago which I will recount in vernacular, which is perhaps only way i could experience it at the time. I was daydreaming on porch looking at mountains, this flashed across awareness,  over to left of me an apparent Inner Being, Real Self, gigantic, invisible to me, from this was 'purloined' and that word came attached, think it means taken without permission, a tiny portion which was over to right of me, around this was stitched stories, they appeared quite random and having no real connection to each other, just unrelated events or happenings, which needed this bit of being to activate them.. This was the personal self. I saw inevitably only a void could be experienced at its centre... because it had been detached from source of being, which was waiting patiently for it to be returned. After this I knew there was no personal self, that it was false  entity in mind, patched together, with a name pulled out of a hat attached.  (I didn't put this in my last response as I thought it a digression from what was being dealt with.) 

What do you notice here? 
R: What I noticed was the words I, me, and self, felt closer, nearer, in someway, than roger, which felt more abstract, but they all seemed to have nowhere to attach.

(Note; I have in past occasionally referred to myself in third person, e.g. with slight humor, "Roger seems to like smoking." What I liked about this was it created distinction between words being said and apparent person saying them. It intrigued me as it created a slight echo that felt more truthful.) Hope this helps clarify...two feet in, one in one out, or, no feet anywhere!!!
Love you too for doing all this, R

Ilona:
"Yes, it could, its new for me to be experiencing this, and of course energy is probably like water and there's no distinguishing one bit from rest, and if all is energy then there's no boundaries, no beginnings or ends. Yet, there's sense of uniqueness experienced, where does that come from? " 

what happens if you replace word energy with simple word LIFE?
look around, everything is unique. every leaf on a tree is unique. such is life- all has a flavor of uniqueness, there is nothing special about that.

the rest, nice nice nice. yes, that makes a lot of sense. this is exactly it.
there is an exercise on this post. do it. this may help to see clearer, how it all works.
write to me what you noticed.
much love.

ps. btw, love is the best teacher of all. it burns through conditioning like it's made of petrol.
good luck with your lady friend.

Roger:
Hi Ilona, 
First I have to say I was complexity stunned by your comment on uniqueness of energy, that everything in world was unique....that I hadn't made such an obvious association that was staring me in face, leaves on trees, flowers, grains of sand even!!! So thanks for that, also thanks for suggestion of changing word 'energy' to 'life' makes much more sense...and becomes a complete explanation.

I did read and do exercise recommended in link you sent. The explanation you give of how 'me' comes into being  and the effect it has, was very simple and clear. The exercise was interesting...I felt much more tense using 'I' word for 10min, then slow relaxation doing same without 'I' word....then relaxation sweeping over me towards end. 

The funny thing is the second part of exercise, now I glance at it, gives a much more interesting picture,  describes a world of events and subjects just happening all by themselves, even thoughts and names crossing mind, which I included in description...as they were occurring in the time being written down.

Your comment, love...burns through conditioning. I just spoke with woman friend who called me, and treated call as phenomenon in the now, and there were no problems...we were two beings talking to each other, that's all, and it was lovely, the love between us was present, in the event!!!!  It was just an event.

I feel really grateful to you for all this. I don't know where I am in it anymore...nor do I care particularly. I had lunch with a friend who was at a 12 Step meeting we go to, Alanon, and he said when I spoke there was like a light coming out of eyes? There's days when this energy, 'life', seems to be pouring through me, then there's days when its muted, though I can feel it in background. Plus I'm speaking with incredible increase in confidence, ease, and feeling great clarity of being and mind.

I did have experience about 7yrs ago of radical shift in consciousness, which lasted 3 months. It was much more like what you describe on Labels page, I could look at any though in my mind and watch it unravel like a ball of wool, I saw the roots that made it up and that it was totally false. I experienced a lot of semantic shifting too, there was no such thing as 'here' or 'there', and everything was purely positive, nothing appeared that contained negative in anyway. Insights popped into mind all the time, like, happiness was state of being, hope was to wish for noting at all...etc. I tried to write some of it down but couldn't make it make any sense on page, or in words. You have written your realization down with amazing clarity.

So, I've no idea where I'm at? 

Much love to you R

Ilona:
you have no idea where you are? do you exist?

:)

Roger:
YES!  (Point taken)

Ilona:
Hm so what would the answer be to my  question, do you exist?

Roger:
Can I say Hm too?! No 'you', 'me', 'I', exists, they're just thoughts, they can neither see, feel, or do, anything,....experience is happening, the experiencer is indistinguishable from that being experienced, its all 'life', impersonal but at the same time incredibly unique. The body is an object among other objects experienced. Stories come and go....there will always be stories, (I like that!) they are like clouds floating across the  sky.

I see, in the statement I made "I don't know where I'm at?" (which was more a figure of speech, or laziness on my part)  there's no 'I', no 'where,' and no 'at'!  So, there's no 'problem'!!!! There's no 'knowing' either as that implies a 'knower'!!!! There's just 'what is' and that's all there is. 
My emphatic YES! in last email was to, there's an energy happening, which we've agreed to call 'Life', which is simultaneously experiencing itself. I liked very much your analogy of the 'lenses'.
I also see, when I said I don't know where I'm at? It implies there's still a questioner.(????)

Ilona:
hm, question does not necessarily imply a questioner. it's just a thought passing by. if there is stickiness, returning to the same question over and over again, then it is a good chance that there is something there waiting to be discovered.
you seem clear to me.

can you confirm, that you are ready for the final questions? have you seen through illusion of separate self?

sending love.

Roger:
No, there's no stickiness. What came up reading your email was, why is an identity still being assume, even if only as shadow? Compared to your clarity, its all thought. The other thing was slight feeling of nervousness at mention of final questions, though it was gone almost as soon as it arrived? There doesn't seem to be any investment being made here. What's also reassuring is that this is not so much an 'experience' as a shift. I've had experiences before and they come and go. Mind is remarkable clear most of time as well, thoughts are no longer moving armchairs in and taking up residence.
Yes, to your last question, separate self is seen as an illusion.

love from this end too, R

Ilona:
Awesome Roger!

here are the questions. Please answer in full when ready.

Roger:
Hi Ilona, 
Been a bit of delay as I've been busy, but I see from your website so have you. Here's my answers, slight confusion over what question 3 asked, but feel I've covered it in other answers. Didn't expect my answers to be so long, hope you're a speed reader!

1) Is there a 'me', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever? how about self, is there anything that is separate from everything else? 

R. No there isn't a 'me' at all, anywhere, in any shape or form. It's a false sense of identification established with 'words' early in life.  Neither is there a self, 'self' is also only a word in thought, (none locatable as entity of any kind) that identifies experiences with body and creates illusion of a personal self/world. There is nothing that is separate from anything else, experience and experiencer are one. Experience is unique in whatever passing shape, form, or way, it's occurring, and is life meeting itself and celebrating Itself in world of apparent form. A seamlessness enfolds everything, that's the impression received, there is 'nowhere' for 'separateness' to exist, so must be only an idea, thought, in mind.

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works.

R. As in 1 above plus: the repetition of words in early childhood, 'I',  'you', 'me', accompanied by pointing, and constant repetition of abstract name associated with body as object. Massive learning feat accomplished at very early age, though no necessary total, as children continue drawing sun with smiling face, and flowers with faces, etc. indicating everything seen as extension of Life itself. Word 'I' (thought) becomes attached to five senses, I see, I feel, I hear, creating illusion of there being a separate 'I' that is doing the seeing, hearing, feeling, capable of being a cause and having real effects. This idea is reinforced and confirmed by others thereby giving a validity to assumptions being made. Along with this, sense of free will is established, with responsibility for personal actions, so the world of separation arises, populated with concepts and thoughts substituted for Realty of.... What Is.

3) How does it feel to see this? describe in detail.

R. There's slight confusion here with what this question asks? My experience of seeing separate self? 
There have been many occasions over past few years when I have seen, or been shown, separate self was illusion, none though that was apparently strong enough to blow it away for good. Recent past leading up to the present, seemed like there was only slight sense of self, but enough to act as a locator of experiences, i.e. troubled relationship with lady friend. Now any idea of 'troubled', or 'problem', or of there being 'questions' that might lead to clarity, has vanished. Now a clarity is present that accepts what is 'as' all that is, and as always momentarily passing and perfect. Sense of aloneness, spending much of time alone, has also vanished. As if that which was experiencing it has gone, that everything is part of everything else and so sufficient in its self such a state could never have existed.

4) How would you describe it to somebody who has never heard about this illusion but is curious about it. 

R. Sense of separate self feels alienating, void inside is experienced, loneliness, boredom, become common experiences. Self feels cut off from world, which is experienced as arena for personal action, with self as motivator and responsible for actions. World and others seen as capable of acquiescing or resisting ones wishes, as being the cause of personal happiness, unhappiness, pain. Emotions are attributed to life situation and others. Sense of vulnerability and emotional dependency on how others respond to imaginary self is common experience. Others life style and behavior often blamed for causing pain. During life wall of defenses created against disappointment, everything becomes filtered through these defenses, which are seen as who we are, creating illusion of entity....'me', 'self', 'myself'. This wall can seem quite thick, but it's an illusion that can crumble at ones feet in moment. In my case, when time was right, by finger pointed and few words spoken. What was behind this wall....Who I really was... in all its glowing inappropriateness! I felt love for this one straight away, also realized this is where joy and happiness had made their home, so explaining why they'd been such rare visitors in my previous life. However, there was still one further step for me to take which I call the dropping of the penny.

5) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look? was there a specific moment when seeing happened or was it gradual? what exactly happened?

R. This is what I call penny dropping. The last bit that pushed me over was the statement made somewhere on your site, 'I is a thought. 'I' can't do anything.'  What happened then is the world seemed to shift and a sense of lightness came, a slight feeling like being high, huge feeling of relief and release. In retrospect it didn't seem to qualify to be called an 'experience', but something had changed, I knew that. There wasn't so much a burst of seeing, but the whole room seemed to be lighter, sense of the seeking head, which had been there few moments before vanished.

The week following there were other incidents, one occasioned with the statement...'A 'me' doesn't exist.' Something like that, and I remember being stunned by the implications of this. There was consistent happiness and lightness of being experienced each day, sometimes high, sometimes muted. Then a wave of gratitude hit....like a fountain in the heart that couldn't be turned off....for past life that had lived and all who had been in it. In street in early morning, to space for its spaciousness, that allowed the sounds of all the activity to echo around. Totally wacky! Glimpse from street of town I'd been brought to live in, tears coming up, overwhelming gratitude for gift that seemed beyond belief.

Little fireworks like this going off in awareness...writing email to friend...this popped up, in relation to having a cup of tea!, "Reality always reassures and confirms the you of YOU." Translated...Reality is Life meeting Life and celebrating Itself. This experience is affirming and uplifting....so can easily be distinguished from life lived under mental blanket. I realized there had been many such moments throughout my life, on beach watching sea, sunsets, dawns, experiences of nature, flowers, birds, animals, etc. but I had not understood what they were.

Ilona:
wow Roger, thank you for answers. i can see that the gate has been busted  :))
so happy for you. and yes, it is not the end, but the beginning of exploration, the journey continues, there still be ups and downs and no guaranty that you may never fall in to a trap of story, but what has been seen is always available to see again, in every moment.

thank you so much, for reaching out and getting this Roger character free.

may i have your permission to post this on my blog, so it may be of help to someone else and i can get you into aftercare groups. there is a whole community of us there, all that seen through this illusion of i and are sharing their journeys with honesty and love. it really is great support, when questions arise, when belief system starts melting and all structures start falling. would love if you joined. and even if you do not have a facebook account it is never too late to create one.

i can use your name, or whatever other name that you choose for the blog.

sending love.

Roger:
Hi Ilona, 
What a lovely wake up present your email was at 6am this morning....with fireworks going off celebrating Mexican Independence!!!!! 

Yes, you may use anything that's been said between us on your blog, and also my name. I would like to join the fb page, I already have an account and page there. Can you let me know how I do that, do I need invitation? I will also join the after care group, is that Liberation Unleashed, or the Forum, are they the same?

Thank you so much for taking me through all this, at last having someone out there who clarifies, and somewhere to share....a community, its incredible what you're doing.

I already have been sharing little bits of this at 12 Step meetings, it produces either defenses, silence, or embraces, the embraces tend to be in the singular, but two thank you's yesterday! I feel a need to give back some of what I've received, which is I'm sure what you doing.