The Belief in an I-Entity Creates Separation

Paola:
Hello from Italy Ilona, I would like your help. I believe I still didn't see through the illusion properly, I think I had some 'states ' but also I kind of forced myself into believing.I feel quite frustrated now. Please Ilona help me, I want to get out of this and I want to do it with you. I don't want to fool myself anymore. Love, Paola


Ilona:
Hello from England
Hm, interesting, so you think you tricked yourself into believing rather than seeing it. I'd say you saw it, but mind using all the tricks to fool you in going back the way it was. It keeps going back to the I trying to find it, but it's not there, so doubt comes up and confusion starts. It's pretty normal at this stage.

Tell me with whole honesty, can you believe again that there is a separate entity behind word me that is in charge of your life?

Don't try to please anyone here, just say as it is.
Much love.

Paola:
Ilona , thank you for getting back to me.
This is where I seem to be:
I don't think that I am in charge of my life, but I do feel that this life that is happening ( I don't do life, sure) is also happening to me. I feel the separation.
After a couple of days in which there was this light feeling and more spaciousness, or so I believed, something happened and a strong emotion arose, fear of losing a close person, jealousy etc, and it didn't feel like 'there is fear or sadness', it felt like I was sad, I was jealous.This is my honesty. In my mind, because of a silly attitude, I felt like I had to show Bill that I was" getting it", that I was good.....and intellectually there is not even the shadow of a doubt that there is no me. you have no idea how frustrated I feel, last two nights I couldn't sleep more than a few hours. Sometimes It feels like I am almost there, but I have noticed that I am forcing the experience. Hugs from Toscany xxx

Paola:
I don't believe that there is a me entity behind the word me, but this is not enough, is still in the mind.

Ilona:
What are your expectations? Do you think that something needs to happen? What would make it enough?

Paola:
My expectation is to really see / feel that there is no self, that there is not an entity that needs to deal with life in some way. To end this feeling of searching for something, for fulfilment.just more peace and natural ok ness . There is this seeking energy .....nothing big or nothing in particular needs to happen....may be a little uncaused joy? less striving?

Paola:
Also I would add less anxiety in general which has always been my big problem that from time o time became serious depression that needed to be treated with drugs. I guess than when is really seen that there is no self there is really less sticking to fears and anxiety ....no one is giving this emotions energy, they are free to go

Ilona:
Hi dear.

What you are going through now is settling in period. Some say it lasts around 2 months. It may be very intense at times and feels like everything is slipping away. The key is to let go. Don't try to hold on anything. The more you resist the harder it gets. There is no meaning in life other than what meaning you give it to, so let go of that too. And hope. And all the rest. Just watch the feelings and let the fire do it's thing. Remember always, everything is unfolding in a perfect way.
One of best tools that I can suggest is writing. Write whatever comes up, see it outside your system, throw it out. All that repressed crap needs to go, do let it go.

After a while it will get lighter and lighter. And lighter. But for now your job is to face it, allow whatever comes up come up and release the shit. It's not pleasant, but it works. How long it will take is up to how much you resist and how much was repressed.

It's like purging time. Burning time, clean up operation. I know it sounds crazy, but as soon as you feel shit coming up say - wow, yumm, I have an opportunity to release this. Ok. Come up, let's see what's behind. I can deal with this and so on. Rather than try to avoid, welcome the suffering. It can not take it. It will go.

Sending love.

Paola:
Thank you Ilona, for your time and dedication.I already thought I was facing things. I am not trying to avoid all the nasty feelings and the general 'shit' , actually in the last year I use to practice 'rest as awareness' without trying to change the experience according to the teaching of Candice o'denver Balanced View. . I write from time to time but I will do it more often.I just feel alone, separated.I was just disappointed that I didn't see through illusion , I really believed I could do it. I just want to tell you that probabably in my dialogue with Bill at a certain point things became a bit different , we exchanged a lot of PM and I felt it was becoming a bit too intimate, different from what I expected, and Bill also agree with this, He put a lot of energy and dedication in our dialogue , but he become a bit captivated and something didn't go right towards the end.Bill also recognise this. I would like so much to do the inquire again. Starting from 0 again with total honesty and focus and no other stories in the middle of it.Can you go through it with me once again? whenever you have time and in the way you prefer. But if you don't feel like I will understand. Sending love to you.

Ilona:
Ok, we can go through it. Step by step. I thank you for coming out with honesty.
For tonight just rest. We start tomorrow. We can talk on fb rather than forum and I will let you know what time is best for me, you let me know when it's good for you and we will have a proper chat.
Sweet dreams, my friend.


Paola:
Thank you so much Ilona. Really. I have some family reunion' tomorrow but the chat with you is a priority for me. I think for me it would be better either in the morning before 11 am (England time) or in the afternoon after 3pm (England time). If this doesn't work for you, I am also completely available on Monday from 2pm on. Thank you dear Ilona. Sleep well, love.


Ilona:
Cool. I think 3 is good, will still be having people in the morning.

Hmm family reunion is a powerfull catalyst as you get to see lots of conditioning playing out. Keep your eyes open. And trust your intuition.
This is actually very interesting and consider all what comes up as a gift.

Much love!

Paola:
Good morning Ilona!Yes it is interesting. The attitude towards my family changed completely in the last years, there is just much more love. Eyes open. Speak to you at 3, I will have about 1 hour, need to stay with people visiting..... But then Monday afternoon I ll be much freer. Love and gratitude!

Paola:
Hello Ilona, I am here when you are ready, xxx
Here when you are ready, xxx
I have just noticed that the poper chat on fb doesn't work on this I-pad, we can chat directly here on private message or through Skype ( paolalondon44)

Ilona:
Hey paola. We can chat here .
Cool. So tell me, what is the I that you are referring to?


Paola:
It looks more than a thought, it is dense, a kind of claud

Ilona:
More than a thought? How?

Paola:
It is almost a physical contraction of energy or space, I know it sounds absurd but this is how it feels,

Ilona:
Look at that contraction right now, is it there?

Paola:
It is felt, or may be it is only assumed...
There is this unity moving through space and time


Ilona:
Feeling is real.
The label 'me' is assumption. Not real.

Paola:
I haven't been able to isolate the I like a thought

Ilona:
There is no I. That is why.


Ilona:
Look now at the feeling of being (verb) aliveness, awaring of senses.
This is real.
Notice that sense.

Paola:
Ilona I don't see your message straight away but only after some seconds is it fine?

Ilona:
Yes, it's ok.
Do you have fb messenger app on your iPad?


Paola:
Every time I need to check if the message is arrived. Sure the sense of Aliveness is real
No idea it's the first time I use it...


Ilona:
Is that sense personal? Is it here if there are no thoughts?
Ok, download fb messenger of you can if not, we talk as now. A bit of delay is fine.

Paola:
This is the point I don't see where the thoughts stop and the feelings begin, it seems jut one unit


Ilona:
It's not one unit.
Thought is sensed as thought. Wait for next thought to arive. Can you spot it as thought?

Paola:
Let's continue like this, I'll download for tomorrow if we continue

Ilona:
Feeling is thoughtless. It's a sensation in the body.
Thought labels feeling.

Paola:
But feelings and thoughts seem both to belong to this body and this body seem to belong to a me

Ilona:
Seems. Yes. It's assumption. What is 100% true? Feelings are felt in the body, true?

Paola:
When a feeling is felt is felt by a me it is nit just felt

Ilona:
What is feeling now that is here?

Paola:
Yes in the body
Kind of rentlessness in the body, and agitation in the troath


Ilona:
Is it there if you don't think about it?

Paola:
I am not sure probably if I don't think about I it I don't even realise that it is there

Ilona:
Feel it. Sense it. Watch it. Where is it in the body?

Paola:
What the feelings?
I sense something in the head and troath

Ilona:
What happens when attention goes there?

Paola:
Seems they are aliveness, energy,

Ilona:
Yes, it's energy. What mind does it automatically labels it and i claims the ownership of feeling, Can you see that?

Paola:
Yes the mind says: this is my feeling, this is me having this feeling but the label that claims ownership is so immediate that it is very difficult to isolate it like a label

Ilona:
All words are labels. No exeption. Words are pointers. Do you get that?

Paola:
Yes I do pointers for everything

Ilona:
Can you see that thoughts are only pointing and describing, they are never things themselves?
What does thought I point to?

Paola:
Yes they describe all aspect of experience
I points to a body, a mind, feelings and data in general perceived from a brain,


Ilona:
Does it? Is there a body if it's not labelled I? Does body need an I? How about baby, does it have an I?

Paola:
Yes, there is a body even if it is not labelled I, body doesn't really need an I. Baby does not have an I, she looks like pure perception but her brain is not totally developed...what if I is a function of te brain?

Ilona:
Have a look. Does I have a function?

Paola:
It seems like every cells if my body says I
Of my body

Ilona:
Check again. Ask if it's true. Is it cells that say I or the mind?

Paola:
Mmhh the function for the sake of communication, to communicate the needs and preferences, to communicate experience

Ilona:
Language thing. Yes.

Ilona:
It is helpfull to communicate when speaking to someone else, so it's clear what we are talking about.
Is there any other function other than that?

Paola:
But what is then this power to know, this capacity to experience, this capacity to narrate experience

Ilona:
Does any of that require an I?
Des cat need an I to explore environment?


Paola:
I am not completely sure what you mean, I as a label is probably not required but this does not make a difference in the felt sense of i
But cat are not self aware probably

Ilona:
They are aware, for sure, and more than human as they are not lost in thought.


Anyway. Sense of I. Where in the body is it?

Paola:
There is pure wonderful instinct in them
It looks in the head behind the eyes


Ilona:
Is it I or is it some kind of feeling + label I?

Paola:
Feeling and label are so glued together that it is perceived like one but yes it is feeling and this feeling is assumed for I

Ilona:
For the rest of the day watch how mind labels everything. It's it's job and it happens on automatic.

Paola:
Yes I will pay attention to this mechanism. Thank you Ilona, I find it very good to speak with yoy
You
It feels good to be honest

Ilona:
We'll speak soon. Tomorrow. Today your task to notice that thought and feeling is not the same.
Feeling is before though and thought labels feeling. Also thought is charged with memory and triggers feeling. Play with that.
Cool about honesty.


Paola:
Ok sure, tomorrow I ll be available from 2 pm anythime

Ilona:
Sweet. Enjoy the rest of family fun :))
Xx

Paola:
Lots of gratitude. Enjoy your day too xxxxxxxx
And my cat says hello to you miaooooo

Ilona:
I am. Xxxxx thank you.

Paola:
Good morning Ilona ,
Can you let me know what time is best for you today?
xoxo

Ilona:
Hi Paola.  I'm here today and we can chat throughout the day.

So what was that you have noticed yesterday, give me a full report.

Paola:
hi Ilona,
first of all I notice constantly the mind or better to say the thoughts saying, "do I still feel like an I?," " is the I gone'?" " how should it feel?", Trevor said this, Ilona said that, Ciaran wrote this in his blos,Bill said this, endlessly trying to guess how it should feel.
There is definitely a feeling of being (energy in the body)+ a costant chattering on the mind trying to find out if I still feel like I

Also when the attention is focused on object there is an immediate label on them : chair, door, sky,glasses....the funny (well not so funny for me) thing is that 'I' constantly check if I am behaving like someone who has seen through the illusion. It seems I am stuck when I say to myself : what is the I? what it refers to? can it be the sum of this body+ this mind+ feeling experienced by this body-mind, experiences experienced through this body mind ( life expeiences)= I, Paola. Also a chair is a label for something pieces of wood put together in a certain way = char.Hope I make sense in this probably non-sense.I discvered that my brin is more logical and rational than I tought. in this moment: feelings of cold in the hands labelled " feelings of cold in the hands".

Ilona:
Do I still feel like an I? Stop right here. What is the first I?
Can I be gone if it never existed?
Can word I disappear from language once the illusion had been seen through?


Paola:
the first I is the usual sense of 'me' , the sense of someone who is experiences the world (life), the set of habits, preferences, usual emotons, etc, this body here, this face here...
no the I cannot go if it never existed in reality but the illusion of who I take myself to be can go or can be clearly seen without any doubts.
No of course the word I remains.
It is almost like if I cannot know reality without labels. Does the world exist if it is not described? How can I see a chair without the label chair? I go blank here...

Paola:
I meant with 'do I still feel like I?" do I still feel like I am this body, this face, this habits, thiese experiences etc ect


Ilona:
There is feeling of aliveness that has been labelled me and assumed for an entity 'me'. Feeling of aliveness is here with or without the label. Is it true?
Look at the things around you, do touched some of them, see if the sensations are real with or without labels.

Paola:
yes, I am with you. Aliveness in the body is here regarless the label we apply to it. Even though a mental image of this aliveness is created by the mind instantaneously like for example now I feel a kind of energy in the legs and even without watching at them, this energy is accompanied by a mental images of the legs ...and again sensation are real without doubts, for example now with my eyes closed I am touching the blanket on the bed and the description (mental images) of blanket and hands is so glued at the sensation that I will be never able to sense it without immediately automatically applied the mental images. Pure feelings or sensation without labels or mental images are almost impossible to isolate.Conclusion= Sensation are real without labels but the mind immediately ,in syncronicity labels them. Can you be aware of a sensation without mental images or label?

Ilona:
Close your eyes, hear sounds. Focus on breathing. Just relax for a bit and pay attention to sounds. Notice that there are many different sounds coming from many directions and see that there is awareness of them even if mind does not label them. You can shift focus to the legs, but sounds are still here, in the background. That is direct experience of sounds. No matter what mind is doing at the moment, sounds are still here, isn't it?

Paola:
ok yes. there is a direct experience of sounds. Tell you something: I have a tinnitus in my left ear. A few years ago when I heard it for the first time I was almost going crazy, it never stops, nothing you can do (it's like a whistle or better like some electricity noise). I became so anxious I thought my life has finished. It wasn't  then I did a special therapy with a little machine in my ear that simulates this noise after a few months my brain gave up, now even though the noise is constant, literally cannot stop, it is heard only when there are thpughts about it. I see now that many sounds are labelled but nevertheless the sound is perceived....sometimes noises wake you up in the morning but the mind labels them only after they woke you up.

Ilona:
Yes. So you see that there is experience first, then the labelling Right? How about smell. Find something that you can smell now and just indulge in the experience for 30 second. See if you can describe the smell for 30 s after that to yourself. Notice that experience and description is not the same.

Paola:
I took a face cream and I noticed that I couldn't describe it in any specific way rather than the general face cream, but the experience is not the decription. I can say 'intense', 'good' ' bad' but the experience of smelling is not describable really. yes Experience first even is only for some nano seconds, it is first.

Paola:
also when thee is some hunger, the experience is first and immediately after his appearance is described. It is most difficult with visual things though, what is the experience of pureseeing wihtout labels?

Ilona:
So look at the I thought again. Can I be found in reality? Can you take your finger and point to where I is?

Paola:
'I' as an entity it is not found, there is not a little man/woman inside the head. I never thought the I was an entity that can be isolated or seen . I always assumed that I was the totality of atoms, cells, brain that composed me. But see Ilona is here where I seem to be stuck, I am not able to perceive the I-thought. Or to isolate it. It is more like a boundle of everything... example the seeing, ok there is seeing. no one is doing it, the perception of sight exists, what, who is the preceiver? why there is the sensation that there is a perceiver? life is perceived. I can say eyes perceive objects. Stuck because I don't see the diffrence between a body+ feelings+perceptions+experiences and I. You say feelings are rea ok, thoughts ar real ok, body is real ok , world is real ok and the I is not real... I can say I is not real as an entity separated from all this but it remain all a bit mental. Sorry for the shortcomings....

Ilona:
Good good. What is I real as?

Paola:
don't understand the question well....

Ilona:
You say I is not real as entity. What is it real as? What is the form of I?

Paola:
I guess i, it is the perception of my mental and phisical activity , perception of body, perception of others,perception of thoughts, I is the perception of the world

Ilona:
No. I is just a word. Does perception need an I? Check it.

Paola:
perceptions need a brain. brain needs an organism to sustain it. organism needs an environment to sustain it. all is interrelated. but the brain is just a brain or my brain? ( this brain here seems to have had different perceptions throughout its life than my mother's one)and it seems to have formed a sense of individuality...is the I just an illusion of the brain? brain simulates an I.

Ilona:
When was brain given to you? How do you own it? Does brain need an owner to be able to function?

Paola:
right sure I see. brain is just a brain, no ownership. the point is that at certain moment in life, it is said 2 or 3 years is the brain itself that inact this simulation, like if the brain 'create. a mechanism of perception which wasn't there before... How can the brain see its own simulation as a simulation. Can the brain see that I is just its own simulation, that there are only perceptions and no real perceiver other than a brain.

Ilona:
Yes, no I I between perceiving and brain. It's an illusion.

Paola:
it's totally made up by brain. When a strong emotion is felt, there is no I feeling it then. for example sadness for the loss of someone, where the suffering comes from?

Ilona:
Suffering comes from conflicting beliefs the root of which is belief that there is I.


Paola:
yes I can see that this belief can add a lot of suffering based on 'why this happened to me, poor me, the victim'. Nevertheless the disapearance of a dear one, the death, generates suffering anyway. A romantic partner leaves you, generates suffering, with or without the belief of an I suffering.Meanwhile mind says ' see you understand very well that there is no I, it's just not possible, nowhere to be found'

Ilona:
There is no I. Is it true? Yes or no?

Paola:
There is no I, it' s just a projection, an idea, a thought.Now I understand that the brain simulates the existence of I/ me, but it is not a real entity,

Ilona:
Good, now look at paola. What is paola?

Paola:
Paola is a label. We use language to label for the sake of communication. Strange to say that Paola it is just a label
When I think Ilona I think of your image. Same with others names

Ilona:
Ok, can you look at paola as a character in her story. What drives the story? How does it evolve? Is there a director, actress, writer, manager?

Paola:
This word Paola also evokes a story in the mind
Must go for dinner ....

Paola:
The story just happens, no one drives it. No director, no actress, no writer, no manager, the story appears to happen in the mind, it is told by memories (thoughts), and Paola looks a character. This questions make 'me' feels a bit agitated, may be there is not much clarity. Trying to work it out but cannot grasp a definitive answer.

Ilona:
keep digging. story is not told by memories. story is about memories. and story is about character paola, only there is no actress. no control over the role. all it just happening. it's a story that is told by the thoughts and believed to be real. what else comes up. if there is a feeling of aggitation, it is a good sign that you are going to the right direction. keep following it.

Paola:
Story is about memories and the character Paola is part of these memories.Main character.if story is not real it means that past is not real, memories are not real,past is just a story told by thoughts, mind.what is real then? Only what is happening now? Only the present experience.? Just tears now watching my old mother, once strong and full of energy, going to bed. Lot of love and sadness because tomorrow I will leave knowing that she will not be healthier or stronger. Tenderness for her. Love is real and it Is painful now. There is a feeling of not-knowing. I will keep digging. Good night Ilona, I would like to have your clarity and your generosity.


Ilona:
You are getting this. Spot on. Only this is real. The rest is stories. It's when we belief that stories are solid and fixed is that create suffering. Nothing is fixed. All is movement. Flow. And there is nothing outside of flow.
Love is real. Tenderness kindness, sadness- these are what is experienced. The story about feelings is just story told in the mind. It's when we stop taking the story seriously and focus attention on what is right now the spaciousness appears. The beauty is perceived.

Good night sweet Paola.


Paola:
Good morning Ilona, I can see how the story exists only in thoughts and it is not solid, fixed.in fact where is it right now? What you wrote about the flow resonates, feeling a kind of spaciousness and relaxation. If I don't think about my eyes and my face there is only looking, sights. Last night some fear arose in the body, fear of disappearing .I will be travelling today and will have the possibility to write again only tonight. Italy is blessed with sun today. Much love.


Paola:
Hello Ilona, I am back home finally, I have been reading Gateless Crasher all day, very good, I am addicted now. Feeling a bit space out, my brain is working a lot. Always fearing to intellectualize.Are you still with me?

Ilona:
How was your trip?
Rest today, brain is doing its thing, don't fear intellectualising, let it run free. It's an internal process and it's a lot to take. We'll speak tomorrow.
Much love.

Paola:
The trip was nice, good to spend some time with my old parents, enter their world. I really want them to be well. Rest is a good idea. Thank you so much. We'll speak tomorrow. Sending love


Paola:
Hello Ilona, I am seeing how it's all mind stuff. The reality looks much simpler than all the chattering...but this is reality too, nothing get excluded, no? I mean the chattering in the 'mind' exists.The I is just made up, it's like an habitual pattern. Your very quoted sentence' thought doesn't think' it is still a bit confusing for me. Here it is why: mind it is not an entity, mind and thoughts are the same ok? when we say 'mind activity' it seems that there must be a verb....a thought it is the same than thinking - there is not a thought and a thinking, they are the same, -the only thing that is not in the equation is the thinker !so a thought thinks, a leg walks, a smile smiles, an eye sees. It is the content of the thought that doesn't think. The I is a content...am I going to far? Does a thought exists divided from thinking?
And in the end it is brain activity.
I red again our conversation, I am afraid to admit that I feel relieved  I can really see all this mind stuff. Not fear at all, the only one is that one to fool myself again but it doesn't looks like. I never had such a desire to recognise the truth like now. Back to work now.
Love. P


Ilona:
Great to hear from you.
What is mind? It's just a label. There is no mind. All there is is stream of thoughts that come one after the other. Like a train. Mind is nothing but label for thoughts happening. Thinking process is neurons firing and thoughts appearing.
So check again. Thought comes up and disappears. Can a thought think?

Paola:
Yes, mind is a label for the train of thoughts, this is clear.Thought comes up and disappears, this is clear too. Uncontrollable. Thought is just a thought, doesn't have a real power in a way, no, thought cannot think. Thank you for the clarification of the thinking process.
The thought and its content are the same thing?. Thought happens, I- thought happens, but there is not a substantiality, it doesn't refer to anything real...you cannot even pin it down and say ah..this is the I-thought! when one is sleeping there is no ' I- thought'. so this is another proof that the I is not real. 'I' is no more than a thought. A big thought that, constantly appears out of nothing...and this is how the character is 'built'? and this is how one gets to live life a lost in thoughts?
I had a good day. Feeling a bit lighter.
Sending love

Paola:
...I mean lost in thoughts about a character, a story.

Ilona:
story is part of what is. and it's gonna keep going. the difference here is seeing that it's not real.


Paola:
Sure, it's gonna keep going,story is not real because I is not real, but experiences are real. What do you mean exactly by 'story'? I went to Italy and came back yesterday is not a story...is something happened, isn't it?

Ilona:
everything that is in the mind is story. only what is experienced right now, right here, this moment is direct experience. all the rest is story. ­ ­

Paola:
Very good clarification. Very useful. Now the experience is that the I is a thought.. Thanks for being direct and coincise.

Ilona:
You are welcome.
let this settle in. do not over think it. just relax. mind is reorganising itself.  notice that there is no noticer, but noticing happening...

Paola:
everything that is in the mind is story. This moment is very fleeting, it is really a flow. Yes Ilona, I will let this settle in and relax, noticing happening..

Ilona:
beautiful ♥­ ­

Paola:
Good morning Ilona ,

I feel like a veil has lifted , actually is still lifting, in fact I cannot say that there was a precise moment of revelation, more like a process that it is still going on. There is definitely less compulsive behaviour and it is more natural to relax. Finally clear to notice how thoughts apply a label to everything , sensation, feelings. The sense of 'self' is more transparent. Talking with you and Bill, reading the forum, your blog and Gateless Gatecrasher has been and still is very good. I have seen more in the last month that in the previous 5 years of non dual readings and satsangs. I don't need to deny the story, I just know that it is a story. I don't need to deny the 'I', I just see that it is a word and it is used for communication, a label, mistakenly taken as an entity in and of itself. There is sense of being, aliveness, spaciousness, difficult to use words to describe it, but the feeling is simple and soothing.
All my love.

Ilona:
That is beautiful. Thank you. I'm so delighted that the veil is lifting. Yes, it's a process, it's not just one moment, but all that is happening. And it will keep revealing more and more.
:)) I sense from your letter that you are relaxing.
Good news.

Ilona:
Can you go through these questions

1) Is there a 'me', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works.

3) How does it feel to see this?

4) How would you describe it to somebody who has never heard about this illusion.

5) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

So I see where you are.
Love!

Paola:
Yes Ilona I can and will get back you you later or tomorrow morning. Much love

Paola:
1)Is there a 'me', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

No me/I/self in any shape or form, and never was. There was the belief in a'me', the 'me' was kind of taken for granted because was never questioned, was never seen for what it really is: a word, a thought that is automatically applied to experience. It was never seen that the 'I' was made up by thoughts.

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works.

The illusion consists in the fact that the I is assumed to be an entity, an autonomous separate entity that goes through life. Like if it resides inside the body and it has control over what is happening.
I don't know exactly when it starts, but probably at a very young age, at a certain point instead of there is only what's happening, a story about 'me' starts, the I-thought appears.
The child starts to take herself like an I-entity when she begins to realise that people around her and society in general are pointing at her and treating her like a separate entity, the trick of the language adds a lot in the creation of apparent separation. In the language there is always subject+verb+object.
The belief in an I-entity create a separation, because of that life appears to be something one must always deal with. 'What is' is never enough because the belief in a separate I always induces a sense of lacking and therefore striving to obtain what is apparently lacking .Life is not seen already full.

3)How does it feel to see this?

Well, there is relief, there is no longer that sense of urgency or lack, the thoughts continue to arise about everything, but they are not taken so damn seriously, in fact they are much easily realised (by themselves).
I see that I can relax in the moment. Especially when walking I am in awe sometimes, all around is so full, so much beautiful than before. It looks like my perception has embellished.
There never was a feeling of loneliness in these last days. I guess there will be more to see in time but for now this is how it feels.

4)How would you describe it to somebody who has never heard about this illusion.

I would probably ask him to be open minded for a moment first. Like for example, let's pretend that we don't know anything and let's observe together what is happening. Let's start first with what is real, what is perceivable by senses...Let's see now what is the 'I', where is it? What does it mean my/mine etc. I would probably show him the video by Marcus du Sautoy on free will. (It also depends very much on how open the person is).


5)What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

The chat with you was very intense for me and it made me see a lot, especially to really see how thoughts label experience almost immediately, and the I label was attaching to almost every experience. I finally had a clear vision about thoughts separate from feelings, and how stories are made up by thoughts. Also I didn't want to give up, really felt it was 'vital' to know the truth about it.



Ilona:
I can see that you are speaking from your own experience and that seeing has happened. I'm so glad :))) delighted.
I will take some time to readjust and rebalance. But what has been seen can not be unseen. So life will be same, but feeling about it will be different. Old patterns will start dropping.

Can I put our conversation on my blog? With or without your name. It will be helpful for others. What do you think?

Lots of love!


Paola:
Dear Ilona, I love your blog, it is really very helpful and you can put our conversation with my name.I am totally grateful and feel very lucky to have met you. I will continue to read your blog and the forum. BTW I like Alan Watts too a lot.
Sending love

There Is No Me, There Is No You

Jon:
Hello. I have been reading the "Gateless Gatecrashers", and find it very beneficial and motivating. I am humbled by your desire and efforts to help others.

On an intellectual level, I fully understand there is no "I"; this is just a label applied to the group of aggregates that I see in the mirror. On an experiential level, I have searched and not been able to find "I".

Having said that, I just took a shower. I stood under the shower head, and the warm water flowed onto my back and it felt wonderful. As it did, I thought to myself "who is feeling this wonderful feeling?" As I said before, on an intellectual level, I know there is no "I". But, there is something feeling the feeling, or else the feeling would not register. I am missing something. Or, I am fighting something.

If you have time, I would love to hear your thoughts and receive any help you are willing to give.

Thank you.

Ilona:
Hi jon.

Thanks for reaching out :)
There is this assumption that there is a who. There isn't. When shower is on, next time, notice, it's only experience happening. See- the experience, experienced and experiencer is one! No gap. No who in there. Just feel it.

I is a label that is part of language for communication purposes only. In the feeling there is no I. It's impersonal. Test it. With anything.

Hear sound and see- sound is being heard. Smell something and see there is no smeller, just action/ perception + label "I smell".

You won't find an I because there is no I. Have a look. Literally.

Write what you've got.

Much love.

Jon:
I was in the shower, and you are right. It is feeling, it is experience. There is no feeler, though. Just feeling.

The same as a spot on my back that is sore. "I'm in pain" was what I thought, but as I dig deeper into this there is no "I", just the feeling that is labelled pain. Just a feeling, no feeler. I can even dismiss the label of pain and see the feeling only, and its affects are not as harsh as before.

OK. I feel like I'm having a battle. I fully understand no "I" intellectually - I have for almost two years now. This was the first small victory and has allowed me to build to the point of today. Well, build to the point of yesterday - you gave me another victory with the shower analysis and upon looking at what you said which was proven true. Thank you!

However, the battle is not over as the next thing my imaginary ego throws at me is "who turned on the shower". If there is no who - as has been proven with the feeling of the warm water from the shower head - how did the shower get turned on? How does a door get opened?

I hope these questions are not annoying you. I know this is "I" clinging to the last bits of the battle, and I feel that I am so close. Many thanks for your time and your help. I am most appreciative.


Ilona:
Hi Jon.

Yes, there is no feeler.
Same way there is no doer.

Any action happening is experienced as its happening then thoughts come up and claim doership.

Lift your left hand right up now- above your head.

Watch it as it is happening.
Is there a doer in that? How did it lift up? Does is need to be the doer- I - for it to happen?


If you are around small babies or animals, how do they operate? Is there a doer inside them? Why would an adult human be different. Belief in doer does not affect the action itself.


Is it you doing walking or walking is happening? Test it. Thoughts come up about zillions of things but none of them are required for walking.

Watch closely every action and see if it's true.

Let me know what comes up.


Jon:
"Watch closely every action and see if it's true. Let me know what comes up."

I am, I will. And I will write and email back to you my findings. One question - instead of approaching this from what doesn't exist "me, I, you", can I approach this from what does exist? Granted, I fully realise that I am still labelling it - but is it just consciousness, or flow (as I see it called)?

Many thanks and much love to you.

Ilona:
Yes, approach from what is, what is obvious. :))

Jon:
You are amazing! Well, if there was a you - but the sentiment hopefully isn't lost!

There is no doer. No doer making salad. No doer walking up the stairs. No doer driving the car. Just making, just walking, just driving. More importantly, and something I never thought to look at before though it is obvious, there is no doer in "others" - no "I" in others, no "them". Just thoughts and actions. The person who was rude to me today wasn't "him" - there was just thought, just action. Hard to stay mad at "someone" that doesn't exist.

OK, thoughts come up and "I" try to cling to them, to own them. But there is no ownership, there is no me, there is no I. Only thoughts. Only walking. Brilliant.

Still, a question. Where does a thought or action originate? For instance, I'm in the shower and it is time to apply shampoo - where does that come from, because I know there is no me to think and decide that. Is it as simple as saying the brain is part of the body like the arm, and the thought/action to shampoo comes from the brain? Likewise, the person that honked at me today because I didn't immediately go when the light turned green. Where did the thought and action to honk originate? That brain? As, there is no "him".

This is exciting.

Much appreciation and love.

Ilona:
Ahahaha! You are seeing it! Right there :)

Good question- where does the impulse for action come from? It's all a bit like an itch and a scratch, human organic computer is reacting to environment and the choice is made spontaneously. Brain is such an amazing piece of equipment.

You may find this video helpful especially the last 6 minutes. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Biv_8xjj8E&feature=youtube_gdata_player

It's one hour long but very interesting. :)
Watch it.

Much love!
And I'm delighted to see that you are crossing the gate nice and easy.

Jon:
I will watch that video today, thank you!

I had an epiphany - finally realised internally that thoughts arise and I label them as "I thought this", "I made this happen"...no matter how many times you read that is really what is happening and understand it intellectually (as I have for a long time), until you realise it internally you are just chasing the wind. We all think "we think", and that we make this stuff happen. When in reality it is simple - it happens, and then the label "I did it" is applied afterwards but we are conned and conditioned to thinking that it was there before...and we did it (of course, we don't exist).

It makes perfect sense to me, but I don't know if I am writing it clearly enough for you to understand what I am saying?

One question haunts me - and the answer may be simply "it doesn't matter". The question is - why was the self created? And how was it created? The brain? Evolution? I can't shake the feeling that I want to know this, even though it is not necessary to my liberation so to speak. What are your thoughts on the origins, and on why it happened to begin with?

Much love and appreciation.

Jon:
Just to clarify my last email to you, I asked you " One question haunts me - and the answer may be simply "it doesn't matter". The question is - why was the self created? And how was it created? The brain? Evolution? I can't shake the feeling that I want to know this, even though it is not necessary to my liberation so to speak. What are your thoughts on the origins, and on why it happened to begin with?"

When I say "why was the self created", I know there is no self. What I mean is why did that thought "I" ever arise in the first place? Why, how. Again...evolution, the brain, or simply it doesn't matter? But why did it happen, how did it happen...why and how did it arise in what we label "humans". Just curious of your "thoughts" on the matter.

Thanks!


Ilona:
Dear jon. I'm delighted to hear about you inner seeing of the truth of no self.
It must be such a relief.

How 'self' gets created? Mostly because of the language. When we learn to speak we say I and we get carried away with it.

You may read my blog on the language thing. http://markedeternal.blogspot.com/2012/01/trick-of-language.html?m=1

Also you will find some answers in the video. :)

Sending love.
We'll speak tomorrow.

Jon:
Wonderful video! I found "me" talking to Marcus the last 10 minutes, saying there is no you thinking...only thinking!!! There is no you deciding...only deciding!!!

Oddly enough, I read this comment a few days ago on a topic not related to liberation, but never more pertinent and spot on:

"Ever thought about how you come to have thoughts? In order to have a thought a slew of neurons have to fire in your brain. But you can't control which ones fire, because in order to do that you'd have to think about it and make a plan. But you can't do that without your neurons firing... It would seem that your neurons are doing their own thing, firing away like mad, and the end result is you... thinking your in control."

I thought this (or some variant of this in your own words) could help you with future people seeking liberation.

Ilona, I can't express my gratitude enough. Thank you for your efforts, your caring, your friendship.


I've seen it mentioned several times that there is "clean up work" and more to do after you have passed through the gate that really isn't there. Can you elaborate on that?


Ilona:
The neuron thing is great! There is another good video on neurons that I can recommend- athene's theory of everything. Check it out on YouTube. I loved it.

There is a fb aftercare group, do you have an account?

But before I can invite you there we have a confirmation process where other my friends at LU check if all went trough completely.

I'll ask you to answer few questions and I'll put our conversation on my blog, with or without your name, up to you. Then once you get confirmed I'll invite you to unleashed :)




So here are the questions :
1) Is there a 'me', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?
2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works.
3) How does it feel to see this?
4) How would you describe it to somebody who has never heard about this illusion.
5) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

Looking forward to read your answers.

Much love.

Jon:
Wonderful! Here are the answers:


1.) There is no real me. There are thoughts, but thoughts cannot think. There is no "I" or "me" having these thoughts...just thoughts. There is no me walking or showering...just walking, just showering. There never has been a me. There is a body with its associated parts, but no owner of that body.


2.) The idea of a separate self is attached to thoughts as a component or label. For example, the hand is raised - in conjunction with my brain taking in stimuli and issuing the thought to raise the hand, there is a label of "my" put on the thought so it appears "I" am raising my hand. When in actuality, there is only raising...no "me" raising. This applies to everything - feeling, talking, walking, etc. In reality, everything just is. I am not a "me" in the universe, I am the universe.


3.) It is interesting to see this. I have known it intellectually for quite a while, but the attachment to "me" wanting to be a good person, a successful person prevented me from actually internalising and discovering it beyond just the intellectual level. It is liberating to finally be there.


4.) The tree does not have an owner that helps it tree. The bush does not have an owner that helps it bush. Everything just is, just does. Likewise, we don't have an owner that helps us live - there is just living. We have, however, created an illusion that there is an owner - a "me", an "I". But if you search for this "I", you cannot find it. What is "I"? Is it your hand, your arm, your brain? Point to it? You can't because it is none of those things. Is it a combination of all of those components? How can a combination of things that aren't "I" be "I"? They cannot. "I" is an illusion. "I" don't think - thoughts happen, and after they happen there is a label of "I" or "me" attached to them.


And, I would probably elaborate using the neuron explanation from my last email. :)


5.) When you and I discussed the warm water, and the feeling of the warm water on the skin. It prompted me to look deeper. When I had the epiphany that this applies to everyone, not just me - and the person who was rude to me was not a "he" at all. There was no separate "he" that was rude. There is no me, there is no you. Only being, only doing. The entire process of you answering my questions and having me investigate for myself.


Thank you! Let me know if you want more details or explanation, and where "I" go from here. And, you are free to use my first name, Jon, or J.D. which is what "I" am often referred to as.

For Michelle A Click Happened While Listening Radio Interview

I loved working with Michelle, she is such a sweet girl and amazingly all became clear for her while listening my recent radio show on Wizard's radio. Thank you John Troy and Trip :)

( you can find the recording on LU website Audio page )

Michelle:
My story is mostly just dealing with depression. For a long time, I didn't believe anyone would be able to help me. And no one did. But I've read some of your amazing dialogues with people on Marked Eternal. I'd appreciate very much if you would talk with me.

Ilona:
Thank you for stepping in, Michelle. It is my pleasure to help you to resolve this. All that you need to do is answer some precise questions and get back to me at least once a day, stick to the process till the end and be completely honest, like you never were before.

So what do you expect from this conversation?
How do you imagine it will change your life?
What do you want to gain from this?
Answer in full, when ready.

By the way,what country are you in, I'm in uk, it helps to know the time difference.

Michelle:
Thank you, Ilona.

I expect this conversation to make me look at truth that I haven't seen.
I imagine I won't believe in suffering anymore, which will allow more happiness to be experienced.
I want to gain freedom from my present, difficult mental consciousness of self and world.

USA, EST - It's Sunday, 11:00 a.m. Grateful this is happening. ♥

Ilona:
Great, but let's leave your expectations right here for a while and take a look with fresh eyes.

Tell me precisely what feeling comes up, where in the body, when you let this thought in :
There is no separate self at all in reality, no doer, no thinker, no watcher, no observer, no experiencer. None as in zero.

Let's see where you are at.

Much love.

Michelle:
I feel relief with that thought. (I took it to sleep with me last night and it was there when I woke up, too. I like it.)

I feel energetic movement inside my stomach area, just above my belly button. Slight nausea with it. (I feel that frequently in meditation, too. A pulling upward sensation, with some nausea.)

I don't notice emotions. Movement in the head region, pressure there, around my eyes. Warmth in the heart region twice so far.

Ilona:
thank you for answer, great, we can move forwards. anytime there is a bit of fear or frustration coming up, just let me know, we will work through it. so far it seems that you are open and ready.

soooo....

where do the thoughts come from?
can they be controlled?
can a thought be stopped in a middle?
is there a thinker?

please answer in full.

Michelle:
Thank you, Ilona. I will let you know if I feel anything uncomfortable or dark.

Where do thoughts come from?

It seems like they appear in the center, coming up from somewhere, I can't see where. Whereas reading your words or repeating them is more at the top of my head. I can feel that, it's more forced, like an exertion. (Unclear thinking has been a problem here for some time, by the way.) I noticed when I was looking for thought, a soft moving of air perception, like moving water or air, opening out, flowing. I couldn't see anything in there.

Can they be controlled?

No. They don't obey commands or requests, and they move through any imagined or invented obstruction or suppression techniques I've tried.

Can a thought be stopped in a middle?

I don't know. Looking for a middle of a thought, to try to stop it. Funny trying to find the "middle" of one. No, it seems like the whole thought gets through. Attention can be turned away in the middle of thoughts about a subject, but I don't know what happens to the thought(s) after that. My meditation practice includes looking away from thoughts. So I've been working with that.

Is there a thinker?

A thinker who makes the thoughts or thinks them out? I don't see one. There does seem to be something that pays attention to and gets involved with thoughts. Life in me does that. And then it's the sufferer. That's the only thinker that I know of. I don't know what thinks the thoughts or doles them out before they appear to me.

Ilona, I sat with each of your questions and asked them of myself and waited for looked answers. I know I didn't get any truly clear or certain answers. I really don't know anything. I hope these will be okay.

Ilona:
Good good, but I need you look deeper. Deeper than that. Where do thoughts come from? Just wait for next thought and catch it right as it appears.
You say that there is a sufferer from which thoughts appear. Isn't that just another thought?

There is a sufferer here
There is no sufferer here

^ both are equally just thoughts.

Can you tell if thoughts appear on automatic or do you actually need to do something to make them come?
Do thoughts control body? Or are they just labelling what body does?

Spend some time watching the thoughts with curiosity and write answers when ready.


Thank you!

Michelle:
Thank you, Ilona.

What I meant to say was that a sufferer seems to appear here from following or going along with thoughts. It seems to result in confusion and suffering here. But I can apply what you said to that, too. Yes, both are equally just thoughts. "There is a sufferer here. There is no sufferer here."

...[I} need you to look deeper. Deeper than that. Where do thoughts come from?

I went to work today and have been doing my best to look deeper all day. It's like looking into dense fog, asking the question and trying to see or notice where thoughts come from. They appear out of nowhere. There are image thoughts and word thoughts. The word thoughts narrate or judge appearances or label them. I noticed the labelling is automatic and mostly instantaneous. I don't have to do anything for that to happen. The labelling is frequently very simple, mostly just the colour or the name of the object. The image thoughts seem to trigger word thoughts about the image.

It does seem that I can choose what I want to think about. For instance, I'm going to think about dogs right now and name a bunch of different breeds of dogs. I'm not really going to name them. It's just an example. Or types of flowers. And go through the names of flowers I remember. Or I can think the word "I" and look and see where it comes from. I feel that thought "I" in my heart region pretty strongly. I don't know if drawing from memory is considered thinking. Sometimes a poem memorised many years ago will pop up in its entirety. Is a memory considered a thought? They come out of nowhere, too.

Thoughts label what the body does both as the body is doing it, and before the body does it. A thought appears, "I'm hungry." Eventually, the body goes and eats. It labels the shampoo, soap, etc. in the shower. Each thing it is doing. Or it labels it first and then does it. Often it says "I have to" or "I gotta" do this or that. Sometimes the action follows, sometimes "I have to" or "I gotta" isn't followed by action of the body. Like laundry that isn't done, even though the thought appears to do it or that it should be done.

I feel extra cloudy today. It all seems to congregate in my head/mind, and chest area, so there's not much room for thinking. Except for an occasional break, this has been my usual state for years now. I realise that's just a thought, too. A descriptive one of the experience here.

I'll keep LOOKING. Any suggestions about where exactly or how I'm to be looking?

Thank you,

Ilona:
Great, thank you.

You say that you can choose what to think about. It's also just a thought- I can choose what to think about.. Take a look. It's all just thoughts.
And with the hunger thing- first there is a feeling in the body then thoughts pops up. Take a closer look here too.

Ok, next step we examine the labels themselves. Notice that thoughts point to things that are actually here and also things that aren't here- memories, future, imaginary stuff, fantasies. For the mind there is no difference. But today I want you to look what thoughts point to real things and what to imaginary. Thoughts are either pointing to real or other thoughts about unreal.

Real is that which can be sensed and do not disappear if you stop believing in it.
Like thought keyboard. It's points to the thing that is being felt as you type.
Thought fairy points to a story about fairy which unfolds as thought train about it.

What does thought 'me' point to?
What does thought 'I' point to?

Michelle:
Hi, Ilona. That's true about hunger. Definitely notice that. Yes, it is all just thoughts.

There were a lot of thoughts today. When I woke up fresh and read your message one of the first things I noticed was a strong aversion to what you described as real. The things at hand, the keyboard, the cup, the clothing. Things. Thoughts came up like: I don't like them. I don't want them. they're nothing. They don't mean anything. I felt sad about trying to understand, see, or know these things as reality. I did feel some of the edges of the sadness disintegrating as I continued to accept the exercise. You know, that this is what is needed here as part of this process.

Then there were remembering thoughts. And a question: They don't mean anything, compared to what?

It was very busy at work today, a co-worker was out sick yesterday and today, so there wasn't a lot of time to practise distinguishing between the different kinds of thoughts. There was time in the morning before work and during an hour lunch break, which was devoted to this. Thoughts pointing to past, tomorrow, future, right now, wishes. They were all just thoughts, yes.

Last night, I used your suggestions (for dealing with fear and other unpleasant feelings) that I found in other dialogues on Marked Eternal on the fog I mentioned. Is that alright? I know you didn't say to do that, but I just wanted to be clearer for this process. Some things happened, totally subjective, internal, more feeling experiences than thoughts. Weird, really. I wouldn't say it was completely successful, but after the come closer, thank you, share your wisdom, I asked what it was protecting me from. This is what came up: Reality.

I actually did feel clearer today, at least until a staff meeting at the end of the day which was irritating for me. That should fade out soon.

I'm going out for dinner in a little while and will continue practising distinguishing between what different thoughts point to.

As far as the thought me, what it points to, I initially noticed many memory thoughts pointing to what isn't here now, past images about "me", this body appearing as me in the world now, and further inward a lot of nothing. I enjoyed looking at the endless nothing it points to more than the thoughts. The thought "I" points to my heart centre. It feels more in front of where the "me" thought points to, which is more inward. I know that sounds strange.

I wanted to make sure to write this response now, in case I'm very tired and fall asleep later. Thank you, again, Ilona. Good-night. ♥

Ilona:
Thank you for answer. Yes you can read some other conversations, it may be helpful, no problem here, as long as you keep looking for yourself and not taking anything in as a new belief.

Explore the meaning. Does anything mean anything?
What does table mean? Or what does flower mean? How is meaning assigned to things? What is the influence of memory over that?

Does life mean anything? Does it have to?
Dig here for a bit.

Much love.

Michelle:
Okay, thanks. Just getting this message after work. Used yesterday's assignment today and while I sat in the car for about an hour after driving home from work. Tired. Will dig and look with these new instructions. Thank you for love.

Ilona:
write when you ready, michelle.
sending lots of love your way.

Michelle:
Hi Ilona,

"Does anything mean anything?" No.

Thoughts appear about function (what a thing can be used for), like a table can be used to put other things on top of, to sit at to eat food. A flower can be looked at, seen as pretty, used for decoration, make perfume, etc. But those are just thoughts that don't mean anything.

Meaning is what seems to light something up to attract appreciation. I remember thinking and believing the meaning of life was love. Love = enjoyment, happiness, keen interest, fascination, delight. Memory doesn't seem to have any influence on assigning meaning, other than remembering life being lit up so that present thoughts can compare it to not being lit up. Remembering light in the dark. Memory is useless. Not even comforting.

I don't want to imply that there hasn't been light here since the major darkness happened, a sunrise on the inside, nothing to do with outside, appeared a few times. But it seemed so brief each time. So I'm writing about darkness because I know that better right now and for the most part. The meaning assigner seems to be broken here. No power to light anything up to be appreciated. Like a light bulb that is blown out from too much electric current. Everything becomes dark. Empty of meaning.

Does life mean anything. No.
Does it have to? No, because it doesn't. And no, if it doesn't.

The sense of separate self, which is a lie, is what causes suffering. This is becoming more pronounced and clear. Keeping to truth, that there is no self in reality, chasing "I" thoughts down, "Who said that, is that a self?" to look at them and watch them disintegrate. Liking that, kind of funny. :) Decent day.

Thank you, Ilona. ♥

Ilona:
You are most welcome, dear Michelle.

The sense if separate self is a lie, it's just an innocent misunderstanding that has been programmed into us since we learnt to speak.

The sense of being/ aliveness + label 'this is me' is what created the illusion. Seeing that label itself is not a real entity to which life happens, breaks the spell.

If you get a chance to sit in a park for half an hour and simply notice the totality of movement that includes everything around the body and the body itself, observe the naturalness.. Try to find that line which separates you from everything else perceived. Close your eyes and test if you can know where are the limits of the body, what size and shape it is, where is the centre.

Will be waiting for your answer.
Much love.

Michelle:
Hi Ilona,

Nothing happened at the park. No noticeable shift or difference in perception. The temperature was very cold, and it was difficult to relax 30 minutes on the cold metal bench. Shivering happened, even with coat, gloves and hat. Read your message, which was printed to bring along. Looked at everything around, the totality of movement as best as possible, children, sky, trees, birds--ducks and seagulls. Remembered your word "naturalness" and looked to see it everywhere. Asked the labeller why it was labelling things, looked without labels, too. Looked inward and around with eyes closed, feeling for edges of the body. Could feel the jeans freezing against the legs and where that ended. Not very clearly defined edges elsewhere. Didn't notice a centre of the totality, but there seemed to be warmth in the mid-section of where the body appears which became a focal point and seemed to allow the length of time needed for the exercise. Now, at home, the same mid-section feels cooler. I had a stomachache earlier in the day, which went away after about an hour, and headache---and still felt the headache pretty strongly at the park. Noticed where the intense pressure and clogged fullness of that seems to be and seems to end. (Lots of headaches here for many years, by the way. Pain reliever is rarely used, though, because they don't seem to be typical headaches. Nothing abnormal showed up in head/brain scans, either.)

Is questioning the "I" thought/labeller, just the "I" thought/labeller questioning itself? Can the "I" thought (thoughts appearing in general) operate in favour of truth?

Looking, no matter what. ♥

Ilona:
Thank for your answer dear Michelle.

Two things popped out from it.
1. You have been expecting for something to happen. Nothing is going to happen. The shift is so subtle, that you won't even notice it. Only when looking back you may see later that it happened. So don't worry and don't expect a sudden insight, a sonic boom or cosmic download. ( would be nice ) Relax about the shift. it's already happening as a whole process. Notice that.

2. You say I thought/ labeller.
Look closer here. There is no labeller. But labelling process that is on automatic as a function of the mind.
I thought is not a labeller. I is a label itself. Can a thought be a labeller?
I see, I hear, I feel is how action is labelled. I is part of a 2 word label, that's all. Only because this is how grammar is constructed.

I type- typing is happening - does this action change if it's labelled with or without I?

Great work! And sorry about the cold in the park :) You are very close now.

Michelle:
Hi Ilona,

That's true, I was looking forward to seeing some sort of unification or colour intensification at the scene at the park. :)

"I type- typing is happening - does this action change if it's labelled with or without I?" No, it's the same action happening, regardless of label.

You noticed my aversion to typing I, me, and mine?

"Can a thought be a labeller?" No.

After I read your message this morning, "I" got up and sat over by the window and the thought appeared: "I can't wait to feel grateful." Just then, "I" felt an energy burst at the nape of "my" neck, and a more relaxed feeling.

I noticed my reactions to people are somewhat different today. Less concern, stress, and irritation about how to respond in a meaningful way when I honestly don't perceive any meaning. It's helpful to know that nothing, least of all an "I" that doesn't exist, is in control of what is experienced, thought, or felt here. There is less guilt and frustration about not being able to control it.

I am appreciating this truth with you, Ilona. Thank you. ♥

Ilona:
I feel very happy and smiling now once I read your message. :))

Looks like you ate stepping through nicely.
Tell me what is that 'I' that you referring to now, when you use it?
Is there a separate entity 'me' at all in real life, in any shape or form? Was there ever?

Sending love!
:)

Michelle:
Dear Ilona,

Today was a lot more difficult than yesterday. Early on, there was some spaciousness, which confirmed nothingness here. But later in the day, there was a great big blob of uncomfortableness, right where the upper body and head here appear to be, covering and rendering the mental faculties almost inoperable. It's an impersonal blob, they always are. It has nothing to do with what is going on in the story here. For the most part, it is the story, since functioning is so difficult with it.

This happens so frequently here. Thousands of times over the last ten years. So today, I did my best to remember the truth that there is no me, no separate self at all in reality. There is no me, how can nothingness suffer anything? Several times, I used your method for fear. I wasn't able to look behind or up under it. It is felt more in the frontal area here, so when you say look behind it, do you mean inward or outward? I wound up just looking straight down into it, saying, "Is there a self there in nothingness? It seemed to cut it by a third. Will get back to it after writing this.

Do you have any suggestions?

What is struggling, thinking something can be done about this? Nothing is doing that?

"I" is whatever is typing this. Nothing feeling something it's not enjoying.

Intellectually, I've learnt the answer with you. No, there is no separate me at all in real life, in any shape or form. And there never was. But I don't have a liberated view of the mind and it's workings and the character Michelle in the story, or a sense of humour about it.

I'm sorry that I'm definitely not seeing "it" clearly. Not feeling liberation today.

Still looking, no matter what. Thank you, Ilona. ♥

Ilona:

Look at the blob as a cloud. It passes away, regardless if you mentally push it, try to modificate it, will it away, accept and look behind, blob rises and fades. Can you just let it be here when it comes? You can ask the blob, what is it that he wants to tell you, speak to it. And don't try to get rid of it. Instead thank it for coming and listen to it's message.

See how that turns out.
The goal here is not be free from blob, but experience the blob without judgement. Then it looses power over you can not bother anymore.

How is it going today, dear?


Sending love.

Michelle:
Dear Ilona,

I felt a lot of support through today, at work and after. Thank you so much for help with this. It moved more centre, the feeling here was more centred...not so out of alignment, so to speak. I said thank you for coming and listened a lot but it didn't say anything yet. Accepting, listening...

Happy Valentine's Day, Ilona. I appreciate you, this, so much. xo ♥

Ilona:
glad to hear that there is some acceptance and feeling of being more centred. i like to approach feelings and emotions as if they were my friends that come for a visit. it makes it easier to release. how is it going today?
much love.

Michelle:
Hi Ilona,

The pattern for many years has been that it seems to take about three days for each blob "friend" to clear and the end of it is noticed as cool, peace energy moving in the forehead area where the brain/usual mental faculties used to seem to be. Sometimes there is barely a break in between before the next blob fuses in. It's perceived differently from emotions and feelings that arise in the personal story of Michelle. And it's much harder for blobs to clear if there are personal upsetments, as the feeling of the two mixing is far worse. Hard to explain. And it doesn't really matter, because...

While still in the midst of clearing here, something happened last night. About one or two a.m., I went to bed listening to your December radio interview with John Troy. Toward the end of the hour, something extremely clear and simple that you said made me look up to the left at an "I thought" that was appearing there, and there was a click. Literally, a click sound. It clicked off and it was quieter here.


This is what you said that made me look: "There is this thought I and once you see that I is just a thought, you see that thought itself does not think."


I've never been much into sports and don't watch football, but a good example would be if the volume of the sportscaster's voice was suddenly clicked off while watching a football game on TV, you could quietly watch the action of the game without the loud, overpowering voice and interpretation.

So the option is available to just look. And the option is available to delve into thoughts/memories, because they are still there. Here, it's like the thoughts are muffled under a pillow. That's why it's quiet.

Thoughts of truth (There is no separate self in reality at all, no me, etc.) make space here. Too many regular thoughts still feel confusing and uncomfortable.

Thank you for truth and love, Ilona. ♥ Valentine's Day. :)

Ilona:
oh wow. that is a very interesting turn. :)
how is it feeling today? does thought I still feels like a thinker or is it seen just as another thought? please write more about it.

sending lots of love.

Michelle:
Hi Ilona,

Definitely, the thought I is just another thought...under the pillow. It can come up to appear to speculate and entertain with other thoughts, memory thoughts, and try to put things together for "understanding" about the story of Michelle, to solve the mystery of how strangely reality expresses as her, but it doesn't know anything. Meanwhile, there is a falling in love with nothing here--identifying with nothing, trusting in nothing, seeing and feeling that nothing is best, desire to see and know nothing where every false sense of self is felt or perceived.

Thank you, again, Ilona...this has been the best help. xo ♥

Ilona:

awesome...

all identity is assumed. identifying with nothing is also identifying, that is not the end... there is no you at all as in zero, you don't exist as nothing. nothing is, but it's not you. can you take this next step and see if it's true? everything/ nothing is, but does any of it require a 'me'?

sending lots of love...

Michelle:
Hi Ilona,

Is zero less than nothing? No-thing feels true, because it feels better and easier. More so yesterday than today, because doubt thoughts today. Did I use an inadequate word in the description? I looked it up to see:

Nothing - 1. Not any thing; not any being or existence; a word that denies the existence of any thing; non-entity; opposed to something. The world was created from nothing.

Everything does not require a me. Nothing does not require a me.

After looking all day, I haven't noticed a next step to take that is true or truer or feels better. (Headache and more cloudy today.)

Thank you. ♥

Ilona:
See if you can simply relax. This may take some time to settle. There is nothing 'you' can do to see the truth of it. And focus on truth, not on what feels better. Just relax and keep an eye on the obvious.

Thoughts of doubt are also just thoughts. Examine the mechanism
Itself. How does it work, what is behind, is there a who to which doubt belongs to.

Take it easy today. Rest.


Sending love.

Michelle:
Thank you, Ilona, that's a good idea. My coworker was out again, so it was very busy today, but I have a few days now to relax. Today was good, though.

I just want to clarify here, in case anyone reads this, that the click of liberation that I wrote about on February 14th was just one click. Reading it now, it looks like I wrote that there was a click and then it clicked off. No, it was just one click, like a camera click, when I looked at an "I thought" with suspicion and knowledge of the truth that I had just heard you say. It was so clear and instant.

I have no doubt about this, it already happened. Especially here, I'd expect it to take time to settle. Every slight or certain improvement and decrease in discomfort is keenly noticed and deeply appreciated.

Thank you, Ilona. Goodnight. ♥

Ilona:
Thank you, Michelle :) my heart fills with warm feelings as I read your message.

Looks like you are ready for the final questions :) so we both see clearly where you are

1. When you say I where does word I point to?
2. Is there a self at all in real life in any shape or form? Was there ever?
3. How and when this illusion gets created and how it sustains itself?

Please answer when you ready.

Sending lots of love.

Michelle:
Hi Ilona,

1. It points to another thought, that I is a thought.
2. No. No.
3. We're introduced into it at birth and conditioned through childhood to identify with a body/mind/thought as self, and the illusion sustains itself with an "I" mechanism/virus in the mind that keeps us seemingly magnetised, leashed, imprisoned, or encapsulated in the mind, which is a false sense of self and separation and the cause of suffering.

Thank you. ♥

Ilona:
Sweet!

How does it feel to be liberated from this illusion?
How would you explain about it to a friend who never heard about it before?


Sending love...

Michelle:
Hi Ilona,

I was just talking with a friend about this last night. It's true, the life and story are the same and whatever seemed to be happening before is still happening, but it's better in several ways. First and most important here is that the experience of suffering is different with the truth of no self. It's the answer I was looking for. 

The second is that the feeling of external spiritual seeking and needing something is gone. For instance, I can watch videos of Adyashanti and Mooji and not feel they have something I don't, and I can appreciate the expressions on their faces when they talk about no-self because I understand what they are talking about. 

The third is kind of funny because I've never been much into affirmations, but I've noticed that I can say all kinds of good things about Michelle, a million different things if I want to, even if they aren't apparently true in the story, and there is nothing contradicting what I said or pulling up thought evidence to the contrary. The words are just spoken and nothing touches them. This would be appreciated by anyone who has ever read self-help books and tried to use the suggested positive affirmations, to absolutely no avail. Nothing is saying anything negative about Michelle here.

I would tell my friend that there is a very simple way to feel better and live easier. I would share some of the above, and suggest they read your book or some of the dialogues on this website to see for themselves if they would be interested.

I have a lot to be grateful for, Ilona. Thank you so much. xo ♥

Ilona:
I'm so happy to see that you are through. :)))
Thank you for engaging into this and thank you for diving right in. Lots of love and appreciation here.

I recommend to join our Facebook group, as question and doubts may rise it helps to clear and stabilise. Everyone in that group has seen the same as you. Great place to meet new friends.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/200033776715393/ click on this link and apply to join. If you do not have an account, create one. I'm looking forward to see you there.

Meanwhile we can still talk here a little if you want. :)
Sending love.

Michelle:
Ilona, I'm so glad to be part of this. You've been the best friend to me and I'm so grateful. Thank you. ♥ Yes, I am there at after care!!! :) I sent my request to join and I'm very interested to have support with clearing and stabilising and to be there with the others.
♥
With Love,
Michelle

Ilona:
It was my pleasure to work with you, you have been great!
Looking forward to know you.

Much love.

Gateless Gatecrashers Book Release

I'm Extremely happy to announce that our book Gateless Gatecrashers is finally finished and is available to download for free from LU website and you can by a pater book too, just click on The Book page for additional info. 

It is made up of 21 conversations that Elena and I had during summer months, they are all on our blogs and perhaps you read them. We are hoping that this book will find everyone, who is struggling with search and will help to see through the illusion of separation.

Gratitude and Appreciation

This book could not have been produced without the team of amazing individuals involved in its creation.

Our deepest thanks to everyone who participated in these conversations. Thank you for sharing your journey. In so doing you are reaching out to help those who are still searching. Many people have reported that the shift happened for them while reading our blogs; we hope this book will spread the message even further, reaching every person who may benefit from it.

We thank all those who worked on this book, helping with editing, design, and advice. Thank you Chandi Riaz, Ciaran Healy, Alexei Stephenson, Viv Westbrook, Jeff Montgomery, Matthew Brown, Diego Stargazer, Bonnie Aungle, and Nona Parry for making this happen. Additional thanks to Damon Kamda and to Tina Huebner Patlyek for administrative assistance during the project.

Ilona and Elena

Timizu: Its Kind Of Like Neo When He Sees Through the Matrix, But Ordinary

Ilona:hello Timizu, thank you for contacting me. now let's see what you brought. just press Post Reply button and write a little about your journey and what you expect from this conversation. make a list of how you imagine this would be like after.


looking forward to hear from you.

Timizu:In 1975 at age 19 I had a near death experience that gave me a profound glimpse of the awakened mind/heart. This experience set the stage for a life of walking a path with heart seeking the end of suffering for myself and others. I practiced Zen in California and this brought me to Japan where I have lived for the last 30 years. I have been fortunate to experience many methods of awakening, including yoga, breath work, native American practices, Enneagram, and for the last 5 years most significantly, inquiry with The Work of Byron Katie.

I have many insightful experiences and awakened moments and also still get caught in my stories sometimes. I have experienced the beauty and joy of life without attaching to story and I would like to live there full time.

If what I have experienced so far is any indication (and I love that I don't know!) what I might expect from this conversation, this inquiry, is seeing the illusion of "me" so clearly that it cannot be a problem again. After "crossing" I really do not expect any specific "thing". "Don't know" feels good to me. And I notice that I have preferences for the quiet openness, clarity, joy and kind actions that have come when I have done The Work sincerely. And in this process I am very open to simply letting the reality of the situation inform itself of what is and is not true

I hope this is helpful.

I look forward to hearing from you about the next step.

T.

Ilona:
That's beautiful, timizu. Thank you. It's a great place to be- no expectation, no knowing...

Ok, let's see where you are at. If I say, that there is no entity you, no controller, no manager, no owner, no observer of 'your' life, none as in zero, what comes up? Write what feelings and thoughts.

Timizu:
Thank you.

Last night when I first read your message, The part about "no observer of 'your' life", struck a feeling of surprise, even a little fear and I heard in my head, "what do you mean no observer?" No awareness? I can see that the I is a story, a phenomenon, but there seems to be awareness. Then what is aware? How is this communication happening? Sitting with that fear, I noticed that it is the fear that there is nothing. Funny how the mind projects meaning onto words.

Then this morning when I read your message again, no manager, no owner, no controller, none as in zero, a feeling of relief, a sigh of relief. It feels very kind not to have to drive, and experience trust in what is. And I notice that there is something that seems to be a me experiencing that.

Ilona:
Very good!

Yes, there is something aware, or in other words aware-ing is a process.. If you look around you, notice that noticing is happening all by itself. There is no noticer same way as there is no breather, no eater, no runner, just action happening, experiencing happening.

Look at language and how it is constructed:

There are labels for objects: table, car, body, thought, feeling, fear etc.

There are labels for activities: I breathe, I cough, I scratch an itch, I run, I feel. There is an object doing action according to the way that language is set. It's an assumption that has never been questioned.

If there was no language, there would not be an I. It's a label, a word that precedes other words. Cat has no I and he lives happily.

Observe action today, is there a doer in the experience or just an experiencing happening + labbeing happening = story is being created. Write what comes up.


Timizu:
Thanks. Enjoying this very much. Action of going to sleep is happening now. Look forward to exploring more tomorrow!


Ilona:
Somehow this came through today as a next bit for our conversation.

http://markedeternal.blogspot.com/2012/01/trick-of-language.html


Timizu:
A wonderful day! Looking for a doer in experience and there's no doer. Labeling happening, thoughts coming and going, stories flow and like dreams they come and go on their own.

Checked Facebook and there was a post by my niece that said she was not feeling well, again. Then, as I (this is the story) was fixing breakfast painful thoughts of her and her problems started to come and instantly a beautiful feeling of love welled up to meet them. I saw that those thoughts were not about her. They had nothing to do with her. I was delighted to see that they were a story about my own pain. And instantly and even more delightfully the loving presence welled up to meet the story of a me and it just flowed to cutting the apple, cooking cereal, pouring the soy milk, boiling water, making tea, one phenomenon flowing into the next in delight, as delight.

Moved through the day and checked many times to see if there was a doer and again and again there was not. It was what I would usually refer to as a busy day. Many times there were stories featuring, "I me, mine", followed by a silent "is it true?" And still no doer. It was fun to watch as " he, me" was making copies and the machine ran out of paper and there were marks on the screen and spots from the printer, buying white out to cover the spots... all things that would usually would cause a little stress. Normally, I might take a deep breath to get centered but it was just happening, flowing flawlessly as a story of flaws; funny, delightful, unfolding in perfection.

Ilona:
That is great report, thank you.

Ok, so story is narrating itself. Thoughts are like anchors to the stories and there is no control over that.

Does all this process require a 'me' to happen?
What is here when story shuts down for a moment?

Do you exist?

:)


Timizu:
Last night sitting with some struggling with impulses and old stories of what is needed and the answer was sleep. Waking up today to find these answers coming for breakfast:

Does all this process require a me to happen?

This process is a story. No story, no process, no me. Me is a story. "It" is not a process. "It" is not a phenomenon. It just is, what it is, not! Not 1, not 0. What is "It"? Don't know. And in not knowing there is a knowing.

What is here when story shuts down for a moment?

Is-ness. The experience of the moment as it is. If there could be a word to describe the quality of this moment, it would be love itself.

Do you exist?

Yes, a big YES, that includes no! I exist as existence itself. I am here and here and here and here, as each moment and the infinite space that holds the moment; no separation. No expectation. Always a beginning. Yay!

Love,

T.


Ilona:
brilliant, Timizu, so happy that you are coming out nicely on the other side.

tell me, does existence itself need a 'me' to exist? is existence/ life personal in any way? if i say life, existence, reality = 1, i, me, self = 0, how does this feel?

...........................................

Ilona:
how is it going?

sending love..

Timizu:
Hello Ilona,

It is going well and I have been busy with work facilitating workshops in Tokyo over this weekend. These questions feel very deep and on the edge of unknown. I have not found the opportunity to sit quietly with them yet and when I do I will send my reply. And I see that existence does not need a me to exist because when the story of me stops, existence is present as presence itself. It is not personal. The language of me, words, verbal thoughts are the same as the wind, grass, the sound of traffic on the street outside. Nothing personal. That's all for now and I will get back to you when I do. Thanks for asking.


Ilona:
Yes, you are looking right at it!

Write more when you have time to do it. :)

Sending love.

Timizu:
is existence/ life personal in any way? No. This answer just came of itself, a quiet joy bubbling up from absolute unchanging foundational stillness as needed; returning in no time, having never, actually never left source at all.

If I say life, existence, reality = 1, i, me, self = 0, how does this feel? When I first read this, it sounded like the end of the world; end of me. With a twinge of fear it felt like I would lose all my world and all the dear ones in it and the memories of me built up with the efforts of years of life, learning and growing the story of this one unique me. The I let the question go and plunged into a busy weekend of work. Strange and not strange at all, as I facilitated and did the Work of Byron Katie over the week end, me was just not there and The Work just worked, joyful, deep, effortless. Came back to your questions and saw that what had seemed to be fear was just joy in disguise, the excitement of re- cognition and not even that. So, how does it feel, reality=1, i, me, self=0? Reality feels 1, me feels zero.

Ilona:

Awesome, my friend.

:))

Let's see if you can answer these questions now.

1) Is there a you, at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the self is and how it works.

3) How does it feel to be liberated?

4) How would you describe it to somebody who has never heard about this illusion.


Timizu:
Hi Ilona,

Just wanted to say thank you again for your beautiful, clear questions and the answers that reveal themselves so beautifully as reality. Have been hanging out with this seemingly new lightness of being and kind of test driving it over the last few days. Will be be sending answers to your latest questions as they come.

Love,

T.

Ilona:
Dear Timizu,

i'm so happy to hear from you. take your time to settle in and answer when ready. looking forward to read what you've got :))

much love!

Timizu:

Is there a you, at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever? No. Just mind innocently believing something it is not. There never was, is, or will be a separate entity, "me".

2. Explain in detail what the self is and how it works.

What mind identifies as "self" is a conglomeration of linguistic labels that have become habituated as beliefs. Before believing, there is just the experience of reality as it is with no distinction of experience and experiencer.

A thought appears, mind believes it, and the peace and beauty of reality as it is seems to disappear.

The illusion of "I" is born when mind, in complete innocence, believes that it is a separate human body. Another body, a feeding, nurturing body, talks to it and calls it, "baby" , "Timmy" , "Good boy!" And in an innocent unquestioned moment, a believer is born. Reality itself is unchanged, but the acquisition of language and attachments to beliefs facilitates the objectification of experience and the illusion of "self" and "other", "me" and my" world are simultaneously created together.

As a baby, the "adults" around "me" are believers too and do not question that the self is unreal. And Instead of just experience, there seems to be a doer that is in charge and needs to do something to satisfy its needs. But a doer cannot be. Separated from being, the illusion of the doer has no presence in reality and so it must be in constant movement from story to story, belief to belief, back and forth between desire and fear.

Mind attaching to the belief of a me, identifies the sensations of the body as good and bad, which leads me to want the good and reject the bad. Emotions and thoughts that come are also classified as good and bad according to my beliefs of who I am and what I need. And since the self is based on unquestioned thoughts and stories about reality, it can never be aware that it IS reality itself. And without the awareness of reality, the unquestioned mind, thinking it is a "self", must continually look for satisfaction where it can never be found. The result is stress, strife, suffering, and despair of ever finding peace.

The illusion of self, creates the illusion of suffering until the thoughts and beliefs that seem to hold the self together are questioned. And just as the unquestioned believers, our parents, teachers, and friends in the dream of "me" showed how to believe, friends who have questioned the illusion of self and awakened to reality, can show us how to use the language and experience of inquiry to awaken from the dream of a separate self that suffers.

How does it feel to be liberated?

Nothing special. Just lighter and happy, peaceful for no reason. Brief beliefs well up and reactions start to engage, then they just pass on. Doing everything I was doing before, just lighter. Working, what I would call a busy schedule. Just ok. And just don't see a me in this anymore. Well, actually I see it and interact with it, may even get a bit involved and excited about it, but it does not last, because I just don't believe it, believe the story of me.

How would you describe it to somebody who has never heard about this illusion.

Its kind of like Neo when he sees through the Matrix, but ordinary. No super powers! Just ordinary love, peace, and lightness of being, which is actually pretty super! Instead of seeing code all around, its like noticing the thoughts and beliefs in my head that I thought were me, and experiencing them as not personal. No me, no struggle. Life lives. I don't have to breath, I don't have to think, thoughts happen in perfect unfolding as needed. They always have, the only difference is now there is a shift in noticing. There is such quiet joy and deep peace in this. And as I have watched this over the last few days there are bumps in the road where, the old habit of I comes in and reacts for a bit and subsides. Any feedback on this is greatly appreciated.

Thank you, thank you!

Ilona:

The clarity is shining through your post!

*bows in honour*

Welcome to living free from belief in fantastic 'me' ! Yes, all is going on as always, only much lighter. Doubts comes up and passes by, anger, fear, frustration- no judgement that it's wrong or shouldn't be here. It's as you say- they just pass on :)

Thank you, timizu, you have been a pleasure to work with.

Are you on Facebook? If not, create an account and find me through my blog, I will invite you to the aftercare group. Sometimes support is needed as all structures connected to this belief start to fall.

It's a beginning of living free, I'm delighted to be part of your journey through this gateless gate.

Much love and appreciation.