There Is No Me, There Is No You

Jon:
Hello. I have been reading the "Gateless Gatecrashers", and find it very beneficial and motivating. I am humbled by your desire and efforts to help others.

On an intellectual level, I fully understand there is no "I"; this is just a label applied to the group of aggregates that I see in the mirror. On an experiential level, I have searched and not been able to find "I".

Having said that, I just took a shower. I stood under the shower head, and the warm water flowed onto my back and it felt wonderful. As it did, I thought to myself "who is feeling this wonderful feeling?" As I said before, on an intellectual level, I know there is no "I". But, there is something feeling the feeling, or else the feeling would not register. I am missing something. Or, I am fighting something.

If you have time, I would love to hear your thoughts and receive any help you are willing to give.

Thank you.

Ilona:
Hi jon.

Thanks for reaching out :)
There is this assumption that there is a who. There isn't. When shower is on, next time, notice, it's only experience happening. See- the experience, experienced and experiencer is one! No gap. No who in there. Just feel it.

I is a label that is part of language for communication purposes only. In the feeling there is no I. It's impersonal. Test it. With anything.

Hear sound and see- sound is being heard. Smell something and see there is no smeller, just action/ perception + label "I smell".

You won't find an I because there is no I. Have a look. Literally.

Write what you've got.

Much love.

Jon:
I was in the shower, and you are right. It is feeling, it is experience. There is no feeler, though. Just feeling.

The same as a spot on my back that is sore. "I'm in pain" was what I thought, but as I dig deeper into this there is no "I", just the feeling that is labelled pain. Just a feeling, no feeler. I can even dismiss the label of pain and see the feeling only, and its affects are not as harsh as before.

OK. I feel like I'm having a battle. I fully understand no "I" intellectually - I have for almost two years now. This was the first small victory and has allowed me to build to the point of today. Well, build to the point of yesterday - you gave me another victory with the shower analysis and upon looking at what you said which was proven true. Thank you!

However, the battle is not over as the next thing my imaginary ego throws at me is "who turned on the shower". If there is no who - as has been proven with the feeling of the warm water from the shower head - how did the shower get turned on? How does a door get opened?

I hope these questions are not annoying you. I know this is "I" clinging to the last bits of the battle, and I feel that I am so close. Many thanks for your time and your help. I am most appreciative.


Ilona:
Hi Jon.

Yes, there is no feeler.
Same way there is no doer.

Any action happening is experienced as its happening then thoughts come up and claim doership.

Lift your left hand right up now- above your head.

Watch it as it is happening.
Is there a doer in that? How did it lift up? Does is need to be the doer- I - for it to happen?


If you are around small babies or animals, how do they operate? Is there a doer inside them? Why would an adult human be different. Belief in doer does not affect the action itself.


Is it you doing walking or walking is happening? Test it. Thoughts come up about zillions of things but none of them are required for walking.

Watch closely every action and see if it's true.

Let me know what comes up.


Jon:
"Watch closely every action and see if it's true. Let me know what comes up."

I am, I will. And I will write and email back to you my findings. One question - instead of approaching this from what doesn't exist "me, I, you", can I approach this from what does exist? Granted, I fully realise that I am still labelling it - but is it just consciousness, or flow (as I see it called)?

Many thanks and much love to you.

Ilona:
Yes, approach from what is, what is obvious. :))

Jon:
You are amazing! Well, if there was a you - but the sentiment hopefully isn't lost!

There is no doer. No doer making salad. No doer walking up the stairs. No doer driving the car. Just making, just walking, just driving. More importantly, and something I never thought to look at before though it is obvious, there is no doer in "others" - no "I" in others, no "them". Just thoughts and actions. The person who was rude to me today wasn't "him" - there was just thought, just action. Hard to stay mad at "someone" that doesn't exist.

OK, thoughts come up and "I" try to cling to them, to own them. But there is no ownership, there is no me, there is no I. Only thoughts. Only walking. Brilliant.

Still, a question. Where does a thought or action originate? For instance, I'm in the shower and it is time to apply shampoo - where does that come from, because I know there is no me to think and decide that. Is it as simple as saying the brain is part of the body like the arm, and the thought/action to shampoo comes from the brain? Likewise, the person that honked at me today because I didn't immediately go when the light turned green. Where did the thought and action to honk originate? That brain? As, there is no "him".

This is exciting.

Much appreciation and love.

Ilona:
Ahahaha! You are seeing it! Right there :)

Good question- where does the impulse for action come from? It's all a bit like an itch and a scratch, human organic computer is reacting to environment and the choice is made spontaneously. Brain is such an amazing piece of equipment.

You may find this video helpful especially the last 6 minutes. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Biv_8xjj8E&feature=youtube_gdata_player

It's one hour long but very interesting. :)
Watch it.

Much love!
And I'm delighted to see that you are crossing the gate nice and easy.

Jon:
I will watch that video today, thank you!

I had an epiphany - finally realised internally that thoughts arise and I label them as "I thought this", "I made this happen"...no matter how many times you read that is really what is happening and understand it intellectually (as I have for a long time), until you realise it internally you are just chasing the wind. We all think "we think", and that we make this stuff happen. When in reality it is simple - it happens, and then the label "I did it" is applied afterwards but we are conned and conditioned to thinking that it was there before...and we did it (of course, we don't exist).

It makes perfect sense to me, but I don't know if I am writing it clearly enough for you to understand what I am saying?

One question haunts me - and the answer may be simply "it doesn't matter". The question is - why was the self created? And how was it created? The brain? Evolution? I can't shake the feeling that I want to know this, even though it is not necessary to my liberation so to speak. What are your thoughts on the origins, and on why it happened to begin with?

Much love and appreciation.

Jon:
Just to clarify my last email to you, I asked you " One question haunts me - and the answer may be simply "it doesn't matter". The question is - why was the self created? And how was it created? The brain? Evolution? I can't shake the feeling that I want to know this, even though it is not necessary to my liberation so to speak. What are your thoughts on the origins, and on why it happened to begin with?"

When I say "why was the self created", I know there is no self. What I mean is why did that thought "I" ever arise in the first place? Why, how. Again...evolution, the brain, or simply it doesn't matter? But why did it happen, how did it happen...why and how did it arise in what we label "humans". Just curious of your "thoughts" on the matter.

Thanks!


Ilona:
Dear jon. I'm delighted to hear about you inner seeing of the truth of no self.
It must be such a relief.

How 'self' gets created? Mostly because of the language. When we learn to speak we say I and we get carried away with it.

You may read my blog on the language thing. http://markedeternal.blogspot.com/2012/01/trick-of-language.html?m=1

Also you will find some answers in the video. :)

Sending love.
We'll speak tomorrow.

Jon:
Wonderful video! I found "me" talking to Marcus the last 10 minutes, saying there is no you thinking...only thinking!!! There is no you deciding...only deciding!!!

Oddly enough, I read this comment a few days ago on a topic not related to liberation, but never more pertinent and spot on:

"Ever thought about how you come to have thoughts? In order to have a thought a slew of neurons have to fire in your brain. But you can't control which ones fire, because in order to do that you'd have to think about it and make a plan. But you can't do that without your neurons firing... It would seem that your neurons are doing their own thing, firing away like mad, and the end result is you... thinking your in control."

I thought this (or some variant of this in your own words) could help you with future people seeking liberation.

Ilona, I can't express my gratitude enough. Thank you for your efforts, your caring, your friendship.


I've seen it mentioned several times that there is "clean up work" and more to do after you have passed through the gate that really isn't there. Can you elaborate on that?


Ilona:
The neuron thing is great! There is another good video on neurons that I can recommend- athene's theory of everything. Check it out on YouTube. I loved it.

There is a fb aftercare group, do you have an account?

But before I can invite you there we have a confirmation process where other my friends at LU check if all went trough completely.

I'll ask you to answer few questions and I'll put our conversation on my blog, with or without your name, up to you. Then once you get confirmed I'll invite you to unleashed :)




So here are the questions :
1) Is there a 'me', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?
2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works.
3) How does it feel to see this?
4) How would you describe it to somebody who has never heard about this illusion.
5) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

Looking forward to read your answers.

Much love.

Jon:
Wonderful! Here are the answers:


1.) There is no real me. There are thoughts, but thoughts cannot think. There is no "I" or "me" having these thoughts...just thoughts. There is no me walking or showering...just walking, just showering. There never has been a me. There is a body with its associated parts, but no owner of that body.


2.) The idea of a separate self is attached to thoughts as a component or label. For example, the hand is raised - in conjunction with my brain taking in stimuli and issuing the thought to raise the hand, there is a label of "my" put on the thought so it appears "I" am raising my hand. When in actuality, there is only raising...no "me" raising. This applies to everything - feeling, talking, walking, etc. In reality, everything just is. I am not a "me" in the universe, I am the universe.


3.) It is interesting to see this. I have known it intellectually for quite a while, but the attachment to "me" wanting to be a good person, a successful person prevented me from actually internalising and discovering it beyond just the intellectual level. It is liberating to finally be there.


4.) The tree does not have an owner that helps it tree. The bush does not have an owner that helps it bush. Everything just is, just does. Likewise, we don't have an owner that helps us live - there is just living. We have, however, created an illusion that there is an owner - a "me", an "I". But if you search for this "I", you cannot find it. What is "I"? Is it your hand, your arm, your brain? Point to it? You can't because it is none of those things. Is it a combination of all of those components? How can a combination of things that aren't "I" be "I"? They cannot. "I" is an illusion. "I" don't think - thoughts happen, and after they happen there is a label of "I" or "me" attached to them.


And, I would probably elaborate using the neuron explanation from my last email. :)


5.) When you and I discussed the warm water, and the feeling of the warm water on the skin. It prompted me to look deeper. When I had the epiphany that this applies to everyone, not just me - and the person who was rude to me was not a "he" at all. There was no separate "he" that was rude. There is no me, there is no you. Only being, only doing. The entire process of you answering my questions and having me investigate for myself.


Thank you! Let me know if you want more details or explanation, and where "I" go from here. And, you are free to use my first name, Jon, or J.D. which is what "I" am often referred to as.

For Michelle A Click Happened While Listening Radio Interview

I loved working with Michelle, she is such a sweet girl and amazingly all became clear for her while listening my recent radio show on Wizard's radio. Thank you John Troy and Trip :)

( you can find the recording on LU website Audio page )

Michelle:
My story is mostly just dealing with depression. For a long time, I didn't believe anyone would be able to help me. And no one did. But I've read some of your amazing dialogues with people on Marked Eternal. I'd appreciate very much if you would talk with me.

Ilona:
Thank you for stepping in, Michelle. It is my pleasure to help you to resolve this. All that you need to do is answer some precise questions and get back to me at least once a day, stick to the process till the end and be completely honest, like you never were before.

So what do you expect from this conversation?
How do you imagine it will change your life?
What do you want to gain from this?
Answer in full, when ready.

By the way,what country are you in, I'm in uk, it helps to know the time difference.

Michelle:
Thank you, Ilona.

I expect this conversation to make me look at truth that I haven't seen.
I imagine I won't believe in suffering anymore, which will allow more happiness to be experienced.
I want to gain freedom from my present, difficult mental consciousness of self and world.

USA, EST - It's Sunday, 11:00 a.m. Grateful this is happening. ♥

Ilona:
Great, but let's leave your expectations right here for a while and take a look with fresh eyes.

Tell me precisely what feeling comes up, where in the body, when you let this thought in :
There is no separate self at all in reality, no doer, no thinker, no watcher, no observer, no experiencer. None as in zero.

Let's see where you are at.

Much love.

Michelle:
I feel relief with that thought. (I took it to sleep with me last night and it was there when I woke up, too. I like it.)

I feel energetic movement inside my stomach area, just above my belly button. Slight nausea with it. (I feel that frequently in meditation, too. A pulling upward sensation, with some nausea.)

I don't notice emotions. Movement in the head region, pressure there, around my eyes. Warmth in the heart region twice so far.

Ilona:
thank you for answer, great, we can move forwards. anytime there is a bit of fear or frustration coming up, just let me know, we will work through it. so far it seems that you are open and ready.

soooo....

where do the thoughts come from?
can they be controlled?
can a thought be stopped in a middle?
is there a thinker?

please answer in full.

Michelle:
Thank you, Ilona. I will let you know if I feel anything uncomfortable or dark.

Where do thoughts come from?

It seems like they appear in the center, coming up from somewhere, I can't see where. Whereas reading your words or repeating them is more at the top of my head. I can feel that, it's more forced, like an exertion. (Unclear thinking has been a problem here for some time, by the way.) I noticed when I was looking for thought, a soft moving of air perception, like moving water or air, opening out, flowing. I couldn't see anything in there.

Can they be controlled?

No. They don't obey commands or requests, and they move through any imagined or invented obstruction or suppression techniques I've tried.

Can a thought be stopped in a middle?

I don't know. Looking for a middle of a thought, to try to stop it. Funny trying to find the "middle" of one. No, it seems like the whole thought gets through. Attention can be turned away in the middle of thoughts about a subject, but I don't know what happens to the thought(s) after that. My meditation practice includes looking away from thoughts. So I've been working with that.

Is there a thinker?

A thinker who makes the thoughts or thinks them out? I don't see one. There does seem to be something that pays attention to and gets involved with thoughts. Life in me does that. And then it's the sufferer. That's the only thinker that I know of. I don't know what thinks the thoughts or doles them out before they appear to me.

Ilona, I sat with each of your questions and asked them of myself and waited for looked answers. I know I didn't get any truly clear or certain answers. I really don't know anything. I hope these will be okay.

Ilona:
Good good, but I need you look deeper. Deeper than that. Where do thoughts come from? Just wait for next thought and catch it right as it appears.
You say that there is a sufferer from which thoughts appear. Isn't that just another thought?

There is a sufferer here
There is no sufferer here

^ both are equally just thoughts.

Can you tell if thoughts appear on automatic or do you actually need to do something to make them come?
Do thoughts control body? Or are they just labelling what body does?

Spend some time watching the thoughts with curiosity and write answers when ready.


Thank you!

Michelle:
Thank you, Ilona.

What I meant to say was that a sufferer seems to appear here from following or going along with thoughts. It seems to result in confusion and suffering here. But I can apply what you said to that, too. Yes, both are equally just thoughts. "There is a sufferer here. There is no sufferer here."

...[I} need you to look deeper. Deeper than that. Where do thoughts come from?

I went to work today and have been doing my best to look deeper all day. It's like looking into dense fog, asking the question and trying to see or notice where thoughts come from. They appear out of nowhere. There are image thoughts and word thoughts. The word thoughts narrate or judge appearances or label them. I noticed the labelling is automatic and mostly instantaneous. I don't have to do anything for that to happen. The labelling is frequently very simple, mostly just the colour or the name of the object. The image thoughts seem to trigger word thoughts about the image.

It does seem that I can choose what I want to think about. For instance, I'm going to think about dogs right now and name a bunch of different breeds of dogs. I'm not really going to name them. It's just an example. Or types of flowers. And go through the names of flowers I remember. Or I can think the word "I" and look and see where it comes from. I feel that thought "I" in my heart region pretty strongly. I don't know if drawing from memory is considered thinking. Sometimes a poem memorised many years ago will pop up in its entirety. Is a memory considered a thought? They come out of nowhere, too.

Thoughts label what the body does both as the body is doing it, and before the body does it. A thought appears, "I'm hungry." Eventually, the body goes and eats. It labels the shampoo, soap, etc. in the shower. Each thing it is doing. Or it labels it first and then does it. Often it says "I have to" or "I gotta" do this or that. Sometimes the action follows, sometimes "I have to" or "I gotta" isn't followed by action of the body. Like laundry that isn't done, even though the thought appears to do it or that it should be done.

I feel extra cloudy today. It all seems to congregate in my head/mind, and chest area, so there's not much room for thinking. Except for an occasional break, this has been my usual state for years now. I realise that's just a thought, too. A descriptive one of the experience here.

I'll keep LOOKING. Any suggestions about where exactly or how I'm to be looking?

Thank you,

Ilona:
Great, thank you.

You say that you can choose what to think about. It's also just a thought- I can choose what to think about.. Take a look. It's all just thoughts.
And with the hunger thing- first there is a feeling in the body then thoughts pops up. Take a closer look here too.

Ok, next step we examine the labels themselves. Notice that thoughts point to things that are actually here and also things that aren't here- memories, future, imaginary stuff, fantasies. For the mind there is no difference. But today I want you to look what thoughts point to real things and what to imaginary. Thoughts are either pointing to real or other thoughts about unreal.

Real is that which can be sensed and do not disappear if you stop believing in it.
Like thought keyboard. It's points to the thing that is being felt as you type.
Thought fairy points to a story about fairy which unfolds as thought train about it.

What does thought 'me' point to?
What does thought 'I' point to?

Michelle:
Hi, Ilona. That's true about hunger. Definitely notice that. Yes, it is all just thoughts.

There were a lot of thoughts today. When I woke up fresh and read your message one of the first things I noticed was a strong aversion to what you described as real. The things at hand, the keyboard, the cup, the clothing. Things. Thoughts came up like: I don't like them. I don't want them. they're nothing. They don't mean anything. I felt sad about trying to understand, see, or know these things as reality. I did feel some of the edges of the sadness disintegrating as I continued to accept the exercise. You know, that this is what is needed here as part of this process.

Then there were remembering thoughts. And a question: They don't mean anything, compared to what?

It was very busy at work today, a co-worker was out sick yesterday and today, so there wasn't a lot of time to practise distinguishing between the different kinds of thoughts. There was time in the morning before work and during an hour lunch break, which was devoted to this. Thoughts pointing to past, tomorrow, future, right now, wishes. They were all just thoughts, yes.

Last night, I used your suggestions (for dealing with fear and other unpleasant feelings) that I found in other dialogues on Marked Eternal on the fog I mentioned. Is that alright? I know you didn't say to do that, but I just wanted to be clearer for this process. Some things happened, totally subjective, internal, more feeling experiences than thoughts. Weird, really. I wouldn't say it was completely successful, but after the come closer, thank you, share your wisdom, I asked what it was protecting me from. This is what came up: Reality.

I actually did feel clearer today, at least until a staff meeting at the end of the day which was irritating for me. That should fade out soon.

I'm going out for dinner in a little while and will continue practising distinguishing between what different thoughts point to.

As far as the thought me, what it points to, I initially noticed many memory thoughts pointing to what isn't here now, past images about "me", this body appearing as me in the world now, and further inward a lot of nothing. I enjoyed looking at the endless nothing it points to more than the thoughts. The thought "I" points to my heart centre. It feels more in front of where the "me" thought points to, which is more inward. I know that sounds strange.

I wanted to make sure to write this response now, in case I'm very tired and fall asleep later. Thank you, again, Ilona. Good-night. ♥

Ilona:
Thank you for answer. Yes you can read some other conversations, it may be helpful, no problem here, as long as you keep looking for yourself and not taking anything in as a new belief.

Explore the meaning. Does anything mean anything?
What does table mean? Or what does flower mean? How is meaning assigned to things? What is the influence of memory over that?

Does life mean anything? Does it have to?
Dig here for a bit.

Much love.

Michelle:
Okay, thanks. Just getting this message after work. Used yesterday's assignment today and while I sat in the car for about an hour after driving home from work. Tired. Will dig and look with these new instructions. Thank you for love.

Ilona:
write when you ready, michelle.
sending lots of love your way.

Michelle:
Hi Ilona,

"Does anything mean anything?" No.

Thoughts appear about function (what a thing can be used for), like a table can be used to put other things on top of, to sit at to eat food. A flower can be looked at, seen as pretty, used for decoration, make perfume, etc. But those are just thoughts that don't mean anything.

Meaning is what seems to light something up to attract appreciation. I remember thinking and believing the meaning of life was love. Love = enjoyment, happiness, keen interest, fascination, delight. Memory doesn't seem to have any influence on assigning meaning, other than remembering life being lit up so that present thoughts can compare it to not being lit up. Remembering light in the dark. Memory is useless. Not even comforting.

I don't want to imply that there hasn't been light here since the major darkness happened, a sunrise on the inside, nothing to do with outside, appeared a few times. But it seemed so brief each time. So I'm writing about darkness because I know that better right now and for the most part. The meaning assigner seems to be broken here. No power to light anything up to be appreciated. Like a light bulb that is blown out from too much electric current. Everything becomes dark. Empty of meaning.

Does life mean anything. No.
Does it have to? No, because it doesn't. And no, if it doesn't.

The sense of separate self, which is a lie, is what causes suffering. This is becoming more pronounced and clear. Keeping to truth, that there is no self in reality, chasing "I" thoughts down, "Who said that, is that a self?" to look at them and watch them disintegrate. Liking that, kind of funny. :) Decent day.

Thank you, Ilona. ♥

Ilona:
You are most welcome, dear Michelle.

The sense if separate self is a lie, it's just an innocent misunderstanding that has been programmed into us since we learnt to speak.

The sense of being/ aliveness + label 'this is me' is what created the illusion. Seeing that label itself is not a real entity to which life happens, breaks the spell.

If you get a chance to sit in a park for half an hour and simply notice the totality of movement that includes everything around the body and the body itself, observe the naturalness.. Try to find that line which separates you from everything else perceived. Close your eyes and test if you can know where are the limits of the body, what size and shape it is, where is the centre.

Will be waiting for your answer.
Much love.

Michelle:
Hi Ilona,

Nothing happened at the park. No noticeable shift or difference in perception. The temperature was very cold, and it was difficult to relax 30 minutes on the cold metal bench. Shivering happened, even with coat, gloves and hat. Read your message, which was printed to bring along. Looked at everything around, the totality of movement as best as possible, children, sky, trees, birds--ducks and seagulls. Remembered your word "naturalness" and looked to see it everywhere. Asked the labeller why it was labelling things, looked without labels, too. Looked inward and around with eyes closed, feeling for edges of the body. Could feel the jeans freezing against the legs and where that ended. Not very clearly defined edges elsewhere. Didn't notice a centre of the totality, but there seemed to be warmth in the mid-section of where the body appears which became a focal point and seemed to allow the length of time needed for the exercise. Now, at home, the same mid-section feels cooler. I had a stomachache earlier in the day, which went away after about an hour, and headache---and still felt the headache pretty strongly at the park. Noticed where the intense pressure and clogged fullness of that seems to be and seems to end. (Lots of headaches here for many years, by the way. Pain reliever is rarely used, though, because they don't seem to be typical headaches. Nothing abnormal showed up in head/brain scans, either.)

Is questioning the "I" thought/labeller, just the "I" thought/labeller questioning itself? Can the "I" thought (thoughts appearing in general) operate in favour of truth?

Looking, no matter what. ♥

Ilona:
Thank for your answer dear Michelle.

Two things popped out from it.
1. You have been expecting for something to happen. Nothing is going to happen. The shift is so subtle, that you won't even notice it. Only when looking back you may see later that it happened. So don't worry and don't expect a sudden insight, a sonic boom or cosmic download. ( would be nice ) Relax about the shift. it's already happening as a whole process. Notice that.

2. You say I thought/ labeller.
Look closer here. There is no labeller. But labelling process that is on automatic as a function of the mind.
I thought is not a labeller. I is a label itself. Can a thought be a labeller?
I see, I hear, I feel is how action is labelled. I is part of a 2 word label, that's all. Only because this is how grammar is constructed.

I type- typing is happening - does this action change if it's labelled with or without I?

Great work! And sorry about the cold in the park :) You are very close now.

Michelle:
Hi Ilona,

That's true, I was looking forward to seeing some sort of unification or colour intensification at the scene at the park. :)

"I type- typing is happening - does this action change if it's labelled with or without I?" No, it's the same action happening, regardless of label.

You noticed my aversion to typing I, me, and mine?

"Can a thought be a labeller?" No.

After I read your message this morning, "I" got up and sat over by the window and the thought appeared: "I can't wait to feel grateful." Just then, "I" felt an energy burst at the nape of "my" neck, and a more relaxed feeling.

I noticed my reactions to people are somewhat different today. Less concern, stress, and irritation about how to respond in a meaningful way when I honestly don't perceive any meaning. It's helpful to know that nothing, least of all an "I" that doesn't exist, is in control of what is experienced, thought, or felt here. There is less guilt and frustration about not being able to control it.

I am appreciating this truth with you, Ilona. Thank you. ♥

Ilona:
I feel very happy and smiling now once I read your message. :))

Looks like you ate stepping through nicely.
Tell me what is that 'I' that you referring to now, when you use it?
Is there a separate entity 'me' at all in real life, in any shape or form? Was there ever?

Sending love!
:)

Michelle:
Dear Ilona,

Today was a lot more difficult than yesterday. Early on, there was some spaciousness, which confirmed nothingness here. But later in the day, there was a great big blob of uncomfortableness, right where the upper body and head here appear to be, covering and rendering the mental faculties almost inoperable. It's an impersonal blob, they always are. It has nothing to do with what is going on in the story here. For the most part, it is the story, since functioning is so difficult with it.

This happens so frequently here. Thousands of times over the last ten years. So today, I did my best to remember the truth that there is no me, no separate self at all in reality. There is no me, how can nothingness suffer anything? Several times, I used your method for fear. I wasn't able to look behind or up under it. It is felt more in the frontal area here, so when you say look behind it, do you mean inward or outward? I wound up just looking straight down into it, saying, "Is there a self there in nothingness? It seemed to cut it by a third. Will get back to it after writing this.

Do you have any suggestions?

What is struggling, thinking something can be done about this? Nothing is doing that?

"I" is whatever is typing this. Nothing feeling something it's not enjoying.

Intellectually, I've learnt the answer with you. No, there is no separate me at all in real life, in any shape or form. And there never was. But I don't have a liberated view of the mind and it's workings and the character Michelle in the story, or a sense of humour about it.

I'm sorry that I'm definitely not seeing "it" clearly. Not feeling liberation today.

Still looking, no matter what. Thank you, Ilona. ♥

Ilona:

Look at the blob as a cloud. It passes away, regardless if you mentally push it, try to modificate it, will it away, accept and look behind, blob rises and fades. Can you just let it be here when it comes? You can ask the blob, what is it that he wants to tell you, speak to it. And don't try to get rid of it. Instead thank it for coming and listen to it's message.

See how that turns out.
The goal here is not be free from blob, but experience the blob without judgement. Then it looses power over you can not bother anymore.

How is it going today, dear?


Sending love.

Michelle:
Dear Ilona,

I felt a lot of support through today, at work and after. Thank you so much for help with this. It moved more centre, the feeling here was more centred...not so out of alignment, so to speak. I said thank you for coming and listened a lot but it didn't say anything yet. Accepting, listening...

Happy Valentine's Day, Ilona. I appreciate you, this, so much. xo ♥

Ilona:
glad to hear that there is some acceptance and feeling of being more centred. i like to approach feelings and emotions as if they were my friends that come for a visit. it makes it easier to release. how is it going today?
much love.

Michelle:
Hi Ilona,

The pattern for many years has been that it seems to take about three days for each blob "friend" to clear and the end of it is noticed as cool, peace energy moving in the forehead area where the brain/usual mental faculties used to seem to be. Sometimes there is barely a break in between before the next blob fuses in. It's perceived differently from emotions and feelings that arise in the personal story of Michelle. And it's much harder for blobs to clear if there are personal upsetments, as the feeling of the two mixing is far worse. Hard to explain. And it doesn't really matter, because...

While still in the midst of clearing here, something happened last night. About one or two a.m., I went to bed listening to your December radio interview with John Troy. Toward the end of the hour, something extremely clear and simple that you said made me look up to the left at an "I thought" that was appearing there, and there was a click. Literally, a click sound. It clicked off and it was quieter here.


This is what you said that made me look: "There is this thought I and once you see that I is just a thought, you see that thought itself does not think."


I've never been much into sports and don't watch football, but a good example would be if the volume of the sportscaster's voice was suddenly clicked off while watching a football game on TV, you could quietly watch the action of the game without the loud, overpowering voice and interpretation.

So the option is available to just look. And the option is available to delve into thoughts/memories, because they are still there. Here, it's like the thoughts are muffled under a pillow. That's why it's quiet.

Thoughts of truth (There is no separate self in reality at all, no me, etc.) make space here. Too many regular thoughts still feel confusing and uncomfortable.

Thank you for truth and love, Ilona. ♥ Valentine's Day. :)

Ilona:
oh wow. that is a very interesting turn. :)
how is it feeling today? does thought I still feels like a thinker or is it seen just as another thought? please write more about it.

sending lots of love.

Michelle:
Hi Ilona,

Definitely, the thought I is just another thought...under the pillow. It can come up to appear to speculate and entertain with other thoughts, memory thoughts, and try to put things together for "understanding" about the story of Michelle, to solve the mystery of how strangely reality expresses as her, but it doesn't know anything. Meanwhile, there is a falling in love with nothing here--identifying with nothing, trusting in nothing, seeing and feeling that nothing is best, desire to see and know nothing where every false sense of self is felt or perceived.

Thank you, again, Ilona...this has been the best help. xo ♥

Ilona:

awesome...

all identity is assumed. identifying with nothing is also identifying, that is not the end... there is no you at all as in zero, you don't exist as nothing. nothing is, but it's not you. can you take this next step and see if it's true? everything/ nothing is, but does any of it require a 'me'?

sending lots of love...

Michelle:
Hi Ilona,

Is zero less than nothing? No-thing feels true, because it feels better and easier. More so yesterday than today, because doubt thoughts today. Did I use an inadequate word in the description? I looked it up to see:

Nothing - 1. Not any thing; not any being or existence; a word that denies the existence of any thing; non-entity; opposed to something. The world was created from nothing.

Everything does not require a me. Nothing does not require a me.

After looking all day, I haven't noticed a next step to take that is true or truer or feels better. (Headache and more cloudy today.)

Thank you. ♥

Ilona:
See if you can simply relax. This may take some time to settle. There is nothing 'you' can do to see the truth of it. And focus on truth, not on what feels better. Just relax and keep an eye on the obvious.

Thoughts of doubt are also just thoughts. Examine the mechanism
Itself. How does it work, what is behind, is there a who to which doubt belongs to.

Take it easy today. Rest.


Sending love.

Michelle:
Thank you, Ilona, that's a good idea. My coworker was out again, so it was very busy today, but I have a few days now to relax. Today was good, though.

I just want to clarify here, in case anyone reads this, that the click of liberation that I wrote about on February 14th was just one click. Reading it now, it looks like I wrote that there was a click and then it clicked off. No, it was just one click, like a camera click, when I looked at an "I thought" with suspicion and knowledge of the truth that I had just heard you say. It was so clear and instant.

I have no doubt about this, it already happened. Especially here, I'd expect it to take time to settle. Every slight or certain improvement and decrease in discomfort is keenly noticed and deeply appreciated.

Thank you, Ilona. Goodnight. ♥

Ilona:
Thank you, Michelle :) my heart fills with warm feelings as I read your message.

Looks like you are ready for the final questions :) so we both see clearly where you are

1. When you say I where does word I point to?
2. Is there a self at all in real life in any shape or form? Was there ever?
3. How and when this illusion gets created and how it sustains itself?

Please answer when you ready.

Sending lots of love.

Michelle:
Hi Ilona,

1. It points to another thought, that I is a thought.
2. No. No.
3. We're introduced into it at birth and conditioned through childhood to identify with a body/mind/thought as self, and the illusion sustains itself with an "I" mechanism/virus in the mind that keeps us seemingly magnetised, leashed, imprisoned, or encapsulated in the mind, which is a false sense of self and separation and the cause of suffering.

Thank you. ♥

Ilona:
Sweet!

How does it feel to be liberated from this illusion?
How would you explain about it to a friend who never heard about it before?


Sending love...

Michelle:
Hi Ilona,

I was just talking with a friend about this last night. It's true, the life and story are the same and whatever seemed to be happening before is still happening, but it's better in several ways. First and most important here is that the experience of suffering is different with the truth of no self. It's the answer I was looking for. 

The second is that the feeling of external spiritual seeking and needing something is gone. For instance, I can watch videos of Adyashanti and Mooji and not feel they have something I don't, and I can appreciate the expressions on their faces when they talk about no-self because I understand what they are talking about. 

The third is kind of funny because I've never been much into affirmations, but I've noticed that I can say all kinds of good things about Michelle, a million different things if I want to, even if they aren't apparently true in the story, and there is nothing contradicting what I said or pulling up thought evidence to the contrary. The words are just spoken and nothing touches them. This would be appreciated by anyone who has ever read self-help books and tried to use the suggested positive affirmations, to absolutely no avail. Nothing is saying anything negative about Michelle here.

I would tell my friend that there is a very simple way to feel better and live easier. I would share some of the above, and suggest they read your book or some of the dialogues on this website to see for themselves if they would be interested.

I have a lot to be grateful for, Ilona. Thank you so much. xo ♥

Ilona:
I'm so happy to see that you are through. :)))
Thank you for engaging into this and thank you for diving right in. Lots of love and appreciation here.

I recommend to join our Facebook group, as question and doubts may rise it helps to clear and stabilise. Everyone in that group has seen the same as you. Great place to meet new friends.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/200033776715393/ click on this link and apply to join. If you do not have an account, create one. I'm looking forward to see you there.

Meanwhile we can still talk here a little if you want. :)
Sending love.

Michelle:
Ilona, I'm so glad to be part of this. You've been the best friend to me and I'm so grateful. Thank you. ♥ Yes, I am there at after care!!! :) I sent my request to join and I'm very interested to have support with clearing and stabilising and to be there with the others.
♥
With Love,
Michelle

Ilona:
It was my pleasure to work with you, you have been great!
Looking forward to know you.

Much love.

Gateless Gatecrashers Book Release

I'm Extremely happy to announce that our book Gateless Gatecrashers is finally finished and is available to download for free from LU website and you can by a pater book too, just click on The Book page for additional info. 

It is made up of 21 conversations that Elena and I had during summer months, they are all on our blogs and perhaps you read them. We are hoping that this book will find everyone, who is struggling with search and will help to see through the illusion of separation.

Gratitude and Appreciation

This book could not have been produced without the team of amazing individuals involved in its creation.

Our deepest thanks to everyone who participated in these conversations. Thank you for sharing your journey. In so doing you are reaching out to help those who are still searching. Many people have reported that the shift happened for them while reading our blogs; we hope this book will spread the message even further, reaching every person who may benefit from it.

We thank all those who worked on this book, helping with editing, design, and advice. Thank you Chandi Riaz, Ciaran Healy, Alexei Stephenson, Viv Westbrook, Jeff Montgomery, Matthew Brown, Diego Stargazer, Bonnie Aungle, and Nona Parry for making this happen. Additional thanks to Damon Kamda and to Tina Huebner Patlyek for administrative assistance during the project.

Ilona and Elena

Timizu: Its Kind Of Like Neo When He Sees Through the Matrix, But Ordinary

Ilona:hello Timizu, thank you for contacting me. now let's see what you brought. just press Post Reply button and write a little about your journey and what you expect from this conversation. make a list of how you imagine this would be like after.


looking forward to hear from you.

Timizu:In 1975 at age 19 I had a near death experience that gave me a profound glimpse of the awakened mind/heart. This experience set the stage for a life of walking a path with heart seeking the end of suffering for myself and others. I practiced Zen in California and this brought me to Japan where I have lived for the last 30 years. I have been fortunate to experience many methods of awakening, including yoga, breath work, native American practices, Enneagram, and for the last 5 years most significantly, inquiry with The Work of Byron Katie.

I have many insightful experiences and awakened moments and also still get caught in my stories sometimes. I have experienced the beauty and joy of life without attaching to story and I would like to live there full time.

If what I have experienced so far is any indication (and I love that I don't know!) what I might expect from this conversation, this inquiry, is seeing the illusion of "me" so clearly that it cannot be a problem again. After "crossing" I really do not expect any specific "thing". "Don't know" feels good to me. And I notice that I have preferences for the quiet openness, clarity, joy and kind actions that have come when I have done The Work sincerely. And in this process I am very open to simply letting the reality of the situation inform itself of what is and is not true

I hope this is helpful.

I look forward to hearing from you about the next step.

T.

Ilona:
That's beautiful, timizu. Thank you. It's a great place to be- no expectation, no knowing...

Ok, let's see where you are at. If I say, that there is no entity you, no controller, no manager, no owner, no observer of 'your' life, none as in zero, what comes up? Write what feelings and thoughts.

Timizu:
Thank you.

Last night when I first read your message, The part about "no observer of 'your' life", struck a feeling of surprise, even a little fear and I heard in my head, "what do you mean no observer?" No awareness? I can see that the I is a story, a phenomenon, but there seems to be awareness. Then what is aware? How is this communication happening? Sitting with that fear, I noticed that it is the fear that there is nothing. Funny how the mind projects meaning onto words.

Then this morning when I read your message again, no manager, no owner, no controller, none as in zero, a feeling of relief, a sigh of relief. It feels very kind not to have to drive, and experience trust in what is. And I notice that there is something that seems to be a me experiencing that.

Ilona:
Very good!

Yes, there is something aware, or in other words aware-ing is a process.. If you look around you, notice that noticing is happening all by itself. There is no noticer same way as there is no breather, no eater, no runner, just action happening, experiencing happening.

Look at language and how it is constructed:

There are labels for objects: table, car, body, thought, feeling, fear etc.

There are labels for activities: I breathe, I cough, I scratch an itch, I run, I feel. There is an object doing action according to the way that language is set. It's an assumption that has never been questioned.

If there was no language, there would not be an I. It's a label, a word that precedes other words. Cat has no I and he lives happily.

Observe action today, is there a doer in the experience or just an experiencing happening + labbeing happening = story is being created. Write what comes up.


Timizu:
Thanks. Enjoying this very much. Action of going to sleep is happening now. Look forward to exploring more tomorrow!


Ilona:
Somehow this came through today as a next bit for our conversation.

http://markedeternal.blogspot.com/2012/01/trick-of-language.html


Timizu:
A wonderful day! Looking for a doer in experience and there's no doer. Labeling happening, thoughts coming and going, stories flow and like dreams they come and go on their own.

Checked Facebook and there was a post by my niece that said she was not feeling well, again. Then, as I (this is the story) was fixing breakfast painful thoughts of her and her problems started to come and instantly a beautiful feeling of love welled up to meet them. I saw that those thoughts were not about her. They had nothing to do with her. I was delighted to see that they were a story about my own pain. And instantly and even more delightfully the loving presence welled up to meet the story of a me and it just flowed to cutting the apple, cooking cereal, pouring the soy milk, boiling water, making tea, one phenomenon flowing into the next in delight, as delight.

Moved through the day and checked many times to see if there was a doer and again and again there was not. It was what I would usually refer to as a busy day. Many times there were stories featuring, "I me, mine", followed by a silent "is it true?" And still no doer. It was fun to watch as " he, me" was making copies and the machine ran out of paper and there were marks on the screen and spots from the printer, buying white out to cover the spots... all things that would usually would cause a little stress. Normally, I might take a deep breath to get centered but it was just happening, flowing flawlessly as a story of flaws; funny, delightful, unfolding in perfection.

Ilona:
That is great report, thank you.

Ok, so story is narrating itself. Thoughts are like anchors to the stories and there is no control over that.

Does all this process require a 'me' to happen?
What is here when story shuts down for a moment?

Do you exist?

:)


Timizu:
Last night sitting with some struggling with impulses and old stories of what is needed and the answer was sleep. Waking up today to find these answers coming for breakfast:

Does all this process require a me to happen?

This process is a story. No story, no process, no me. Me is a story. "It" is not a process. "It" is not a phenomenon. It just is, what it is, not! Not 1, not 0. What is "It"? Don't know. And in not knowing there is a knowing.

What is here when story shuts down for a moment?

Is-ness. The experience of the moment as it is. If there could be a word to describe the quality of this moment, it would be love itself.

Do you exist?

Yes, a big YES, that includes no! I exist as existence itself. I am here and here and here and here, as each moment and the infinite space that holds the moment; no separation. No expectation. Always a beginning. Yay!

Love,

T.


Ilona:
brilliant, Timizu, so happy that you are coming out nicely on the other side.

tell me, does existence itself need a 'me' to exist? is existence/ life personal in any way? if i say life, existence, reality = 1, i, me, self = 0, how does this feel?

...........................................

Ilona:
how is it going?

sending love..

Timizu:
Hello Ilona,

It is going well and I have been busy with work facilitating workshops in Tokyo over this weekend. These questions feel very deep and on the edge of unknown. I have not found the opportunity to sit quietly with them yet and when I do I will send my reply. And I see that existence does not need a me to exist because when the story of me stops, existence is present as presence itself. It is not personal. The language of me, words, verbal thoughts are the same as the wind, grass, the sound of traffic on the street outside. Nothing personal. That's all for now and I will get back to you when I do. Thanks for asking.


Ilona:
Yes, you are looking right at it!

Write more when you have time to do it. :)

Sending love.

Timizu:
is existence/ life personal in any way? No. This answer just came of itself, a quiet joy bubbling up from absolute unchanging foundational stillness as needed; returning in no time, having never, actually never left source at all.

If I say life, existence, reality = 1, i, me, self = 0, how does this feel? When I first read this, it sounded like the end of the world; end of me. With a twinge of fear it felt like I would lose all my world and all the dear ones in it and the memories of me built up with the efforts of years of life, learning and growing the story of this one unique me. The I let the question go and plunged into a busy weekend of work. Strange and not strange at all, as I facilitated and did the Work of Byron Katie over the week end, me was just not there and The Work just worked, joyful, deep, effortless. Came back to your questions and saw that what had seemed to be fear was just joy in disguise, the excitement of re- cognition and not even that. So, how does it feel, reality=1, i, me, self=0? Reality feels 1, me feels zero.

Ilona:

Awesome, my friend.

:))

Let's see if you can answer these questions now.

1) Is there a you, at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the self is and how it works.

3) How does it feel to be liberated?

4) How would you describe it to somebody who has never heard about this illusion.


Timizu:
Hi Ilona,

Just wanted to say thank you again for your beautiful, clear questions and the answers that reveal themselves so beautifully as reality. Have been hanging out with this seemingly new lightness of being and kind of test driving it over the last few days. Will be be sending answers to your latest questions as they come.

Love,

T.

Ilona:
Dear Timizu,

i'm so happy to hear from you. take your time to settle in and answer when ready. looking forward to read what you've got :))

much love!

Timizu:

Is there a you, at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever? No. Just mind innocently believing something it is not. There never was, is, or will be a separate entity, "me".

2. Explain in detail what the self is and how it works.

What mind identifies as "self" is a conglomeration of linguistic labels that have become habituated as beliefs. Before believing, there is just the experience of reality as it is with no distinction of experience and experiencer.

A thought appears, mind believes it, and the peace and beauty of reality as it is seems to disappear.

The illusion of "I" is born when mind, in complete innocence, believes that it is a separate human body. Another body, a feeding, nurturing body, talks to it and calls it, "baby" , "Timmy" , "Good boy!" And in an innocent unquestioned moment, a believer is born. Reality itself is unchanged, but the acquisition of language and attachments to beliefs facilitates the objectification of experience and the illusion of "self" and "other", "me" and my" world are simultaneously created together.

As a baby, the "adults" around "me" are believers too and do not question that the self is unreal. And Instead of just experience, there seems to be a doer that is in charge and needs to do something to satisfy its needs. But a doer cannot be. Separated from being, the illusion of the doer has no presence in reality and so it must be in constant movement from story to story, belief to belief, back and forth between desire and fear.

Mind attaching to the belief of a me, identifies the sensations of the body as good and bad, which leads me to want the good and reject the bad. Emotions and thoughts that come are also classified as good and bad according to my beliefs of who I am and what I need. And since the self is based on unquestioned thoughts and stories about reality, it can never be aware that it IS reality itself. And without the awareness of reality, the unquestioned mind, thinking it is a "self", must continually look for satisfaction where it can never be found. The result is stress, strife, suffering, and despair of ever finding peace.

The illusion of self, creates the illusion of suffering until the thoughts and beliefs that seem to hold the self together are questioned. And just as the unquestioned believers, our parents, teachers, and friends in the dream of "me" showed how to believe, friends who have questioned the illusion of self and awakened to reality, can show us how to use the language and experience of inquiry to awaken from the dream of a separate self that suffers.

How does it feel to be liberated?

Nothing special. Just lighter and happy, peaceful for no reason. Brief beliefs well up and reactions start to engage, then they just pass on. Doing everything I was doing before, just lighter. Working, what I would call a busy schedule. Just ok. And just don't see a me in this anymore. Well, actually I see it and interact with it, may even get a bit involved and excited about it, but it does not last, because I just don't believe it, believe the story of me.

How would you describe it to somebody who has never heard about this illusion.

Its kind of like Neo when he sees through the Matrix, but ordinary. No super powers! Just ordinary love, peace, and lightness of being, which is actually pretty super! Instead of seeing code all around, its like noticing the thoughts and beliefs in my head that I thought were me, and experiencing them as not personal. No me, no struggle. Life lives. I don't have to breath, I don't have to think, thoughts happen in perfect unfolding as needed. They always have, the only difference is now there is a shift in noticing. There is such quiet joy and deep peace in this. And as I have watched this over the last few days there are bumps in the road where, the old habit of I comes in and reacts for a bit and subsides. Any feedback on this is greatly appreciated.

Thank you, thank you!

Ilona:

The clarity is shining through your post!

*bows in honour*

Welcome to living free from belief in fantastic 'me' ! Yes, all is going on as always, only much lighter. Doubts comes up and passes by, anger, fear, frustration- no judgement that it's wrong or shouldn't be here. It's as you say- they just pass on :)

Thank you, timizu, you have been a pleasure to work with.

Are you on Facebook? If not, create an account and find me through my blog, I will invite you to the aftercare group. Sometimes support is needed as all structures connected to this belief start to fall.

It's a beginning of living free, I'm delighted to be part of your journey through this gateless gate.

Much love and appreciation.

From Depression to Lightness...

I have been talking to John on the forum, but then we moved it to private messages. Here is how it happened.

John:

Hi Ilona,

I actually have mild depression but feel shy to disclose so use feelings instead of depression. The feelings are painful, sadness, contraction/tightness, awful squueze feeling in the chest.

There are moments in the day when the feelings are just gone! Feel lightness that is 50% of the no-self expereience i've had!

I also fear that this inquiry leading nowhere like I've been reading/following so many paths for years and want this to end. I see some posts it took hours to realize which I think I did but wonder how I can lose it... Has anyone came back to you after being realized because they "lost it"?

Hope this explain my situation better and thanks for helping!

Ilona:

Thank you for message. if you prefer we can carry on in here, rather than on the forum, or if you choose, email me at markedeternal@gmail.com

the feelings are there for a reason. and yes, this inquiry is going somewhere, as long as you keep with it. mind is trying to create all kinds of distractions and doubts, because we are getting somewhere important, where it would rather not look. but if you keep pushing just a little bit further, all will become obvious very soon.

now if you look at those feelings, ask them, why are they here, why is the sadness here, see what is behind it. take a closer look to the feelings and notice, is there a feeler? what is the feeling without label? just sensation in the body, raw energy, stay with it, look, what is behind.

write to me what you find.

much love.

P.S. that which is seen can never be unseen. just like santa situation, is it possible to believe in santa again once you know it's a lie.

John:

Hi Ilona

Thanks for your post and PM!! Appreciate your positive encouragement.

Yes lets continue using private message.

Replying to your message:

Thanks for encouraging to stay with it! Sometimes, I feel sick of seeking and not finding.

"now if you look at those feelings, ask them, why are they here, why is the sadness here, see what is behind it. take a closer look to the feelings and notice, is there a feeler? what is the feeling without label? just sensation in the body, raw energy, stay with it, look what is behind."

Response: Feelings are here for no reason, its just there? Or feelings are here to protect the self, to shout to stop looking? Does this make sense? Why would feelings hurt self? The sadness is here because there is nasty tension, contraction in the chest and I dont like it.

What is behind it? There is nothing behind it, but no click. Like I didnt sense a shift, I was expecting to see hey this feeling happening to no one, not me, woohoo, yeah!! I am free!! So whats real, feelings still there. Then I still feel happening to me, argghhhh. Or feeling is me.

Is there a feeler? Now you ask, I seem to have 2 answers. No there is no feeler. Yes there is feeling happening to/at the core sense of me, so the feeler is the core sense of me. But core sense of me can also be looked upon as another sensation.

What is feeling without label? Feeling without label is just feeling existing, sometime can see feelings are not personal, its just there. Yes just sensation there, energy. What is behind it? I seem to can't look behind or there is nothing behind it.

I am sorry if I am seeing 2 different insights or answers. I spent an hour inquiring, and the answers keep switching back and forth. I see it then I don't see it.

I have read many of the conversations, it seems weird people just notice thoughts, notice I thoughts and then they pop so easily but I can't. I tried answering their questions, I can reply same answers but I don't pop. I spend like 5 hours today!

I am going out of town for 3 days. Ask me a list of questions, will reply in 3 days time.

Thanks and sorry for my slow popping...

Ilona:

you are very very close. very close. just don't expect a click or boom, or lights in the eyes. nothing happens, relax about it. notice that everything IS happening by itself. to no one.

dive in to it.

you keep looking and not finding, because you still think that there is something to find. there is no you. at all. just experience happening in now.

sadness comes to visit and leaves. thoughts can go and create stories about it, or you can just observe the raw feeling as it happens and release happens.

you are not trapped into sense of being. sense of being is not a trap. thought that you are trapped is what traps you. there is no you, is it true?

John:

Replying your post:

Yes, I am trapped in the amness, sense of being, sense of alive, sense of me. I am not sure how to see whether its personal or not? If I see presently, I can see this just a sensation that is intimately close, always there. But I have to be present and focus or I just move to assuming it is me. I guess this is the paradox that there is a sense of me but it is not me or mine.

Existence/amness, life, feelings, thoughts, sensations is and are real - yes, agree.

You are not.

the core here is a belief that there is this separate entity 'me'. an unquestioned belief. question it.

IS THERE REALLY A 'ME'? what is there if there are no thoughts about it?

Response: I have spend 15 minutes looking, pure seeing, no seer, temporarily see there is no self inside the body but no click. Seeing no click, I question the belief. There is a me as a thought or image but no real existence, not in reality. So if there is no thoughts about it, there is no me. I think this but no click. There is still a sense of me, hard to see through this permenantly, really sorry. If I focus, I can see this can labeled as just sensation that feels like I??

Ilona:

Sounds that you are passing through nicely.

Keep on noticing what is and get back to me with full account when ready.

Much love!

Flow just is.

John:

Hi Ilona,

Truly sorry for being away, having good feelings/lightness to life, I want to spend sometime to look and investigate whether I have passed through.

For the first few days of good feelings, most seeking stop, I am staying with the present, noticing. Some bad feelings come, I can label feelings as feelings without labeling as I feel. When sense of me becomes strong, I can saythat is sensing/sensations without labeling it as me.

Life continues jumping back and forth between lightness and normal. I thought it could deepen or stabilize but it didn't. For past 2 days there is no lightness feelings, it seems disappearing.

In response to your 12 jan post, yes I keep looking to maintain the lightness experience that comes and goes. Lightness experience when walking, doing, seeing, hearing without a sense of me, feels light and sweet. I want to see no-self so lightness experience become forever and the sense of me/tightness will lessen or disappear. Sometimes, there is a lingering feeling that I am that tight sense of me, even though I try to label it as just sensation.

Right now, when there is sense of me, I label it as sensation only, but it didn't have the lightness experience. It seems like I just substitute "sensation" word to "I/self" word.

Ilona:

Thank you for writing. I thought about where you disappeared and here you are.

Lightness and sweetness are characteristics of seeing it. But let's check you out properly, so all gets clear. I usually ask to answer four questions. Please answer in full.

1) Is there a you, at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?

2) Explain in detail what the self is and how it works.

3) How does it feel to be liberated?

4) how would you describe it to somebody who has never heard about no you.

Looking forward to your answers. And then we'll take it from there.

Sending love!

John:

Hi Ilona,

Hehehe sorry for the temporary disappearance. Thanks for being there for me :)

Reading your questions, I find it difficult to answer now, let it settle a day, I'll reply you tomorrow.

..............................

I'll try to answer your questions first followed by my thoughts below. My worry is I had read so much that I copy other people's answers.

1) Is there a you, at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?

No there is no me in any shape or form. Although sensation or thoughts labelled as me still comes and goes.

2) Explain in detail what the self is and how it works.

The self is a thought and it always attaches to experiences, thoughts, sensations, feelings, even noticing or awareness and wanting to own them.

3) How does it feel to be liberated?

The lightness comes and goes. Sometimes, I feel lightness in life as there is no burden/emotional baggage of a self, no-self, life happening spontaneously. Out of nowhere, actions followed by actions happen, work done without a controller/orchestrator. Then sometimes, a sensation labelled as me arises or the thoughts that I am the thinker or I am the tight "I AMness" arises, the lightness gone, life goes on mudanely (no click no pop way).

4) how would you describe it to somebody who has never heard about no you.

Are you feeling disatisfied with life? If yes, I have found something that can help you. You see you always think you exist, everything is analyzed in relation to this I. But if you look, this I is just a thought, a story. I am poor, I am fat, I am ugly are just saying this "I-word/thought" is fat,ugly,poor. What does the I refer to? If you think you are the thinker, notice where do thoughts come from? Can you stop thinking? Try it. If you say the I refers to a sense of self/presence, ... (Stop. I am lost here.) My mind says to continue typing "that sense of self/presence is just a sensation and then mind labels it as I". I believe it conceptually but don't experience it. How to argue further?

Don't know why , but before the 4th question, all goes well. Then when answering #4, the strong tightness/contraction of self arises. I don't think I am there yet but sometimes I want so badly, it feels like I am there. Hope you understand :)

Ilona:

Thank you for your honesty. Yes indeed, you may read about it and know the right words, but that does not mean that pop happened.. In your case I see that it did, it's a little wonky now as system has to rebalance and for some time it comes and goes in waves. Contraction~ expansion. Sometimes mind just refuses to believe that this can be so simple.

What are your expectations that haven't been met? Can you look at that and also tell me, what is missing from right now? What is here if there are no thoughts about it?

The lightness is one of confirming factors that follow the seeing. Doubt is also happening, but is it happening to someone? Thoughts about doubt are also happening effortlessly..

John:

Wow you ask some deep, sharp questions! Really thankful!

After reading your message, I feel a slight release as you said I made it. But then as day goes by, I still feel I am not there yet. That is before I absorb what you asked/wrote.

My expectations is a complete detachment from experiences since there is no one there, the lightness that everyone said the way they live life differently after liberation! What is missing? The lightness, the permanent seeing that self doesn't exist or illusional, like 100% believe Santa is illusion. Now the seeing that self is illusion comes and goes, with more times of self/thoughts than no self. It's like I have to check/look constantly to see self is illusion, there is still holding on, sometimes it's so strong, the self seems there.

What is here when there are no thoughts about it? Ankle pain (see below) no thought saying it is mine, nice. Seeing, typing, reading, feeling, senseing, no self. Amazing question. Hehe a lightness feeling now.

I am sorry I have a sudden surge in my ankle pain which is ongoing for years but I went swimming yesterday and now it's really hurting. Now, the lightness is gone and there are constant thoughts that I am in pain, meaning sense of I still exists. So not there yet? I was expecting there is pain but no me, hahaha - I know how non-dual that sounds...

Yes doubt happens, it is only happening to a thought/a story. Wow, a relief, hope this holds/continue - hahaha yet another doubt or thought happening effortlessly. You are the thought/doubt slayer.

Ilona:

dear John,

the end of your message made me laugh, let's slay some more thoughts here :) haha.

right, so i get it that you expect somehow disappear, the sense of i is still here, hahahahaha. ok.

look, there is this body and it experiences pain in the ankle. no escape here. pain is real. no-me is not something that is. it's zero. all the experience, story, life, is real, as always. no changes here.

the sense that you call i, is it here without label? is there any difference on what label is stuck on it?

much love ....

John:

Sorry for my late reply :)

please slay more thoughts until they are terrified of you.

Today is a refreshing day, I can say self don't exist throughout the day. Today is also the 2nd time since the the first pop (reading Elena and Elizabeth's blogs in Dec) I can say I never existed, there is no me, never has. Amazing!

Returning to your message, yes I expect to disappear yet sense of I still here. Now only faintly since replying your message I noticed the sense of self, the sense of self loves to argue with you, saying hey I am here, you can't slay me. Told him tp shut up, hahaha.

Ok have to accept no escape here, I am sure you know I have been wamting liberation as an escape to problems. You said experience, story, life, do you mean experience/story/life as same thing?

The I-sense is here without the labeling. Do you mean, as example, if I put a label like heart to sense of I? The sensation of I don't change despite the label but I feel more relieve/light if I label it as heart than I. Nice!!

Ilona:

What is sense of self prior labelling it?

Can you sense something that does not exist?

Close your eyes and imagine you are holding a ball in between your hands, imagine it vividly including shape, size, texture, temprature hold it there sensing it. Then open your eyes. Was it a ball that you have sensed? What happened to the ball?

Same is with sense of self. Once you open your eyes and see that there is no I, no self at all, what is that is being perceived by senses?

Can sense of I dissapear?

Have fun with that.

John:

Hi Ilona,

Thanks for the reply!!

Prior to labelling, I have to say sense of self is just a body sensation.

No I cannot sense something that does not exist.

I tried your ball experiment, no it was not a ball that I've sensed, it was an imagined ball. The ball disappeared when I see it never existed.

Ok so I can sense something that does not exist, an imagined thing. So once I open my eyes see that there is no self, I am perceiving a body sensation.

Wait, but the sensation of ball is only few seconds so it's easy to see through the illusion. But this core body sensation is almost always there, I can open my eyes and see it's stll there, no?

Sorry understood intellectually but not realizing it yet.

Now I still see there is no-self but still seeking mildly...

Ilona:

the core body sensation is not an illusion. it's here now, and it's real. the belief that it's self that you are sensing, that is not true. it's a real sensation + a label.

life, reality, aliveness body sensation is real = 1

i/ self/ me isn't = 0

how does this feel?

John:

Hehe thanks for quick response.

Now I understand your point, it is real body sensation + label.

I feel a tightening body sensation, trying to push my thought to label the sensation as I, a sudden giggle cause I said no that is not I.

Still no pop yet, maybe let me absorb a day, will reply you tomorrow. A little less concern on the tightening though.

Ilona:

cool, let it sink in. notice how everything confirms it. :) write to me tomorrow.

much love.

John:

I think I made it - I can see that beingness body sensation as just sensation, not me. I can't be found.

There is a lightness to life, although sleepiness, tiredness affects the lightness but I stopped labelling I am/having "tiredness/fatgue".

I am able to notice things without relating to a me.

There is no significant "pop" or super experience. Life goes on without sense of self, although the self tries to emerge occasionally. I was hoping something more significant, a different chop wood, carry water experience. Thoughts of this can't be it arises.

There is still tightening but it doesnt frustrate me as much, seems like last fight to impose as self.

Ilona:

Sounds like you did :) I mean- seeing happened :)

Yes, there is usualy an expectation for some grand pop, but it's only a drop of belief, no big bang, no bright lights, no angel songs...

Tell me please, what was that last bit that pushed you over?

Much love!! I'm so delighted for you.

:))))

John:

Hi Ilona,

Thanks for the reply and staying with me.

I am truly sorry, wanting to be honest. As the day goes, I still have doubts whether this is it. It's like nothing has changed except that I stop seeking (maybe this stop is temporary).

I still feel life as mudane compared to the lightness everyone is saying, like they have such a good relief, delighted, tears coming out, laughters, giggles, hahahahhaha, etc... It's like people saying they start to live life differently, excitingly, dancing with life. That didn't happen to me.

In reply, (if it still applies) the last bit is as you keep pushing, asking me to question again and again, slaying the thoughts that the "sense of existence" is me. I have been reading so many books, you are existence, I am that I am, sense of I Am/existence is always there, you are it, look at yourself, look at I am, sense the I am, find the I am. It is a rock solid belief.It takes many questionings, looking (focus, relax, notice, focus hard, relax), investigating from your guide to chisel bit by bit and slay the belief/thought that I am sense of I am. The sense also tightens whenever I question it, I allow the tightness to be there, accept it (thoughest thing ever), and see it as sensation like a cup. What makes a cup your cup? Thoughts/labels. Those few points pushed me over. Many thanks for the encouragement!

I'll post next replying your 4 questions to know where I am at.

Just to see where I am.

1) Is there a you, at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?

No there is no me at all anywhere, in any shape or form.

2) Explain in detail what the self is and how it works.

The self is a thought that always try to grasps and own experiences, feelings, sensations and thoughts and comparing/analyzing them.

3) How does it feel to be liberated?

Nothing much has changed, life is mudane, except I don't see things happen to an inner core. There is much less thought saying I own this, this is happening to me, I am that something. There is supposedly a lightness living without a core but I don't experience it now.

4) how would you describe it to somebody who has never heard about no you.

I would say hey do you have major trouble with life? If yes, I can tell you what works for me. You see you always think you are the body/thoughts, the ego. But that is false, any problem is only owned by a thought. I am fat, poor, ugly is just a thought I saying it is fat, poor, ugly. A thought saying it has a problem. Where is the you in that? The I thought is not you, can a thought live life? Can I thought see, breathe etc...? There is an investigation method at a Forum Liberation Unleashed that can teach you how to see that the ego or I thought is just a story, an illusion. Check it out.

Looking forward to your answers. And then we'll take it from there.

Ilona:

oh great!

"It's like nothing has changed except that I stop seeking"

this is IT! :)

every human is unique. and waking up is unique, if you read books and what others say it only creates expectations, what it should be like. but, no one can tell how it's should be for you. what is happening is perfect for you.

i did not have any event, no bright lights and no boom, it was completely gentle and subtle. i could not believe that it was it for a day or too, but the more time passed, the more obvious it became. so it looks to me, that it's similar how it's happening for John :))

nothing changed, but seeking dropped--- welcome to life without seeking. even if this feels not big deal, it is a definite shift. and yes doubt comes up, but not to be feared or judged. it comes up so truth can be confirmed again and again. it may take a bit of time for it to sink in. one week, then around 2 months, or so, it's all gradual. and life unfolds in the perfect way for you..

chop wood carry water, sleep, eat, carry on with whatever is mundane as always. nothing is gonna change because there never was a separate you, just a confusion in the mind.

let's look a little bit at this :

There is supposedly a lightness living without a core but I don't experience it now.

is there a core? just dig a bit here. is there a boundary between inner and outer? how far does the outer expands?

what is not effortless?

let me know if i can put out conversation on the forum, so my friends can check thoroughly and confirm that you are through, so i can invite you to unleashed- the afercare group, that offers support and help whenever needed.

so much love and appreciation for you here, my friend.

big hug.

John:

You are like a light beacon guiding and supporting me, can't thank you enough!!!

So feeling life is boring does not mean unliberated... I do feel instances of lightness today, seeing life happening effortlessly. Til today, still not seeking. Occasionally, a self comes in with a sense of strong boredness say "seek more, c'mon this state is so boring/mudane like nothing has happened, you need to spice up your life, find excitement, seek something, do something" I just let it pass.

I am glad to hear that you have similar gentle, subtle experience - great assurance!

In reply to your question, no there is no core, never has. It is just a body sensation mistakened as a core or I. Life/experience happening effortlessly.

Yes sure of course, you can put my conversation up and hope can get some more confirmation. With your unconditional help/guidance, I'll be happy to help in anyway. If I am confirmed, I want to write a short summary (3-5 pages) of my seeking too to help others understand what I've gone through. I wanna help others too to avoid taking the endless long route and take the short cut instead. No more reading 500 books to get nothing has changed.

I should be the one deeply appreciated for your help and kindness, Ilona the self-slayer!! Many thanks friend!!

Ilona:

great stuff John! i'm so delighted for you. :))

i"ll put this conversation on my blog. you can start writing too. same here, i feel i can help people go the short way- right to the point.

much love.

John:

I am delighted too with you by my side in this journey!

I will appreciate if one or two of your friends could confirm that I've made it.

Yeah I also sympathize with the seekers (been there, done that) so I hope can share my perspective on the short cut!

Thanks!