Conversation in Facebook group Unleashed
Ilona: Let's talk about meaning. Does life have a meaning? Or is it just mind stuff that is supporting illusion of 'me'?
Adán: In my case, with the seen all this kind of philosophical questions about meaning or why I am here disappeared. There is no solid one who owns a life and make stories about it. What a relax it is.
Marwijn: The meaning of Life is Life Itself
Ilona: did you hear it somewhere or it's your own seeing?
Marwijn: mmmm it's comes from my heart, Ilona
Ilona: so life means life. ?
Chandi: For me... it was the mind which searched for a meaning to life and wanted to 'hold on' to something. When the mind was seen through... well, life itself doesn't need a meaning, it just IS. Complete in itself.
Marwijn: life is life
Ilona: na naa na na na... there is a song.
Marwijn: Exactly lol
I am not sure if I like the song though hahahaha
In the song it sounds to much much like a statement
No so much like a heart's fluency
Ilona: song is good, whatever, I’m just digging around meaning, or more precisely around the absence of it. so Marwijn, what does life mean?
Marwijn: Anyway, how do you feel there, Ilona?
Ilona: I’m great, :) most of the time.
Marwijn: It means what is in front of you, regardless. Mmmm yeah
Ilona: that means nothing. it is here. meaningful or not.
Marwijn: Mmmm meaning seems attached to an attitude.
It seems that if we really look All IS.
That what is Always there
And all what is in front of us
Jens: Who is looking for the answer???
Marwijn: Seems to me that a meaning is related with a very linear story.
How spiritual the story might be and refined
Lion: If there is no me and everything is life happening, there's no meaning of course. It's just life lifing!
Ilona: yes, meaning is a story about meaning. no more.
Marwijn: and beautiful
What we are is beyond all what we can possible name
Whether we say there is meaning or not
Or what the meaning seems like
We are just a little tiny MORE lol
Have to go now
I like the meaning WTF
Lion: Life itself has no meaning. Meaning is of the mind. Mind appears in Life!
Jeff: Brain cooks up meaning to make endorphins. Or as I like to say "endolphins" !
Julie: great question.
Marwijn: With the termination of a so called separate existence of oneselves, all meanings are a possibility. And in the possibility is the freedom.
Gregory: Trying to keep it simple and avoid controversial terms, I would say that the meaning of life is awareness knowing itself through us.
Lion: If everything is life, what's the meaning for?. Life is boundless. Meaning is contraction!.
Julie: Wow just popped back in and really this is magic this forum / here I'm experiencing more and more.. thank you Ilona
Gregory: O.K. as far as meaning is concerned there can only be meaning in dualistic consciousness .. in pure awareness obviously there is no meaning .. it is a meaningless term in that sense because meaning is always only in relation to something else ..
However as we are endowed with an individual point of view no matter how complete our liberation from it is .. I feel the vibrancy and joy of life which is released upon liberation is the very existing as an individual mind/body apparatus with conscious awareness .. aware of being aware and enjoying a certain “ecstasy” through the double take of being me, an individual human being while swimming in a unitary & universal consciousness which is both me and all things at once ..
In pure consciousness there would be no meaning .. but who can say that they really have or are pure consciousness ? If that were the case would one be able to speak at all ? Meaning only pertains to the lived human experience ..
When one tries to maintain a silence and just experience that sense of being, the level of joy just seems to rise and any sense of or need for meaning dissolves in the joy of the gift of life/being/consciousness/awareness itself.
Viorica: "Does life have a meaning?"....yes, the journey is the meaning, but no destination....I lived all this life to be here now, to write this post, to feel my feet cold, to enjoy the thought that Amir is unique and can not be 2 Amir! , and to feel pain in my eyes.....that's it....moment by moment, wondering in unknown.....
Ilona: I say that meaning of life is love. That through love we create and share, connect and grow. That makes meaningful changes.
Sandra: I don't think life has a meaning......the only meaning it could have is the meaning our mind gives it. Any labels we give life ....come from our mind. What would meaning be to nothing.....or everything....I think life just is how it is, what happens just happens.
Marwijn: It might be that 'meaning' gets more related with the immediateness, love, openness, fluency and meaninglessness of the heart...
Morshanna: evolution (life) has no ultimate purpose except to enable a life-form to thrive in whatever environment it finds itself. its meaning is to have change and adaptability within the larger entropic field of the universe, without attachment to the success of any particular species.
so personally, meaning is finding whatever conditions create 'success' for you in health and reproductive ability.
the social and cultural spheres are part of this drive. i.e., we can find satisfaction through contributing to the memes of society and culture, and this also feeds back into our state of health and reproductive ability - as we are social animals, so we increase our desirability if we have social 'success'.
By seeing the larger field of life beyond ourselves we can give up this need for 'meaning' that accords to these species-specific criteria; although some part of our biology may always feel the urge to complete itself through them.
Rachel: The meaning of life cannot be known with certainty. Intuitively, I feel there is a meaning to life, though I don't know what it is.
Adam: Inherently, life has no meaning other than to live, no purpose other than to survive and procreate. But we have minds that are meaning-making machines, so we are free to give life infinite possible meanings and purposes.
Rorayma: Life is living Itself effortlessly...
Laurent: Meaning is belief. Life doesn't need any belief to live. Belief is resistance to look.... or, said another way, it is lying. This resistance comes from fear of intimacy (or oneness), but even that doesn't exist. But it seems to be a game though... the game of not-looking, the game of meaning.
With that said, I also sense the harmony that life is growing towards. The love, expressed. The direction. But I feel we must talk on two different levels in order to tackle this.
The truth, and the dream. Like Course in Miracles puts it beautifully, in dreams, you can go from nightmare to happy dream.... and then wake up to no-dream. This would be where meaning could be considered, or purpose.
Ilona: So Laurent, what would be the meaning in truth? Do you see it there?
Marwijn: Truth is meaningless. Truth holds All.
A meaning is like a particle trying to hold Life. There is no way you can hold what you are. You are that what holds everything. And everything is not separate from where it is being hold. That is the Mystery, which is you.
And what would you say, Ilona?
And yet Truth is so generous. In holding all, there is a possibility for meanings to arise. But meaning is not separated from Truth. To not see the meaningless in the meaning, is not knowing yourself.
Ilona: I say that meaning is mind stuff, it can not be felt, experienced through senses, it's all just a story.
But I see that there is something more, like Laurent says, another level, where meaning is created trough love.
Marwijn: Mmm yeah... On the level of being in the heart there is only one meaning, which is indeed the meaning created through love. But there all gets more fluent and all linearity and causality fades. There stories become poetry.
Ilona: Not as much poetry as real change in people. Let's say this movement here. Is it meaningless? If it’s driven by love, can it be meaningless? Waking up and helping others, does that create meaning?
I'm looking into it and I see that real meaning does not need words to name it, it runs along love.
Marwijn: For me real change is Poetic.. And here I use the word in a different meaning then the word is used by others probably.
And Yeah "real meaning does not need words to name it, it runs along love" I am there with you!
Love to you and to this movement. Love to all...
Laurent: "I'm looking into it and I see that real meaning does not need words to name it, it runs along love." ~ Ilona.
Yes, hard to describe in words...but meaning rings a much deeper feeling than the mere letters that tries to point to it, that try to point to the general understanding of it. And it all leads to love. That's also my deep feeling.
The love I’m referring to is not a human emotion, although it can be included as effect. But it is this transformative seed that lies within each one's heart. The "outer" flow of love brings out the "inner", and transformation is exploding at its own speed from within. There's a dimension of recognition of that power inside, within us, and together with the annihilation of ego, that invites the seed to come out of the well.
This is getting too poetic now.
But I’m with you around the dynamic power of this.
Ilona: Love you too Marwijn.
I started this thread as we are getting guide book together and Laurent shared how he is working with people in retreats and help them see that nothing has meaning, which is very freeing.
I saw that nothing means anything before I found RT and it was devastating time for me. But now I'm starting to doubt if it's really the case.
So I wanted to run this by you guys.
Laurent: same here Love. That is actually one of the reason why I didn’t do video as of yet.
Needed somehow to get settle a little more with the acceptance of the mystery of it, as well as presenting some kind of a "system" of liberation that actually evolves everyday. Do u understand?
Ilona: We need to work this out.
Ilona: What you said about outer flow and inner explosion rings very true here.
Yes, and the love you talking about is not an emotion. It's like a new sensation, something that is far beyond what would be called love in normal way.
Maybe it's that love that is creating meaningful changes in people. And that would be creating meaning of life.
Laurent: There's something of a very deep and intimate recognition in the people that are exposed to that love, that force, that amazing power, a recognition that can take the form of sayings like "hey! you look so much like my brother, my son, my nephew, etc.." that I’ve been noticing with giggles for many times now.
What I sense, is that this is just the "acceptable outer picture or perception" of the literally un-believable oneness that is coming out now from It’s well inside. Along with this "looking alike" comes trust, and along with the varying of protection against it (against Love) transformation is happening, making its way up to the surface. The inner state is pictured automatically outside, so this can get VERY overwhelming. The amount of love that is seemingly given to the "carrier" of this recognition (in that case you or me) is the measure by witch transformation on all levels is taking place. By all levels I mean the observable ones on surface, body transforming, mind and clarity, emotions, perception.... and so many more I’m sure (it HAS to, it's a total experience, like a tsunami welling out from within.... or God showing up saying "Hello, this is Me now! Getting you ready for the ride of your life :)
I'm happy, in fact, to start sharing this here with you.
I feel it's time to move on. Hiding has been a tough battle.
LU is open to this, compared with RT. We already know no-self is a door. Well, how about a door on the most incredible mystery of all?
Ilona: This is what I'm trying to get to,
Gregory: great thread.. Ilona certainly asked the right question.. Turns out to be about the definition of the word meaning.. Seems like the feeling of no meaning before liberation is the old dualistic angst and negativity because the meaning of life cannot be found there in any satisfactory way.. Upon liberation everything becomes imbued with meaning which is actually a whole new level of consciousness in the apprehension of the reality behind dualistic appearance.. It is composed of elements like Love and Oneness and interconnection so life is felt in a whole new and very "meaningful" way..
Laurent: Yeah.... from emptiness rises up a transformed sense of meaning: the dis-covering of the uniting power: love. I've been tossing with the idea of empty awareness vs. dynamic love transforming all. It all seems to rise up from the same emptiness, with maybe some coloration to it, and the turbo that is the willing recognition of it. This is also where the polarities of male and female are coming back into play, this time as inspire and expire force, creation itself (whatever that means).
Marwijn: Yeah. We are this Dance between Emptiness and flowing Love.
We are Heart's kissing.
The Heart as well as the kissing.
Amy: I am so freaking glad you all are gravitating towards this! I always though EVERYTHING was special and tied together with Love. I called that God at the time, but that is just a word to name it. It is more about the energy of Love that constantly creates, protects, and destroys in a timeless manner.
Marwijn: Being the Source
Amy: This Source or Energy is both In us and Around us and for my personal sense of awe, I call it Divine or God.
Rorayma: Beautiful sweet offering...thanks to All...yes...Life is living itself effortlessly and as so, when it is seen through the veil of separation, life is love loving itself...life is the Celebration of Eternity
Amy: Holy crap, I am starting to feel my heart opening up. Love is starting to burbble!!
Rorayma: Heart singing Here Amy...♥
Ilona: I can say that love caries a flame. It can inflame another hearts, and it's not a common feeling of love, it's way much deeper and more powerful. That love can awaken and this is what we are doing here, generate love, pass it on, and ignite the other hearts.
When I was working back in summer with 4-6 people at the time, the love I felt was so strong, I was high on it for weeks, then it exploded my heart and opened it for good. That was like a second wave of awakening.
Amy: It is the confirmation that everyone was afraid to admit early on. Love is God/Life/Us
Rorayma: Wide open...indescribable...!
Ilona: I don't know Ami, if love = life. I think that life points to totality, which includes everything. Not just love, but hate and suffering. Love is like a stream of light within life. it's not accessible unless heart has been open. Otherwise the love is just a shadow.
Amy: You are right, the heart has to be open, otherwise it is just shadow. But there are now people in that stream that can help give light to show the way. ♥
Gregory: Anyone thinks it is easier for women to feel and open up to this love than men?
Amy: Ilona, You know my greatest wish from the beginning was to have my heart unravel. This thread gave a HUGE tug on the chain. ♥
Gregory: I'm questioning the depth of my seeing today and part of this is some kind of anger thing that seems to prevent the complete cracking open of the heart again after it closed about five years ago following the death of my beloved wife from cancer.
Rorayma: ...As reading this ...mind collapsed...not two...but This, Here Now...
Amy: Gregory, I tend to think women can come to this point quicker only because of the fact they are caretakers by nature. They use their emotions to dictate life and men use their minds. It is conditioning too. I read somewhere that housewives have the greatest amount of ability to completely awaken due to being emotionally plugged in their surroundings.
Gregory: Sounds like a big part of it Amy ..
Ilona: maybe it's women's 'job' to wake the man.
Damon: Haha, Liberated Housewives. I like the sound of that.
Rorayma: Gregory, everything is already allowed to be...it is already loved as it is...Every emotion...feeling...thought...it is love...not as a sensation in the body only...but deeper...profound allowance ...
It is Divine...for no reason at all...but because It Is ♥
Rorayma:! Thank you ♥
Gregory: De nada .. gracias a ti tambien .
Maybe that should be liberat-ing housewives Damon?
Gregory: Ilona could be right.. They seem to be working on me!
Amy: It is an orgy of Love!
Gregory: Now this is what I call aftercare ! : ) ♥
A general big heartfelt thank you to all ♥
Amy: And to think I have been wrestling with devastaing energy in my gut for the past few weeks. And then just now, all collapsing in. ♥ The ones that are here right now riding in this stream can now confirm that Love is indeed transformational. Beyond all we ever thought with our minds.
Rorayma: Yes Amy...speechless...what a transformational power...no words...OMG ♥
Marwijn: Mmmm deleted my in between statement to join in the Overflow of Love.... Mmmm So beautiful!
Ilona: here, love in action. ♥
Marwijn: Yeah great!
Amy: Forever grateful for those who opened this up and those who rode in with me at the same. Rorayma and Gregory.
love is awkward and dangerous to everything of my world,
all of it. I feel very much broken, but roared open,
worthy venture here.
Silence is not a 'quiet venture into bliss'
just entrance into life's say of what's exactly what.
Ilona: As I read this, a huge wave washed over all body. I'm so thankful for this. ♥
Amy: I am afraid to breathe and that it could be temporary. Clarity and Love on this level is beyond what you think will happen. I guess time will tell if doubt and blockages come back.
Ilona: It's a wave, Ami. Relax into it. Feel it. Of course it will go down and up again, enjoy while it lasts. Xx
Could I put this on my blog? I could change names if first name is too much and one would rather stay private.
I think this could be a perfect entry for the blog, since it's so alive and full of transformational power.
Sandra: Amy, Gregory I tend to think women can come to this point quicker only because of the fact they are caretakers by nature. They use their emotions to dictate life and men use their minds. It is conditioning too. I read somewhere that housewives has the greatest amount of ability to completely awaken due to being emotionally plugged in their surroundings.<-------that sounds like a mind made story to me :-) Most of the great teachers are male LOL.
Who decides what love is? I seriously doubt in the big scheme there is even a differentiation between love and anything else. Everything comes from the one thing. Fuzzy, fluffy talk about love blah blah seems very new agey and off the track. I think there is by products of awakening but I doubt they need labels. Just saying :-)
Ilona: Who decides what love is? The one who feels it.
This thread was not a fuzzy talk, it may seem so, yes, but the alchemy was real. And the hearts got inflamed. It's not what mind can understand. That was the whole point of this long conversation.
Laurent: YES IT WAS. And Love has decided so even before starting it.
Marwijn: How it is for me is that in the process and deepening all is a by product. But there is no suspicious relating there. Al is GLORIOUS. And in fact there is not something kind of real and then there a by-products from that. All is One. There is no separation. All is Undivided Naturalness. And rushes of high energy are a possibility. And all what is being expressed there is the language of love which is completely senseless and insane for the linearity of the mind.
Amy: I will never forget yesterday. Words on the thread can't translate what was happening. The energy of Love and Truth was transformative for those that were there at that moment. ♥