Friday 22 July 2011

Conversation on DharmaOvergroung

I'm having a long conversation with Rin on DharmaOverground forum. Seems like Rin is not getting it, so I keep pointing and pointing...

Somewhere towards the end I get this message:

Hi Ilona, Rin. I wasn't looking for it but I got it.
Firstly, self and no self are the same experience.
It is experienced as self when we label it, "I".

When we notice observation happening, we label it as "I'm observing".
This creates a reference.point in space -in our mind/thoughts that we identify as I.
This also appears as a loop of self-observation, but it' s really just the mind linking the body as a POV, to the experience of observation. (personal point of view)

The mind has this habit of linking all experience to a POV -
Aka, this body, and calling it I.

Anyway, the result is that I experience no big change. Everything is the same - I just don't feel compelled to insist that a feeling of I or a self need to exist.

Not enlightenment either.

So I ask BH to email me.

As a courtesy, I am responding to your post on DharmaOverground.

In as much as you felt I got the point intellectually, I regret that I'm convinced you only have it intellectually yourself.
You appear to have convinced yourself otherwise, and I'm OK with that too.

I entered my comments in the thread as I felt that Rin was missing your point, and I wondered if a slightly different perspective might help. I also wanted you to know that your words had had some effect, somewhere.

Had I not been so keen to prove your words as all tautology, I would not have had an insight into this particular view of noself, and that has proven useful.

In addition, I can see that it is an experience that will deepen, if only because I see moment to moment, how the concept of self manifests - something I have been puzzling over for a while
The weight of habit is however, a little too strong for a full flowering, and must wait for either greater energy, or deeper seeing - neither of which will happen without additional meditative focus.


Thank you for your email.
I appreciate you writing to me.
I work with lots of people and I can not let myself assume, that one is through without serious investigation. If you got it on experiential level I'd like to ask you to show it to me, if it's ok.

There are lots of people who get it intellectually and this is great start. But seeing is different from believing that you see. I'm not convinced that you seen it simply because from few words that you said is quite difficult to judge.

If you would like to clarify the seeing further, to deepen it, we can talk. I'm here for you. :)

Questions that I ask at the end are:

What is BH?
What is real?
Is there separate self in real life?

Deepening is nothing else but cutting through conditioning, the less beliefs are in the system, the more effortlessness is felt, the more peace and freedom. It comes with time as once the illusionary self is exposed all that has been connected to it start falling off until there is nothing left.

So what was it that last bit that pushed you over? Just curious.

As for rin, he'll get it when he will start taking this seriously. Till now he has been trying to escape looking and that's why he is still stuck.

Much love,

Hi Ilona,

I had the opportunity to follow a link to ruthless truth, and I can happily say that on the basis of the descriptions there, that I have had the same experience. I'm fully aware that it is freedom, but also quite clear that it's not enlightenment. It's what has been referred to as the Sun state, or the Christ state, and in Zen, the goose out of the bottle. This freedom is merely the mastery of the conscious mind. enlightenment comes with mastery/union of the unconscious mind. To quote the Masters, First you lose "I", then you lose "am".

Unfortunately, this is only words, so little truth can be communicated. That's why I usually prefer to keep things short. I'm only writing at length because you've expressed your appreciation, and like you, I enjoy helping appreciative people.

BH is a label that points to a certain mode of expression. Call "me" Truth in action, or a particular form of Divine expression if you prefer, but it's all as much bullshit as truth. You can always call me BH, and work out what that means as we go along.
Reality is both nothing and everything, but in asking the question, you're missing the point.
No separate self in real life - No real life for that matter, but we keep living it anyway - and it's fun.

I was pleasantly pleased to find myself fearless, more clearheaded, engaged, but not emotional. But then again, I have lived on the edge of this state most of my life - I just needed to solve/see just how self-perception came about. I had already examined myself, and seen what appeared to be the Self watching the mind, and had thought it must be some kind of innate loop of awareness. Understanding the mechanism is important to me - don't know why - it just is, and it always works.

Thanks for the bit on deepening - I had already figured that out/seen it but it's nice to get confirmation.

It's a bit annoying at present, because every response keeps pulling the self back in. In that sense, the experience has faded but I've seen this moment before, and I know it will progress. I have seen, and I know that what I saw was the simple truth - no doubts there.

Anyway, what pushed me over the edge? I think it was my feeling a little kindness for you. You seemed to be reading a script, and your words seemed so canned that I felt you could do with a little nudge yourself. So I put my mind in harmony with the words you expressed, seeking to find where you were out of kilter. That required me to understand you and your point of view first, so I experimented with your POV, and asked myself "How can I put this, so it fits with my POV, but still remains true to what Ilona is expressing. That's when I understood the difference between seeing, and watching.

As to Rin, I felt a little sorry that he missed the point. I could see that you were not on his wavelength either, and tried to engage his attention at his own level, hoping to redirect his attention to where you were pointing. Unfortunately, I believe he wants enlightenment, not freedom, whereas I like to pick up interesting and useful baubles along the way. I'm confident he's not trying to escape either - That's either your conceit, or your misunderstanding, but if you really are free yourself, you'll understand me, and work through it.

Whatever you do though, please don't mistake this for enlightenment - no matter how deep it goes - I won't.

PS: I don't see how you could get this intellectually - it requires dropping the intellect and just see.



My heart filled with joy while reading your email. :)))

I'm deeply touched and amazed at the same time. You are the first that got back to me who popped just by reading! This brings huge waves of appreciation and hope that what I do here is actually taking a new level. It seems possible now that those who are ready can see through illusion just by reading some text! Wawawywa!

Thank you so much.
It brings in more inspiration to release a book, a book that would set people free from grasp of imaginary self.

Just to clear, i have no illusion that THIS is enlightenment. No at all. It's a first step, real step towards full realisation. It is a real step into freedom and peace of mind, liberation is a better word, but even that can not describe IT.

I may call it enlifement. Hihi.

As for Ilona, since seeing through illusion of self life has become joyful, freer, she stopped reacting, stopped getting hurt emotionally, even in extreme intense situations there is calm inside and some quiet giggle. ;)

Look at BH as a character. Story is playing out, character is real, it's got it's values, likes, dislikes, preferences. But it's fiction. Real fiction. Real story.

Yes, I know, reality is not what it seems, no real life as you say, but THIS is, it does not disappear when you stop believing it. It is life's life, life life-ing. And seeing fictional character playing out the role is a step forward.
Like in zen bull teaching, seeing no self is only a stage, far from the end, but absolutely necessary in order to proceed further.

While working with people I see how first it's accepted intellectually. Then seeing happens. I look at all this liberation as untangling the confusion in the mind. That's all it is- unquestioned belief. Once looked at closely it vanishes. Like Santa example.

As for rin, he is so full of belief, it's difficult for him. First we dissolve beliefs, then looking happens. But I see that he is starting to look. Yes, he wants enlightenment like everyone else, but he can't have it. "He" needs to drop. It will.. ;)

I don't know if you read my blog, but I find it that sharing this is the best help that I can offer for my fellow friends- humans. I'd recommend to start writing a blog and share this message. I feel urgency to spread this as I feel it's enough suffering already. And if you could see through just by reading, so can others :))

Much love!

I see that BH is not clear completely, but I still wanted to share it.


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