Sunday, 7 August 2011

Mr L is Processing...


L:
Indeed good morning to you dear Ilona.

My name is L, I live in france.
Last weekend, I spent many hours in utter conviction, realisation, seeing that there is no self at all, no me, no center and nothing personal in the life labelled L's.

This came after years of intense non stop seeking. I ve seen it, shared it, with great clarity... Many many times... but frustration and especially doubt of self had me somehow "buy again" the plan of distraction, afraid of the fear, of the protective mechanism.

So, in short, yoyo between quiet nothingness and agitated I-thought automatic reactions.

The suffering gets so intense at times... but the suffering is also a push to remember what I Truly want...get back to God feeling within... kick doubt and fear's ass, and back to looking.

Talking about looking or seeing, I sense and see that it is tainted, and that there is a judgment ( subtle or gross) of some of what is noticed, but also a fear, a "on guard" constant feeling that is like a cloud of agitated energy that is talkative and that filters the looking.
It is filtered as a subtle "my looking".

I've " encountered" your web site for a few days, after last weekend's amazing  no-mind no-I state realised, and I've been staying up till 5 am since then, reading and doing the answering thing as best as I could with Tom, D and jessica... and all the times I lived it if I were them.

Tonight... 4:02... I go ahead and write to you, asking you if you would take my hand through all this.
I know i' m ready to go all the way... through a door that is already open, but clouded by a hanging belief in "not good enough" , fear, and doubting  of my own seeing.

Warm thanks in advance.

Much much love,
L



Ilona:
Hi L,

Thank you very much for writing to me. It is time to resolve this once and for all.

I'll ask you some question and please answer with full honesty, only when you are ready.

1. What are your expectations? What do you think will happen when you 'go through'?

2. Is there a self in real life at all?

3. What are precise feelings inside when you think about question above? Can you look at them, bring them closer and identify where in the body they are felt? Can you look what is behind?

4. What is fear? Just look at it, let it be, and see if it can reveal itself to you.


Thank you.

It's early morning here too. I'm in uk ;)

   
 (2 days ago)
L:   
Yeah!!!!
Still up with incredible energy... still looking and looking... and getting clearer.
Thank you so very much for your response.
I ll do my best to be precise and cut through doubt and resistance.

> What are your expectations? What do you think will happen when you 'go through'?


The end of suffering. The returning to a life of clarity, love and wonderful power behind me, with this time a full stop on the belief in "I control". I say returning cause I've lived some magic times 7 years ago... and although I understand it is not kosher to cling to past, I still want to be honest and not hide anything from this processing.

Btw, it feels like the main thing will be to feel the difference between past spiritual intellectual and/or experiential knowledge, and what is actually the case, what rings true for me.

So, what else do I expect?
To make it! To succeed finally with this project. (nice to see this, for this looks like a set up not to succeed...)

There Is also this thing with dying... some hero stuff... and resurrecting into Life.

Of course I ve had the actual experience and seeing of the simplicity of What is, but what I wrote might be helpful.

What will happen when I go through?
I don't know. But there's a great wanting to go through. Btw, it felt like many times in these 7 years I almost went through with a lingering strong mind wanting to control, coach me to maintain the high and protect me against falling back... which of course happened in the experience.
As I write all this, there is fear of falling into some void... nothingness, and maybe suffering big time... awful stuff!!!

> Is there a self in real life at all?

Less and less. I understand that all is automatic dance and play of energies and various complicated patterns, mental patterns, and I love to notice that noone is actually behind anyone's eyes!
It's not a constant realisation though. It comes and goes, although it seems to stick more and more... as a knowledge that greets my consciousness more and more... and, ouf, allows me to RELAX!!


>
What are precise feelings inside when you think about question above? Can you look at them, bring them closer and identify where in the body they are felt? Can you look what is behind?



Fear, uneasiness, stop breathing, breathing very slow... and surfacy... Lower back pressure, solar plexus pressure, nausea coming, throat heat and scratching, belly inside movements,

Also, some sadness, wanting to cry now, energy flowing in arms, shoulders,  ..upper   chest burning...
all this as I let myself feel what's coming up....

a lot of energy, loud buzzing in ears (very often) , thirst....

What is behind? Do you mean in terms a someone there? Or as other feelings hiding underneath?
If it is the first, then I don't see an I there. There seems to be one behind the looking though...
But knowing that I is a label, and cannot see anything, that relaxes the looking.

You see, it's always been a danse between tension and relaxing... wondering if I m not so much attached to both... resisting final release... playing guilty for bad choices... staying thus in control and power... Realising more and more that I don't control anything..
but this realisation is not yet taken to heart.


> What is fear? Just look at it, let it be, and see if it can reveal itself to you.

An energy, a protection against ??, a tension.

Waiting to know your comments on this first.

Much love,
L
................................   
hello again!

as for the last question, about fear,
i see that fear protects me from doubt and confusion,
for doubt and confusion (=not knowing.... intellectually!!) means great suffering,
feeling unanchored and awful.
that's why (maybe) I hold on to it so much.
Fear takes very often the shape of a quick contraction/stab in the solar p^lexux, like a trying to cut whatever has been "seen" or EVOKED from coming into play.
So there's alsoo the belief that fear protects me from my own mind, which I fear.
Which i dont trust, which power can take me high but also very low.
so i developped a almost automatic stabbing in the stomach that will PROTECT me from my own beast.
that's the screwed up of my mind.


as i write this, i feel like questionning the existence of the I or me feeling behind all of these ideas.

thank you again for your patience in these early steps of exchanging.

Love,
L
   

  What are your expectations? What do you think will happen when you 'go through'?

The end of suffering. The returning to a life of clarity, love and wonderful power behind me, with this time a full stop on the belief in "I control". I say returning cause I've lived some magic times 7 years ago... and although I understand it is not kosher to cling to past, I still want to be honest and not hide anything from this processing.

Sufferings ends when sufferer drops.


 Btw, it feels like the main thing will be to feel the difference between past spiritual intellectual and/or experiential knowledge, and what is actually the case, what rings true for me.

The past drops too..



 So, what else do I expect?
 To make it! To succeed finally with this project. (nice to see this, for this looks like a set up not to succeed...)
As I is exposed and belief drops, there is no one left to succeed.
 There Is also this thing with dying... some hero stuff... and resurrecting into Life.

>Nothing dies. Nothing that is not real can ever die. Look- can batman die in real life?

 Of course I ve had the actual experience and seeing of the simplicity of What is, but what I wrote might be helpful.

 What will happen when I go through?
 I don't know. But there's a great wanting to go through. Btw, it felt like many times in these 7 years I almost went through with a lingering strong mind wanting to control, coach me to maintain the high and protect me against falling back... which of course happened in the experience.
 As I write all this, there is fear of falling into some void... nothingness, and maybe suffering big time... awful stuff!!!
>Yes, there is void, here is nothingness and the fear of it.


>> Is there a self in real life at all?

Less and less. I understand that all is automatic dance and play of energies and various complicated patterns, mental patterns, and I love to notice that noone is actually behind anyone's eyes!
 It's not a constant realisation though. It comes and goes, although it seems to stick more and more... as a knowledge that greets my consciousness more and more... and, ouf, allows me to RELAX!!


>
Good stuff, but there is still self somewhere hidden. We will look at it together.

>> What are precise feelings inside when you think about question above? Can you look at them, bring them closer and identify where in the body they are felt? Can you look what is behind?

 Fear, uneasiness, stop breathing, breathing very slow... and surfacy... Lower back pressure, solar plexus pressure, nausea coming, throat heat and scratching, belly inside movements,
 Also, some sadness, wanting to cry now, energy flowing in arms, shoulders,  ..upper   chest burning...
all this as I let myself feel what's coming up....
 a lot of energy, loud buzzing in ears (very often) , thirst....


Wow, a lot of resistance here. It's ok. Just let it be there and don't push it away. It's a friend at this point. Honour the feelings.

 What is behind? Do you mean in terms a someone there? Or as
other feelings hiding underneath?
 If it is the first, then I don't see an I there. There seems to be one behind the looking though...
But knowing that I is a label, and cannot see anything, that relaxes the looking.

So you found the looker! Look at the looker, is it real? Or is it just another label?
 


 You see, it's always been a danse between tension and relaxing... wondering if I m not so much attached to both... resisting final release... playing guilty for bad choices... staying thus in control and power... Realising more and more that I don't control anything.but this realisation is not yet taken to heart.


It's ok, we'll get there. 

What is fear? Just look at it, let it be, and see if it can reveal itself to you.

> An energy, a protection against ??, a tension.

Look at fear as a protection mechanism. It is guarding something. It's doing it's job very well. Bow to it. Honour it. Thank it for doing it's job. Look at fear again. What is behind? Is there anything needed to be protected? 

> Waiting to know your comments on this first.
>



> hello again!
>
> as for the last question, about fear,
> i see that fear protects me from doubt and confusion,
> for doubt and confusion (=not knowing.... intellectually!!) means great suffering,
> feeling unanchored and awful.
> that's why (maybe) I hold on to it so much.

What is or that you know for sure? I mean really know, not believe?
All opinions, knowing and knowledge are learned from others. What do you know?


> Fear takes very often the shape of a quick contraction/stab in the solar p^lexux, like a trying to cut whatever has been "seen" or EVOKED from coming into play.
> So there's alsoo the belief that fear protects me from my own mind, which I fear.

Belief, only belief, fear- false evidence appearing real.



  Which i dont trust, which power can take me high but also very low. so i developped a almost automatic stabbing in the stomach that will PROTECT me from my own beast.that's the screwed up of my mind.
As we free the fear all this is gonna drop. Trust it.
ago)
   
Thank you dear Ilona.

Nothing dies. Nothing that is not real can ever die. Look- can batman die in real life?

Well, no, Batman, Santa or Spiderman cannot die in real life.
By the same token, me cannot die in real life either.
It is a label.
Can L die? Same. It is a bunch of letters put together... and underneath them no entity found.

You say "nothing dies". I dont know that , like i know that batman doesn't.
Isnt this just a belief, compare to batman I see that it cannot die in real life?


Good stuff, buy there is still self somewhere hidden. We will look at it together.

cool. :-)

So you found the looker! Look at the looker, is it real? Or is it just another label?

No it isn't... there is noone there looking... no entity.
but that is mixed with doubt.... or, better said, doubting energies are accompanying this....
"you wont keep it... wont be able to, etc..."

It's ok, we'll get there.

I love you

Look at fear again. What is behind? Is there anything needed to be protected? 
Let me release the wanting to find out....
it is protecting me. like a friend, a dear friend.
i'm happy to see this.
Then me is two letters.... so there isnt anyone to be protected.


What is or that you know for sure? I mean really know, not believe?
All opinions, knowing and knowledge are learned from others. What do you know?

I wrote:i see that fear protects me from doubt and confusion,
> for doubt and confusion (=not knowing.... intellectually!!) means great suffering,
> feeling unanchored and awful.
well, it is what i came up withj after looking so many times.
I BELIEVE that fear, the jumping "be careful" sensation, arises when the possibility of loosing control is felt or sensed or believed.
I also BELIEVE that my experience showed me that "loosing a piece of knowledge" is experienced as terror..... as being really threatened.... then a chain reaction of panic... confusion... hate and resistance.

BUT your question, the second part of it, got me really looking.
"What do I know?" Well, in truth nothing.
All is based on past information.
When i ask if I know for sure, all goes blank and i actually like the state of depth, slowness, emptiness that puts me in.
So it is NOT TRUE that I dont like or fear the state of not knowing.

If i linger awhile on the question, like I did, I can know that experience is happening.
And as soon as I go to "knowing" what is observable, with seeming cause and effects, alll i know is bullshit.
In this state of seeing, it all fits perfectly nice....
when i move out of it.... and start to get automatically interested in things, agitative labelling AND "on-guard seeing" is on again.

I want to adress the on-guard looking... fearful of the rising thought.
There is the feeling that this on-guard seeing is there cause I need to block and process ALL that comes up, and quickly.
This is so tiring.

I tried releasing wanting to catch thoughts, understand, classify, etc....
It's a mechanism that seems to be aimed at reassuring me.
That's why i talked about protective shield of mind.
But it is protecting the sense of me.
When i see that it is vacant, all relaxes :-)
When i dont, fire alarm is on.

Question: you say that this is only belief.
And i can see it.
But how does it drop?
How do i let go of holding on to it?


much love and thanks.
I love this.

L
days ago)
   
Hello again!!

another detail: the thought-suggestion of doing (let's do this, do that, dont do this, should i do this....) comes up with great uneasiness.... the "famous" stabbing... that i called fear of doubting... and of falling into suffering again.

but I read and agreed on the fact that instead of feeling victim of this, I could start to see that the other side of this coin is that this fear allows me to believe I'm in control!
When I see that right away, it all relaxes again.
But doesnt this puts too much emphasis on the mind, the intellect knowing and having to remember the "reason"?

this is a headache.
It feels that the answer is in a totally different way.

Love,
L

   
Ok L, I see you are right at the 'gate'.

Let's examine the sense of 'me'

Can you close your eyes and find the feeling of aliveness, being, am.. That feeling that is constant no matter what, no matter when. 
Stay with it, notice breathing happening...

Then focus on mind- thoughts arising, labelling happening.
Sense of being + labelling= 'sense of me'

Is it a sense of self? Or is it impersonal, open sense of aliveness?

Consider an animal, let's say it's a cat. It feels alive and aware, does he need  'me' to sense aliveness?

Watch how mind labels everything without a pause, it's just carries on : I hear the sound, I breath, I feel, I sense...

Stay with it until you notice that there is no 'me' labelling, but labelling is happening and most common label is 'I' or 'me'. Just a word preceding other words.

Can you see the difference between experiencing feelings and sensations and experience of mind labbeling all that? It's ALL going on by itself. No driver anywhere. 

Can you see that there is no one looking, but looking is just happening and there is no you seeing, but seeing just is. 



Let me know how that goes.
Much love.

   


> Hello again!!
>
> another detail: the thought-suggestion of doing (let's do this, do that, dont do this, should i do this....) comes up with great uneasiness.... the "famous" stabbing... that i called fear of doubting... and of falling into suffering again.
>

At this point examine doubt itself. What is it, how does it work? What is behind?


> but I read and agreed on the fact that instead of feeling victim of this, I could start to see that the other side of this coin is that this fear allows me to believe I'm in control!

There is no victim, only a story. There is no control, only a story that thoughts run like a old tape.



> When I see that right away, it all relaxes again.
> But doesnt this puts too much emphasis on the mind, the intellect knowing and having to remember the "reason"?
>

All this will drop, don't worry for now..Let or just pass by.

> this is a headache.
> It feels that the answer is in a totally different way.
>
> Love,
> L


The answer is not what 'you' expect. Don't expect, assume anything, just take a look. What is real?

   
Ok L, I see you are right at the 'gate'.

Let's examine the sense of 'me'

Can you close your eyes and find the feeling of aliveness, being, am.. That feeling that is constant no matter what, no matter when. 

Ok. I seem to have difficulties finding the feeling of aliveness. Dont know where to look for it. Frustration and resistance, talking about how i am failing at this... (self doubt)
There was at the beginning a sense of happiness, of joy....
but i was trying too hard with the mind, the attention, to grasp the answer, to feel the feeling of beingness.
I tend to be more natural with the sense of knowingness or awareness that the experience is happening....
but i must say that the efforting created a feeling of awfulness in the solar plexus....
nausea.... and i see some heavy reactions to that feeling.... so that builds up in a quick rolercoster of darkness.
It's good to have seen that and somehow to show it to you (it reassures me a little, and it is here, felt!)

Stay with it, notice breathing happening...

Then focus on mind- thoughts arising, labelling happening.
Sense of being + labelling= 'sense of me'

resistance doesnt allow me to go further in seeing anything.
as soon as I intend to answer, to put my mind on a question, a doing you're asking me to accomplish, it diverses attention quickly.... feelings of hate and fear...

ok. So you told me to honour the fear and resistance.
I see them as protective shield... protecting me from disappearing .
I ask the feelings to tell me what's up.
"We're victim!!" they say. I answer no, we're not.
what are you protecting?
"you".
Let me see and find out who and where is this "you", this "me" that's obvioulsy not here now, and not aware either, right? for all that is aware is this here and now.
Isnt "me" a word? Isnt you a word I hear?
Ans who is this I that hears?
where is it?
What's left when the letter I is seen as just a letter, and dropped?
Nothing but this empty cognizing space.

thoughts of "self-doubt".... arising.... with less glue.... from farther...
To whom do they appear?
moi?
what's left behind three french letters?
well.... just a feeling in the stomach that is just felt, by noone!!

Dear Ilona, thanks for your patience, but i felt an urge from within to write all this down... and, as i was writing it, a release was also felt in the body and mind.

some questions:
am i not using the enquiry in order to avoid feelings?
didnt you find that it smelled like a war zone a little?
and somehow "I got" finally on top of it again?
that's where the label " I control" kicks in, and i'm left believing that I had to be on top,
i needed the mind and the courage, the desire.... the quickness, and all the rest of the weaponry to fight back.
Isnt this ridiculous???
Isnt this just thoughts, false labelling?

can i just stop listening to this?
do you sense that the fear of mind is real?

BACK to "sense of being + labbeling= sense of me"

again, sense of being is not clear.
is this labelling OF the sense of being, or just the activity of labelling you're refering to?

i suppose the activity of labelling + the sense of existence, of being present makes the sense of "me", right?

Well, in this case, the sense of being present is impersonnal.... more like "something is here, must be present in order to feel and see, and even experience doubt"

Where the sense of labelling.... or the activity of labelling might be more personnal.

Wait!
I actually feel like "I exist" (personnal) and I label. I speak. ... when the thought "ahh.... it feels better now" just came up, I noticed that I believed that I was speaking this thought that I made up!
But I havent, right?
There's no I to make up any thought!
It was just the thought "It feels much better now" + the I thought, right????
And that combination gave me the impression that I speak this sentence.
and that I make up a thought..... that there is an entity here thinking this thought.
Whereas you say that thoughts just appear by themselves.
They do!!
But i dont always see this.
I get caught up in identification with it.
Cool....

Is it a sense of self? Or is it impersonal, open sense of aliveness?


so i question where is I, and what's left is open space of impersonnal awareness.
i'm still not too sure about aliveness...
although i sense or feel that the recognition is coming.

Consider an animal, let's say it's a cat. It feels alive and aware, does he need  'me' to sense aliveness?
"Me" as in a personnal sense of existing?
or me as two letters?
for two letters cannot be needed in order to function.
The dog here feels indeed alive and aware.
Can he sense aliveness?
Is he conscious of being alive?

It feels like such an effort for me to naturally sense it!!!



Watch how mind labels everything without a pause, it's just carries on : I hear the sound, I breath, I feel, I sense...
Does it?
I dont hear anything when I pay close attention to it!
I gaze at surroundings, and i dont hear "i see the tree" or "this is the sound of a clock".
Maybe it is going on always except when I want to find it out.
And maybe this I that wants to find it out IS the mind itself.

I notice that I have difficulties to let stuff happen by themselves without doing something with them. For when I wait for a thought to come up, and for "me" to let it out without screwing around with it, or without any agenda, nothing happens.
This noticing is more of a "lucky moment" of catching a thought arise and saying to myself "hey! that thought came out of nowhere!!! So i cannot control any of it"
UNTIL i forget and fall for identification again.

You see?
This is where I feel that my noticing is NOT natural, but forced and biased.... and i call it "on guard".

I hope this is not too much for you.
It is helpful for me to see that I BELIEVE all this.


Stay with it until you notice that there is no 'me' labelling, but labelling is happening and most common label is 'I' or 'me'. Just a word preceding other words.

Is labelling believing?
Because when i pay attention, there's no labelling, like no words are spoken.
there was a minute ago... I started to sing (in truth, a song came out of my mouth), and when I looked at it... like in understanding it... almost on purpose... I heard a subtle "I sing".
Ahh!
So there is no I singing, just singing happening.
I get that.
But it almost feels like I ask the mind to label.
Well, we'll see, because i'm not sure.

So i noticed staring at the bottle of water, and a sense/feeling of wondering if we should drink or not. The words were not that obvious.... more like a movement of feeling. So when I make a point of speaking, or hearing the words on the feelings that it gets clearer. But it feels like a little forced by "me"..... hence the sense of doership and control.
Like my help is needed, I must do something to MAKE AWAKENING HAPPEN.... or actually, to make THINGS happen.

I understand it's the illusion.
Please let's see through this and be FREE of this.

Can you see the difference between experiencing feelings and sensations and experience of mind labbeling all that? It's ALL going on by itself. No driver anywhere. 

Ah ah! Sweet way to be brought through the processing...
It's not the same thing, but I can sense already that the sensations and feelings just happen by themselves, sometimes caused by thinking.
And I'm willing to see that I am not in charge of thinking or labelling, and that it happens by itself, with no driver.

You know my dear, I'm sure I've seen that so many times before, but it's good that i show you how i forget everything.... how the mind forgets stuff, and it feels like I'm back to the bottom of the ladder again... having to work my way up.

Waow! a LOT of I and me there!!!

Can you see that there is no one looking, but looking is just happening and there is no you seeing, but seeing just is. 

YES I CAN!!!!
amazing!


Exhausted but happy.

MUCH LOVE

   
Wow, L, that was some hardcore processing. 

Good stuff.  Very good.


Now take a break, go outside, breath some fresh air and let it all sink in. Especially the last bit that seeing just is.

While outside, watch nature, see how everything is wiggling, moving, notice the totality of all that is. Notice that the body is just as part of that totality as everything else.  Not separate from environment, not special either. 

Don't make it difficult. Simplify.
Truth is simple, simplest thing ever. Confusion/illusion is complicated.

The sense 'I exist', awareness, is that which is always here now. Impersonal. Spacious. Look there, it's simple. Whatever you call it is just a label.



Write what you notice that is obvious.
Is there a manager that controls what is?


With love.

   
Hi Ilona.

thank you for the precious help.
as you noticed, this ends with tiredness...
feelings of resistance are still hanging around.
the cool thing is that I treat them as the protection they are.
i sense that they are protecting a sense of "me" that they "believe" i am,
when in truth "they" obviously dont know and cannot know what i am.
So i easily enquire what's behind the protection, and what or who is being protected...
to find noone.
empty space.

i also enquire into the label "me" or "I", to find that no-thing is left there but empty awareness.

So, even if i feel it was not a very successful seeing outside, i went out, breathed, and looked.
I saw that looking just is, happens by it self.
I didnt get very clear on the totality being one thing....
with each part of it, including my body, were just doing their thing,
like i saw it clearly this morning.

Maybe we'll do that again tomorrow.
I would love to be simple and easy with this obviousness.
because i know it is.

at least we've uncovered some obstacles.

I'm going to sleep now.

i love you.
thank you.

   
I love you too, L.
Sleep well and we will speak tomorrow.
:)

   
Good morning dear

I slept a lot!!! :-)
Upon waking I started to toss around the idea that all I know is belief.
And I saw that it was actually the case.
I also saw that this is the mind's knowledge we re talking about.
All second-hand unsure stuff.
So all that the mind (me) knows is obviously coming with doubt. The doubting feature of the mind is necessary ingredient to all belief based knowledge.
Asking if I'm sure 100% is a cool way to stop the mind and the search for a moment.

I also saw that I enjoy of course the state of no-mind no-search that has been induced (I believed!!) by this enquiry...by the realisation that all "I" know is beliefs.
So the next thing the mind does (Labelled 'i do) is to try hard to remember that all knowledge is belief...so that I will feel again the quiet peace of no-mind.
But I saw that no-mind is not a state per say.
It is always present as just seeing, impersonal and free of beliefs or labels... free of me or even I.
So it is not something that needs to be remembered... because  remembering is a mind feature, and a mind feature won't get to no-mind... won't help me feel the peace that is here always.
Also, I saw that everytime I feel agitation, it means that I am driven by a belief. And mostly by the belief that I am separate from peace... and that seeing must be, can be attained or realised, and of course believing this leads to search in the mind, protecting the mind as me to get me there.
Cool.

Shall we continue ?

I m all ears ;-)

Love,
L
I:   
Awesome! You see now that no belief is true and for first time really you can use your own brain. This is such an important discovery.

Think for yourself, that was how I started...

So tell me now, is there a self in any shape or form in reality? Was it ever?

What is self, how does it work?

What is L? Hint- look at the character L.

Looking forward to your email. :))
 

Think for yourself, that was how I started...

So tell me now, is there a self in any shape or form in reality? Was it ever?

No there isnt.
right now, which is the only moment that is, there is noone here but seeing and typing and knowing that this is typing.
Ilona, that certainty that flows now from me I know is coming from myself, my real self.
i also see that what is typing now is doubt, or belief in smaller me.
seeing that me is a label...
back in the incredible... un-believ-able obviousness that I exist as this seeing that is pure.

no there is no self in real life, as you say.
there are forms and shapes and experiencing, but no someone except I... or awareness.

What is self, how does it work?

a supposition, a bunch of beliefs put together as cluster.
a point of view that is supposed.
it works by not being seen as a lifeless belief.
and when it is not seen by Seeing that it is just some kind of a filter, well, then Seeing seems to forget and take itself for that filter....
for a someone, a self, a person.

What is L? Hint- look at the character L.
The character L is that cluster of memories, experiences, souvenirs, likes and dislikes based on "his" story.
A noun, a word, a name....
just like "me", it is fictitious.
there is no L right now.
or we could say that there is no America, for example.
There is a continent and belief on top, or label, right?

so the character L is the hero of this dream I seem to be stuck with everymorning upon awakening.

the stuckness to this character and story is the lack of looking at the fact that I am not a belief, but the ever present seeing that is present and seeing all this.
Isnt the question, then "who do i take myself to be?"

Looking forward to your email. :))

i 'm happy to give you this email.... all together with the smell of "but's" that are used to lingering around this clarity.

love
L

Hi Ilona,
i cant wait to have your answer.
i mean , i feel impatient...
i see that there is impatience, wanting to hide it by sounding spiritual,
i see that the mind is labelling this feeling of lack (another label)
i see that it actually goes round and round to find and secure a cause to the sensation/feeling.

i've been looking at the way things are happening and working.
energies are felt
mind (thoughts) is labelling... which gives a feeling of understanding, of security,
and that IS the controler !!!
just a feeling, a sense of securing knowledge through labelling and then classifying.

who wants to understand?
me?
not true!
i mean a label is wanting.... not true!!!
nobody is wanting anything.

movements of grasping are happening.


the suffering comes when I believe I am the one wanting to understanding, right?


lots of love.
thank you to allow me to write as I feel....
and thus to TRUST my seeing.


L! This is IT. What you see is what is. Not through labels, but directly. I'm really happy for you and i like how you describe it- unbelievable obviousness.

So my next question is:
How does it feel to be liberated?


And a side note. Real self? Can you look for other words here, cause calling IT self only confuses everyone.
Try to find something else to label. That's how people are hooked on looking for real self, when there isn't any.

I, awareness- this also needs to be clarified. Expand on that. Is there an I? Is awareness personal?

...............................
Hahaha!
Impatience is quite interesting at this moment, feeling rush and wanting to get over with it :) burning away in rapid fire.  Burn, baby, burn.

Yes, brain is processing. Keep focus on truth, pay attention to the obvious, that alone has great power to cut through.

Let's talk about programming and conditioning of a human. How does it work? Look at brain with the brain. What is being noticed?

Hi Ilona

How does it feel to be liberated?

resting.

i must write down that the attraction to doubting is showing up.
when you wrote what i wrote, "Unbelievable awareness", mind says "well, you saw this,
but where is it now?" and that would tend to use the mind to search for unbelievable awareness.... with the sense of unsecurity that is inherent in all the mind has to say.

Woaw!
when i try to write about doubts, the typing is unsure, it goes slowly.... then in the sentence, certainty is picking up the line, and the rest is ultra clear and typing is so fast!!
how does that feel?
GREAT!!!

Real self? Can you look for other words here, cause calling IT self only confuses everyone.
Try to find something else to label. That's how people are hooked on looking for real self, when there isn't any.

Are you saying that the labels are the only thing that cause confusion???
YES....
and then NO, it's the holding to them that's causing the pain and confusion, right?
the labels will always be confused, right?
doubt comes hand in hand with labelling, right?
that 's what I SAW.

So, I could call it THAT which knows and sees

Is there an I? Is awareness personal?

There is no I.
(I just saw this and that's it! i say! :-))

how do i know if awareness, that which knows and sees, is personnal?
right now, i dont know anything about all this!!!
but i'm freeking happy about not knowing!!!

it seems that awareness is personal...
but awareness cannot be personnal.
first, there is no person!!!
second, there is no limits to this thing THAT which sees and knows.
third, when I see that it imprignates everyuthing everywhere, "in front of" my body...
and when i see that my body is also in it, and when i see that i'm not separate from THAT,
well, i conclude that it isnot personal.

DEAREST ILONA,
would you feel and tell me when it is only intellectual?
or when it is listening to the doubting feature of labelling/understanding?

i kind of go from clear to doubt quite quickly.
wait!!!
do i know that for sure?
no.

i love you
I:   

Let's talk about programming and conditioning of a human. How does it work? Look at brain with the brain. What is being noticed?

brain labels everything and pulls its sense of security from it, from its own labelling.
so sense of security is equivalent to past non-changing state of "staying.

when you say look at brain with brain.... i dont get it.... do you mean look at brain?
how can i lookk at brain?

anyway, when i look at the idea of programming, then the brain fires informations, what it knows on the idea...
if the road is clear of feelings that are labelled (by the same brain) as needing to take care of, or "danger".
what brain knows on the idea of programming is: past experiences that have been labelled. Labelling is coming from outside source, obviously, because labels are made of langage. And langage is only learnt later....

langage is learnt at home, through the famlily's conditionnings.
within it the emotions and feelings that are associated with it.
right now, the brain slows down.... a passage of not sure.....

all that is being looked, watched.
by whom?
i dont know.

"i dont know" is also a label, right?
is there a feeling of unsure.... no labels coming... and then the labelling shoots "I dont know"?
i guess it happens like that.
and all I is is part of the labelling.

brain, as i watched your link, is always looking for securing the sense of existing as me.
but this is not direct looking, although it is very close to what i wrote above.
and what i wrote above came from my own observing.
So brain is always activated by worry?
worry that there is no self? noone present to be here?
does the brain know the name tag is only this?
and does it hide and protect this from being seen?
is it afraid to be discovered? is it labelling a sense of shame and guilt because of this fraud it knows about?

that cannot be, right?
the brain cannot know anything, other that past information with which conditionning of survival and pleasure toss around.?

that is what we call understanding... but it isnt clarity, nor seeing!!
it is brain tossing around with conditionning... with sights and smells and tastes and feelings and emotions labelled


Awesome.

Let's compare brain to computer processor. What do you see?

Look at beliefs as programs.

It's fun to look at things with fresh look. Love reading what you find. Give me some more!
Love you!!

Where is it intellectual and where is seeing? It's a play of both. Now when there is no one behind thought play is fee flowing.
Mind did not disappear, just attachment got a huge hall in it. For a while here mind was like the best amusement park. It's exploration of ideas, flashes of insights, seeing life without through different lens.

You can really sharpen the mind here, by starting a blog and writing all you see as you see for everyone's benefit. Yours most of all. You have a great peace of equipment here, an amazing tool, that I'd to be loved and used.
Doubt is your friend. It's showing that you don't take anything without checking it first. Honour it. :)

 I'm really pleased to meet you.

   
I love your words!!

Your idea of opening a blog is very good, but i feel it's already the case.

your words give me more and more trust in my own seeing.
for some reason that i dont know, a wave of fear and doubt came along about 5 years ago, and even if the clarity, the opening was always here, the resistance was too hard to deal with.
I guess everything has a purpose.

When you say that i have a great tool, you're talking about the mind, the brain, right?
it's great indeed to see it this way, as a tool, without attachment as me.
and I agree, some amazing stuff can come out of it.

You know, when I first got some experiences of light, 7 years ago, i was SO amazed at the genius that was coming out of me, of my brain!!!
I mean amazing!
I was "receiving" not just flashes, but sometimes full minutes of pure potentiality, totally electrifying my whole system.
Any subject I would put my interest on would just light up and reveal so much!!!
I didnt know what to think or make of this.
Just that the joy and the love that comes with it enlightened my whole world.
Clarity about truth... oneness.... Plan.... light....love....mathematics, physics, litterature... I mean, you name it!!

I suppose that identification was still running... at least i remember times where I could not let go of wanting stuff, although I saw the Love that was loving and guiding all of my moves.
Maybe I got scared of so much power...
i dont know.

But anyhow, it's been a crazy week, and all is conspiring again to help me see and trust and let go of listening to the voice of doubt as me, once and for all.
See, when I started to write these last words, the typing got faster, the level of energy as well.... i'm sure you're familiar with what i write you tonight.

Looking at the brain... looking at all my moves as brain programming has been great and wonderful. It creates the space of disidentification from mind, that comes with high energy... with high and a speed up of hightened clarity.... a state that I know already.

Once the energy gets a little lower (after eating for example), the brain starts to label this as trouble and starts to panic a little.... from a little to a lot.
Looking at this this way, as the brain's conditionning to help, to protect me, is really cool. Cause i find myself in a much more accepting position.
I let all things be as they are.
I know this IS the way, more than the highs, and lows, of heightened levels of consciousness.

So freedom from "me" is truly what drives me today.
Seeing my true nature has been a problem, because the brain tries to find it.
Since it doesnt, it goes for agitation.... and fear and doubt are the outcomes.... followed by the other programms very romantic, like guilt and hate.
Since i saw already how the whole perception varies with states of feelings and mind, it looks like the whole world goes up and down, light to dark, quick!

I write to you all this because it comes out this way.

I love your advice on doubt and fear, honouring them.
There is still here the idea, the belief that when the energies are not high in clarity, there's a problem. I cant find a solution to what's up. But isnt this the problem????
Trying to find a solution with the brain?
And relying on it to get me back to peace or love?

After this morning's seeing, I know that the brain-mind-thinking-searching CANNOT bring me peace and love and joy.
Peace and love and joy are before all this, in the seeing itself.

Right now, how are the feelings?
a little low, due to eating i guess.... or back in warmth after cold.... anyway, it is not as high.
The brain is running a little uneasiness, which tends to trigger judging and searching for solutions.

I can just let it be that way...
but i feel that i still rely on my brain to help me out.

Your words are so very welcomed here

   
I just say a thank you prayer to God, and i feel the love again....
thank you Ilona.

let's get rid of falsity, allright?

i love you,
L
Thank you.
<3

So what was that trigger that made seeing happen? Can you describe what happened? what was most instrumental for you?

I do take in all that you write, it really flows. Can you send me the link to your website? :) very interesting.

Also can you tell how did you found me? Just curious.


Much love :)
   
Yeah, <3!!

What was the trigger?
I'm not sure.
I'd say it's a mixture of many things.
Among them, a huge desire for liberation.... that was there since always!

How did i find you?
My eyes got specially attracted by your name on the headless group.
I found funny but unintersting what was going on between you guys, but still my eyes were sticking to you.
The next day, same thing.
So i checked out your website.... and started to read your processing there.
And this was some days ago.
That kept me up all night, then the next day and also the next day and night.
So i went ahead and wrote to you directly.

my website is www.laurentelielevy.com
it's called "The teachings of Spirit" where I 've been sharing either received messages by my friend... and audios of my weekly teachings (the latest ones will be found on the "non-duality" category).

But you are right with the idea of the blog!!
now that i thought of it, I could just have a blog where i just share my stuff, my reflexions, and it doesnt have to be formated...

It goes quite well with this coming wave of ALLOWING me to be free and flowing whatever comes freely, from me (and not as always hiding under some protective shield of some kind)

although I felt a big smile at your question how does it feel to be liberated", I still dont feel liberated.
   
i will go to sleep now.
i wish we continue tomorrow, if you feel you can still help me.
love, and big gratitude for you,
L
   

although I felt a big smile at your question how does it feel to be liberated", I still dont feel liberated.

How do you imagine you would feel? What do you expect? There is no booom, no nothing, just drop of belief.

So is there a self?
Can you believe that i is an entity again?
Was there ever a manager inside L's body making stuff happen?

Look at this again and tell me, has liberation happened?


Yes, your email got me smiling too.  Much love!

   
hello and good morning my dear!!
didnt sleep a lot, and as you say, that's what awakening does!
woke up with some energies....
saw the habitual brain labeling and especially the agitation to find a solution.
there's identification here with the game of fixing stuff.
i just remembered what you wrote yesterday.... where the brain/mind use to be a game
you loved to play.... staying in thoughts, getting flashes of insights...
i love to see that i'm accepting all this, as i understand and acknowledge what's happening.
As i'm making a diffrence between seeing and thinking.
And could you get back on allowing seeing and thinking to play together?
Isnt seeing above, or detached completely from thinking?
What did you mean?
i have the idea that one can be always totally aware of Pure Awareness, true nature, pure seeing.... while playing around, if he wants, with the brain.... with thinking, playing at the game of understanding... of tossing around with conceptual stuff.
Actually, I LOVE THIS STUFF!!!
It's like bringing down to the earth.... to this level of vibration.... a higher and purer light of knowledge.
Maybe that's also what you meant by the great tool i had....

Ahah!!
I see you just wrote!!!

great i'll jump off to read now.
Love and gratitude
   
How do you imagine you would feel? What do you expect? There is no booom, no nothing, just drop of belief.

I imagine I would have this really large vision... immersed in pure awareness... trnsparent potentiality of just seeing.... feeling very disconnected from all and at the same time in love with all.
i also imagine that there would be a definite knowing, for sure, that I am not a label, and that the false identity-self would no longer be a problem.
I also imagine that this will come with some heavy certainty and a joy that is always present.... at least a sense of permanent joy.

I sense that the belief that all should be light and magic has gone away a little... has detached.... because this is the type of things I lived and saw 7 years ago. I've been understanding more that liberation was about peace, more than boooms, and that liberation is here right now, even if i dont see it.
So by dropping the identification in the point of view called "I", i would sink easily into quiet Being and stuff.....

As for the transforming of matter in sight, i guess this could be a game to play with the Gods, later on ;-))

There is a lot of imaginings in what i wrote, and your input will be so appreciated.

AS i'm reading again what i wrote, well, i'm not that far actually.
The first point is imagination and holding on to this.
I guess it will happen or not...
For the second, there is no self, so how can it be a problem? and i know that i am not a label!
for the third, i guess that this experience of joy comes and goes, but i'm not too certain i want to let go of this as a belief...
well, i'm willing to now!

So is there a self?
Can you believe that i is an entity again?
Was there ever a manager inside L's body making stuff happen?
No there isn't.

No, I is not anything real, anything palpable indeed.
There is no I except in thought, as a notion, a label.
The seeing that the brain labels with I is really working!!!! ;-)


i dont know.
the obvious intellectual answer is NO, there wasnt any manager here, inside the body of L.
Making stuff happen.
But when I look, with all I saw, there cannot be any!!
I thought that something has to be here managing the whole thing.
Making the heart beat, the hair grow....
but also making the moves, prefering this to that, wanting to screw up, keeping the Holy Spirit 's guidance, or God's guidance (or higher script) away, refusing control from parents or other authority, choosing food... at least choosing to choose food or not, choosing to let go of choice (please answer to this one)....
but i see that there is noone....
for that one is more like a program, a running program of conditionn ing and beliefs.
And if the script is a higher script.... more in tune with love and oneness.... it is still an automatic ideas shooter with noone listening or not!

Do i believe in a chooser position inside here?
yes, still.
But i may be wrong, because there is no "I" anywhere but in labels.
I see i've been holding on to the position of doubter for a while.
That might have given me the "insurrance" of existing as separate, as a self.

I can also see a belief that "i" exist as a more invisible position in another realm that is another dimension or something....
it's true that this is blurry and supposed.
Right here, right now, there is indeed nothing but all that is happening in this realm.
with no "I" to be found.

And this seeing doesnt make me dead.
 whatever me i've always been.

nothing changes.
but the seeing sees that there 's no entity choosing anything.

a slight dreaming back to the brain and the land of ideas get me a little numbed... trying to look for a "me", a position, a seat on which I sit...
and i didnt find anything.

In that case, what the hell am I?
and where the hell am I?
and who's choosing?

Love
L
   
In that case, what the hell am I?
and where the hell am I?
and who's choosing?

Just noticing, seeing, seeing and knowing, and knowing that seeing is seeing. :-)

Here, and everywhere... !!
wait! that's where i get caught up! imagination, expectaing this enlarged vision, seeing... something that is not here now. Seeing me everywhere. So fear and doubt are nicely protecting me from that dangerous imagined elargement of vision...
Bullshit.
No me needs to be protected from an imagined new state of vision.

Noone is choosing.
   
I see that you have graduated! :)

You are processing stuff that comes up with lightness and certainty. I love that. :)

There is a difference between real and imagined. Real is here, now, no-w-here, it just is.
Imagined is like you say 'another realm' where fairies and dragons and batman lives and no one ever dies. Same with the self. Imagined. Not real, never was here, only in the imagination.

Can you just look closer at what is real and what isn't, to clarify that. :)

What is real?
   
dog is real, here, now.
petting him is real, here now.
seeing him is real here now.
labelling is real, here and now.
feeling of sadness is real.... well, isn't that just labelling and energy?
....
by the way, when i look at "dog" from a close, i see the label, made of langage...
and that way, easy to see that it is meaningless piece of langage....
when i get there, the whole experience vanishes too!!!
I use to love deconstructing experience this way, finding myself in I DONT KNOW land.
...
back to the exercice.
hands writing on this key pad is real.
thinking a bit is real too.

you didnt ask about false, but "I write" is false, like robin hood.
writing is real and happening.

noise in the kitchen is real.
labelling it, or "understanding" or assuming it is my friend with the dishes.... is real?
isnt that imagination.
In that case, imagining is real, happening here and now.

to me is not real.

it's a little edgy... cause labels about all that's around are not that real in them selves,
just labels, empty in truth.

feel free to comment here please.

"what i'm going to do today?" is real as a question happening now and here.
the content is lala land.
especially the character, fictitious.
"me" is supposed to exist.

doubting is also real.
i doubt is not.
fearing is real.... an energy felt.
again, the labelling is not correct ... but we could say that energy and labelling is real.!!
feels better.

to whom?
to unreal!
just feels better....!

   
saying I is not real feels different than I am not real.
but in I is not real, there could be still identification to an observer, personnal.
and in I am not real, it feels more like nhilism or suicide


Cool.
Yes of course the experience is real, world is real and all within, thoughts are real, but not the content. :) words are only pointers, reflections, not reality itself.

The expectation that once liberation happens all beliefs will fall is just that, expectation.  It takes time to process all that used to be attached to the I.

Good place to start is looking at most precious beliefs close to the heart, ones that are 'not to be doubted'

Can you look and see if you can find any ideas that you would rather keep then let go? Call up resistance and see if it takes you there.

What do you resist at the moment?
Just dig a bit deeper. You are doing so great I'm getting addicted you your emails. :)
I see that this is gonna be great for my blog, let me know if it's ok with you to put it up and you want me to change you name there. 
   
Ok then:

Can you look and see if you can find any ideas that you would rather keep then let go? Call up resistance and see if it takes you there.

What do you resist at the moment?

At this moment, I resist going deeper and look for beliefs!!
So i must believe that looking inside is difficult and dangerous.... (this is imagined answer,
something I read and agree with)

I also seem to hold on to the idea that I'm bad, not good enough.
Throughout this processing with you, dear Ilona, i saw from a close how much I hold on to doubt! To not knowing by myself....
not wanting to let go that I dont have all the answer inside....
not wanting to let go that the others know better.
... which sounds like fear of power, of being powerful.
(Would be cool to look at what is power for "me".)

This has started to crumble though.

I also hold a recurrent belief that being tired, or low in energy is not good, as in dangerous.
When i look there, it feels like i believe the world is a danger, and I must defend and protect my self....
how? mostly by being sharp and quick with my thinking, with remembering, for example.
But that has also started to crumble... seeing that remembering will not get me to happiness.
Oh! The "on-guard" attitude is as well well kept in the inner world.
I believe that there are dangerous forces in my mind....

But tell me, with the belief in "I", the central caracter seen as non-existent, all of these should quite easily fall off I believe.
Especially the guilt due to the "I'm bad" one, that is so present in everyone's mind.
It is the basic limitation that goes together with believing we're separate (say the teachings)

So, to make it shorter, I hold on to: negative energies and tiredness are not good. So I fear them (protect against). because I must be always on top of things, thoughts and all that comes.

Also, I hold on to the doubter, which gives me a sense of existing as "small and nice", and separate too. I see also that these beliefs in doubt or guilt protect the idea of power!!! The doubter suffers from the doubt but rejoice at being a chooser, one who is in control.

Again, if i see that there's noone behind any of them, that should make it easier I'm sure.
It's like saying: I'm ok with it, God, your dice if you want to clear that up!

That's what's coming for now.

About the name, of course you can use our dialogues. I feel better with L and also maybe you could take the last more "personal" stuff out.... story of awakening for example.(that is one email think)



   
What is power? Good question L. What is behind power?

Can you describe what is this 'liberation' as you see it now and how does it feel to be liberated?

I appreciate our dialog so much, it's a great example of processing what comes after. Love you man!
   


   
What is power? Good question L. What is behind power?

Nothing clearly coming out yet. Will come back to it.

Wait! Funny how this brain works!! Now that the need to find the answer has been let go, the idea of control started to tingle...
So power would mean control, obviously. Great. Cause now I see the trick...the funny and ultimate trick behind fear of power...fear of control. And fear of control is a joke, isn't it, for a label! :-)
Is there power in the brain for the notion of a separate self? In truth none.
Then we could speak of the power of belief... the energy of conviction that comes with attachment to I. For there is the juice... the power of attention, or the power of refusal to see. That power is more secondary it seems, because it's energetical..., already in the realm of objects. And yet, it seems to be linked directly to the intensity of belief.
Seeing clearly over and over again that there is noone believing anything but just thoughts being listened to by noone feels like the ultimate belief killer!!!!
In fact, the true power, even in the seeming manifested, is surrender!!! Total acceptance is the power of ALLNESS!!! And that is slightly more juicy than the ideas of denial.... again, to noone! Ah ah ah!

I ll get back to the rest of the question soon... but I can sense it's going to  be fun... or about fun and lightness!

Loving you always my love!

.......................................

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