Mirage Of A Mistaken Self

Joe

Hello Ilona, love your blog, read the shit out of it. I stumbled across this two part interview which you may find very interesting. Great research. Part one is the set up and part 2 is the really good stuff.

I put them in order. First:
http://www.buddhistgeeks.com/2011/07/bg-224-the-study-of-non-symbolic-consciousness/

and the second

http://www.buddhistgeeks.com/2011/07/bg-225-the-end-of-self-referencing/

enjoy

Ilona

Thank you, really interesting. So much to read!

How about you, have you seen the no- self thingy yet?

Joe

You can listen to the audio there. As far as the no self-thing. I'm fading. There hasn't been a huge shift. On the flip side beliefs are crumbling everyday. I'm writing like crazy, trying to get to the root.

Ilona

If you need some help, let me know. It's just a matter of precise questions.
And writing is best way to get it sorted, yes

Joe

I more than willing to give it a try, but first let me ask you, was the shift subtle for you?

Ilona

Shift was subtle but certain. Then it took a few days to sink in.
How about you? Has it happened yet?

Joe

Then I would say no, but I’ve been having days that I , hard to explain but if pressed my self as self fades and great sense of well being arises but the self of self is still there ever so slightly in the background

Sense of self i meant to say

So it's still there. Hanging on.

Ilona

Ok, you are very close!
Love your art, you are very talented.
When you paint, is there a sense of self in there?

Joe

Funny you ask. It usual runs the extremes, Yes very strongly, or not at all.

Frustrating,, thanks for liking the art by the way 

Ilona

Ok, have a look at it from this way: there is a sense if being, aliveness, existing, that sense is never going to disappear, it's constant till body is alive. Same human, same animals.

This sense is labelled by the mind as 'sense of self' but it's not self that is felt, just aliveness. It's impersonal.

Mind is a labelling machine and pits labels on every experience.
Self can not be felt as it does not exists. It's just language got in a way of clear seeing and mind identified with the imaginary self.

So when you close your eyes, identify the feeling of being and see if it's personal. Is there a 'me' in there?

Joe

At this moment It does feel personal, I can't deny that.

Ilona

It is mind that labels it 'personal'.

Have a look at the thoughts. Can you control them? Where do they come from? Can you know what next thought going to be? Can you stop a thought in the middle?
What do you see there?

Joe

This is a sticking point with me, thoughts just seem to happen by their own but it appears I can change what the thought can be such as interject the stream and think (happy or sad thoughts) as a generalization.

As far as stop it in the middle, not sure about that, can soften my focus on the thought as to, or it seems to go into the background.

Ilona

Yes, Joe, thoughts happen on their own. 'I can change what the thought can be...' it's also just a thought appearing effortlessly.

Notice that thoughts are coming and passing like river.
See if you can control thoughts or it just appears so.

Joe

I'm with you there.

Ilona

Cool. Now we will examine the labelling process that is going on by itself, without a manager. It's brains reaction to environment and experience.

So look now- body breathes. Does it need a breather? Are you a breather? Or all is just happening?

Joe

I can see they are passing like a river, oh shit, are you saying, that my thinking I can control my thoughts is just another thought passing through?

Just happening?

Ilona

Yes to above. I is just a thought and thought does not think. Once it's seen it's over.
But don't worry if it's not clear just yet, we will take small steps and it will become obvious.

Are you sure? Just answer with whole honesty.

Joe

That is is clear but i'm having a reaction to it

Ilona

What is the reaction?

Joe

Heart is racing and bit of a body shakes and my thoughts have sped up

Like it's , like it's trying to be fuzzy

Ilona

Of course. It's ok, let it just be there. It's normal. Accept the feeling.

Now if you look at this:
There is no separate self at all in real life, as in zero.

What feeling comes inside?

Joe

My eyes teared up, trying to well..

Joy and fear

Ilona

Ok. Bring the fear closer. Examine the fear as a mechanism if protection. See how well it works, how amazing it is. Honour it. Can you do that? Just let the fear be there, look at it, be ok with it and then look behind. Is there anything that needs to be protected? If so what?

Joe

Hold on

Something just happened

All the tension in my body is gone

Ilona

Keep going. What is behind the fear, can you see now?

Joe

Wait a minute, there seem to be nothing and, I can't stop looking around my apartment.

Everything looks a bit new

Ilona

Hahaha! Nothing! Yes!!!

Joe

I can't find any fear

Damn the body feels so relaxed

Ilona

Ok, cool. So look again, is there a self to be found in your apartment? Is it real?

Joe

There some objects I see I associated with a story of me

Ilona

Story is just that- story. It all is playing out by itself. no actor.

Joe

Amazing

Ilona

Is there a you in any shape or form in reality? Was there ever?

Joe

No just thoughts masquerading as me

Ilona

Hahaha! Yes.
What is real?

What is real?

Joe

Don't know what real means anymore other than pointing to a pointer and so on.

Ilona

Look around apartment. And notice the words, labels that point to real things: table, chair, monitor, body, hand, foot,
All this exists, things do not dissapear if you stop believing in them. That is real.
World is.
Self isn't.
Life is.
You isn't.
Can you see?

Does word I point to anything real?

Joe

No, not at all.

Ilona

Here we go.
How does it feel to be free?

Joe

Fucking unreal! HAHHAH

Open, spacious

Funny really

I see all this things I put a little me in. A self that does not exist

Ilona

Lol

Joe

I have to run, but will message you tomorrow to check if I don't exist

Thank you so much for the walk

Ilona

You are welcome! Got to sleep now, it's 3:40, hihi
Speak to you tomorrow.
Much love!

 ............................

Ilona

Hey Joe, how is life today?

Joe

Different, seem to be just doing life, currently I'm at a drawing session with about 20 people, funny I see all these thoughts go through, clambering to be feed. Perplexed, lot more space, feel structures of beliefs. More unravelling. Happy to just be. Curious about the unfolding, pangs of old thoughts run through. No one there to get caught.

Ilona

Great to hear that it all seems different. Same, but different.

Can you answer me these questions precisely as possible:
1) Is there a you, at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?

2) Explain in detail what the self is and how it works.

3) How does it feel to be liberated?

Just so i see if you are really through.

Joe

Frustrated as fuck but here we go.

Don't know how to answer this right now. When i look i can't find one, but there is a feeling there is, irritation.

At odds with myself. Feeling self diluted, like what the fuck. I see these thoughts and get brought down to thinking, oh hey Here is Joe. Some many thoughts about what this would feel and be like, Sorry for the wobbly shit but there it is. I was at a different place last night and this morning. I see thoughts wanting to tell myself that I am free, but again. All honesty here, I'm not.

Ilona

It's ok, it's quite expected, happens pretty much a lot. But that what was seen can not be unseen. Instead the usual identification with the i there is a hole, so mind goes, wtf. It will take some time to settle and all will become clear.
The frustrations is normal. Look at it, it is only trying to protect something. Let it be there and just observe how it works for a bit. Then, look behind. Is there anything that needs to be protected? Is there anything at all?
What it would be like? Exactly that. It's different for everyone, but everyone agrees, no special super powers. Nothing changes on the outside.

Joe

Ok, does feel like my mind is trying to rationalize this. What's happening, then I look again, can't find a me. Thoughts of "can it really, i mean really be this simple." No bliss shooting out my ass.

I have to sit with this.

Ilona

Sit with it, yes, it's so simple yes, can't be simpler really. No bliss, no angels singing no light flashing in the eyes. This is the part where it's easy to get stuck, mind needs to process what happened.

........................

Ilona

Joe, how is it going?

Joe

Just being with the unravelling. Not either good or bad.

Ilona

Has there been a definite shift?

Joe

Not lasting no.

Ilona

Can you believe that there is a you again?

Joe

Seems so

I have been drifting in and out for the last 3 months

Ilona

Ok, read my blog, start here page, as i just updated it and explained what to expect after. Then get back to me. Cool?

Joe

I will read it at lunch time, will do


 ......................................

Joe

Hello, I read it again. It's like I’m awaking in the dream state not from it. That's the best way to describe it. Don't want to Dilute myself and say I have.

Ilona

Describe it. Is there a you in there? In any shape or form?
What is Joe?

Joe

A jumble of thoughts clambering to grab my attention, sensations.

That's all i see

Ilona

So you see thoughts trying to glue themselves to thinker?
Is there a thinker behind them thoughts?

Joe

I don't know, hard to say seems I can swing with saying the thinker is just more thoughts or I just don't know.

Ilona

I don't know is not an answer, look inspect, then say what you see, don't guess.
Thoughts about thinker exist, but thinker itself doesn't.
Is it true?

Joe

I'd say it's just my brian doing it's brian thing, when I really look I don't see a thinker, thinking just happens. So no it's doesn't exist.

Ilona

Yes, so all this thoughts that run wildly are just passing through. It's processing. Brain is re-establishing what is going on. And it gets a bit panicky.
You know how after a good night out you get a hangover. Same here- a massive one.
Or like when stop smoking there are cravings. Same here- thoughts are looking for the I to attach, but you have seen that I can not think itself. So don't fight the process, relax into it. Just look at thoughts as they pass by and notice if it gets personal. That's where belief is stuck. Just examine the belief and release the feeling that is glued to.
Makes sense?

Joe

Yes.

How long did it take for you?

Ilona

Hm, everyone is different. I done a lot before popping,
By burning beliefs away. Then it was east, just relaxed into experience more and more. Naturally.

It's still going, but differently now. The initial clear up was about a month I'd say.

You know, it has been well programmed into the software that I is me.

Joe

Cool, hey did you ever listen or read those interviews I sent you?

Ilona

Read a little, I'm so busy with lots of stuff that haven't have time to get into it properly. As I understand the researcher is interested in finding people who can be tested. Interesting.

Ilona

Hey Joe, how are things? How is Joe?

Joe

Good, just relaxing into life despite what may seem chaotic.

Ilona

Oh, so you felt the shift?

Joe

I have felt a shift, but I will say I keep feeling other ones as well. I'm very neutral and watch a stronger and lesser sense of self wash over throughout the day. Layers, emotional, mental, sensational. I'm content

Ilona

Aha! Good stuff.
So is there any doubt left that all is just happening by itself?

Joe

Funny, I have felt this in the past, but it's happening more and more that everything is happening by it self. I won't say it's 24/7 but it is increasing and widening. I'm fortunate in the fact my life situation is pretty crazy as in, highly stressful and could be depressing, so the letting go and being with what is more expansive. Quite honestly your question seems odd. Only because it seems so obvious now.

Ilona

That's great to hear Joe. Yes relaxation in situations that previously would be labelled as stressful is obvious. Life gets the feel of effortlessness.

Can you look now and tell me is there a you at all in any shape or form?
What is self and how does it work? Has there ever been a separate self?

Thank you.
:))

Joe

The self is concept created by the mind to protect itself which mistakes itself for a separate self.

Ilona

Nice!
And the first question?

Joe

No there is not, I see mirage of a mistaken self.

Ilona

Awesome!
I see that you are through!
What was that last push that made 'you disappear'?

Joe

Just crept in over time.

Ilona

Sweet!
Can I put our chat on my blog? It may help someone else. If so, what name shall I use? 

Joe

Sure, just my first name Joe

Ilona

Thank you
Let me know if you want to join a group of friends like you who recently seen through illusion. It's great if support needed and everyone is free going trough the same in their own ways.
Much love!

Joe

Thanks!

Ilona 
Love your art!