Action Figure Ron Sees IT Too

Ron:

Dear Ilona,

My name is Ron from the Netherlands and I’ve been seeking for liberation from the moment I heard about it a couple of years ago. Read a lot of books and visit satsangs. But I’ve not found the clarity yet I’ve been looking for. Until I read your book ‘Gateless Gatechrashers’. I also heard a radio interview with you and your no nonsense approach moved me. I spend the last 3 months thinking if I should write you or not, because it feels a bit strange to write to someone you don’t know. But there’s something saying inside me I can trust you. So here I’m writing this e-mail and I hope you can guide me if you can find the time. This is what I found so far while answering your questions and pointers:

There is no self, no me that lives my life. What comes up?

 Well, a lot of things come up. Sometimes there’s fear. There’s also excitement. And the last two weeks it’s more like a relief, but also a lot of frustration, irritation and anger because I don’t seem to see it. I know that there’s no me to see it (but that is second hand knowledge). The I seems to be quite strong and convincing.

If try to look behind those feelings, they vanish but come back more strongly and that’s the moment doubt sets in: can this be true? Followed by: call off this search and have a drink with friends.

Overall there is a feeling of doing something wrong, like not looking in the right direction. And some kind of I don’t deserve this feeling. On the other hand, there is some deep urge to know, something that overrides the rest. Sometimes it’s weak, sometimes strong.

What do you expect from liberation?

 I could give myself the ‘spiritual right answer’ but deep down I expect a lot of it.

The moment itself: a deep insight with all revealing light

Afterwards:

No more problems, they glide of like a fried egg in a Teflon pan

Deep peace

No more pain, worries and suffering

Always happy

Being profound and wise in every situation

Deep insight in life

Deep relaxation (my body always feels very tense and dense)

In short: I’m hoping to be special. I know it’s quite the opposite, but again that’s second hand knowledge (and now I’m thinking about it I even borrowed that second hand knowledge quote, everything I say about liberation seems something I picked up somewhere from others). 

What is real? What is here now?

 There is a body sitting on a couch in a room. There is typing. A laptop. There is furniture. There are sounds from outside of people passing by. There are bodily sensations like sitting, some tension in the stomach, which feels like I’m present. There is a lot of thinking about this e-mail. And it is all very, very real.

But when I look for the self all I find are thoughts and bodily sensations (mostly tension). There is no constant I or self so to speak. The one moment I is bodily sensation like a pain, itch, relaxation in the stomach area, etc. Another moment I is a thought like I’m happy, sad or I got to do the dishes. And another moment I is an action like cycling, typing, eating, smoking etc.

I can’t find a solid I, I is constantly shifting from the one thing to another. Strangely there seems to be some kind of center though.

Where do thoughts come from?

They just pop up. Sometimes a thought seems to come from a previous thought. Sometimes a thought seems to be evoked by circumstances or feelings.

Can you control thoughts?

No, I can’t control thoughts. Even I’m gonna think about… is a thought I did not choose for. So they just happen.

I also noticed that some thoughts seem to label things: a chair, a table, good, bad, etc. While others are more like assignments or very pushy ideas at least: do this or…, buy these clothes and you look good, you need a cigarette, etc.

In other words, some thoughts seem to be functional for the body (drink or eat something, it’s cold put the heater on) and other (most) thoughts are about desires, fears and hopes (a kind of destructive). And they all are about me, myself or I, very egoistic.

What influences thought?

Experience.  A sad feeling comes up followed by the thought I’m feeling sad. Then all kind of other thoughts come up like I don’t want to be sad > Why I’m sad?> Oh of course it’s because of what happened this morning (or what might happen this evening)>this gonna be a shitty day. And then it just rambles on in the hope to find a some kind of solution or relief until something else happens (seeing a nice house or something) that breaks the thought cycle and start a new cycle (wouldn’t it be nice if I could buy that house > but I can’t afford it > Maybe, I have to find a job that pays better> etc.) It just never stops.

Do you know what your next thought will be?

No, only vaguely when it is habitual thought cycle you’ve seen a 1000 times before. And even when it’s a ‘here we go again’ thought cycle, it’s not completely predictable and interrupted by all kinds of other thoughts which are completely off subject.

Can a thought be stopped in the middle?

No, thoughts seem to be extremely short like flashes with no beginning, middle or end. They also seem to have some force behind them that can’t be stopped; it’s like trying to stop your hair to grow. Maybe functioning is a better word (but why are most thoughts so depressing than?)

What do you know for sure?

Difficult one, the only thing I’m sure off is what is happening now, sitting, typing, breathing, etc. And a vague sense of being/presence. But deep down I’m not sure of anything at all. I guess there is a lot of doubt.

There is no separate self in real life.

That is not seen yet. Intellectual I get it. But I’ve the feeling I’m missing something. There is no click as you call it.

What I do notice is that everything happens. Seasons change by themselves, weather changes. Everything is alive just by itself. But I feel excluded, like I’m the one exception. Of course I feel alive, but I feel a bit cut off the rest of life. Like I’m inside, and the rest of life is outside. It is like what happens in my head, thought cycles, is more important than what’s really happening. I feel like a kid that wants to play outside but the I keeps me in like a evil stepmom inside the house to do the dishes. This sounds silly doesn’t it, a non-existing me that is forced by a non-existing I to stay inside.

Ilona this where I’m now, and I really hope you can help me on this matter. I would really appreciate it if you would.

Kind regards, 

Ilona:

Hi Ron,

Nice work. I appreciate you wrote to me. Your very honest desire for truth and burning shows readiness. Take that one step further.  There is no line between inside and outside. All you see is it. Close your eyes and listen, is there a line? Try to feel it, search for it. And with the eyes open see what eyes see. Is there inside or outside here? Can you look inside? where is that?

"Strangely there seems to be some kind of center though." seems, that's right.. But is there? there is clear sensation of being. That which is aliveness, amness.  The buzzing vibrating something. Is that sensation there with or without labels?

Me is a label, no more.  Feeling, sensation is real, content of thought isn't.  

Anyway, this is what is in the way of seeing clearly "What do you expect from liberation?

I could give myself the ‘spiritual right answer’ but deep down I expect a lot of it.

The moment itself: a deep insight with all revealing light

Afterwards:

No more problems, they glide of like a fried egg in a Teflon pan

Deep peace

No more pain, worries and suffering

Always happy

Being profound and wise in every situation

Deep insight in life

Deep relaxation (my body always feels very tense and dense)

In short: I’m hoping to be special. I know it’s quite the opposite, but again that’s second hand knowledge (and now I’m thinking about it I even borrowed that second hand knowledge quote, everything I say about liberation seems something I picked up somewhere from others).  "

There is no insight. Just a drop of belief. No boom. That is shift in perception, can be very subtle. No more problems? Hm, may be or may not, depends on amount of beliefs need to burn and fall away. So leave this expectation right here. Deep peace yeah, can be accessed anytime, but not always present. 

No more pain? You are not going to turn into senseless zombie, pain, yes, suffering, it will diminish but won't evaporate overnight. This is only first step, there is integration and all that. Not the end, beginning. 

Happy? Irrelevant. It is not about state. Wise and profound? Who knows. It does not give you knowledge. This does not change character. Special? Definitely not. 

It is not what you expect, whatever you expect. So leave all expectations aside. Besides, the unfoldment is unique, no need to compare. Basically, mind is resolving this question and let it do it's job. Don't try to bend what is, look at what is already obvious.  Doubt all you know and ask what is true. 

Write to me what comes up.  

You are very very close.  Now look, everything so far is happening by itself.  One movement. Including thought about it. 

Much love. 

Ron:

Hi Ilona,

       

Thanks for your quick reply and for helping me out. I was really surprised when I opened my mail this morning and read your reply. It gave me some confidence to look further. Today I’ve spent the day outside the house working on your pointers. This is what was found:

There is no line between inside and outside. All you see is it. Close your eyes and listen, is there a line? Try to feel it, search for it.

When I close my eyes and try to find a line between outside and inside, I really can’t find one. It’s the most clear with sounds, I can’t find a boundary between the sound and the hearing itself. It’s like there is space in which everything happens, sound, hearing and what’s hearing at the same time.

Also thoughts don’t seem to be actually IN the head, they kind of fly trough.

Feelings like contractions are a bit more difficult. They seem to be in the body, but not very solid, more like floating in the body.

Bodily sensations like the wind touching the skin, don’t seem to have clear line either. It is hard to tell where the wind ends and the skin starts. It’s like they melting together.

So with closed eyes I can’t really find a hard or concrete line.

And with the eyes open see what eyes see. Is there inside or outside here?

With open eyes it was easy to find a line between inside and outside… in the beginning. But then something hit me. When I look I can’t tell where the seen ends and the eyes start. There is that big space (and small if I was not out in the woods but in a tiny room) in front of me in which everything happens, including my body. I can see the whole body except the head (that would need a mirror). Where my head should be is space.

The position of the body in that space determines the point of view, the direction of looking. And because I can’t see what’s happening behind me, it seems there is a boundary, but there isn’t. There is only a boundary or line when the I thought appears.

So also with my eyes open, I can’t find a line.

Is Inside and outside the same thing? I’m confused here

Can you look inside? where is that?

This is also a difficult one. I always find it hard to look inside. I can only do it with my eyes closed. Then it gets dark and spacious. The only thing I find are thoughts passing by. Thoughts about me. Sometimes there appear visuals of descending in the body, but this a thought also, isn’t it? Then I mostly stumble upon a feeling in the stomach area and can’t go any further.

I actually find nothing there. And I doubt now if there even is a inside there. Much confusion on this pointer too.

I’m still working on your other pointers.

By the way, I felt a bit lighter than I normally do. And there was some sadness about saying goodbye to my concepts about liberation. Overall I can say that writing to you about it is very helpful. It seems to clear things up. Until now I was always pondering about truth in my head.

Basically, mind is resolving this question and let it do it's job. 

Ilona, do you mean that mind is ‘working to’ liberation by itself? Like this is what mind is looking for?

Much thanks for your time so far. I'm looking forward to hear from you.

Gratitude and love,

Ron

Ilona:

Great to hear that it is helping to write to me. :) i love being of service.

> Ilona, do you mean that mind is ‘working to’ liberation by itself? Like this is what mind is looking for?

Yes, i mean exactly that. Thoughts about liberation and looking are happening, all by itself. There is no one here that is managing that. If you decide to drop all this and distract from inquiry, sure thing it will come back. Just like a seed sprouts and starts growing into a tree, so do ideas, they grow and there is no stopping that. So mind is looking for truth and seeing is happening, already. It is a process, sometimes shift is so subtle that can only be seen after a few days.

i sense that you are right at the gate, you are looking at it and starting to see the obvious.

keep me posted.
much love.

Ron:

Hi Ilona,

Things seem to unfold rapidly now, and there is a lot of clarity as in there is no gate, no such thing as liberation. These are all concepts, beliefs and ideas that keep you in imprisonment, seemingly. Even truth is a concept. IT doesn't need concepts; it doesn't need anything at all. IT JUST IS, it's already free and it always was. And even this description is too much. It can't be described, because it contains description and IT IS before description, or breath or whatever. It's no-thing and yet it appears to be everything.  

It's like mind is coming out of very uncomfortable and tensed position and relaxes. It's fluid and light as a feather.

The urge to find something is gone. The whole idea of searching exactly never was really there. It was already so, and therefore nothing really changes.

Ilona I'll come back to you soon to tell you more, but writing about is hard now because so much things are seen through rapidly. Yet it is a quite a peaceful and every day experience. This action figure called Ron just went to work like always, there is nothing special, but it's leaves you speechless   

It's like you said, it's nothing you can imagine.

Much, much, much love and gratitude,

Ron

Ilona:

Enjoy the ride, Ron! :) It really is something else when mind starts seeing through limitations that were here only because of words. 

I hear you and I know you have seen IT. Write to me when you feel like, I'll give you some last questions. 

Sending lots of love! 

Ron:

Hi Ilona,

The ride is great, it's amazing in it's simplicity. So here is a big smile from the Netherlands. Things are seen through, but in a pace that the action figure Ron can handle, because it couldn't be any different. There is this feeling of joy and peace as deep and spacious as the whole universe and at the same time it has the size of a speck of dust.

It's overwhelming but in a very laid back way.

Things literary have lost their weight or meaning, but not in a cold or nihilistic way. There is love and caring but without any attachment. I've expected this magical mystery tour topped off by a dark night of the soul, a crossing of the valley of death like some gurus say. And it's not like that at all. IT is utterly simple. But the urge to find meaning makes it seem so complex. All these books about IT, satsangs, gurus, caves, mountains with difficult names I've put so much meaning in are seen for what they are: empty, no-things. But as long as you give them meaning, there is no seeing. Maybe this why some gurus only wearing only a loin cloth to emphasize that. But a western mind thinks, oh look, he's wearing only a loin cloth, he must be special. And then people spend time with the guru in the hope to find truth.  But the guru is only pointing to truth, and of course 'he' is truth, but so is the seeker. And the guru is trying to tell you that, but he has no special powers so he's got to use what every other human uses, symbols, language, words, concepts. So then you get these paradoxal sentences like: emptiness is full, the pathless path, what's looking is what you’re looking for (love that one). And you think: wow that sounds cool, that sounds important. But these words are empty. Of course they carry some truth, but so does blahblahblah or dsfnsjgjsg.

With seeking comes meaning and then you build up these huge spiritual beliefs and so the walls of 'your cage' only thicken. The more you belief the thicker the 'wall'.

And those spiritual beliefs have another problem than other beliefs; they seem to be more important. So you start looking for things that fit that belief. Sitting for 20 years on a mountain top in India seems much more spiritual and effective than simply looking and writing and sending e-mails to you. A laptop doesn't seem to have the same halo as these images of Shiva the Destroyer have.  

But if you lucky you move from the 'big' gurus from India to ordinary guys like Paul Hedderman (if you don't know him, he's worth checking out on zenbitchslap.com) who talk about truth in a down to earth way. And your spiritual beliefs start to crumble. And if you are really lucky you find someone like you who takes time and says: have a look and tell me what you find.

Ilona you are amazing and I'm looking forward to the last questions.

Much much much love and gratitude,

Ron 

Ilona:

Thank you for kind words :) it was delightful to read your email. I love the sharing of fresh seeing, when the veil lifts and all that was hidden becomes obvious.  The meaning itself is the construct that helps to support the illusion- an image of me, searching for meaning is a very meaningful image. :)

And here are the final questions we ask when it's clear that the gate and the searcher have disappeared. 

Please answer in full when ready.  

1) Is there a 'me', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever? 

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works.

3) How does it feel to see this?

4) How would you describe it to somebody who has never heard about this illusion but is curious about it.  

5) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look? 

  

Lots of love to you too. 

My heart is filled with appreciation. 

Ron:

Hi Ilona,

Things settle more and more. It's like body and mind are adjusting to this 'new thing'. You are very effective in people helping to see. I can't find the words to express that gratitude. Maybe the answers on your last questions can be read as a big thank you to you, to life. 

Ilona, i'll keep you posted.

Much much much love, 

1) Is there a 'me', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever? 

No there isn't and there never was. Me, I, self are labels, words, symbols or whatever you want to call them. In reality you are not there. Have a look, you just got fooled. 

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works.

I is the first symbol where everything else is 'built' on. After I come the rest of the words, symbols, concepts, beliefs etc. And you keep building and building and working on this I. Why? Because you think they are about you. You seems so important, interesting or cool. Literary everything you can think of is built on this little word 'I', a false assumption. Extremely tiny but also very persistent. Until you just take a look, than there is seeing that there never was an I in the first place. In a weird way deep down mind knows this and it's chasing down answers, but there are no answers, so it's get confused because it want's meaning or reason so badly while there isn't any of that. And mind just can't get or grasp it. Mind's nature is to divide so it can't understand wholeness. In that process of mind seeking for reason huge beliefs get made rather they material, spiritual, political, natural or anything you can possibly think of, and mind starts to giving them meaning by cherishing, hating, trading, loving, defending those beliefs. Whatever the belief is, they all start by the belief in I. But don't try to see through all those beliefs because they're endless. If you get rid of one idea, a 100 others come instead. The only belief that needs seeing through is that one word (beliefs are words) I. And if I is seen through all the other ones are gone too. And gone is not the right word, because they were never there anyway. 

3) How does it feel to see this?

Simple, normal, natural, every day and clear. Things loose their meaning, their weight, their sting. Because that sting is I, it is you. Things don't need a you. That is the reason a you was never here. IT doesn't need anything at all. IT JUST IS, like it was always. 

4) How would you describe it to somebody who has never heard about this illusion but is curious about it.  

Like the above. But don't put meaning in those words. The words are not it. They pointing, but in the end they are just a hideous attempt to describe something that can't be described. 

If you want to see IT, just sit down, look and write. Don't worry about looking honestly. Looking honesty and all that other stuff you think you need for simple looking are already there. Be like a Nike ad, just do it. Stop fancy about IT.  Just look and write and sooner or later that word 'I' will be written off. Just by itself. And then there is only living, only flowing, simply because it was already so. 

5) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look? 

Looking for the line between outside and inside. There was seeing that this line is not there, that I was that line, that boundary. After I was seen trough, everything was seen trough. Everything was about me, but me was not there. Me left everything and everything was left as it was always.

Ilona:

Thank you! Your words bring smile to my face an delight to my heart. 

i can see that you through the non-existing line with both legs. wooo hooo!

can i put this on my blog, so it may help somebody else and i could get you confirmed and invited to our facebook aftercare groups. (If you prefer, i can change the name.) some time sooner or later it is good to share experiences with others that seen the same, especially in times of falling- when beliefs are falling off so fast that there may be a bit help needed to stabilize.  there is a growing community on facebook, i'd love if you joined. If you do not have an account, create one. 

Ron:

Hi Ilona,

Of course you can put it on your blog. It is the least thing I can do to express gratitude. Thanx for all the info to, I'm not on Facebook, but I guess I will.

Ilona, many thanx for all you did, you are truly a life 'changer'. 

Much love, gratitude and a big hug,

What Is Happening Not On Automatic?

Ayanma found me through email. It was only a tiny nudge that she needed. Love how nice and smooth it went. 

Ayanma:
Hi Ilona,
I'll be interested to discuss and go further with you whenever you have some availability.
I have first seen clearly that there is no I  ... and that the "I " is just a thought ... that was quite a long time ago...
It was amazing... I could not believe how ridiculous it was... I had spent so much time and energy searching...

But somehow the contraction came back... and in the same time, the energy for the search disappeared, at least
it is much less, I do sense some way of escaping not to see... like even now for writing...
and that is mainly why I feel this discussion can help... in not escaping...

A big thank you for what you do.
Love,

Ilona:
Hi Ayanma

Thank you for email.

Hm, so you say that you have seen that I is a thought, that there is no such entity that drives the body.

Then contraction comes.
Is it not on automatic? Is it happening to you? Is it wrong in any way?

Ayanma:
Hi Ilona,

Thank you so much for such a quick answer.

Well yes I guess I am surprised that having seen so well how the "I" is nothing, just a made-up idea,
I can still believe in an "I", do as if... until I catch myself in it...
It was very clear at first, then at some point, the "I" thought came back.

The expectation is to live from the perspective of no I , no coming back to a sense of I
the contraction comes back to no one and it does not matter, thanks for the question,
when this is seen, it is fine, but it is not always seen !!

The escaping is just a way to avoid serious looking or inquiry right at the moment when it is needed...
as if there was some protection needed...
In looking at "what is doing escaping" it feels like a protection mechanism of the I thought,
a kind of game to perpetuate a cloud or a fog not to see the emptiness...
but right now speaking about it, it seems absurd, and not present...

yet when I saw clearly the nothingness of this small I, there was also a sense of complete emptiness, which really surprised me
and also frightened me, I guess, I say I guess because somehow I did not have the words...

Thank you,
Love,


Ilona:
Sorry for delay this time, I get a lot of messages and I missed to answer yours..

 "Well yes I guess I am surprised that having seen so well how the "I" is nothing, just a made-up idea,
 I can still believe in an "I", do as if... until I catch myself in it...
 It was very clear at first, then at some point, the "I" thought came back"

Examine this closer- I still believe in 'i'

Can you really believe that there is this entity that controls and manages life?
Cause if you do- you haven't seen it clearly enough.  Once you see it, it can not be lost, ever.  It's same way like you can never believe in Santa/ tooth fairy or whatever magic character you did as a child.

It's one way realisation.

So check within with full and complete honesty, can you believe that I?

"The expectation is to live from the perspective of no I , no coming back to a sense of I"

What exactly is the sense of I? Is that sense still here if it's not labelled? Check it.

"the contraction comes back to no one and it does not matter, thanks for the question,
 when this is seen, it is fine, but it is not always seen !!"

Ok, when you watch a movie that is very interesting, at some places you get sucked in the story and experience the film fully. Seems like background fades away and you are in it, feeling emotions and identifying with characters.
Then you zoom out of the movie and watch it knowing that it's the movie, not real life.

Same here- sometimes the story is so vivid and it's taken for real, it's part of the fun. Is there anything wrong with that? Still, no matter what, you know, it's a story, when you check.

 "The escaping is just a way to avoid serious looking or inquiry right at the moment when it is needed...
as if there was some protection needed..."

Again, what is it that is doing escaping? What is it that is dooing the looking?
What is it that controls attention and focus.  Is it not on automatic?


"In looking at "what is doing escaping" it feels like a protection mechanism of the I thought,
 a kind of game to perpetuate a cloud or a fog not to see the emptiness...
 but right now speaking about it, it seems absurd, and not present..."

Ha, yes.


''yet when I saw clearly the nothingness of this small I, there was also a sense of complete emptiness, which really surprised me and also frightened me, I guess, I say I guess because somehow I did not have the words..."


Is there a big I?
What is the I that is used in your writing refer to?
Much love to you.

Ayanma:
Hi Ilona,
Thank you so much for your answer and the big hug which I appreciate and give back!
So nice to be able to speak about this ... it is such help !!

You said
>> Once you see it, it can not be lost, ever.

And that is why I am here with you, because it is not exactly what has been happening here...
Of course it is what seemed obvious at first, how can you believe in Santa Claus when you see it is a lie...
but are there not layers... and the sight gets more or less clear... or habits and you believe into words again or the mainstream habit ??
When you ask if I still believe in this entity... yes until I stop and check !!

A long time ago, I was in India and did the self inquiry for the first time, it immediately was seen that there was no one and no more question
in answer to who am I? just a vast beautiful warm space ... but I had no words for it, no understanding, and the guru there said only :" that is it " which did not help at all... From then on, I found myself even more cut into two worlds : the one of roles, social games, interaction with people and home alone ... and this separation was painful...
Same type of things in India also as everyday after discourses-satsang, where somehow I was gone ... and the need to contract back to the character I thought I was to function in the world (to do what I was supposed to do) and every day this shrinking was hell..

Much later it was seen that there was no need to shrink back to this so called character... which was fiction, but I did not know then

The reason I tell you those two points, is that it feels quite amazing that in both cases, the belief in I still went on...
I heard of people for whom one of those was enough to fully wake up.
So wondering what are the sticky points which keep this apparent I alive...

also what you said about the movie example is troubling me :
> Same here- sometimes the story is so vivid and it's taken for real, it's part of the fun. Is there anything wrong with that? Still, no matter what, you know, it's a story, when you check.

As it just happens that there is no pleasure here to go and see movies, as it is felt as very unpleasant to get identified to these roles...
and more or less in general there is always an awareness of playing roles, since I remember in childhood, with a big interrogation then as to how will I do to believe...
Yet, it feels as if it is forgotten sometimes that it is a role...

No there is no big I, when I was speaking of small I, it was just because it was seen as a small detail in the plain view, and as I say this now the plain view, the wide space is so intimate that it can easily be given a label : sense of I when it has in fact nothing to do with this...

That seems to be one key: seeing now is happening, this intimate taste is labelled with a sense of I...
> What exactly is the sense of I? Is that sense still here if it's not labelled? Check it.

not labelled, it is not here,  it never was seen before this link between "intimacy" and the sense of I and again this intimacy is a label which stops the present happening...

Thank you, it feels easy to look when writing to you,
I'll keep watching in waiting for your feedback,

Much love


Ilona:
Thank you for answer.

The experiences that you had of spaciousness were states. No state is permanent.  We are not looking for another state. We want to see what is here, constant, regardless of ever changing states.

Now look directly at this question and tell me what comes up-


What is happening not on automatic?
What requires an effort?

Really look at it in everyday situations.

Just this little step for now.

Sending love.

Ayanma:
Thank you,

> What is happening not on automatic?
> What requires an effort?


nothing... when looking... absolutely nothing and it is amazing... as the first movement is an I wanting to claim...
but also a question : who looks, whom you ask the question to, the "so familiar taste" belongs to whom...

I look since yesterday and turn around this, not really much to add right now...

Thanks,
Love,

Ilona:
Nice!

How does it feel to see this?
How does it show in your everyday experience?

Is there any doubt at all?



Much love!

Ayanma:
It feels quiet and spacious!
a relief... the questions cuts short any story...
so it feels lighter and quiet empty, as if the balloon was emptying itself...
no need to "force", to "do", to "look for"...  if any of this comes, it is seen as an idea appearing... no more,
so much more present to whatever it happening, like looking at what is happening without concern... yet with
interest... if this is the word...

all this is very "light", I do have to come back to the questions... but definitely there is a liberation's taste

Thanks so much,
I wait to hear from you,
Love,

Ilona:
How is it feeling today?

Ayanma;
Not sure... a bit speechless... and enjoying the absence of pressure...
It was so quick that mind wonders... is this real... it was seen already and then .... but not loud enough to really disturb...
who cares ?

Ilona:
Are you on Facebook? If so, we have an aftercare group where everyone who seen through illusion can share what comes after.  It is very helpful when feelings of stuckness come up. I'd love to invite you there.

Ayanma:
Yes I am on Facebook, thank you!


1) Is there a 'me', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever? 

No no me, pure fabrication, a so clever and sticky one!! Of course, there never was.

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works

A beautiful game of Consciousness... playing diversity more and more into all forms... so we believe we are separate individuals having a life to live, it is so serious and dramatic, we believe we are deciding, controlling... when it is just an appearance... it starts as soon as the child accepts his name and what he is told : you and I then starts, separation: me and the world, it will be reinforced by education and so on... me, mine how the young child repeats it and enjoys it... until it becomes suffering and search...

3)  How would you describe it to somebody who has never heard about this illusion but is curious about it.  

The metaphor of the ocean and the waves is usually working well to give a picture of the situation.

4)  What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

The last and first question in fact you asked: "What is happening not on automatic? "
this is pure jewel, it does really cut short all possible story.

5) what is the I that you are referring to? 

Consciousness seeing through these eyes.

Gratitude and wonder !!

Ilona:
Great answers, but there is one more clarification needed-

Consciousness is seeing through these eyes.
Can you expand on that please.

Is consciousness I? Does I exist in the form of consciousness? What is word I referring to?

Write what it's seen here.
Much love.

Ayanma:
Thanks,

no Consciousness is not I, it feels like a blank wide opened seeing from behind, it is impersonal or the seeing itself...

there is the use of I to refer to the apparent form, apparent character, but it is just a label, there is no "me" behind it.

Does that answer the question??

Love,

Ilona:
Yes! Great :))

Is it ok to put our conversation in my blog, so other guides can read and confirm? Also it may be helpful for someone else who is still looking.

I can use whatever name you like.
Much love


Ayanma:
Yes, of course you can use it, take a name you like.
Thank you so much :))

Tammy: When Curiosity Crept In The Journey Has Started..

I met Tammy in my tattoo chair. First time she came in and got a branch of orchids. Soon after she wanted it to grow. Happens a lot, tattoos tend to expand over body over time as they start shrinking in the mind. First it looks big, then it starts looking smaller and smaller...

We met again for the second session and made them flowers grow. It took a while so we talked and i mentioned what i do besides tattooing and all the LU stuff. Tammy got curious. She has never heard about no self before, she has never been a seeker and never read anything 'spiritual'. Yet curiosity got her. And little by little we started talking about what is really going on here.

The realisation came as Tammy investigated the question of control, and if she is really in control of what happens. once she saw that, the rest was easy.

We met once more for another extension of tattoo and the piece is complete. Same as Tammy's journey through the gateless gate. You know, the one that does not exist.

Here are the Final 5 questions that we give to all who cross, and here are Tammy's answers. And thank you Tammy for the orchids that sit on the window in my studio. :)


Tammy:
Is there a 'me', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever? 

There is no i / me controlling anything! Not controlling thoughts, not controlling seeing, not controlling hearing and not controlling decisions. In fact, no I / me controlling anything!

Thoughts come and go on their own and cant be stopped. So no i/me controlling thoughts either…hmmm, crazy huh!!

No, there was never a me, not ever because there is no me/i.

Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works.

Not totally sure when exactly the illusion starts, but society and parents give baby/child this identity and this belief that 'i' is in control of thoughts, decisions, hearing, seeing….life etc 

By living by this belief, when things go right in the individuals life, the individual thinks that this success is down to ‘me’ this is when egos are created and self praise starts. Conversely, when things go wrong, the individual also thinks that this is down to them, thus creating suffering. Thoughts and feelings of inadequacy, failure, hopelessness and sadness take over the ‘me’ that has been created and create this mental torture. 

Suffering is created when the mind creates its own story to sensations felt in the body. In the illusion, this is put down to 'us' being sad/unhappy etc when really its just mind creating a fabricated story from a sensation in the body. Sensations in the body come and go, but when mind gets involved, these sensations can be intensified and lead to fictional stories being created. This mental torture is constantly trying to seek approval from both external sources and ‘self’ in order to sort of reinstate the ‘ego’ as a successful ‘me’.
By seeing and accepting that ‘me’ is not in control of anything and life is just happening without a controller, life becomes a lot more simple, more relaxed and this mental torture diminishes!
'We' are just characters acting out the role just as the script says – under no control of anyone!

How does it feel to see this?

A rollercoaster of emotions would best describe ‘seeing this’

At first is seems crazy, impossible….of course there has to me a me/i!!?? Then as questions start to get answered and seeing becomes clearer then comes the confusion! How can this be? It can't be? It is true! How can it be true? IT IS TRUE! 

Then comes some anger – where have these lies come from? How can it be allowed? Why didn’t mum / friends / society tell ‘me’ the truth?

Still not done… next came some more confusion, followed by a sort of concentration phase where things were looked at and questioned closely, people, animals, life etc

Then came relief, happiness, a sort of understanding and a moment of just being! Some smiling, a little giggle, some excitement and butterflies in tummy! Questions still come up, but get answered a lot quicker and without worry.

How would you describe it to somebody who has never heard about this illusion but is curious about it. 

‘I’ had entered into this with total naivety and curiosity. Unlike others, ‘I’ had not been consciously searching for years, So entered into the journey with no expectations at all, just total curiosity and an ‘open mind’ to question and look. Plus in life at the time of looking, was surrounded by like minded people, so was interested in experiencing something new and testing thoughts and understanding.

Once ‘I’ watched the documentary on decisions and saw that ‘me’/’I’ did not control decisions it provided the first piece of truth to which the rest of the journey was built upon. If decisions are made in the brain, up to 6 seconds before they become apparent/clear/acted upon, then ‘I’ am not actually in control of the decisions made like we grow up thinking/assuming. 

Next was thoughts – they just come and go without any controller. All this time assuming that ‘I’ was controlling thoughts when really they are just coming and going!! 

So, if ‘I’ is not controlling thoughts and decisions, then what is ‘I’ actually? ‘I’ does not exist… if unsure, try and touch ‘I’???!!!! Did you manage to touch it? Or did you touch the physical body of the character you are playing???

Seeing through the illusion is a real awakening, quite refreshing and brings about a feeling of contentment.

Once the truth is seen, there is less pressure, less worry about the future and generally a sunnier outlook!
By looking there is nothing to lose, but everything to gain!

What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

Journey started just talking with Ilona whilst having a tattoo done! Then the curiosity crept in and the journey had fully started!

Coming from a sports background where success and failure is put down to the individual or team of individuals, ‘I’ had always had this feeling of unfulfillment, as if I had never achieved my full potential as a player, a coach and life in general. Life was spent constantly searching for the next thing, fearing failure and always seeking approval from others. Certain situations caused feelings of adversity, not because of the actual situation, but because of worrying what others would think. Trying to impress and be the best, rather than concentrating on the task in the here and now.

Once things started to be seen and ‘I’ realised that ‘I’ am not actually in control of any of it, merely acting out the role that has been assigned and life is just perfect, things became a lot better! Situations that had before caused anxiety, came and went with a feeling of lightness and enjoyment. Focusing on the ball / task without worrying meant 100% of energy was put into the job in hand! No point stressing about what may/may not happen, just concentrate on the present! 

The final push came in a period of darkness, conflict, family drama and problems! After being wonderfully guided through this conflict by Ilona and the realisation that sensations in the body come and go, but when mind gets involved, these sensations can be intensified and lead to fictional stories being created! Everything suddenly became so simple!!!

Dacre: LOOK Directly At It.

Ilona: 
Hi Dacre, thank you for a very nice message. Please introduce yourself here a little and let's start digging. 

What do you expect from this conversation?
What do you imagine seeing the truth is going to be like?

Make a list of all that you are hoping for and do so without holding back, with 100% honesty. 

Looking forward to your answer. 
Much love.

Dacre:
Hi Ilona, I have been seeking for almost 30 years. Started with Buddhism, meditation retreats, etc, then over the years much involvement in New Age, healing, motivational seminars, and with numerous often very clear spiritual teachers. Strangely, I seemed to gain a lot from everything I have done only to lose it months, weeks, days, sometimes only hours later. None of it amounted to anything is my feeling now. Wasted money, wasted life. 

From this conversation I expect the truth, whatever that is. I expect that the eternal, infernal seeking and endless longing will come to an end. 

I imagine that "seeing the truth" may be a non-event, but it will mean that life will be living itself, beautifully, spontaneously, with all its ups and downs, but without the interference of an I who imagines that it controls everything and needs to control everything and with all the exhaustive burdens, guilt, and heavy responsibility that goes with that. 

I have suffered with anxiety and depression almost my entire life. While I don't expect this lifelong habit to change overnight necessarily, I do hope that seeing the "me" for what it is will remove the shame and self-blame associated with these states, to allow life to flow, open up and sort itself out naturally. 

Ilona:
"It will mean that life will be living itself, beautifully, spontaneously, with all its ups and downs, but without the interference of an I."

That is already the case. Life is life-ing and no I is interfering with that. 

Let's get you seeing that. 

Tell me, where do the thoughts come from? Can you control them; can you stop thinking at will? 
Just take a good look and write what comes up.

Dacre:
Yes, that is already the case, but the content of the mind is filled in part with thoughts about how I am in partial control and have a role to play. Intellectually I know this is not the case, and even direct looking seems not to support it but the feeling nevertheless persists. 

"Where do thoughts come from?" They arise from nothing, from nowhere. Or kind of like some space around the head area. I cannot control them or I would certainly have better ones than I usually do. On the other hand the mind seems to be able to be programmed to some degree. Is there an I entity doing this? No. Again just thoughts arising..

I definitely cannot stop thinking at will, though thoughts will quieten on their own when left alone to just be, eg. with meditation, etc.

Ilona:
Content of the mind is just thoughts. Do thoughts have to be true? Thoughts can be about real or about unreal. 

But they are never the real. So if you don't take that content seriously, is there a problem with anything? 

Life is already full. Including that feeling of control. Is there anything personal about that feeling? If you look closer, can you catch it when it's felt? 

Control appear to be coming of me. But see if it's true. Is there a controller?

Dacre:
Yeah, there is nothing in the mind but thoughts, feelings, imagination. Some thoughts seem to be truer pointers than others. But even thoughts about real things aren't actually real. The thought 'tree' is never the tree itself..

"If you don't take that content seriously, is there a problem with anything?" No, there isn't. I was going to say, what about real "problems" in life that you have to take seriously? The content of thoughts seems to matter then. But they don't really do they? Great sadness or grief or anger can happen on its own. It doesn't need an ongoing thought commentary to translate everything that happens. Life can live itself through the body and mind through its natural intelligence with or without the content of thought. Anger isn't a problem unless you 'think' it is. 

The feeling of "control" can be a part of life. And no there is nothing personal about that feeling. There can't be. It appears to come from 'me', but me is just another thought arising, as is the feeling/thought of control. 

And yet there is still a subtle feeling of a controller here. So I will have to look at the whole mechanism a while longer and then get back to you.

Ilona:
Great! You are getting close. 

Yes, life goes on including thoughts about life and those thoughts are only commentary, not the driving force of life. 

So now look closer at language and how it's working. 

Every noun points to some object, real or imaginary.
Every verb points to action
Put them both together and we get a sentence that is a label for movement, action, doing. 

I walk, you read, fingers type, batman flies and table stands. 

Is there I in walking?

Is there you in reading?

Is it fingers typing? 

Does table do standing? 


Play with this a bit and tell me, what is the word I pointing to? 

Is there a doer in the doing? 

Is there a thinker in thinking? 


Sending love.

Dacre:
Hi Ilona,

"I walk, you read, fingers type, batman flies and table stands.

Is there I in walking?

Is there you in reading?

Is it fingers typing? 

Does table do standing?"


There is no "I" in walking, no "you" in reading, the fingers don't 'do' typing, and the table doesn't do standing. This, as you say, is all a function of how language operates. It deludes the mind into thinking that there is a subject and object, a separate person who is initiating the action. But this is merely a description in words. All of the above actions are simply happening. Then there is an interpretation after the fact that "I" did it or whatever. It can be subtle and insidious, but ultimately it's all words or thoughts. And words or thoughts are not the reality that they are pointing to. 

'I am sitting'. I can see that the I in this sentence is completely superfluous, unnecessary. What we label sitting is just happening, or is. Yet words aren't a problem when you don't take them for reality, but simply as tools to be used as needed. 

"What is the word I pointing to?" 

Perhaps I can say that the word I is pointing to the action or state of the body/mind, eg. I am sitting, provides information on what is happening. On the other hand, the word I is not really pointing to anything, as the I is a fiction, a word that is part of a story, not a real, actual thing. 

"Is there a doer in the doing?" Again, it's only language that says there's a doer, you can't find one in reality. There is simply the doing. There doesn't have to be a doer. Things happen or don't happen. No doer, except in language, in words, in interpretation. Not in reality. 

"Is there a thinker in thinking?" No. There can't be if thoughts just come out of nowhere, out of thin air. Any initiator of thoughts in any case would just be another thought, with no thinker behind that either. 

It seems like thoughts just arise on their own, probably due to genetics, habits and environmental conditioning. They just appear, just are, like a bird sings or dog barks. But we think they're ours and suffering and seeking of some kind inevitably ensues. So yeah, in a literal sense, I'd say the word I points to nothing in reality. There's no actual I or me or mine, just life happening spontaneously. And lots of stories!

Ilona:
Awesome! 

How does it feel to see this?

Dacre:
"How does it feel to see this?"

I don't really feel anything that much. Everything I've written down I have known for many years. Although I think it might be the first time I've actually written it down. There has been a lot of depression here for a long time and it still persists. 

As for the seeing through the illusion of a 'me' or 'I'. In my twenties I saw several psychiatrists with the central problem that I did not have a "self", there was simply nothing there. Nobody at home. This was diagnosed as Depersonalisation Disorder (probably erroneously). There is a feeling here that all our descriptions of life and reality are conceptual, almost kind of arbitrary and made up, but what we are and what life is is non-conceptual. Just is. All explanations are bullshit. Which certainly doesn't mean they're not worthwhile! Or that stories aren't fun and entertaining. All action-reaction. Neurons firing in the brain. "I" am their product not their cause. Everything on automatic. One Universal whole. No separation. No separation from life. We ARE life. 

So I suppose I mean to say that deep down life is 'good', in a non-value judgement kind of way. How does it feel? There is sometimes being carried away by the story, other times clarity. Sometimes sky high elation, but mostly depression. Life expressing itself! 

Thank you Ilona. Your pointers are very, very clear and help me concentrate and clarify things. I feel better because of it. No doubt about it.

Ilona:
This is cool, you can open up, all those years you have been seeing it. Wow. 
Depression? How is it feeling these days? 
What is the main feeling there? Can you identify it? What is behind those feelings? 

:)

Dacre:
Hi Ilona, I am going to have to log off in a minute but will think about the depression over the next day or so, what's the core feeling or reason behind it and so on. I do know it's confusing and there are many reasons I can think of. But will get back to you..

Ilona:
Cool, spend some time with it. But don't over think it, don't look for the reason as that is mental stuff, rather look feelings themselves as a mechanism and what is behind all that. Employ curiosity for how it works rather than what is the content of depression. 

I’m here any time you are ready to continue. 

Much love.

Dacre:
To be honest, I'm not quite sure what you were getting at in your last post, but here is what I've discovered.

Every time there is a thought of the future, it triggers depression: things will stay the same, I cannot or don't want to change. No job, no money, no assets, no relationships, no qualifications, addictions, poor physical and mental health, etc., etc. I don't want to die destitute and alone. The core feeling behind all the other feelings is fear, fear of change, fear of people in general. I can't really get in touch with it much but I just sort of know that this is it. The fear is derived from very early childhood abuse and being attacked, etc. So just deep conditioning that has stayed in the body and mind. 

Sometimes I find it all a bit funny because what is the future anyway, a completely made up thing. There is no future (or past), except in the mind now. And it's always now! And focusing on an imaginary 'me' on a timeline into an imaginary future is also a bit of runaway fiction ultimately. Now's generally ok, and now is all there ever is. So sometimes there is this Seeing and there is not a problem with any depression or anything else. At other times there is getting caught up in the story because it's so frightening and I still have to live a practical life. Food, shelter, the basics. For me, this isn't happening. I am having to rely on others, so the depression (with meaninglessness and apathy), is triggered. At other times life is fine just as it is. 

I don't know what the solution to any of this is. Does it need a solution? Or just observation of the mechanism. If the unreal is seen as unreal, mind stuff, then can it be a problem?

Ilona:
You stopped at a very interesting question... Can unreal be a problem? 

If you know that all thoughts are about real or unreal, but never THE real, do they have to be taken so seriously? 

Yes it's always now. Would that worried voice be missed, if it wasn't here? That one that looks into the future, worried about 'me'. So when you see that me is not, there is nothing to worry about in the future. 

Keep talking. You are getting it. :)

Dacre:
What do you mean that all thoughts are about real or unreal but never THE real? I'll just clarify to make sure I understand you properly. Real is like chair or sky. Real things. Unreal is like Santa Claus or Batman, unreal, fictional things. But ALL are thoughts. Not things, not real, words and thoughts making up stories. Stories about me or you or them or us...

If this is what you mean then no, they don't have to be taken seriously. No thoughts have to be taken seriously. No thoughts have to dictate reality and cause psychological suffering. "Can the unreal be a problem?" No! 

Future, past, me, them...it's the 'thoughts' of them that cause the horrible sensations in the body and the awful suffering in the mind. Not Reality itself. And even if they are taken seriously out of habit. THAT doesn't have to be taken seriously, but seen instead as thought story. Not the REAL. 

My mind is non-stop commentary. Absolutely non-stop! Even as I am writing this. But it is not really real in the same way that just Being here is real, the room is real, typing, etc. Life lifeing, I think you say. So the worried voice would not be missed, the me would not be missed. It would be such relief without them! Without these concepts the default position is Now. As it ever was. Now with all its feelings, thoughts, sensations but not taken seriously, that is, formulated into a story of my life and the need to fix it. My life is a story, it arises, it's there, but it is fiction. The me is an idea given to me in childhood which I believed all my life. But it is not real is it? A concept is a concept. Not reality. Freedom from suffering is seeing and living that. Such thoughts also have no actual substance and don't even exist if you don't believe them. What is real will exist whether believed in or not. 'I' is not like that. So "I" am not here now and was never here. Except as a believed in concept. Maybe not even that.. Just an occasional idea in the mind. 

The end of it I suppose, is that "me" is not even here. Only living..

Ilona:
The end of is when it's seen that there never was an I to start with. 

Now look up into the past, like a childhood memory and see if there is an I in there, then go few year into the future and see if the future me is there. 

Keep talking. You are getting through nicely. 
Is there a gate?

Dacre:
A childhood memory: falling over as a child and breaking arm, strange sensations of numbness and pain signals to/from brain, thoughts arising to get help, driving to hospital, thoughts/complaints about pain, general anaesthetic, morphine, weird sensations, happiness to leave hospital. Talking. No I involved in any of this just sensation and a reaction to it. No I needed to make it all happen. Stories of 'I' did this or that came later but not at the time of intense or strange sensations and circumstances. 

"go few years into the future and see if the future me is there". From my experience the me is always in the future. The future is usually some story about me or what I will do or not do. But it's all happening in the present. Very ephemeral and changeable. It's a story that arises automatically. I don't make it happen. So there is no I that is doing anything now. And as it is always now. Then also there is no I in the future. Also the I in thought is not real, but a thought. 

"Is there a gate?" If there is no actual I except as a thought, then passing through the "gate" is just seeing this. But since this was ALWAYS the case, then there is no gate. It's just seeing the truth of what is and what always was. There's no enlightenment, nothing tangible to find. Only something to lose, an imagined I who thought it was in control, but was only ever a thought. And as a thought it has no actual power. It can appear to have power if believed in but in reality it is harmless, powerless, just a word or idea. It doesn't matter if it is there or not. 

It's recently become clearer that I have spent years trying to figure this out mentally. When ultimately it's a non-problem. If I can see there is no REAL I here and never was, then WHO can understand and WHAT? Thought can never get it. Thought churns over and over trying to 'get it'. But if it's not in thought then the answer can't be there. There's nothing to get, And nowhere to go. Only here. Thought doesn't like this at all but its truth. And truth isn't about mental knowledge.

Ilona:
Is there a you in any shape or form in reality?

How does it feel to see this?

Dacre:
"is there a you in any shape or form in reality?"

There is no me in any shape or form in reality. There can be a thought I in a story told about "me". But the thought I doesn't refer to anything at all. It's just a thought. It refers to nothing. One bit of story referring to another bit. No I at all in reality. 

"How does it feel to see this?" 

I feel sort of lighter. Also like there is just one reality or feeling of spaciousness, and no I apart from it.

Ilona:
That's so delightful to hear. 

:) I see you are through, let's get you answer a few last questions.
How would you explain, describe this illusion to somebody interested, but not familiar with it? 

What was that last thing that made you look and see?

Dacre:
At a very young age we are told that our body and thoughts are ours. We are given a name and identity. And are led to believe that this identity is in control and is responsible for everything we do. It is an identity solely in thought but it can lead to thought based stories of great tragedy or delight. But LOOK directly at it. The "I" is a thought only, it does not refer to anything in reality. It does not exist in reality. Only as a thought. And you can't control your thoughts ultimately, they just appear out of nowhere with no author. You can see this just by observation or even better, with the help of someone who has seen through the illusion. The answer to the great yearning of life for fulfilment and satisfaction is not in the mind. It is right here and now, and in seeing through the false apparent reality of the controller me. Without that, life flows more easily, freely, and is free of psychological suffering, through apparent good times or bad. In essence, "you" are not a problem and never were, there is nothing wrong with you. The you that you think you are, you're not. What you are is nameless. You could call it life itself, or existence or presence or awareness, or nothing. You are already free. It is just a matter of seeing through the thought illusion that makes you think you are in bondage. The bondage is not real. Just a story. You are not a story. 

"What was the last thing that made you look and see?"

It was kind of a matter of already knowing it but still trying to use the mind to figure it out and just stopping that. Another thing was reading another post just recently on this site about how the I is no more real than the tooth fairy or Santa. The I was in the same league as them. Not real. Also just sitting down and looking directly for myself, at thoughts, at the space or nothing they arise in, at reality as it actually is.

Ilona:
Perfect. 

Let it settle.. We will speak tomorrow. 
I'm so happy for you. 

Much love.

Dacre:

How is life feeling today?
Is there any doubt at all? 

Love!

Dacre:
Ilona, there is no doubt at all about this, it's clear, which feels good. But the background mood here is low or flat, and the physical body feels heavy and a bit unwell, which is all normal for me. 

I will be away from the computer for two days so I want to leave it a little while longer and then check in again on Friday. 

....................Few days later..................

Hi Ilona, I have been very busy and not so much sleep the last couple of days, the usual light depression and physical illness. But there are differences. I notice less of a boundary between the body/mind and the environment I'm in. A subtle feeling that I am the awareness or space outside of me too, which gives a feeling of solidity and security (and love?).. This is in stark contrast to the diffuseness and fear and confusion that this situation engendered 20 years ago or so. A kind of full presence rather than a void or absence. Someone else might use these concepts differently but I hope I'm getting across what I mean. 

More observations: 

Much less thinking (ie. worrying), about the future. 

Basically the same mild depression, anxiety and fatigue, which fluctuates, as it has done for 30 years. The mind is as noisy as ever, like a radio on all the time, sometimes in the foreground, sometimes in the background. The I story is going on as usual, but the difference is that it is as if floating in the air in and around the body, like it has nothing or little to do with me but just goes on from decades of habit and conditioning, like stuck in a loop..

I've also realised that if I just look at the bad feelings that arise WITHOUT the story, the 'I' story, then they dissolve. With the believed in story they go on for hours or days.. but without the story, that is, seeing the story as a story, just thoughts, not real, then the feelings and sensations in the body hang around for a much shorter time. So there is more freedom in that...more ease, more space, more peace.

So everything is the same except for these subtle differences. They are subtle but distinct. I get the feeling they have a life of their own, and will deepen or expand over time....... to reveal the actual timelessness that is already here and now, you could say... which is kind of intuited but not really directly seen yet.

I feel like there is more of a relaxing into Being, and some insights... If the story is not real then we are never REALLY caught up in it. We are free, but dreaming we're not. The story is wafer thin when looked at directly but unobserved appears so full and important. We seem to get lost but never really leave our true 'home'. 

Here, it's a bit like the self is still believed in, but in a very detached way. There is a play-acting of seriousness going on rather than an actual real life tragedy. The whole world drama is like a vast movement and field of intertwining energies. One movement appearing as many, happening on its own. 

'My' life is happening on its own. Things just are as they are without needing to label everything in the mind. "I" can't do a thing about it anyway, except maybe look at reality, SEE clearly, as is happening...

For example, it's not "my" depression, just a label for thoughts and sensations arising in a body and mind. Nothing is 'wrong' ultimately with 'me' or my life. 

This afternoon I was walking along a suburban footpath looking at the shops and the clouds and the sky and the people, and there was a feeling of the possibility of the joy of just Being, of just simply existing, of existence itself. 

The mind still occasionally wants to try to figure this out. But I cannot understand this. I is a piece of content in the context of all This. I am, if anything, what the mind and body arise in, timeless, spaceless, aware, alive, uncaused happiness or peace. Or name it whatever you want, the naming or concepts don't matter at all. They're irrelevant. 

Finally, I have to say that there is less interest in the mind stories generally and in the seeking of happiness there. Being or spirit or peace already is here, what I am. It's pretty foggy at times but I think the clouds are slowly clearing.. In any case, when it's seen that the stories and the me aren't real, it doesn't matter what is here and what is not. No I (for real), no problem.

..................

Just saw clearly how thoughts, feelings, stories (appearances, fictions), can't affect REALITY, here, now. At all. Nice.

Ilona:
Welcome home, dacre. 
Isn't that most amazing, we never have left. And yet it feel so good to return. 
Your description is very clear. Loved reading it. And I resonate with how you see. 

Nice story :)

Are you on Facebook? If so, friend me and I'll invite you to fb unleashed. You can also use the new section on this forum :)

Looking forward to meet you :) its was a pleasure to work with you. Thank you.

Dacre:
Thank you so much Ilona, for your wonderfully clear pointers and questions, and your lovely nature. What a great service you provide. Short and to the point. So simple! I enjoyed it.

I don't think I am on Facebook but will join and friend you.. Looking forward to it. Thank you once again..