Jonatan: Suddenly This Emptiness Was Not Just Emptiness, But Emptiness Of Self

Jonatan

7/18/13

Hey Ilona

Thanks again for your quick response yesterday on facebook - really appreciate it! :)

I really want to end the search, so tired of it..
After your last message I had an interesting reaction.. Part of me was excited, but another part was deeply scared.. Scared of loosing yoga and freediving, because I might not "need" it,  if I find peace.. On top of that, with your sentence of ending the search, I found that I was  scared of being disappointed.. I've felt some times in my life I would finally find peace, and ended up deeply disappointed, cus nothin' happend.. I guess nothin' should "happen", but.. Well.. I don't know.. Just don't know how and what to do..
Lately I've been very positive and happy, but I haven't "shifted" yet, when do you know anyway?
Hope it's not to confusing.. Just my current thoughts.
Thanks again

Best regards,
Jonatan

Ilona 
7/19/13

Hi Jonatan,

Thank you for email.
I know what you mean, there is excitement and fear of not knowing...
Ok, we can start by examining all your expectations, look them all up and bring them here..
Make a list of what you expect that awakening is?
What do you want to gain from awakening?
What you do not want it to be?
How do you imagine that it should happen?

When you write all them down, take another look, spend more time and dig out subtle, secret expectations.

The more you can catch now, the easier it will be further on the journey. It's a big task, I know, remember, honesty is the key here in this work.

Sending love.

Jonatan 
7/20/13

Hey there Ilona and thanks a bunch for response! :)

So I've written it all down, looked it over, started over and gave it a lot of thinking, feel like I can't get more out now..

1) - I guess I've seen awakening as a big thing, a big bang-realization of some sort, which you needed to "earn". Startin' to see it might not be..
- Most of all - Freedom! Freedom from all the blattering of thoughts, feelings, identification with your body etc, not necessarily an absence of these, but true understanding that I'm not my feelings, thoughts or body.
- A regaining of my free will, freeing from life-long illusions of self and "me" as Jonatan. A oneness with all and neverending bliss and awareness, and also a revelation of my "true" purpose in this life, or something, which sounds a bit weird just typing it.
- The end of problems, suffering, a realization that reveals that life and everything that comes with it, is perfect! The start of a perfect life, or something like that.. hmm.. To truly understand what life, love, death and everything is all about - like an all-knower.. Sounds pretty weird now as well..
- "Like a blind that can suddenly see for the first time and everything for him changes, but the world haven't changed"

2) - I want to gain freedom from my thought, feelings and identification with my body. To gain freedom to do what is truly right for me, and not what I've been told, or keep telling myself is real, to know "me".
- Want to gain happiness, peace, new form of energy to share, but deeply also just wanna learn if enlightenment is real, does it really exist or am I just finding myself in another illusion?
- To feel "alive" and present, to just be here, not needing to be heading anywhere, but knowing I can do it for the good of others! To be able to live life to the fullest and being completely authentic, and on that account help others to see, and do the same! I'm afraid that I might also seek recognizion on that account, that's also why I want to let go of my ego, cus I'm sick of being controlled, not knowing if it's me or the ego speaking! Guess I thought awakening would make me special, to be "better" than others, which I know is ridiculous, but it's still in there.
- To be happy!

3) - Yesterday I was afraid to loose freediving and Ashtanga Yoga, but now I realize, as you said the other day, that yoga is not a means of awakening, and realizing that, I don't see it as a means of searching anymore, but rather an interest.. I know it will never give me the peace I've been searching for, so that fear seems to have dissipated now. Still there might be a small amount of fear to loose, since I see so much beauty in it!
- Though, I am afraid that this will be another disappointment, cus I've made awakening up to be such a big thing, that this seems to simple to be true - having a hard time to believe it I guess.. Afraid to have to keep searching (also cus I know it's futile, but don't know how to end it), cus I so want to now what enlightenment is, and why I'm drawn to it, so scared that it's not what I hope, but just another illusion! :/

4) - Like I said earlier, I've always seen it as some kind of personal Big Bang, a radical change and a vision of some sort to "close the deal", or something like that - hah!
- Guess I imagined it to happen when I have "earned" it, after a looooooong search and dedicated practice of some sort and when I least expect it, at the brim of giving up and BAMM.. I'm just starting to understand that it's probably not like that, it's just the expectations from all the books and stories I've read..

Is it really is just a story I've made up and still holding on to? Blattered by all others expectations, intertwined by my own or something like that.

Felt like this was my most honest reflections, I hope it is..

Wish you the best and thanks, :)

Oh, and an add to question 2. Guess I've always thought that by waking up everything is possible, to be superhuman and do amazing things - again a way to give myself recognition.. hmm...
...............
Sorry to make another add, but realized my biggest fear, really is to loose "me", of all the interests in learning about myself, body, life etc.. A fear or contentment maybe, that I won't need to explore more, no need for yoga, freediving, education, reading or anything, since I don't "need" it.. Fear of loosing all I've come to love, I reckon.. Suddenly struck me.. Like I expect awakening to make me a lazy monk just sitting in a cave not needing anything.. Fear of loosing interest in travelling and everything else.. Hope you understand!

Thanks again.. Freaked me out a bit..
Jonatan

Ilona
7/20/13
Hey Jonatan, thank you very much for taking time to answer this and for your honesty. I'm going to comment below.

1) - I guess I've seen awakening as a big thing, a big bang-realization of some sort, which you needed to "earn". Startin' to see it might not be..

One thing you can be sure of it's not what you expect so all and any expectation are what stands in the way of seeing things as they are. Expectations are like lenses that try to fit what is into a frame of understanding. It's not going to work, so it's best to leave them all aside.  

awakening is more like drop of belief, rather then gaining an insight.
It's pretty much like when kid believes in Santa and one day he finds out that there is no Santa, it was a lie, a fairy tale, there never was a Santa, neither before nor ever will be.  When we believe something it may appear real, till we see that it was just a belief.  So it's not a big boom, more like puff. Don't need to earn that.

- Most of all - Freedom! Freedom from all the blattering of thoughts, feelings, identification with your body etc, not necessarily an absence of these, but true understanding that I'm not my feelings, thoughts or body.

Nice, yes.

- A regaining of my free will, freeing from life-long illusions of self and "me" as Jonatan. A oneness with all and neverending bliss and awareness, and also a revelation of my "true" purpose in this life, or something, which sounds a bit weird just typing it. 

Yes, very weird.

- The end of problems, suffering, a realization that reveals that life and everything that comes with it, is perfect! The start of a perfect life, or something like that.. hmm.. To truly understand what life, love, death and everything is all about - like an all-knower.. Sounds pretty weird now as well..

Kind of normal expectation, but it's too, not what happens.
Everything is perfect already. It's a matter of noticing.


- "Like a blind that can suddenly see for the first time and everything for him changes, but the world haven't changed"

Yes, yes, a shift in perception.  Nothing changes, but it is seen differently.


2) - I want to gain freedom from my thought, feelings and identification with my body. To gain freedom to do what is truly right for me, and not what I've been told, or keep telling myself is real, to know "me".

Quite the opposite.
There is freedom from my, me and mine.


- Want to gain happiness, peace, new form of energy to share, but deeply also just wanna learn if enlightenment is real, does it really exist or am I just finding myself in another illusion?

You will go to find out if the I that can get enlightened exists ;)

- To feel "alive" and present, to just be here, not needing to be heading anywhere, but knowing I can do it for the good of others! To be able to live life to the fullest and being completely authentic, and on that account help others to see, and do the same! I'm afraid that I might also seek recognizion on that account, that's also why I want to let go of my ego, cus I'm sick of being controlled, not knowing if it's me or the ego speaking! Guess I thought awakening would make me special, to be "better" than others, which I know is ridiculous, but it's still in there.

Haha, sweet. Only there is no ego.

3) - Yesterday I was afraid to loose freediving and Ashtanga Yoga, but now I realize, as you said the other day, that yoga is not a means of awakening, and realizing that, I don't see it as a means of searching anymore, but rather an interest.. I know it will never give me the peace I've been searching for, so that fear seems to have dissipated now. Still there might be a small amount of fear to loose, since I see so much beauty in it!


Don't worry, what is true does not disappear. You can only loose that which is not serving you,

- Though, I am afraid that this will be another disappointment, cus I've made awakening up to be such a big thing, that this seems to simple to be true - having a hard time to believe it I guess.. Afraid to have to keep searching (also cus I know it's futile, but don't know how to end it), cus I so want to now what enlightenment is, and why I'm drawn to it, so scared that it's not what I hope, but just another illusion! :/

I had the same fear too. And no it's not what you hope. It's something different.


4) - Like I said earlier, I've always seen it as some kind of personal Big Bang, a radical change and a vision of some sort to "close the deal", or something like that - hah!

Yes.  But it's not just an end it's a beginning too.

- Guess I imagined it to happen when I have "earned" it, after a looooooong search and dedicated practice of some sort and when I least expect it, at the brim of giving up and BAMM.. I'm just starting to understand that it's probably not like that, it's just the expectations from all the books and stories I've read..

You just need to be ready to look, that's all.


Oh, and an add to question 2. Guess I've always thought that by waking up everything is possible, to be superhuman and do amazing things - again a way to give myself recognition.. hmm...

Good one!! Hahaha
It's actually very ordinary. And it's not a loss..

Sorry to make another add, but realized my biggest fear, really is to loose "me", of all the interests in learning about myself, body, life etc.. A fear or contentment maybe, that I won't need to explore more, no need for yoga, freediving, education, reading or anything, since I don't "need" it.. Fear of loosing all I've come to love, I reckon.. Suddenly struck me.. Like I expect awakening to make me a lazy monk just sitting in a cave not needing anything.. Fear of loosing interest in travelling and everything else.. Hope you understand!

Thanks again.. Freaked me out a bit..

Yes, I understand, it's only a fear.  How can you loose something that does not exist? It's not possible.

Imagine you are holding a melon in between your hands.  Close your eyes and feel it. Smell it, weight it, experience it as fully as you can. For a minute just hold the melon.

When you open your eyes, what happened to the melon?

Write to me what triggered biggest reaction.
And if you are ready to take the next step. That means all your expectations got to be left behind, from now on it is best to stop reading, watching videos on the subject and look in your own experience describing it in your own words as you see it. You are going to take a fresh look at what is already obvious.  

Sending love.

Jonatan
7/22/13

Hey Ilona - Hope you had a great day yesterday!

Many of the things you've answered I heard in some context before, but very nice just to clarify, cus my beliefs and expectations has been many, but a relief getting rid of them!

I was mostly surprised though by the fact that there's no ego.. I thought the thoughts were a trick of the ego, but if it doesn't exist, then what are thoughts and where do they come from?

I can totally see the necessity to let go of the expectations, noticed how all day my thoughts were labelling awakening in a new light, but I was aware enough to see it. Takes up so much space in the head.. But after reading your answers I looked deeply behind the thoughts, and once again noticed the presence behind it. But the spell broke by a thought saying: "Now what?" :p
Like yes, I see that I am not the thoughts, and there is a silent presence behind it, but don't know what to make of it/do with it..

Oh, and love the simple fact of "a drop of belief, like santa". Makes it much more down to earth than that fairytale state I put it in.

Like the simplicity of your answers. A freedom from "my, me and mine", and "it's not what you hope. It's something different." Also, heard so much about the soul etc, so realize now I've always had some hope that there was some "core" in my, like the soul, a true "me", but see that if there's no me, then it's not true! :)

That I need to look a new is more difficult, but feel like somethings fell with being aware of letting go of expectations. No need to "know" anymore.

I am very ready to go on, if you think I am of course!

One question though.. Am I the silent presence behind the thoughts? And if nothin' is permanent, then does that presence change? Felt that presence many times, but had they idea if I keep delving into that presence I would suddenly see that I'm "it", or something.. Hope you understand, not sure I do! :p

Noticed how body works on it's own without thoughts, though suddenly "I" appear again and sense of control and separate self is there.. Recognizing that it's just a thought, somehow not seems so clear.. The attachment to thoughts, feelings, a person etc etc.. Of course there's nothing wrong with that, but the "personal attachment" seems to be hard to let go of.. To "SEE" that it's just a thought and not "me"..
I did experience though, by NOT trying to do anything.. To "let" things happen effortlessly, to not force anything, things obviously calm down and takes care of themselves.. To just listen to "your heart/intuition/within" or how to put it, things create themselves effortlessly, easier and not as expected (this can easily create tension if there's a hope or expectation of a different scenario of course).. Trying to have faith in this unknown unfolding, though of course, mind rejects and if not aware, it takes a lot of attention and energy, cus of attachment, resistance etc.

Well, focusing on how body moves, eyes look around and things happen, but attachment when "I-thought" pops-up seems strong and a response is needed, control.. This happens again the way it happens, but why does it feel like it's needed to be seen differently? To not "be the thoughts", but just see them as thoughts..
Also, sometimes it's like some of the contents of thoughts seem too important to just let go.. Like there's just too much attachment to dare to let them go I suppose..

The other day there was resistance I had all day, then I forgave "myself" for not accepting it, for resisting it and so forth.. Really calmed down after that..

Well again, just trying to put in a lot of words, in case it clarifies something.. :)
Things still fall away I guess, but it seems like whole days of resistance and tension is needed to be able to let it go later during the day..

Hope to hear from you!

Best wishes,
Jonatan

Ilona

Ok, how these thoughts attach and to what exactly? Is me thought sticky? What is the glue made of?
There is an expectation at play, something that says, this should be different. Can you look into that and tell me what exactly is not as it should be?
I thought pops up, should it no longer pop up?
Is it I that controls what is happening? Is I the orchestrator, the puppet master of life?


The other day there was resistance I had all day, then I forgave "myself" for not accepting it, for resisting it and so forth.. Really calmed down after that..

Resistance shows up, if that is resisted, you get yourself in a loop. Noticing resistance and appreciating it really calms it down. It starts melting, and in the end there is surrender.

Well again, just trying to put in a lot of words, in case it clarifies something.. :)
Things still fall away I guess, but it seems like whole days of resistance and tension is needed to be able to let it go later during the day..

It will keep falling.. Good news- there is nowhere to land. :) when shit comes up, it comes up to be cleared. Trust that. All is unfolding as it should. Even if it does not seem like that at some moments. It still is.

Hope to hear from you!

....................................................................

A HUNDRED OR SO EMAILS LATER...

......................................................................

Jonatan

27/04/2014

Hey Ilona

So I sat yesterday and went through a lot of old emotions, with lots of resistance and could barely remember what this no self stuff was about in the turmoil.. Then I just read some of Gateless Gatecrashers, and Jamie's liberation.. His reaction to the simplicity to how simple this was, that he could barely believe it made "me" look properly.. "I" looked and saw nothing, like it's been all the time, but then I saw an expectation of: "There's gotta be more than this", and suddenly saw, that this expectation has kept me wanting more! Geez.. So simple.. Just look, there's nothing there.. Mind keeps wanting more, but there's a sense of peace and when feelings and thoughts come, they're looked at like: "Where do you attach? Who is feeling this?" There's just silence and they fade away.. I thought keeps popping up of course, then there's a feeling of "someone there", but then the thought disappears again, and it's gone..

So there's no glue to the I thought - the only thing that comes close is resistance, which makes it push back or reappear more strongly or something..

I thought is not the puppet master, but it claims to be, in every given experience..
And very accurate when you wrote: "Resistance shows up, if that is resisted, you get yourself in a loop. Noticing resistance and appreciating it really calms it down. It starts melting, and in the end there is surrender."

Been through some loops lately, and couldn't understand why it felt like they didn't just disappear like many other feelings, but kept reappearing Thought this makes it clear!

So many things have fallen away the last one and a half monht of so, but was not quite clear why, until I saw the "the hole/void/emptiness" everything disappeared into was not just emptiness, but emptiness of self..

Still seems to simple to be true, but "I'll" keep focus and dig into everything that pops up.. Mind tries new ways of keeping up the appearance of a self..

Is this really it Ilona? So simple? :)
Maybe the simplicity needs to sink in a little longer..

Wish you the best and hope to hear from you soon ;),
Jonatan

Ilona
Yes! It's is that simple!!  This is it. No where for the thoughts to sticks, no one that gets affected by them. And even if it appears that thoughts stick, it's seen through quickly. Great!
Now I see, that you see.
Of course, this is not an end to anything, but an opening, a start of clearing, a real fresh beginning. It may not seem as much, but when it settles, ir changes everything! Simple and obvious. Yeah

I'm so happy for you. Big smile!

Sending love.

Jonatan
Hey Ilona

Felt like taking a few days to let it settle.. Funny how there is/was quite some disappointment, which switched from sadness, because of the letting go of all these fantasies, dreams etc to so much laughter from this "cosmic joke" (such a precise expression if you ask me).. Not knowing whether to laugh or cry.. So many books read and re-read, videos, travelling, frustrations etc etc. Nah, easy choice.. Laughing is healthier ;) Just still hard to understand the simplicity of it, though it is ever present .. Speaking of not knowing.. I realized how none of all this can ever be known or understood.. Came to be as a laughing epiphany - the not knowing of how anything actually work, cus how can it? Or is it just me?

And where does this "self-development" come from? Who started branding this? Hopefully it started as an ironic joke, and then it just went wrong! Well good luck developing out there.. Anyway - Did "my" part for sure.. hehe.. Though didn't get to spend quite 25 years as a seeker.. Thank God..

Also, I guess this clearing fase can take some time? Everything is coming up to be seen in a new light.. But there's a lightness to it all, and even though thoughts still focus for a short or longer time, it always comes back to be seen with "new eyes".. Not surprised that it needs to rebalance after so many years in a "system of self" to a change to "no self"..

One thing I am curious to ask about.. Now above I mentioned not knowing, but sometimes there are these "knownings", or what to call them.. Ideas, intuitions concerning people to talk to, when to talk to them etc etc.. Like there's a "clue givin" now, but there's a knowing that right now patience is needed, and it'll unfold naturally - as in, no action is needed in contacting this person or doing anything now, but keep it in mind or something.. Had them before, and recently, but right now it's clearer.. Is this just commonly known as normal intuition, or do you have any thoughts on this? If it makes any sense of course.. :)

Anyway.. I feel ready for the final questions if you think so too :)

Oh and.. Thank you so much for your patience!!!!!!!!!
I mean, it's been like 10 months - Geez! :)
Wonder if I broke the record for the longest guidance? haha

Lots of love, peace and laughter!
Jonatan

Ilona
Hi Jonatan,

Wonderful.. I see you get the cosmic joke! Incredible, isn't it!
As for knowing, knowing is something deep, non verbal, you just know. Verbal expression is a story that mind creates to describe what is known. Story is not reality. Reality is that which sees the story arising, which knows of what is going on. And if you hear the voice of intuition more now then before, it shows that you are listening to this inner knowing. You found the internal GPS :) if thought gives excitement, joy, curious feeling, it's a yes, that is the way to follow! If not, then it's just a thought arising to be noticed. If that makes sense.

You haven't beaten the record, I had longer conversations then this. And it does not matter how long or short. It matters that you see now and know where to look to see this again and again. There will be many different situations and conditions that will require looking, so don't stop with that. All that is in the shadows will come up to be seen and released. But as you know now, you are not the driver of this ride, you are in for the ride and it will take you to places. If it's not enjoyable, then there are still beliefs attached and expectations at play. So more to explore!

And here are the questions for you. ....

Jonatan

Hey Ilona and thanks for answer on knowing!
Yeah, it makes perfect sense, not so much the words of course, but well, knowing of knowing.. Been quite aware of it the last 2 years especially, but now it's just clearer and "understood" better.. Thanks for that! :)

And yeah, exploring for sure - so much fun!

As for the answers:

1) No, never was any entity of any form or shape.. Nothing but an unquestioned assumption.. Not much to say on that behalf, cus there's nothing there! The I thought makes it feel like there's "someone" there, but it disappears when looked at.

2) The illusion of a separate self started with language as little.. We were told: "This is you, this is me", and repeated over and over again! Never seemed any reason to question this, cus everyone lived believing the same illusion, as in it was never questioned, but seemed like a natural fact of life! "You are this, you are that, you have to become something, be someone etc etc.. We've been put in school from a young age to improve, to learn, to become better at things and develop skills to have a great life, and everything pointed to this assumption of a separate self that needed improvement, that could improve and learn, become better and actually control things!
A belief of a separate "I" is created, just due to language and not questioning this small assumption!

3) It's such a relief to see, such a joke to see the simplicity of something that has been searched and pondered for years, read about etc etc, and all it comes down to is a simple honest look.. It's been a long dialogue, so many things has happened in general, but the main difference is the lightness to everything.. The emptiness of self, the seeing of there not being anyone in the receiving end of feelings and thoughts, but just the experience of this.. Even work the last few days has been long, there's been an effortlessness to it all, no fighting, just allowance of whatever comes.. Sure things still "stick" from time to time, but things are still settling in and old beliefs, habits and so on is seen in this new light and released..

4) After having had this dialogue going for 10 months I suddenly read about the simplicity of seeing no self, and this guy reacted strongly concerning how simple and almost ridiculous it was.. "I" took another look, and felt a burning to look for the truth, the simplicity of it, no matter what illusions would fall.. "I" looked and saw the emptiness that has been clear for a while, and then saw the expectation of wanting more, and realized how this tiny expectation has been "in the way".. Suddenly this emptiness was not just emptiness, but emptiness of self, which made all the difference in that second!

5) Decisions and intentions happen effortlessly.. Body moves and mind comments on what's going on.. "I" cannot control anything, the only "I" that exists, exists in thoughts and is just a well repeated word.. Things happen by themselves.. The mind makes it look like there's a decision, like there's anyone to take a decision, but it's only due to the confusion in the belief of an "I".. In reality body moves NOW and things happen according to that, which mind is commentating.. There's nothing "I" can do at all.. Even still there might be times when it feels like I need to make a decision, but it's just the mind trying to hold on to the story of "I".. When this is noticed, it's seen again that there's nobody there, just a trick of the mind.. I see this might take a while before the mind let's fully go, but already it has loosened it's grip a lot..

6) I'd love to learn how to guide, cus passing this on would be an amazing gift!

Also, not quite sure why, but it's still does not seem clear that everything is connected, as in looking around and everything is "me", but perhaps it's just cus there are some more beliefs and/or assumptions that needs to fall..

Excited to hear from you! :)

Very best wishes,
Jonatan

Ilona
Hi Jonatan!

Thank you so much for answers and welcome home! I'm delighted for you!
Yes the simplicity and obviousness is staggering, it's always been here in front of the face. I'm so glad you kept going, kept looking and so the line was crossed. I'm so happy that seeking has ended. Now exploration begins and there is so much more to see, this is a start of awakening journey. So nice that you going away to Italy at this time! It will be wonderful.

I usually make a blogpost of these conversations and invite people to join LU on Facebook. Would it be ok for you to share some bits of our long journey? I can use your name or any name you like. But these conversations are often helpful for someone else, that may be stuck at the same point.

Hope to hear form you soon!
Enjoy time away

Much Love

Jonatan
Hey Ilona

It's still somehow staggering the simple but powerful impact of this honest look.. And thank you, the end of seeking is truly wonderful! I'm in Assisi with my family right now, also called City of Peace, quite convenient wouldn't you say? ;)

It's fascinating to be in a place with so much religion and spirituality, cus these things go way back in my family and since I was little.. Seeing these things in this bright new perspective is truly a daily revelation! To see all these seekers from all over the world, monks and nuns and my family without any need to seek.. Being in peace in religious places where there's been so many dramas and confrontations growing up.. Feeling the people and the atmosphere as it is without judgement is quite exceptional right now.. And the simplicity of letting things and people be and do as the feel like, without any want or need for change is such a relieve..

I'll give you and update later on in my clearing fase, cus it's been a long journey with you, and would love to share what happens next with you!

And of course you can use anything you want from our conversation, and my name as well! Would be great to join the LU community for sure - would be very helpful I'm sure!
When things are settled a little more I'll definently guide - Would be SO much fun! :)

Ilona - Thank you thank you thank you! Thank you for your patience, kindness and nonetheless your direct pointing! I'm so ever grateful and words doesn't even come close to expressing this! Can any gift be greater, than the simplicity of NOW? Than seeing the play of Life? Of just experiencing all of This, for what it is, without any interference or belief or need to put anything in a box?

From the bottom of my heart - Thank you Ilona!
Bless you and keep in touch,
Jonatan

I Thought It Would Be a Castaneda Style Earth-Shaking Event

Ilona:

Hi Ghazni,

Tell me a bit about your journey so far and what is it you are looking for. What should be different? What is that you hope will happen.

Just write fully and honestly.

For the time of conversation I recommend to stop reading any materials, watching videos and so on, and meditation is fine, but no more listening to what others say, I need you to focus on your own experience and answer only from what feels true to you.

Kind regards.

Ghazni

Mar 1

Thank you for accepting my request. As is common since youth i had a great desire to change myself as well as the world as per my heart's wishes.  Around fifteen years ago I realized that there were no chances of any changes whatsoever in my personal or social life. I felt defeated and i accepted the defeat superficially. Deep down, however, i remained the same. i read a long line of writers, gurus and Sufis to find a key. I also practised

a number of meditations which are useful, but have no decisive impact to break the old me. Now as ever I am looking for something that can lead me to a state of mind which is clean from what you call a voice in the head. I hope I convey something. can you help me in my desire to stop thinking and accept what is from the depth of my heart.  
thank you.

Ilona

Mar 1

Thank you for answer.

I am not surprised that you cannot find the way to stop thinking. It is not the goal. It is not about state of mind free from voice in the head. Not even close.

It's about seeing what is as it is, that includes everything:  voice in the head, stories, feelings, intense feelings, and even resistance. So this expectation to stop thinking is completely unrealistic and useless. What you are looking for is peace and acceptance of voice in the head. Not getting rid of it. It same like getting rid of your own head.

Now tell me, what is wrong with thinking? What if thinking is actually ok? Are certain thoughts a problem? Which ones?

Beside, this is not about state at all.  It's not about many things, you can read this to get better idea what this process is about.

http://liberationunleashed.com/LU_FAQ.html

Sending love.

Ghazni

Mar 1

Thank you very much for the pain you are taking guiding me. after reading the FAQs I feel that the main  culprit in the drama seems to be the very self that is engaged in seeking enlightenment. the same self is feeling incomplete and the same self is trying to attain completion through different means (religion, education, culture). I have tried to look at the self. I can feel it as an entity, not as an illusion.

with regards.

Ilona

Mar 2

Yes, you notice very well- there is a drama about self being engaged in seeking and feeling incomplete.

It feels like an entity, but where IS this entity? Can you pin point it's location? When and where is it seen and experienced? Or is it the experiencer? Or it's all a story ABOUT self? Can this self be touched, seen, heard, smelled, tasted? Or is it a thought, sensation, feeling? Find it and describe what is this word self, points to in actuality. Look in experience that is happening now. This is where you look for it.

Sending love.

Ghazni

Mar 2

The self being a psychological entity cannot be pinpointed on any location in the body, but its impact can be noticed throughout the body. Breaking news on TV brings alertness to the entire body. A depressive news brings depression to the entire body. Alertness and depression are both psychological matters primarily. These cannot be pinpointed on any physical location. This being so I will never catch the self .but it does not mean that it is illusory. do I make sense or am indulging in verbosity. Perhaps my inability to understand this point has delayed my progress on the path. Plz tell how to close in on the matter.

Thank you.

Ilona

Mar 2

Ok, let's close in. Watch what arises in the body and thoughts when you let this thought in:

There is no self at all in reality, none as in ZERO. No I, that is managing, controlling, experiencing life, no one pulling the strings, no doer, no thinker, no separate entity.

All there is is life flowing freely as one unified movement. All is just happening. No one is making life to happen same way as no one is making it rain. ALL is life. There is nothing separate and nothing that needs to be fixed.

Write where most resistance is felt.

What is most difficult to accept?

Sending love.

Ghazni

Mar 2

The statement has absolutely no appeal to me. it seems too simple. I still believe that there is a natural system of cause and effect which makes rain. I once read in osho that if I remember the idea that things happen on their own for 24hours, I would accept the statement as true. I tried to do it. but nothing happened. What is to be done In this situation. please.

Ilona

Mar 2

The statement has absolutely no appeal to me.it seems too simple.

This is subtle resistance,  it's too simple. What if it's just how it is? Does it need to be complicated? What would be lost if it really is this simple. This just is.   By this I mean what is here now.

I still believe that there is a natural system of cause and effect which makes rain.

Everything influences everything else. Stimulus - reactions arise spontaneously, in the moment. Is there something behind experience now making this happen? Or sitting, reading, body movements, sounds, colours smells all are simply here without the orchestrator?

I once read in osho that if I remember the idea that things happen on their own for 24hours , I would accept the statement as true. I tried to do it .but nothing happened. What is to be done In this situation .please.

Not surprised, new beliefs don't last long. This is about looking, not remembering some mantra.

In this moment now, what is that you are making happen?

Ghazni

Mar 2

In this moment now I' am making happen an email to you. the I' in me has made all the effort to access you. the I' In me is trying to get something fruitful out of this dialogue. but you say that this i'does not exist. it is illusory. things happen on their own without any doer. how will I convince my reason to see this apparent over-simplification as the truth. please respond.

Ilona

Mar 3

This is not about understanding, it's about looking at what is already obvious and recognizing what is. We are not trying to convince you of anything, but inviting you to take a look for yourself. What is true?

Is there I right now that is reading these words, or reading is just happening, simply, effortlessly? Can you stop seeing letters and meaning now? Eyes are open, words are seen, meaning received, which part of it are you doing at will?

Looking and thinking/ reasoning is not the same.

So LOOK, what is true in experience, right now? Look as if you do not know anything. Can a doer be found?

It is up to you to take a look. That means put aside all that you expect to see, all that you want to see, what you think, and just take a look.

There is no you- doer.

There is just looking, sitting, reading, thinking, breathing, hearing, etc... Happening.

Ghazni

Mar 3

Thank you,  ilona. I feel helpless. i cannot see anything other than I. I seems to be the motivating factor behind everything, good ,bad, right, wrong, lovely, ugly etc. I do not know what to do.

highest regards.

Ilona

What do you mean that you can not see anything but I? What is I in your opinion? Describe it.

Ghazni

I means myself. it is my interests. My distinctions. my pride. my goodness. My badness. happiness. frustration. everything. it constitutes the deepest foundation of my thinking and activities. however something in me says that humans can and should go beyond it. hence this struggle for enlightenment.

Ilona

Mar 5

Can you find that which claim all this to be MINE?

What is that owns life?

Or it's just a thought?

Don't answer too quickly, have a good look, what is that makes all this mine? What is this owner and where? 

Ghazni

Mar 5

Thank you Ilona for the continuous drilling in to the matter. It seems difficult to locate that which claims all this to be Mine. There seems to be nothing that owns life. The claims of Me, Mine and I seem to be just thoughts. Now a question. What if I accept thoughts as thoughts not as realities. Would it be closer to truth. Please feel free to use the Zen stick if necessary.

with regards.

Ilona

Mar 6

Try this.

Close your eyes and hold an imaginary melon.

Create in the mind and see it as vividly as you can, feel the texture, size, temperature, all..

See it as real.

Then open your eyes.

What happened to the melon?

Can you see the absence of melon?

Was there ever one?

Same with this self thingy. It's imagined, as real, but it's not. It's just nothing there. Have a look.

No owner. It seems that there is.

It's seems to be more then thoughts.

Thoughts seem to be realities. Just like that melon, imagined world. Look at what is here now. This is it. perceiving exists.  Where is the owner of THIS. ?

Right now, this moment, with or without thoughts.

Write what comes up.

Ghazni

Mar 7

Hi Ilona.

And now I came out of imagination. The melon has disappeared. as you have pointed out the melon did not exist in reality. You are right in saying that the self thingy is also a thought. but it seems more than a thought.

The crucial point is that the thought of self, though as unreal as the thought of water melon, cannot be dropped so easily. this is the problem. how to drop the idea of self as I have dropped the idea of  melon?

however I see a difference between the two ideas. the idea of melon was consciously created by me while the  idea of self comes automatically.

I see the reality of the moment. But the moment is heavily dominated by the routine worries and frustrations.

I would like to mention that I was catapulted into the world of meditation by the feelings of extreme frustrations. I thought that meditation or spirituality will provide me an escape route which has not happened so far. after reading your FAQs  i have become further hopeless. I feel no exit situation .

Regards.

Ilona

Mar 9

And now I came out of imagination. The melon has disappeared.as you have pointed out the melon did not exist in reality. You are right in saying that the self thingy is also a thought.

but it seems more than a thought.

Yes, it seems more then thought, but is it? Is I something that can be experienced trough senses? Or it's all made of thoughts about thoughts about thoughts?

The crucial point is that the thought of self, though as unreal as the thought of water melon, cannot be dropped so easily.

Though is just that, thought, a unit, a carrier of meaning, thought is happening. Image of melon that mind created is not reality. It's an image in the mind, it is experienced, sensed, felt, but it's not real. This is the crucial thing to see.

What exists, what is, is this that is here happening right now. The rest is imagined. Look around. This is. Sensations are happening. Seeing, hearing, smelling, feeling, thinking, touching, tasting, this is life happening.

this is the problem. how to drop the idea of self as I have dropped the idea of  melon?

You recognised that it was imagined.

however I see a difference between the two ideas. the idea of melon was consciously created by me

Not by you. You is imagined.

while the the idea of self comes automatically.

Yes, automatically. Mind has created an image of 'me' ghazni. It's imagined.  Have a look for yourself. Is it true or false?

I see the reality of the moment . But the moment is heavily dominated by the routine worries and frustrations.

All worries are images too.

I feel no exit situation .

That's where you start looking at what is true..

Sending love.

Ghazni

Mar 10

Thank you for continuing the lively conversation. I am less stressed today. resistance to what you say is also less. at first reading I did not quite  understand the things. after reading it fourth or more times it became clear. I am inclined to accept your position that the self is just a thought having no real existence. does this acceptance mean anything? will it be helpful in the process?

Sorry I lack stamina to complete the answer.

Will continue tomorrow.

Thank you.

Ilona

Mar 11

Nice to hear that resistance is melting. But we are not talking here about accepting this as a new belief, you have to test it. So look, is there a self?

What would be lost if that was true?

What would need to be different if that is the case already?

Just look for yourself, plain and simple. It's not hidden

Sending love.

Ghazni

Mar 12

Hi Ilona,

thank God that resistance is melting. I m tired of it. Now your question, look is there a self? I am looking. Can't see anything like self in the physical sense but it seems to be there as a forceful mental habit. what will be lost if it were true ?Nothing will be lost rather much will be gained.

Ur next question. What would need to be different if that is the case already? If it it is already the case then there should be a lot of relaxation. Regards

Ghazni

Mar 15

Hi ilona. I hope you are all right. I miss your message. please say something.am I too far away from the goal? regards.

Ilona

Mar 15

Hi

Sorry for delay. Here is my reply, below.

What would be gained? What benefits do you expect?

If it it is already the case then there should be a lot of relaxation. 

Well. If it's already the case, then all is as should be. Including relaxation and tension. Relaxation happens. Tension happens. Nothing is permanent. Like breathing in breathing out. It's a process.

You think life is about relaxation? I say life is about living and it includes everything. Freedom is not from emotions, that are unwanted, freedom is to feel all as it is, without naming it wanted or unwanted. Freedom to experience all that is coming up without judgment.

Is mental habit something that you do, you manage, or it's happening on it's own, by itself?

Sending love.

Ghazni

Mar 15

Hi ilona. thank you.your question, what would be gained? what benefits do you expect? if I see that I is an illusion, that it does not exist, the whole egoic structure will either fall down completely or at least it will become weak. the breakdown or the weakening of the ego will clear my vision. I think that I is the main psychological barrier preventing me from understanding and walking the path of truth. the seeing of the illusion will make my journey easy.

Your other question, is mental habit something that you do, you manage, or it is happening on its own, by itself? it is independent. it happens on itself. it manages me. if I try to manage it on occasions, it puts up a very tough fight and usually wins.

regards.

Ilona

Mar 16

What is this ego that needs to weaken and break down? How is ego experienced? Where is it? What happens if word ego is replaced with word character? Does character (including all patterns of behavior, likes, dislikes, etc) need to weaken and collapse?

Is ego something that clouds vision? How? Look around now, is there ego in between seen and the seer, is vision clouded by thoughts?

How about this I that tries to manage habits, is that not another habit happening by itself?

Write what feels true :)

Sending love.

Ghazni

Mar 17

Hi ilona

I am feeling confused. I fear I am repeating myself. perhaps the 'ego' that needs to weaken or breakdown, the 'mental habits' the 'self' the 'I' the 'psychological barrier 'the 'character' seem to be the same thing.

I experience ego mainly in the form of frustration over my inability to control the things around me. I feel that if the ego is not there, the frustration is not there.

where is it(ego)?

it is in the mind.

What happens if the word ego is replaced by the word character?

Nothing significant is expected to happen by the change of words.

Does character (including all patterns of behavior, likes, dislikes etc.) needs to weaken or collapse?

I do not know how I should answer this query. ideally I should have the ability to reform the negative aspects of character.

I believe ego does cloud vision. I think if there is no ego, the gate will be seen immediately.

I am not exact but there is definitely something between the seen and the seer. otherwise if there are no clouds, than why this confusion and delay in seeing the illusion of self which you say is something very simple to see.

The I that tries to manage the habits is definitely another habit which happens on its own.

Sorry I could not follow the writing protocols Of LU because of lack of knowledge in IT.

Regards.

Ilona

Mar 17

I experience ego mainly in the form of frustration over my inability to control the things around me.

You believe that you can control things around you, but is it true? Can you make life go your way? Are you the manager of what is happening? What evidence is there?

 Where is it(ego)?

it is in the mind.

Where is mind? What does word mind point to?

Is it the thinker or the stream of thoughts? Are thoughts coming in one after another one by one or in bunches?

I do not know how I should answer this query. ideally I should have the ability to reform the negative aspects of character.

This made me smile. Ideally I should have... :) this is a nice expectation, but it's just that- an expectation.  This is an assumption that you are the puppet master of the character. But there is only a story about a character. No actor playing the role.

It's like if batman was worried about his character. Same stuff. It's all part of story.

I believe ego does cloud vision.

No it does not. Ego does not exist. Vision is not clouded.  Look around. Shapes and colours are here, always clear. Is seeing obstructed by ego right now?

What clouds experience is focusing on thinking and believing thoughts.

Look here now, right this moment, is vision clouded? Look around, this is it.  This is all there is to SEE.

What is here?

This IS. The story in the head is always about what ISN'T.

I think if there is no ego, the gate will be seen immediately.

There isn't.  But it can be believed that it is real.

Like Santa.

Kid believes till he realizes that it's a fantasy.

I am not exact but there is definitely something between the seen and the seer.

What is it?

otherwise if there are no clouds, than why this confusion and delay in seeing the illusion of self which you say is something very simple to see.

What's in the way? Expectations. Thoughts about how this should be. Beliefs that need to be looked at. Like now, you believe that there is a gap, because it seems so. But have a look, is there?

The I that tries to manage the habits is definitely another habit which happens on its own.

Ha. That is true.

Sorry I could not follow the writing protocols Of LU because of lack of knowledge in IT.

There are no protocols, it's just me a you talking.  

Much love.

Ghazni

Mar 18

I am grateful for your elaborate answer. to close in on the subject, I would like to respond to only a few points raised in your email. this will help me focus.

You agreed that ego, mental habit, the self, the I, the psychological barrier, character are the same thing and that it is imagined. Now can we do something to break the hold of this imagined thing on my behavior.

Your second point is that I believe that I can control things happening around me.  this belief is untrue and therefore i do not insist on it. but I can not totally relinquish this belief. the reason is that if I totally relinquish control, things may go topsy turvy. to be specific, for example, if do not control my monthly budget, my children will spend my monthly pension in a single day and then wait for the help of god for the rest of the month. Now how to reconcile this everyday problem with your fundamental principle that there is no doer. regards.

Ilona

Mar 19

You look in your experience right here right now, what is actually happening.  Just look. Without imagining what isn't, what IS? What is actually here?

Thing is, there never was a self- no separate entity at all as in zero- that ever was in charge of anything. So nothing changes, just a belief drops. Like Santa belief. A kid believes that Santa is a magical creature till he recognizes the truth of it, there never was a Santa. Same stuff. So life goes on as it does, things get done, budget is managed, all flows freely. The apparent control is there, but, is there a controller? Are you the controller? How do you know that? What is true in experience right now?

Are you controlling reading these words? Or reading is effortlessly happening? How about seeing, are you in charge of what is seen? Are you managing which sounds are heard? Which sensations arise, what thoughts come up? Are you in charge of what feelings are felt?

Now how to reconcile this everyday problem with your fundamental principle that there is no doer.

There is no doer, it's the language that creates one.

Here is an article for you. http://markedeternal.blogspot.co.uk/2012/01/trick-of-language.html

Examine for a day, how language creates a subject doing action. Is it true in experience?

Sending love.

Ghazni

Mar 20

Hi ilona

I am reading and re-reading your email and your article titled 'tricks of the language'. I am trying to digest these contents. I agree with many of your points up to 50%. your Santa example is very clear. when I was too small I asked my mother how did I come to this life. she told me she picked me from the nearby stream. I believed in her story for a long time until one day the matter was cleared  by undeniable evidence and it was  cleared for ever. my conversation with you shows that self ,I or me etc is a similar story.

you and the countless other awakened people are absolutely clear about the falseness of the self .I trust you people and hope strongly that one day I will be amongst you. l do not want to ask anything in today's message. it is meant only to register my presence. regards.

Ghazni

Mar 21

Hi Ilona

In your prevoius message you asked me to "look in your experience right here right now, what is actually happening. just look. without imagining what is not, what IS?

What is actually here?"

looking under this formula there is no self, me ,I etc. instead there is a situation like a scene in a movie. there is a room. one living body labelled ghazni  is lying on a couch with a mobile in its(body's) hands. a finger moves and certain words are being typed. there is a feeling of irritation and doubt about what is being done. is it something meaningful or useless rambling. Certain sounds are being heard. Certain thoughts are being thought. now this is this. the scene has been described.

can something come out of this?

Highest regards.

Ilona

Mar 21

Yes, this is exactly where to look- here now. And yes, you see, this is here and it includes sensations + labelling what is going on.

Here is an exercise for you. Do it here or on a paper, doesn't matter. Notice, how labels change the flavor of experienced. Are descriptions affecting what is happening? In what way?

Is I label or the doer?

Write what you notice

Sending love.

Ghazni

Mar 22

Hi ilona

I am not sure I understand the  exercise. however I reply in order to keep the ball rolling. your instruction to "notice, how labels change the flavor of the experienced. "makes me a little bored' irritated and frustrated at the fact that I do not understand how labels change the flavor of the experienced. the flavor of green tea will remain the same no matter whether it is labelled honey, fish or syrup.

"Are descriptions affecting what is happening. "now descriptions are stories, points of view, interpretations about what is happening. happenings seem to be objective and independent of will while descriptions are subjective.

"Is I label or the doer"?. again label is a label. it cannot be doer.at best label is only a name, a pointer to the doer not the doer itself. perhaps l understand the problem of I intellectually but to integrate it to my life existentially remains a challenge.

Regards.

Ilona

Mar 22

Did you do the exercise?

Can you do it here, in email? Perhaps you haven't done it right.

Ghazni

Mar 22

Hi ilona

No. I have not done the exercise because I do not know how to do it either on paper or on email. I only did something from the mind.

Is this inability to understand and do the exercise a genuine inability or a sort of unconscious resistance?

Your next question: "so there is a doer. what is this doer"?

Perhaps the body mind conglomerate is the doer.

Regards.

Ilona

Mar 23

The instructions are pretty simple, so just do it. Write for ten minutes in a different way, what is not to understand here? Play with it.

What have you got to lose if you do this exercise? What is behind this resistance? Fear?

Your next question: "so there is a doer. what is this doer"?

Perhaps....

Stop right here. Perhaps= I think. It shows that you are answering from the head, when you need to look in direct experience and see what is actually happening.

Right here right now, is there something that is doing reading these words or it's simply happening? Is there a gap between you and reading?

Ghazni

Mar 24

Sorry to bother you. if you can kindly rehash/re-phrase the exercise.

"What have you got to lose if you do the exercise? what is behind  this resistance? fear?"

As a matter of fact I have nothing to lose but my ignorence. there is no fear as far as I can understand. rather i am quite ready and enthusiastic to see the illusion.

"Right here, right  now ,is there something doing reading these words or it is simply happening? Is there a gap between you and reading?" eyes see the words, meanings are understood directly and there is no gap between me and reading. but the fact remains that there is something within which is giving great time and attention to the issue at hand.

However

There is an irritation in my body and mind as to why I cannot see the the truth, which according to the people in LU is extremely simple.

Regards.

Ilona

Mar 24

It is simple, you just need to face it. There is no self as in zero. None whatsoever. No manager, no center of command, no controller, no manipulator, no doer, no thinker, no entity at all.

Face it.

What comes up?

Ghazni

Mar 26

Hi ilona

Your instruction ;"it is very simple, you just need to face it. there is no self as in zero--------- no entity at all.

Face it."

No entity, yes. an idea only. I am facing it. but I do not know when I will be able to see it through. resistance has changed its style. I could not sleep because of it. there was pain in the legs which was generated by the self anxious about its uncertain future .please say something how to face it once and for all.

Regards.

Ilona

Mar 26

No entity, yes. an idea only.

Yes. How does it feel to see this?

I am facing it. but I do not know when I will be able to see it through.

What is the I that needs to see through? Another idea?

What is here without ideas? What is underneath all thinking? Does thinking make this happen or it's all happening with and without thinking? I mean sensations, sounds, view, smells, taste, touch sensations?

What is not on automatic? What is it that you actually are in control of? In actuality, not in ideas.

At this time a journey into nature would be very helpful. Just spend some time in a park or whatever you find and see how everything moves and wiggles. Watch this movement of totality and notice, how everything is included in this- wind, clouds, trees, flowers, animals, birds, this body, breathing, sensing, thinking, feeling.... It's all one movement of what IS. Isness, being, is it separate from the whole? Can you find a line where me is here and world is there? Is there a boundary in experience?

Watch how spring is happening. Circumstances, situation is right, so all this is manifesting. It rains when conditions are met. Does a cloud have a choice, to rain or not to rain? Does a bird have a choice to sing or not? Or it's all one flawless movement of IS?

Have a good look in nature, where is doer? Is there an orchestrator, a puppet master that moves it all?

Is there a driver of life? Or it's all nice stories? Are stories driving life or it's what the movement manifests as?

Write a full report from your nature trip. If no park around, having a look through an open window will do. Feel the wind and have fun :)

Much love.

Ghazni

Mar 28

Hi Ilona

Your question; "how does it feel to see this?"

It feels as if something new is there to be explored.

It feels as if the self may really be an illusion if examined closely.  as a result the process of examination has deepened.

"What is the I that needs to see through? Another idea?"

The same idea. the same self/I which is under examination.

"What is here without ideas? what is underneath all thinking? Does thinking make this happen? Or it is all happening with and without thinking?I mean sensations,sounds, view,smells,touch,taste sensations?"

Here is my  body lying peacefully In bed. here is silence underneath all thinking. everything is happening without thinking and despite thinking. there are different types of sensations and sounds etc occurring without any effort on my part.

"What is not on automatic? What is it that you are actually in control of? In actuality not in ideas?"

Everything is automatic. I am in control of nothing. I am only a passive observer.

As for your instruction of journey into nature. I am not good at sitting in a park or anywhere without doing anything or talking. I do go for a walk almost everyday but it is usually absent-mindedly. however I will report to you on this issue latter.

Thanks.

Ilona

Mar 29

Hi Ghazni.

I see that process is going well. :)

You say:

Everything is automatic .I am in control of nothing. I am only a passive observer.

No, you are not observer. There is no observer. There is no a witness. All there is is observing and witnessing happening, same way as there is no breather, you are not breather, it's happening by itself. When attention goes on observing, it appears that you are doing that, but what is true in actuality?

There is no passive or active observer, but a process. Have a look, right now, is there a gap between you and what is being seen?

I'm looking forward to your report form nature. And it's good to break routine sometimes. Of course, you can do exercise while moving, but try what I suggested. Sit still and watch how all moves.

:)

Sending love.

Ghazni

Mar 30

Hi Ilona

I am happy over your remarks that the process is going well. Be it so. thank you.

However It is difficult for me to digest the idea that there is no observer either active or passive because under this formula there would be killing but no killer, suiciding but no suicider and so on. in such a situation it would be difficult to fix responsibility for any action because there is no actor. this is a kind of  fatalism.

As regarding nature work I have started going to the nearby hills. I will report to you as soon as i am able to say something meaningful.

Please excuse me for skipping those of your questions about which I am not clear.

Regards.

Ghazni

Apr 2

Hi Ilona

hope you are alright. not heard from you. I am paying short visits to the hills. I sit silently and watch things for an hour or so. things are interesting. in the beginning it is difficult to sit but latter it becomes difficult to end the sitting. I would  not mind longer sittings, if you advise so, but at the moment it is not feasible because of a particular medical condition.

I notice many things happening. clouds. raining. wind. birds. at one level everything seems automatic. on another level everything is the result of a cause. in inanimate nature physical causes produce results. in living nature individual motives are at the back of things. it may be hunger, survival, seeking pleasure, avoiding pain etc.

What I need to know is whether separate individual living/non-living beings exist or are they also figments of Imagination like the desperate self.

Regards.

Ilona

Apr 2

I'm very well, thank you, just was a bit caught up in busy last few days..

on another level everything is the result of a cause.

All is interdependent. Nothing exists or acts on it's own.

You see that, good to notice.

All is a cause and effect of all. Look, is this body part of it? Part of life happening? Is this

Breathing something you do or it's just happening like everything else in nature?

Can anything be or act outside of flow of life?

in inanimate nature physical causes produce results.in living nature individual motives are at the back of things.

Let's look at individual motives, are they yours or it's life happening?

it may be hunger, survival, seeking pleasure, avoiding pain etc.

Are you the one that decides when this organism is hungry, if it's alive or not, if it's seeking one and avoiding another?

Or it's just like nature- movement of life, natural flow of events, one after another. Including thoughts about events and feelings about those thoughts. Sensing, feeling and story telling.

What I need to know is whether separate individual living/non-living beings exist or are they also figments of Imagination like the desperate self.

Being is a verb.

Sending love.

Ghazni

Apr 3

Hi Ilona,                                                                       

l feel that all the assertions made in your email  are true. however your answer to question about the existence or non-existence of seperate things does not satisfy me. you simply say that being  is verb. being also mean existence and existent things.

Another thing which is a source of confusion to me is that if the principle of no doer is accepted, there would be no responsibility. since there is only killing without a killer so there can not be any criminal. I remember the rise of the same confusion when J.krishnamurti and osho and others denied the existence of good and evil.

Kindly do throw some light on the issue.

Highest regards.

Ilona

What exists is a good question. In which way everything exist? Does anything exist not dependently on something else? Do imagined characters exist?

Can you define in your own words what is real?

Another thing which is a source of confusion to me is that if the principle of no doer is accepted there would be no responsibility.

What are you responsible for? What is your responsibility right now?

We are not talking here about accepting an idea. We are looking at what is actually going in in experience. When you feel responsible, have a look, what is there exactly. What makes it so. How does it work?

What makes one thing good and another thing bad, evil? What is that judges? Is this judge always right?

Sorry, I won't give answers for you, these are your questions to ask, not mine. You alone have to answer them for yourself. So I give you a few more questions that may be helpful to ask.

Write what feels true to you.

Much love.

Ghazni 

Apr 6

hi ilona

Thank you for the great trouble you are taking in guiding me and many others on this path of truth.

"In which way everything exist? Does anything exist not dependently on some thing else?"

it is clear everything happens interdependently. the world exists as an infinite web of cause and effect.

"Do Imagined characters exist?"

Imagined characters do not exist, these are things of fiction especially of old time religion and literature.

"Can  you define in your own words what is real?"

To me real means something that can be verified by the five sense organs of seeing, tasting, smelling, touching and hearing. real is also that which can be proved through the scientific method.

"What are you responsible for?what is your responsibility right now"?

My responsibility right now is to get as much focussed as possible on the illusion of self.

"We are not talking here about  accepting an idea.we are looking at what is actually taking place in experience.when you feel responsible have a look,what is there exactly.

What makes it so. how does it really work?"

It works as a process. mutual actions and reactions. inherent energy and movement in each and everything.

"What makes one thing good and another thing bad,evil.?what is that judges? Is this judge always right"?

Convention,religion,morality etc make things good or bad. the collective and the individual mind judges. the judge is seldom right, mostly dysfunctional.

Your questions are like energy drinks. they have brought me to the verge. one powerful kick and i will be in the deep blind well of illusion.

Regards.

Ghazni

Apr 9

Hi ilona

I am waiting. Is this coldness part of the zen stick. it seems I am ready to take the step.

Where is the gate please?

Respects.

Ilona 

Apr 9

Is there a gate to cross?

Is there an I-entity that needs to cross it?

What do you find in experience?

:)

Ghazni

Apr 9

I have looked Inside and outside my body. i could not find any I-entity or self-entity. what was it than? Just a misconception ruling my entire life?

And what you mean. There is no gate. then what about the narrow gate mentioned in the scriptures. and what about your promise that a guide takes ones hand and get the seeker pass through. was all that metaphor/figures of speech? :)

Ilona

Apr 9

I have looked Inside and outside my body. i could not find any I-entity or self-entity.what was it than? Just a misconception ruling my entire life?

Yes, an unquestioned assumption, that's all. When questioned it becomes clear that it's just a belief.

And what you mean. There is no gate.

Seeing that there is no gate is realisation that changes perception, the way that life is seen is different.

then what about the narrow gate mentioned in the scriptures. and what about your promise that a guide takes ones hand and get the seeker pass through.was all that metaphor/figures of speech? :)

It's all about seeing what is actually happening, without assumptions of what This should be.

How does it feel, can you say that Gateless gate was crossed?

Ghazni 

Apr 9

Hi ilona,  
"How does it feel, can you say that gateless gate was crossed"?

It feels as when one throws a long-carried burden from his shoulders. I felt a clear relief. relief not in the sense that any problem was solved but in the sense that problems lost there graveness. suffering was not felt as suffering but taken as daily business. there was a wave of a light euphoria like the one we feel in moments of finding something  new.

I would like to be careful and would not say categorically that the gateless gate was crossed. what I can say safely is that something  new did happen which changed my way of looking at things.

The most significant thing is that today I do not feel that desire for enlightenment which was my greatest desire until yesterday. I am at peace with what is here and now.

However a feeling of concern does exist in my mind about the sustainability of the change.

Respects.

Ilona

Apr 11

Wow, great to hear!

The shift can be very subtle, it may look that it does not change much, but it changes everything. Give it a few days to settle..

Are there any doubts?

Much love.

Ghazni

Apr 11

Thank you for the validation of my ,,experience. I did not expect it. I can not believe it can happen so easily, so painlessly. I thought it would be a Castaneda style earth-shaking event. I had decided to see the gate at all costs. I conveyed the decision to you that i was ready to take the step and asked you whereabouts of the gate. your reply to my that message was surprisingly simple yet revealing.

Your question,as to" are there any doubts".

Yes. there is a doubt that it may be a trick of the mind. a wish fulfilment.

There is also a worry. the dropping of the suffering  is already leading me to the dropping of the struggle for enlightenment. if it happens it will make me absolutely unemployed. I am already retired from service. this shift, if it happens, will end my mental occupations as well. this scenario may lead to other problems. I am already understanding UGs concept of Calamity.:)

Great regards.

Ilona

Apr 12

Thank you for the validation of my ,,experience.I did not expect it.I can not believe it can happen so easily,so painlessly.I thought it would be a Castaneda style earth-shaking event.I had decided to see the gate at all costs.I conveyed the decision to you that i was ready to take the step and asked you whereabouts of the gate.your reply to my that message was surprisingly simple yet revealing.

Great!

Your question, as to" are there any doubts".

Yes. there is a doubt that it may be a trick of the mind.a wish fulfilment.

Keep looking in experience, is it true. What is incomplete right now? Doubt is a friend, it shows areas that are still in need of looking, embrace it. Don't take anything as another belief, keep checking what is actually happening.

There is also a worry. the dropping of the suffering  is already leading me to the dropping of the struggle for enlightenment.

Nice. Struggle is not necessary. One can live relaxed and content. :)

if it happens it will make me absolutely unemployed.

If it happens- a thought projection about future, have a look, is there future, or just now?

How is future experienced? Is there other time then this present moment?

Fear comes with thoughts about what if scenarios, it's a habit to think this way. But does mind still need to create imaginary problems so it can solve it? Is it useful, practical or waste of energy?

I am already retired from service.this shift ,if it happens,will end my mental occupations as well.this scenario may lead to other problems.I am already understanding UGs concept of Calamity.:)

Hehe. Well, there never was was a self, so how anything can be different? All that needs to be done gets done, it does not depend on thinking that you did it or thinking that there is no you to do it. Life does not end here. Unnecessary struggle starts to fall.

It's all about surrender to what is already happening. If relaxation is happening, enjoy it.

Sending love

Ghazni

Apr 13

Hi Ilona,

Your advice "keep looking in experience, is it true? what is incomplete right now? doubt is a friend that shows areas which are still in need of looking."

Nothing is incomplete right now. Everything is perfectly alright. But that is mainly because I am looking consciously. the moment I am automatic the old illusory self  returns with its usual habits. thoughts like i am losing friends day by day. i am becoming alone. who will come to my help if I am in some trouble etc. I must admit however that the span of presence has increased. I see these thoughts as soon as they appear and seeing weakens their grip.

"How is future experienced? is there other time then this present?"

I agree fully that that there is no other time then this present moment and future can be experienced only as the present. but the mind is still creating imaginary problems to create suffering and waste time.

I am consciously trying to surrender to what is happening. Let us see when it happens beyond any doubt.

Regards.

Ghazni 

Apr 16

Hi ilona,

I am waiting for your reply.should I keep waiting?

Regards.

Ilona 

Apr 16

Hi Ghazni

sorry for delay with answer and thank you for reminding of yourself.

what is not on automatic?

is looking consciously something that you do or it's too something that happens?

have a look, what exactly are problems? what do they stick to? is there an owner of problem? are there problems right now or it's all in thinking about future?

what do you find?

sending love

Ghazni

Apr 17

Hi Ilona,

Your question, " what is not on automatic?

Is looking consciously something that you do or it too is something that happens"?

when something habitual like smoking or reading a newspaper is done, it is automatic with no effort. but when something is done against the habit like resisting the smoking habit or reading something unhabitual, is difficult and requires an effort of will. we see In our daily life that some of the things are easy and are done effortlessly. but there are other things which are difficult and require wilful attention to do it. Now I am almost sure there is no I-entity or Me-entity that does the effort. But then what or who is behind the effort. is it the universal life force? universal intelligence? or what?

" have a look what exactly are problems? what do they stick to? Is there an owner of problem? Are there problems right now or it is all in thinking about the future?

What do you find"?

While looking at experience and facts of life, I find that problems are mental habits. But these habits are so strong that even a thousand Alexenders are helpless before them. but I do admit, nevertheless, that one gourdjeef or any of his type is enough for them. I attach the same value to the LU guides.

The illusory I is the only non-existent owner of the problems. circular thinking, particularly the permenant fixation of mind on future is the root of it.

Respects.

Ilona

Apr 19

Ok, yes, there is effort happening for example in physical exercise. But is it something you do or it arises naturally in given situations as part of what is happening, interdependently of everything else?

What is there that effort is happening to? What is here that effort is happening as?

Try this: look up at right top point of your screen. Squint your eyes, and tense eyebrows. Look hard at the corner. Do this intensely for a minute. This requires effort, right, but what is behind it? Is effort helping to see clearer?

we see In our daily life that some of the things are easy and are done effortlessly.but there are other things which are difficult and require wilful attention to do it.Now I am almost sure there is no I-entity or Me-entity that does the effort. But then what or who is behind the effort.is it the universal life force?universal intelligence?or what?

You don't need to answer this question, just look and see what is behind it.

While looking at experience and facts of life,I find that problems are mental habits. But these habits are so strong that even a thousand Alexenders are helpless before them.

Habits form and fall. It's not that you are keeping it going, nor it's up to you if you like them or not. You don't need to change habits, just watch them. Body does it's thing, runs on the programming. Without trying to change, be aware of habitual behaviour and thinking, see how it arises and passes away. Then look, what is that habits stick to?

The illusory I is the only non-existent owner of the problems.

May I mention, non existing owner of non existing problems. A mind game. Create and imagine possible what if scenarios, forgetting it's not real. But on examination, it's always clear, problems do not exist.

It can be fun, but, is this useful? Do you need to keep thinking about future? Does it change anything if you do or not?

circular thinking, particularly the permenant fixation of mind on future is the root of it.

Find the future!

Sending love.

Ghazni

Apr 21

Hi ilona,

As for the effort during exercise,I can see there is no I in it but the natural flow of circumstances makes it possible. as recommended, I looked at the right corner of the screen with squinted eyes. the effort did not help to see clearly. rather it blurred the vision.

As advised, I do practice the watching of (mental and physical) habits.

Now your instruction to" find the future". It will never be found by anyone. It is mirage. whenever it comes, it comes as present.

By the way, ilona, i feel I have seen through the illusion of self. I also feel that i have crossed the gateless gate.

All credit goes to you. thank you so much.

Ilona

Apr 21

That is great! I'm delighted for you. Big smile !!

Here are a few more questions for you, take your time. Please write in detail, I'm looking forward to read your answers

Much love.

Ghazni 

Apr 24 

Hi Ilona,

I am  happy that the movement of life has caused me to stumble upon your website Liberationunleashed.com . I feel lucky enough to have been guided by you successfully to see through the illusion of self and to cross the gateless gate. here are answers to the questions no 1 and 2.

Question no.1

" is there a separate entity, self,me, I,at all, anywhere,in any way, shape or form?was there ever?"

There is no such separate entity as self, I, me at all, anywhere, in anyway, shape or form. there never was such an entity at all. this is an illusion created by language and social conditioning. grammar has been given abnormal importance which resulted in turning simple linguistic tools like i and me in to an entity .

 no.2.

"Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is,when it starts and how it works from your own experience.Describe it fully as you see it now."

The thought that the human body or organism is controlled by a special entity called the self, I or me is an illusion. it starts in the early childhood when a baby is given a name and is trained by the society as a distinct individual. during the social training however, some of the concepts like the name of the person or the pronoun I or me is over-emphsized. this over-emphasis leads to the emergence of the fantastic idea called self which is then generally accepted and treated as a reality in its own right.

The idea of self as a separate entity is the main cause of suffering  and conflict in the world. the emotions of jealousy, competition, national, religious, ethnic and the numerous other social divisions are mainly caused and propelled by the illusory self.

Looking at it now it seems very strange and unfortunate that i like most of  humanity despite all our claims to wisdom have not been able to see this immediate and nearest enemy. for me personally its a sigh of relief and a new beginning.

Best regards.

Question no -3

"How does it feel to see this?what is the difference from before you started this dialogue? please report from the past few days."

It feels like I have taken a definite step forward. At least I stand clear on a fundamental issue of personal psychology. There is much less fear now. There is greater courage now to surrender to the moment. I am more present now. regrets about the wastage of past opportunities, the feelings of not being good enough, the fear of poverty and many similar emotions have lost there tightness. I have become more clear and focussed mentally. there are countless references to the falseness of the self in almost every religion, philosophy and literature of the world. almost everybody tries to get rid of it but few succeed. the LU method of direct pointing seems to me the most scientific.I still wonder how I came to see the illusion of self. I was absolutely hopeless about it.

Question no-4

"What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?"

I can not say what was the last bit. what I know is that a clear conclusion suddenly landed on the mind . A sort of internal voice asked me to stop unnecessary arguments. the same voice kind of thing said that enough is enough and that I should not prolong a false belief simply because I have cherished it for so long.

Regards.

Ilona

Apr 26 

Hi Ghazni,

Thank you for clear answers! Just letting you know that I'm reading what you write. And I see that the line was crossed..

Send  the last 2 answers please :)

Much love.

Ghazni 

Apr 27

Question NO-5

"Can you talk about decision,intention,free will,choice and control?what makes things happen?how does it work? Give examples from your experience."

Decision, intention, free will, choice and control may be key words in everyday administration, business and politics. but these are useless thoughts when seen in the perspective of current experience. things happen on their own as a result of interaction amongst a number of causes and effects. things are clear about the major things like birth and death, circulation of blood, breathing etc. there automatic character cannot be doubted. But when it comes to small things like the selection of particular cloth or colour ,eating in this or that hotel, walking on this track or that track etc, doubt comes in. for example the decision to take a bath now or after three hours or even three days seems to be made by me.

There is also a religious tradition which says that even a leaf can not move without the order of God.many people believe in it.I can't believe in it but can not no reject it either.

Question NO-6

"Anything to add?"

The thoughts of incompleteness, fear of disease, death and many other negative things do visit my mind regularly. the only entertainment I offer them is constant watching. will they ever stop coming.?

Regards.

Ghazni 

Apr 27 

Thank you for the encouraging message. I have submitted the last two answers. may the truth dawn on us.

Regards.

Ilona

Apr 28 

Thank you so much for answers. You sound clear on 1-4, but number 5 tells meet, that we can look deeper. 

But when it comes to small things like the selection of particular cloth or color ,eating in this or that hotel,walking on this track or that track etc,doubt comes in.for example the decision to take a bath now or after three hours or even three days seems to be made by me.

It seems, yes. In thought story about it.

Have two nice fruit with you. Put them in front, see how decision happens in action. Catch the me, that decides. Just reach out for one fruit and take a bite. As it's happening, watch the hand, watch thoughts, see how it works. Is it possible, that body does what it does, regardless of what  thoughts say?

There is also a religious tradition which says that even a leaf can not move without the order of God.

I see what it says. Yes, I get that. Have a look:  Is there a gap between you and god? And if you replace word god with synonyms: life, reality, here now, this.. Does it make sense?

Here now, is anything giving orders for this to be happening? Or all is just happening as one movement of god?

The thoughts of incompleteness,fear of disease, death and many other negative things  do visit my mind regularly.the only entertainment I offer them is constant watching.will they ever stop coming.?

When all is welcomed, none is a problem. When negative thoughts shows up, what is it showing up to? Are you the thinker of thoughts? Are you the feeler of sensations? Is there a receiver of experience or just experience?

Sending love.

Ghazni 

May 1

Hi ilona,

Sorry for delay. I was stuck somewhere.

I did the two fruit exercise. I waited for five minutes thinking which fruit to take first. suddenly my hand reached to the fruit which was less sweet. the sweeter fruit I took latter. the decision was clearly made on the basis of experience that if I took the sweeter fruit first, the less sweet fruit will lose its attraction. your question as to" is it possible, that the body does what it does, regardless of what the thoughts say." I would respond  that it is not only possible but it is usually the case. my decision to take the less sweet fruit first  clearly came from experience which is the domain of body/mind not thoughts.

I would like to mention another experience.as a matter of decision I avoid fatty foods. but on occasions, like today, my hand just reached to the thing my body demanded despite opposition from thoughts.

" is there a gap between you and god."

there seems to be no gap. The human body/mind is an integral part of the over all movement of god.

It is all one movement. Experience does not show any internal or external doer except the over all life.

" Are you the thinker of thoughts"?

not at all. Thinking happens automatically. I am helpless about them. the same is the case with sensations. they happen on there own as a result of interplay among countless factors.

Regards

Ilona

May 2

Dear Ghazni.

Thank you for answers! Yes, I can see now that you see! :) and I'm very very happy for you. You know, this is a beginning of seeing and there is much more to explore.

How is the searching, is it still here, or search is over?

Is there anything else that we can look together or you are feeling confident, that you are good to continue on your own?

I would like to invite you to join LU community on Facebook, for continuing friendship and support, there are many people there, that went and going through the same, so it helps sometimes to share and read what happens after.

I usually put the conversations on my blog, as they are helping others, you never know who reads and what impact your journey can make for some other seekers. So if you don't mind, I would like to share our conversation too. I can change your name, if you prefer, or use an initial, it's up to you. Then I can get other guides to see if they have any questions to you too..

Have a lovely day!

Sending love.

Ghazni 

Hi Ilona,

Thank you very much. you are doing great job.

Searching has stopped. it seems to have no utility for me after seeing the gateless gate. what I am interested in now is to consolidate what I have already seen and to explore the field further.

For the time being I feel confident enough to continue on my own. but please allow me to revert to you if and when needed. doubts do come, negative episodes are still here. but a kind of alertness has also increased which immediately focusses on them and in most cases succeeds in running them out.

I appreciate your idea of  joining the LU community on Facebook.

You can put our conversation on your blog. there is no issue with name also. 

Thank you .