The Sense of Aliveness Is Not In Control of What Happens

Carol:

help with "There is no self at all in reality. No me lives my life." When I contemplate the above a sense of disbelief arises, astonishment quickly followed by doubt. That is followed by a deep, visceral fear ~ terror, really. My heart actually starts pounding and I can feel anxiety wash over me. The fear is centered in my core ~ my chest and abdomen. My stomach churns & my heart beats rapidly. It feels like I've been living a lie my whole life and am about to be found out ~ discovered to be a liar. I want to run away but there's nowhere to run to to get away from this. Now sadness wells up, tears at the thought I am not real. I have great fondness for this character named Carol and will miss her! <Sigh>. What to do, what to do?

x

Carol:
Nov 5
Good Morning Ilona!


Thank you SO MUCH for your website and all you are doing to help people to see the Truth. It's amazing! I am so happy and grateful for your and Elena's efforts.

I have been a seeker since I was a teenager - which is a long time, since I'm now 51 years young!

The search has been long and winding and taken on many forms.

10 years or so ago I discovered non duality and that is where the search has remained. I've read countless books, attended some satsangs and retreats, meditated some, and gotten absolutely no where with it all. Perhaps a tiny taste here and there, but nothing substantial or lasting. Lately the impulse to read about nonduality has waned. I'm so sick of all the books that describe it. I guess I was hoping that simply by reading I would get it!

A week ago a dear friend of mine, also a seeker and someone who I consider somewhat "ahead" of me on the path, sent me a link to your website, and told me her search was finally over. Wow! So I perused your website, bought the Kindle version of the book and read it, visited the forum, and have been investigating the reality of this "me" all week, as I go about my day. It's too easy for my mind to lead me in circles, or distract me with other concerns, so I feel I need some help. I need to dialogue with someone who will keep me on track and catch any BS the mind throws out.

I prefer to do this via email, and not publicly on the Forum. Would you be willing to help me?

Thank you!

Gratefully yours,

Carol

Ilona:
Nov 6

Hi Carol,

thank you for email

yes, i can help you with the inquiry. email is fine for me.
there is a disclaimer on the www.liberationunleashed.com home page, i need you to read it and see if you agree with all that. :)
this helps to cut through the most common expectations.

on the scale from 1 to 10, how ready are you, 1 being mildly curious, 10 burning for truth no matter what.

looking forward to your answer.
kind regards,


Carol:
Nov 7

Good Morning Ilona,

Thanks so much for your reply & offer of help! I was so excited (and a little scared) when I saw your reply in my inbox. :D

Yes, I've read the disclaimer and just re-read so it's fresh in my mind. No reason for me not to continue based on anything in it.

How ready am I to continue? I want to shout TEN, but fear makes it 10 - 2 = 8.

Looking forward to your reply!

Gratefully yours,

Ilona:
Nov 7

thanks for answer :)
ok, let's start.

first and most important part is to look at expectation.
make a full and sincere list of all that you think this awakening is about, what it will give you, what will be the benefits and what you want from it. also, what you do not want too.

it's good idea to pull out all expectation and examine them closely as they are in the way of clear seeing.


looking forward to your answer.
much love

Carol:
Nov 8
Thanks for the questions!

I guess the biggest thing I think awakening will give me is an end to suffering - mental & emotional anguish, reactivity. I imagine it will give me equanimity, nothing will upset me or bother me, I will have peace of mind. Complete acceptance of everything that happens, moment by moment, kind of like being able to sincerely say no matter what, "It's all good".

And I guess, by the above happening, I imagine life would then be amazing! Not that anything would be different but my view of it would be different. And that would make it amazing.

I'm not looking for special powers, riches, or to anything like that. Just peace of mind & contentment, which sounds kind of blissful to me. :D

And I imagine people will sense a difference about it.

That's about it.

Thanks SO MUCH for dialoguing with me!

Looking forward to your reply.

love & light to you.

Ilona:
Nov 8

Thanks for the questions!

I guess the biggest thing I think awakening will give me is an end to suffering - mental & emotional anguish, reactivity. I imagine it will give me equanimity, nothing will upset me or bother me, I will have peace of mind.

Nice thought, but it's only a magical thinking. End of suffering is not at the beginning, as seeing no self is not the end.. It may take some long time till complete ok-iness. And no state is permanent. Being ok with whatever arises is what reduces reactivity until it drops. Most likely, this will not happen with the fist step to liberation, which is seeing that there is no separation.


Complete acceptance of everything that happens, moment by moment, kind of like being able to sincerely say no matter what, "It's all good". 

All is ok, more likely. Good and bad is still judgement, ok is acceptance.


And I guess, by the above happening, I imagine life would then be amazing! Not that anything would be different but my view of it would be different. And that would make it amazing. 

Nothing would be different from now, all same, only the view. Yes.

I'm not looking for special powers, riches, or to anything like that. Just peace of mind & contentment, which sounds kind of blissful to me. :D

And I imagine people will sense a difference about it.


You are on right track.

That's about it. 

Cool. Now let's take the next step. Let this thought in, play with it, consider it seriously, watch what happens in the mind and in the body as you take it to be true.

There is no separate self at all, no I, no me in reality. There is no controller, no watcher, no manager, life happens by itself. The I is just an idea, there is nothing behind it.

Take a look, if it's true.


Write what comes up.
Much love.


Carol:
Nov 10

Hi Ilona,

Sorry for the delay in my reply. Had a bout of Meniere's disease (an inner ear disorder with symptoms of dizziness, nausea, vomiting, & fatigue) which put me out of commission for a day.

You said: Let this thought in, play with it, consider it seriously, watch what happens in the mind and in the body as you take it to be true.

There is no separate self at all, no I, no me in reality. There is no controller, no watcher, no manager, life happens by itself. The I is just an idea, there is nothing behind it. 

When I let the thought in that there is no "me" as a separate self at first I feel a sense of surprise & disbelief, like all this time I've been living a lie? Well I guess that's not right, 'cause there's no me to have lived a lie all this time, it's just been a case of believing something that's not true.

The latest brain research which shows that decisions to act are made 6-8 seconds before the conscious mind is aware of it helps make this more real.

Along with the surprise and disbelief is a sense of running out of steam, of a balloon (me) popping & deflating. All that anguish in my twenties about my messed up childhood and how it affected me, all the years of running self-improvement programs...all for naught. If I had know this then there would have been loads more time for other things!

Then the thought occurs to me: how do I know this is true? I guess the answer would be to look.

When I look through my body I can't find a me, except in my brain. That's where I seem to be, or at least that's where the sense of self, all the preferences and conditioning that make up the "me", seems to reside. And in the portion of the brain where language, thought & speech arise, specifically. Perhaps this set of preferences and conditioning isn't me, but then who am I? And if there is no "I" then what is this set of preferences and conditioning?

When I let thought in that there is no "me" and life is just happening, running on it's own, I have no control, then anxiety arises in the body and the heart beats faster. After awhile that passes and there is a sense of relaxing, of "whatever will be will be".

That's all I've got for now. Very much looking forward to your reply.

Love & hugs,


Ilona:
Nov 11


Thank you for answer carol.


You say

"When I look through my body I can't find a me, except in my brain. That's where I seem to be, or at least that's where the sense of self, all the preferences and conditioning that make up the "me", seems to reside. And in the portion of the brain where language, thought & speech arise, specifically. Perhaps this set of preferences and conditioning isn't me, but then who am I? And if there is no "I" then what is this set of preferences and conditioning? "

How do you experience the brain? Is it not just a thought that you feel the brain and the language center?


The sense of aliveness, being, is it in the brain? Can you locate it? Is there a line between here and there? Is this sense in control of what happens?
Is sense of hearing in control of what sounds are heard?

Find that sense of aliveness and observe it. Is it I? Or I is a label that is put on this sense and assumed to be the manager if the body?


Write what you see.


Much love.

Carol:
Nov 12

Hi Ilona,

Thanks for the questions.

Wow. You asked, "How do you experience the brain?" When I looked at that I realized I don't! It is just a thought I took to be real. That realization was like the flash of a light bulb going off. Wow.

The sense of aliveness seems to be centred in the heart and is most obvious in the beating of the heart and the pulsing of blood in veins. And yet...calling that the sense of aliveness doesn't seem quite right. Because something is aware of that. It doesn't seem right to call that awareness "I" and I can't find exactly where the awareness is - it seems to be everywhere an nowhere at the same time.

The sense of aliveness isn't in control of what happens, of what sounds are heard, of what thoughts appear.

Am feeling a little lost right now. What's next?

Thank you so much for the gift of these questions.

Love back...



Ilona:
Nov 13

Nice, yes, the brain is not experienced directly.

Ok, next step we look at mind as labelling machine. Notice how mind labels everything. Just look slowly around the room and see how words pop in the mind and start telling stories.

Are you in control of this process or it is going on automatic?

Read this post. http://markedeternal.blogspot.co.uk/2012/01/trick-of-language.html?m=1


What do you learn when investigate language and labelling?

Sending love.


Carol:
Nov 14

Hi Ilona,

Yes, as I look around the room the name/label for each thing automatically arises, sometimes with a story attached, i.e., plant - oh, plants need watered, they should have been watered 2 days ago...etc. I don't control the labeling/thoughts, they just arise unbidden.

Thank you for the blog post on thoughts & thinking. When I look, I see that thoughts arise effortlessly, "I" don't think them, and when I look for the "I" I can't find it...and yet, and yet, this doesn't seem to be sinking in. I don't know what else to say right now. I will keep looking at thoughts/labelling and see await your reply.

Much love and thanks.


Carol:
Nov 16

Hi Ilona,

I've continued to look at thoughts and labelling these past few days. I notice that I'm more detached from thoughts, I notice them as they arise without getting lost in them and then notice they vanish like bubbles bursting...Sometimes I thank them and then they go. I read that suggestion in one of your blog posts and have been trying it as I remember to.

so there is more ease and flow, in a subtle way. i keep looking for me and it is becoming more and more clear that i am not (if that makes sense) and what I think of as me is just a conglomeration of thoughts all stuck together. and since thoughts just arise, shine, and vanish it is clear that to maintain this identity I've thought of as me all these years requires a lot of effort, without the effort to maintain continuity the thoughts that comprise me would vanish too quickly to maintain any hold or grip. it's hard to talk about this. am i making any sense?

just wanted to check in, since i haven't heard from you.


Carol:
Nov 17


Ilona,

I think our email thread has gotten lost or buried in your inbox.

I am feeling stuck. Although I cannot find an "I" when I look, conditioned reactions still arise with alarming rapidity and frequency, resistance abounds, and nothing changes.

Feeling frustrated. Or noticing frustration arising.

<sigh>

I want to finish this process.


Ilona:
Nov 17

Hi carol.

Sorry did not answer earlier. Life got me busy and I could not answer everyone..

Ok, so you say that reactions are still coming. Should they not be coming and is there anyone to own them? What is behind them reactions? Are you the one that is in control of what sensations happen?

If you take an itch and a scratch, are you doing the scratching or hand naturally extends and scratch happens. Notice next time.

Are the reactions different?
If you have a sore spot on your body and somebody bumps into it or presses it hard, what is the reaction?

If you have a sore spot in the mind and somebody presses on it, should the reaction not appear as it does?

See, the goal is not to not react. The goal is to see what is behind the reaction as it happening.

If you look right now at the sensations in the body, is there a senser behind them? What are the sensations happening to? Or they are appearing simply as these sensations?

Write what is noticed.

Much love.

Carol:
Nov 18

so glad to hear from you! i understand how busy life can be.

i am not in control of any sensations as they happen. funny, i had a few itches since reading your email and yes, the hand just naturally reaches out to scratch, there is really no sensation of an i doing the scratching.

if i have a sore spot on the body and somebody bumps it, the reaction is generally to flinch and say, "ow".

if i have a sore spot in the mind and somebody "presses" on it, the reaction is to defend. see, this is where i get tripped up. i'm talking about defensive reactions that happen automatically and if i see clearly that there is no "i" then what is there to defend and why the reaction? unless this is something that is on automatic and it will lose it's charge over time.  so i should just notice the reaction next time one occurs and then look & see what is behind it? i will do that and report back.

looking right now at the sensations in the body they are just appearing, there is no senser, just the sensations of fingers on keyboard, bottom and backs of legs on chair, sounds of video playing in background.

thank you so much for what you are doing.

love & light,

Carol:
Nov 20

Hi Ilona,

Just want to give you an update.

I notice when I bump into something and it hurts, first there is the physical sensation of the body part hitting whatever, say the table leg, and almost immediately a labelling occurs, "that hurts", etc. Without the labelling  it's just sensation. This is the first time I've been able to separate the two as they happen. Interesting...

Also, when my partner said something that generally triggers a defensive reaction in me, I answered neutrally, without the reaction. Not sure if that will continue.

I really feel I can see clearly there is no I - it is just an ephemeral thought. Seeing this, astonishment arises, can it really be this simple? All these years, I've believed in "me", just like I believed in Santa Claus as a kid? LOL, this is incredible, too funny, a cosmic joke indeed!

Am I missing anything, Ilona?

How can I be sure?

Sending love,




Ilona:
Nov 20

haha, yes, it is that simple, just like a belief in Santa clause. can you say that the shift has happened and now it is seen that separate self is an illusion? if so, are you ready for the final questions? if now, is there any doubt?

much love.


Carol:
Nov 21

Hi Ilona,

If I had answered you earlier in the day I would've said yes, I think the shift has happened.

But I had some upsetting family news concerning my brother & elderly mother that made me feel very sad & stressed just a little while ago and now I'm not so sure. I am trying to untangle the threads of the physical sensations in the body and the labelling/story I am attaching to them as I write. He told me a story and in my mind I reacted to his story which added a twist to the story line, and it's all a story, isn't it? I'm feeling confused at the moment. When I look again I see there isn't a "me" but it seems the "me" is resurrected when a reaction happens.

If I truly see this clearly would any reaction take me over so completely? Or perhaps it's like what you said in one of the dialogues on your website, sometimes you get caught up in the movie, temporarily forgetting it's a movie, even after the separate self is clearly seen through. Could that be it?

Sending love,

Carol


Ilona:
Nov 21

Are the reactions happening because there is a me? Or it is me that is reacting? What would you say this me is? Look closer.
Do you expect that once it is seen once, there would be no more reactions and intense feelings ever? Seeing is not what has happened, it's what is here always, now. Shift happens, experiences come and go, but there is something constant underneath the impermanence, that can be noticed over and over again.

If I truly see this clearly would any reaction take me over so completely?
Of course. But when you check, it passes quickly.

Or perhaps it's like what you said in one of the dialogues on your website, sometimes you get caught up in the movie, temporarily forgetting it's a movie, even after the separate self is clearly seen through. Could that be it?

Yes.

How is it going?

Love.


Carol:
Nov 21

Hi Ilona,

I have been looking at this throughout the day. Upon looking closely at the conversation that upset me last night I see that the reactions just arose, they are a tightly woven complex of sensations + many thoughts which make a story. And there is still no me. In fact, shortly after the reaction occurred last night, upon looking, it was clear there was no me. There  was disappointment at the strong reaction and wondering why it occurred and was so strong, which was just more sensations + thoughts.

All of the reactions began to fade fairly quickly and were completely gone by morning, after some rest.

This morning I read a post on your blog, a dialogue between you and Jon, which was very helpful. Jon reported realizing that if there was no "I" for him, there was also no "I" in anyone else and so when an incident like someone cutting him off in traffic occurred it was clear it was not personal, without the "I's" there was just what happened. I hadn't thought of that before and it helps when examining the situation which triggered the reaction last night and other similar reactions.

This shift is very subtle and it is just subconscious expectations of what it will be like that add another layer to whatever reaction arises. I realize I have no idea what it is like and will just have to see from moment to moment.

Feeling somewhat surprised that this is all there is to it. All the years of seeking & reading about enlightenment built this shift up to be something so difficult and complex and in reality it is so simple, yet profound! I can see that there will be a period of integration and am curious to see what that will be like.

I am very grateful for your questions and guidance.

Sending love,

Ilona:
Nov 22

Yes, carol, the simplicity is that blows the mind. How can it not be simple?
Reactions happen and if not owned, they pass quickly. In each reaction there is a gift- a reminder to look, to notice the beliefs that are behind the reaction and it's an opening for them to drop. All repressed and unwanted feelings have to come up to be felt too, this way they leave the system. And saying yes to whatever comes up is what works best.

How does it feel to see this?
How does it feel to notice that me is an illusion?


Much love.


Carol:
Nov 23

Hi Ilona,

Sorry I didn't get back to you sooner. Yesterday was a holiday here and was spent out of town with family.

Yes, it's now clear that reactions will keep occurring until they are fully felt and seen and can then fade away. I guess this happens in different amounts for different people.

It feel very freeing to see this and know that reactions will eventually pass. They will keep arising until they don't.

It feels like a big relief to see that the me is an illusion. Surprise, amazement and laughter! The big a-ha and then hahaha!!! :D

Wow, such huge gratitude to you for chatting with me about this and for all you do with Liberation Unleashed and on your blog.

BIG hug and lots of love to you! What's next?

Ilona:
Nov 23

Oh great! I'm delighted for you. Seeing once will never be unseen.
What's next?
I have a few final questions left for you. Let me know if you are ready to answer. If not, lets address whatever comes up.

Much love to you carol !


Carol:
Nov 23

Ready to answer!


Ilona:
Nov 24

Sweet! Here they are :)

1) Is there a 'me', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) in the experience, is there an experiencer? Is it body that experiences or body is the experienced?

3) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works.

4) How does it feel to see this?

5)How would you describe it to somebody who has never heard about this illusion but is curious about it.

6) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look? Can you describe the moment when seeing happened?


Please answer in full, when ready.

Much love.


Carol:
Nov 24

Hi Ilona,

Thank you for the questions! Let me sit with them for a bit and then I will answer. Most likely by end of weekend.

Sending love,


Nov 25

Hi Ilona,

Lots of resistance arising at thought of answering the questions.

Also doubt that seeing has really happened.

And yet, when looking for "I", it's never found!

No matter how many times looking happens. :D

The doubt arises because there isn't a tremendous difference in life after seeing. Reactions arise regularly as scheduled - hahaha! - although they are seen through quickly and then fade much faster than before.

1) And yet, there is certainty that there is no me now, before, or ever.

2) There is some confusion about the 2nd question. There is no experiencer and yet, the body seems to experience...

3) The illusion of the separate self arises with learning to speak & label things, generally around 18 - 24 mos. Parents, siblings, other family members, literally everyone tells you your name and who you are, until you can point to the image in the mirror and label it me and the name given to it. From there it snowballs...and life becomes all about "me"!

4) When it was first seen it there was astonishment at the obviousness & simplicity of it. That feeling faded rather quickly and it was noticed that life goes on as before. And this is where I get a bit stuck, to be honest. Some people describe the quieting of thoughts and a flow to life arising and so far, that is not what is experienced here. The differences here are so subtle, that doubt arises and disappointment. But then they fade, just as reactions still arise but fade more quickly.

5) I would tell them there is no "me", it's a case of mistaken identity that arose with language, a kind of mass hypnosis, and it seems all the more valid because almost everybody suffers from this case of mistaken identity so that it seems "normal" and the "human condition". I would invite them to look and see for themselves. I would ask them to find the "me" and show me where it is. I also would tell them about the recent discoveries in brain research that decisions are made about 6 seconds before the conscious mind is aware of it.

6) There was no precise moment that I can identity when it became clear. It happened so gradually over the course of our dialogue. Which also feeds the doubt!

Sending this with much love and thanks!

Ilona:
Nov 25

Thank you very much for your answers.
Yes, the line is crossed. There is some settling in to do.. Which, of course also just happens as it happens, there is no one to have a say about it.

Comparing experiences that other had with how it is for you is what creates expectations. And you can recognise them as strong shoulds or shouldn'ts.

If you look at how the awakening process is unfolding, what you think that should be different?

Make a list.

And behind every expectation there is some kind of belief. Simply notice how shoulds and shouldn'ts arise through the day, and see if the opposite is true.

First step in this journey after is learning to trust that all that shows up, is exactly as it should be. Because it just is.

Check if there is an expectation, that once it's seen, all should go nice and smooth, no more negative emotions and bliss, peace 24/7. As if seeing what is would change reality.

The mind will keep checking and looking for a while. Until its clear in every situation. So yes, reactions are still going to happen and pass quickly, as there is nothing there for them to stick to. Sometimes getting sucked into the story will happen and that's ok too, as there is no one that identification is happening to. Even if it seems this way, you can always check and see what is behind it.

Crossing the line is the first step to clarity.


I'm so delighted for you.
Now lets clear those doubts. Explore all expectations that are not being met.


Sending love.


Carol:
Nov 26

Yes, there are some expectations here. An expectation that there will be a noticeable difference in how I feel, that I will feel lighter, freer, more relaxed, joyous, laughing a lot!

So I looked at these expectations and what I noticed is that each one of them is a thought. Nothing more and nothing less and they actually come & go and are not true.

So in seeing that I feel a little shaky, unmoored, like now what? The seeking is over and it took up so much time and was a central theme for the past 10 years especially. And those are just thoughts as well, and fade as quickly as they come.

So all these feelings and expectations are passing like clouds here. :D

The doubts are lifting and a sense of wonder arises, like wow, can it be true?! The non-existent gate has really been passed through? Or, better yet, the gate has vanished and it is seen that the I that would pass through and the gate are not real & never were!!! LOL!!! OK, then...<BIG grin>.

Oh, Ilona, I can't thank you enough for patiently guiding me through this process.

Sending hugs and so much love.


Carol:
Nov 28

Since I haven't heard from you thought I would send another update. Today was interesting - noticing how every feeling that arises is coupled with a thought and fades fairly quickly - as soon as it's seen that it's just a thought is when it begins to fade.

Felt a bit lighter and more carefree than usual today. Not feeling too concerned if that will last - just a curiousness to see what tomorrow brings. :D

Would love any comments when you have time.

Sending MORE hugs and love!


Ilona:
Nov 29

Dear carol,

Thank you for emails and sorry did not answer earlier. Sounds that the line has been crossed! Woo hooo! :)

So all clear? Is there any doubt at all?


Carol:
Nov 29


All is clear here. No lasting doubt. Yesterday was a quiet day, working from home, no interactions with anyone which triggered conditioning...Still noticing that all doubts & resistance to what is are thoughts - nothing more or less - and once that is noticed, the doubt, resistance, thoughts drift away.

Realizing I don't know how this will unfold from here - it's always different - and that's what makes it fun & interesting!

So, what's next? Would like to be able to share with others as things arise, while I stabilize, and someday, guide others who want to see.

Lots of appreciation here for your time & questions!

Ilona:
Nov 29 (1 day ago)


:) sweet!

Yeah, it's always fresh and that makes it fun exploration.

Can I post our conversation on my blog? You never know, it may help someone else to see.. I could use any name you like. Then my other friends/ guides could read it and ask questions, if they have any and then I can invite you to support and sharing groups. There are lots of new friends to share this with :)

Big hug.


Carol:
Nov 29

Oh yes, you absolutely can post this on your blog and you can use my name. I hope it is helpful to others - I know many of the posts were helpful to me during this process. It's all I've been reading since we began!

I look forward to joining the support and sharing groups.

Big hug back!

The iDentity Entity Isn't a Me

I'm very happy to present this conversation. It is a longer one and there are twists and turns, with poetry and expectations. In the end all gets clear. Really enjoyed communicating with Goots. Oh well, read it and see for yourself.  

Goots:
Nov 8


Hi Ilona
Okay. Let's get this underway. Thank you for facilitating "me" this way.


Ilona:
Nov 8


Hi Goots, thanks for email. And it's my pleasure.
To start, please, introduce yourself, tell your story of seeking and tell what is it you are looking for.
:)


Also, please read this disclaimer, it let's you know what this is not about, just so it's clear.
In other words, blue pill or red pill moment, hehe. How ready are you? From 1-10, 1 being mildly curious to burning for truth..


Disclaimer

The method of inquiry used on this site may actually work, unlike many spiritual practices. It will likely change how you regard your self, your relationships, and your world. Neither you nor we can predict how this will turn out for you. If you are already mentally or emotionally fragile, it may exacerbate a mental condition or disorder. If you are currently relying on a prescription or self-prescribed substance to regulate your mood or your sanity, we strongly suggest you not enter into this process. Our guides are not therapists and cannot take responsibility for your mental health, before or after. If your relationships are unsatisfactory, they may improve, or they may not. If you have strong religious or spiritual beliefs, direct experience may support them, or (in our experience) not. You are at all times responsible for your honesty, integrity and focus. A leap into the unknown is just that. We will do everything we can to support it, insofar as we are volunteers working online, with attendant limitations.

We maintain several Facebook groups that allow people who have been through a forum process to discuss and work through common issues. These are not a substitute for any mental or physical help that you may need after Gate. None of the group participants is responsible for your well-being, or can be held liable for any advice. Adopt any more thoughts, concepts, or beliefs at your own risk.

Enter into this process if you are ready and willing to question all your beliefs and assumptions about awakening, if you are ready to face your fears, and if you prefer truth to comfortable lies. Do not enter if your goal is to fix the parts of your life that you think are broken, to embark on a self-improvement project, or to gain some kind of spiritual certification. Spiritual tourists will be taken to the the airlock and launched into deep space.

Goots:
Nov 9

9 outa 10. No airlock.

I have always been a seeker, I think. I went through book after book after book after book. In 1997 I started studying under Robert Fritz after reading his Path of Least Resistance. In 2007 I came across Byron Katie and did The Work every day for 2 years. I did her 9 day School of the Work, twice, and her 28 day Turnaround House, all in 2008. I have since become much less angry, but I haven't seen through "me". I have done a 10=day silent mediation retreat with Adyashanti, and I've done personal sessions with Bentinho Massaro and Scott Kiloby. Last August, September I found the Ruthless Truth site and did sessions with Kevin and two other chaps. In the end some determined I'd seen through the 'me' but I didn't understand why, and lost interest for a time. I had seen how there was no me to see there was no me, but that was it.

I am impatient. I don't want to climb to the top of a Tibetan mountain and stare at my navel for the next 35 years. I don't want to get so damned depressed that I have to CRACK out of this delusion like Eckhart Tolle and Byron Katie. I don't want to take 10-15 years like Adyashanti. Nor 2-4 years like Bentinho or the folks from Great Freedom . org - resting in awareness until something happens. The Ruthless Truth - style of inquiry seems like it's the best chance for a quick resolution to my search for the truth / enlightenment. I don't want to live the rest of my life in delusion, even if 99.9999% of the planet is doing so.

My biggest barrier, I think, is an inability to understand the edict to LOOK. Look at what? Look how? Look for what? I need guidance. I can't do this alone.
I have a history of needing to look good, show off, avoid being stupid. I pride myself on my honesty and integrity, but I can be a slippery eel! I have had conversations with my spouse that after this "I" might just want to feed the squirrels. Since I want to proceed even though I'll likely get the boot for squirrel feeding, I figure I rate
9 outa 10.

Goots

PS - I have written two books. My first book is based on my experiences doing The Work, and I am very, very good at identifying hidden beliefs that prevent people from doing what they want BUT I believe I'd be MUCH more effective doing so, in service to others, if I was clear myself.

PPS - forgive the excessive use of personal pronouns. :)

Goots:
Nov 9
Another thought...

I tend to have an apparent and convincing intellectual understanding of "no me", but it is clearly not an experiential understanding. I've also fallen into the trap of trying to prove/confirm there is "no me" rather than investigating whether or not it is true.


Ilona:
Nov 9

Hi Goots,
Thank you for email.
First, no need to apologise for using language as it's intended.  I use word I all the time without any sense of guilt. It's nothing wrong with language.
:)

I can definitely help you to focus and get it all clear.  But the work is yours and the process is yours. So I need you to write every day to me. Writing gets the mind focused and I will keep giving you questions that need to be looked at and resolved.  I may not answer everyday, as I'm working with lots of people. But I'm here, and will read all you write.

Ok. There are 2 factors that prevent you from seeing- fear and expectations.
It is easy to deal with fear. Expectations is the tricky one. As when you are looking and expecting to see what you think you should be seeing- that blocks the seeing of what is. And all we are looking at is what is so obvious that it's difficult to miss.

A very good companion for this inquiry is gateless gatecrashers book. You may download it for free or buy it in any form you like from www.gatelessgatecrashers.com

The first step is to examine the expectations. So make a long list if all that you expect this seeing will do for you, what you think that awakening is and what you want it to be. Also what you don't want it to be.  Take your time and bring it all up.

Looking forward to your answer.

Much love.


Ilona:
Nov 9

Intellectual understanding is part of seeing the whole picture and if you have it- great. We get to experiential seeing next.  

Goots:
Nov 9

Hi Ilona;

Here is my 'daily missive' to you...
I had actually downloaded the gatelessgatecrashers book the day before yesterday and have read the first few chapters. I will continue reading further today.


1. EVERYTHING I EXPECT THIS SEEING WILL DO FOR ME:

-make me clearer
-vastly reduce or eliminate my funks (periods of prolonged negative emotional states)
-allow me to help other people more effectively
-make me more fearless
-make me non self-conscious (bolder)
-connect with the universe in a deeper way
-

(wow, I just noticed "do for ME". How can this do anything for "ME"?)

continuing...

-make me a more effective writer.
-make me a more effective communicator
-make me a more effective public speaker
-make me less timid
-I will see the truth or the truth will be seen
-make me more credible
-vastly reduce or eliminate anxiety
-vastly reduce or eliminate tendencies toward confrontation
-put me in alignment with 'now' / 'this moment'
-give me the opportunity to speak on par with other awakened people
-make my unique contribution to the world
-possibly free me up, and provide classic content for some memorable standup comedy routines
-living from the standpoint of having NOTHING TO LOSE
-help me see my own shit more easily
-help me clean up my own shit quicker
-I will have an understanding of things I couldn't previously grasp
-I will be able to see through other peoples' shit, and my own, much quicker.



2. WHAT DO I THINK AWAKENING IS:

I think awakening is the elimination of the belief that there is a separate 'me'. I think it puts the human adult back into the state they were in when the person was a baby, inasmuch as there was no self concept, and no cognitive separation between perception and reality. I believe this illusion of separation will dissolve. I don't think it is 'easy'. I think there's a key to seeing this misperception and that great masters of the past have, for some reason, had great difficult passing along the keys to the gateless gate. I think there are two components to awakening, and sometimes they are experienced separately. One can wake up, first, to the truth that everything is one, without recognizing there is no 'me'. So far, I have done neither.
I think somehow, in some niggly, tricky way, the illusion of the separate 'me' can be seen through. I think it has to do with some kind of recognition. I think it is much easier to see the presence of something than the absence of the subject of a strongly held concept.
I think UNenlightenment is a living 'out of phase' with the present moment. It is living a slight moment late...whereby reality is seen as the after-perception of reality rather than reality itself. Living from the standpoint of the ME is living in a time delay. I think awakening is the elimination of that time delay, and the elimination of the NEED for that time delay. I believe awakening involves dispensing with the very need for a separate self - that needs protection from the world. I think awakening involves direct perception, period. Nothing to lose because there's no one to lose it. I believe there is nobody to recognize any of this...but I have yet to experience this.



3. WHAT I WANT THIS AWAKENING TO BE FOR ME:

-I want awakening to enhance my existing life
-I want peace
-I want harmony
-I want humour and laughter
-I want kindness
-I want a life filled with the force of the creative process
-I want to slice through my own bullshit
-I want to make even more powerful contributions to the lives of others
-I want to stay in my own business
-I want to live and let live
-I want to be true to myself and find a profession / calling that is filled with purpose
-I want to keep, maintain, and perfect my creative process
-I want to make a library of cool, creative videos
-I want to write a string of books
-I want to show other people the path to peace
-I want to travel
-I want to be effective in practical matters
-I want awakening to make me a better soccer player! (Better vision on the field for passing.)
-I want awakening to enhance my relationships.



4. WHAT I DON"T WANT THIS AWAKENING TO BE FOR ME:

-I don't want to lose those things / people who are currently precious to me
-I don't want to be taken out at the knees and needing 5-10 years to find my way back in the world/society
-I don't want to replace one dream state with another DREAMY state.
-I don't want to end up in some vast, dark fucking hole.
-I don't want to be an enlightened asshole
-I don't want awakening to be a huge struggle that takes me out
-I don't want awakening to be a stress on my spouse
-I don't want awakening to imperil our personal finances (make me useless in our business)
-I don't want awakening to prevent me from properly contributing to the financial needs of our household
-I don't want to be a weeping mess
-I don't want to be on an emotional rollercoaster
-I don't want to be thrown into the loony bin
-I don't want to be seen as a flake


Ilona:
Nov 10

Hi Goots, thank you for your sincere and honest answer. There are a lot of wants and don't wants in your system. :)
One thing for sure, you get BS detectors and can see your own shit. Hehe.

2. WHAT DO I THINK AWAKENING IS:

"I think awakening is the elimination of the belief that there is a separate 'me'. I think it puts the human adult back into the state they were in when the person was a baby, inasmuch as there was no self concept, and no cognitive separation between perception and reality. I believe this illusion of separation will dissolve. I don't think it is 'easy'."

It is easy. It's only that this has never been questioned, that it seems complicated. One look and what is seen can never be unseen. It's a pattern recognition. Drop of belief.


"I think there's a key to seeing this misperception and that great masters of the past have, for some reason, had great difficult passing along the keys to the gateless gate. I think there are two components to awakening, and sometimes they are experienced separately. One can wake up, first, to the truth that everything is one, without recognizing there is no 'me'. So far, I have done neither. 
I think somehow, in some niggly, tricky way, the illusion of the separate 'me' can be seen through. I think it has to do with some kind of recognition. I think it is much easier to see the presence of something than the absence of the subject of a strongly held concept." 

Ok this is where we look at what is real and what is imaginary. How do you know that unicorn is not real? Is it tricky to see that unicorn does not exist in reality? Do you need to see no-unicorn first?




"I think UNenlightenment is a living 'out of phase' with the present moment. It is living a slight moment late...whereby reality is seen as the after-perception of reality rather than reality itself. Living from the standpoint of the ME is living in a time delay. I think awakening is the elimination of that time delay, and the elimination of the NEED for that time delay. I believe awakening involves dispensing with the very need for a separate self - that needs protection from the world. I think awakening involves direct perception, period. Nothing to lose because there's no one to lose it. I believe there is nobody to recognize any of this...but I have yet to experience this."

Yes, direct experience, perception is about living in the now, seeing life as it is, not what it should or shouldn't be according to fantasies.

3. WHAT I WANT THIS AWAKENING TO BE FOR ME:

-I want awakening to enhance my existing life
.............

None of the wants have anything to do with seeing that there is no self.
Did you believe in magical Santa or tooth fairy when you were a kid?
If so, did life change when it was recognised to be a lie?

See, life goes on with or without belief in separation. Things happen. States are not permanent. Love and peace forever is a magical story. And seeing through illusion DOES NOT change the character. The character does not get super powers and does not become something that he is not now. It's all very ordinary.


4. WHAT I DON"T WANT THIS AWAKENING TO BE FOR ME:

-I don't want to lose those things / people who are currently precious to me

What is true is not threatened. All that is untrue falls away.



-I don't want to be taken out at the knees and needing 5-10 years to find my way back in the world/society

No worries about this. Seeing will not catapult you out of the world.  :)

-I don't want to replace one dream state with another DREAMY state.

We are looking for reality here. As it is. Seeing that does not replace any state. It's not that you are gonna get no-self. Like Santa wasn't replaced by no- Santa.

-I don't want to end up in some vast, dark fucking hole.

Hm, this is fear speaking.

-I don't want to be an enlightened asshole

If you are already an asshole, you will stay that way, otherwise there is a little chance that it may happen out of nowhere.

-I don't want awakening to be a huge struggle that takes me out
For some people it takes a while to settle in as all belief structure starts falling off. It does not last for long though. 

-I don't want awakening to be a stress on my spouse

Don't worry about that. Unawakened you is more stress :)

-I don't want awakening to imperil our personal finances (make me useless in our business)

A lot of people leave their business.

-I don't want awakening to prevent me from properly contributing to the financial needs of our household

Well it's really not up to you and what you want. It's what happens. It can go either way. And this is where you have to trust life- all is happening as it should.

-I don't want to be a weeping mess
-I don't want to be on an emotional rollercoaster

Hm, sometimes this is necessary.

-I don't want to be thrown into the loony bin

This one is quite funny, don't you think?

-I don't want to be seen as a flake

Ok, what we have here is a lot of wants. It's good to have them all in the open. Because these wants are exactly in the way of seeing what is and accepting what you see as IT.

Nothin that you expect is what it's going to be like.
So we need to leave all theses expectations right here, we can come back to them later. But for now, we are going to take a fresh look.

Please write to me what comes up, when you leave your expectations.

Sending love.


Goots:
Nov 10


but not when nothing itself is aware  :)


Ilona:
Nov 10
?

Goots:
Nov 10
Hi Ilona;

I read through some more of the Liberation Unleashed book "Gateless Gatecrashers" earlier this evening and saw through "me". I was reading Joao's story - pages 68 and 69. Does life need a watcher at all? This question struck home. This took "me" to "nothing is aware". I wrote the following things down on a piece of paper: "There is watching without a watcher. Nothing's aware."
"There is nothing to do." "There is nothing to control." "Shit just happens." page 69. "Me? shrug. Assumption." "I'm an assumption...with a lotta gumption.

It was a very simple shift. I went to bed. My wife is sick so we got up together an hour later, had a short conversation about it and then I just put her back to bed again. Nothing and everything is different. There is a marked absence in mental chatter. There is a noticeable absence of push/need and yet when I see something to do I just do it. See garbage on kitchen counter put it in garbage can. That kind of thing.
When problem thoughts arise they last half a sentence and wither to nothing. When the thought comes to "rest in the moment" it's easy instead of a struggle, and there isn't any mental chatter to avoid or suppress.

I would be open to your follow-up questions, and welcome them(!) and yet there is an absence of doubt. This is different.

Many of the same thoughts and impulses are there. The impulse to properly punctuate my sentences and indent a new paragraph, for example.
Nothing wrong with that. Just Goots Gootsing.

Ilona:
Nov 11

That was wonderful to read :) how is it feeling today? Still clear? If so, can you say that shift has definitely happened and you are ready for final questions?

Much love!


Goots:
Nov 11

Hi Ilona

It doesn't feel the same as it did in the middle of the night Friday. Yesterday started similarly but events occurred during the day that seemed to bring back "usual" emotional upsets. For example, a client called giving me far less notice than I would normally require to set up some work and there was irritation. However, upon examination later I realized emotional upset doesn't predicate the existence of a "me". It's just emotional upset. Further, that the old mind structures (beliefs / habits etc) haven't changed, but there seems to be a little more space to see them and deal with them now.

Part of "me" expects to feel different all the time. When doubt did come up yesterday I noticed, again, that the existence of doubt doesn't predicate the existence of a "me".

On the plus side, I notice it seems much much easier to just stop and not have the incessant stream of thinking dominate attention. This is definitely different. Having said all this, it would be preferred that this be confirmed and ironclad. I also notice that there will be much work to do (on the mind structures etc) now and even an experience of 'non-abiding awakening' doesn't predicate the existence of a "me". There are still expectations running.

Goots:
Nov 11

Just wrote this over coffee...

There is no me. Is it true?
No watcher. Just this. Handwriting in this moment.
Noticing of shadows
Noticing of breath
Noticing the movement of attention
Attention shifts without a manager
Things largely taste and feel the same
There was an expectation that sensory input would be heightened somehow
Access to space
The volume of the commentator has been lowered
Almost like some of the commentating tracks have been turned off
Notice that eating without attention is not an indicator of a me.
Attention CAN be put there and it's amazing when it is.

Goots:
Nov 12

Hi Ilona;
This morning there doesn't seem to be the same level of presence, and that I have lapsed back into a focus on thinking/thoughts. And yet, when I take a moment to just rest, the mental chatter ceases easily, so I guess there's still a confusion taking place between what is expected and what is. Here's what happening as far as I can tell.

I am checking things out in terms of my experiencing of the moment. When I find things similar to how they were, doubt creeps in. When doubt creeps in, there's the question as to whether I've "gotten" there is no me. Of course, there is no me regardless of whether I get it or not and there is no I to get it. Then there's the thought that I shouldn't have to rest in the moment to experience the moment, it should just be happening automatically. Schism between expectation and reality again. There isn't an allowance for an acclimatization period. If an acclimatization period shouldn't be needed, then further doubt creeps in. These are all just thoughts coming and going. Further, there's the arising thought that I shouldn't have to "remind myself there is no me if I get it" (no I to get it). Again, just thoughts arising but...

Ilona:
Nov 13

How is it going, Goots? Can you say that shift has happened it is it still happening?
Do you expect that seeing no self is an end or you see this as opening, a new beginning?
Was there ever a self, I, me in charge of life?
Sending love.


Goots:
Nov 14

Hi Ilona

I started to respond to you this morning and then I thought I should really sit in this last question of yours.
so I'm sitting in it  :)
I would say that there is an ongoing shift / reorientation happening. The most noticeable thing is that when I rest in the present moment the volume of thinking is almost non existent. This is weird. It would normally take me an hour of meditating to catch a mere glimpse of this. Then again, I'm not a meditator.

I see no self as an opening, new beginning, rather than an end, although it is also 'an end'. An end to mental baggage. For example, I had the opportunity to attend a business course tomorrow and instead of foregoing the course because of an unwillingness to reschedule a number of preset appointments, I just made those calls and did it. Done. Easy. No fuss. Usually I would be in the other peoples' business, and their possible reactions.

I started to respond to the last question this morning...from a logic standpoint. Which, of course, is rubbish. There isn't no self ever because it's logical. And so I'm backing up to get a much deeper sense of an answer. What is wanted is an absolute, total knowing. No me now. No me in the past. No me ever.

If you have some suggestions on how to approach your question "Was there ever a self, I, me in charge of life?" they would be welcome.

Ilona:
Nov 14

Morning Goots,

From your answer I see that something definitely shifted :) great. The absence of usual reactions is a good indicator that something is different, ability to respond and act without mental noise is another.

Ok, if you remember an event from the childhood, bring that memory closer- was there a self there? is there I in that picture? The choices that been made, could they have been different? Was there an entity inside that little boy's skin?

Write down what you notice.

Then imagine yourself in 1 year from now, is there a self there? How does this image get created? Is it created by the I or mind creates it effortlessly and observes it by itself? Is this image reality?

Write all you notice.
Then look at others. Friends, family, strangers. Is there a me in them? Are there separate entities driving those bodies and minds?

What do you find?

Now look at Goots. Is he here? What is here?
Sending love.

Goots:
Nov 14
awesome!


Goots:
Nov 16

Hi Ilona

Sorry for the delay in responding to you. Still counts as a daily, though, 'cause I responded yesterday morning, and now I'm responding tonight. Important to keep those commitments!  :)

SO...

Last night I had a incident with my heart on the soccer field. I was running full out and suddenly my heart started racing like a machine gun. I had to stop. I had chest pain. I walked slowly to the sidelines, was helped by team mates  after a time everything calmed down but one of my friends called an ambulance anyway. We've had team mates with heart troubles before AND on the field of play so there's a history and a prudent caution there. I felt a little embarrassed being wheeled off the field on a stretcher but it was only a twang, and for the most part the entire evening of tests and EKG's and so forth occurred with very little emotion and no fear. Weird looking back on it. No fear at all.

For the record, vitals were okay, blood pressure fine, etc etc and I have a few tests to go through in the next week or so just to be sure there are no issues.

This has interrupted my planned inquiry using your proposed questions, although I have seen a childhood incident where "I" first thought (or one of the first that) "I" was "not okay". I was about 7 years old, riding my bicycle with a bunch of neighbourhood kids, and I was last in the group. As we went faster and faster, standing on the pedals, I tried to get out of last place but couldn't do it. "I was last / not okay / weak".

So, was there a self there?

There was a boy with a self image. There was a situation which led to a judgment. Who was judging "me"? Was there an "I" judging a "me"? Bike riding boy labels self image negatively. There was a bike riding boy. There were thoughts about the situation, judgements and labeling. There was a self image. There was not me labeling a thought of "myself", but a labeling of a thought of a self image.
"I" thought "I" was last, but was "I"? Was there a self there?
Gonna sleep on this.


Goots:
Nov 17

Hi Ilona

My spouse thought it was funny that I was griping about not having enough time to work on this stuff today and yesterday, because I said I didn't have enough "me time" ... to work on "no me". hardy har har.

Today during a conversation I saw that it's not possible for a non-existent self to have a self concept. There can be a self concept, but to self is there to have/own it. Felt like another shift. However, I haven't fully explored the past / future questions you presented the last
time.

Seem caught up in the thinking realm again.

That was yesterday, and this morning I'm just plain GRUMPY! Swirling thoughts of complaint about a jarring tackle on the soccer field the other day that may have caused the heart thing later in the game. Some issues to deal with in terms of the management of the league. My weight gain. A lack of free time. Grrr. FGoots. Arrgh. Then there's THIS! Apparent seeing and then slipping back into thinking like this. Non acceptance of reality. No perspective. Same old, same old.

Is there a me having these shitty thoughts or are there just a bunch of shitty thoughts swirling in this head? I noticed last night that there is a 'performance' factor happening in these emails. Am I needing to 'perform well' or is there just a thought that arises and becomes in play?

The grumpiness subsides with the first sip of coffee and a change in perspective regarding my thinking. My thinking? Or just thinking? I think of a me attaching to thoughts and quickly realize there would be / is no me to attach to anything.

So the grumpy train seems to have slowed considerably. Normally I would be grumpy for hours. In the past it could last days and even weeks. Am I grumpy? There are negative thoughts? A growing sequence of them. Repeating. Being believed. by me? Do "I" feel emotions or are they just felt?

I look at the email from you below, from a few days ago, and thoughts arise that I should have answered these questions by now. What's left if "I" can't beat "my SELF" up anymore? Reality. Hasn't been done. Doesn't say anything about me because there is no me. I am still taking any gurgle of negative emotion as evidence that I exist/exists. I haven't done what's been asked of me. gurgle gurgle arggh. It is not necessarily evidence of a "me". I'm bad. The mind has used "me" as a tool for correcting behavior since childhood. It's just identification with the story. I am the story I have about myself. Without I, it's a story attached to nothing. The story is still there. Thoughts about the history of this human being are still there. Memories are still there. Mental pictures are still there. Even emotions attached to the memories are still there. The story is associated with this human being but it's not OWNED by it. No owner.

It's a massive delusion so tiny and subtle. It's a tiny, little thing masquerading as a giant monster. Utterly powerless. Not even tiny. Non existent. An ant is real. The thought of me is not. But when the person's thinking is cloaked in "ME", the entire world looks completely different. How can something that doesn't exist have any power. Thoughts like "The "I" is taking over my thoughts again" or whatever are absurd.

I look back at what I wrote 30 minutes ago, or so, "I'm just plain GRUMPY" and they are letters in sequence. G-R-U-M-P-Y. Might as well be X-J-M-F-A-L. It's just like money. We taking thinking and thoughts, which are representive OF something and believe it actually IS something. A paper bill is just paper, yet we can take it as representative of value. The words and images for I, me, my, self are communication tools only. They are labels for this human being. They help this human being get the salt at the dinner table.

Thought arises, "do I really get it?". Thought arises "no I to get it". Just thoughts. Story. Commentary. Habitual brain activity representative of nuttin'. There's a war going on and there's NOBODY ON THE OTHER SIDE! Seeing is merely acknowledging what can actually be seen. Is there typing. Yes. Is there breathing. Yes. Is there a hum sound coming from the computer. yep. Is there typing stopping and then starting again. Yes. Are there thoughts in the head. yes. Do the objects of thoughts actually exist? No. Is the thought of the keyboard the ACTUAL KEYBOARD? no. Is the thought of the computer hum the ACTUAL computer hum? no. Is the thought of the human being typing these words the ACTUAL HUMAN BEING? no. It's not "I'm a little teapot and I'm okay." It's "I'm a little label and I don't exist in reality." I know. Gotta work on the lyricism...

Have I really got it? comes up again. no I to get it. comes up again. Just fGootsin' thoughts representing nothing. How can the object of a thought have a thought? EVEN if the object of the thought has had a meticulously crafted story built around it over decades!!? Ornate bullshit is still bullshit.

Goots:
Nov 18

Ok, if you remember an event from the childhood, bring that memory closer- was there a self there?
This is kind of a trick question. I don't think it's meant as that but ...

I'm being asked to find the self in a past event, that no longer exists in reality (the event), and answer a question related to a memory of that event, which is a thought existing in the present. Mental backflip, somersault, headtilt, no. The self is a mental construct now, and was a mental construct then. No actual self existed or has ever existed, though it was believed to be real for many, many years, starting about age 3 or 4. Perhaps very sporadically or intermittently prior to that, starting at age 2.

is there I in that picture?

There is no "I" in the picture I have as a child. There is a young human organism on a bicycle. Having thoughts and reacting to those thoughts as if they were real rather than imaginary. The choices that been made, could they have been different? What was, was. It wasn't different and can't be different. Life goes as it does. Once done, that's it. There has been a mental story filled with alternatives and reconstructions but those were all fantasies - many of them stressful. This shouldn't have happened. That shouldn't have happened. But it happened.

Was there an entity inside that little boy's skin?
Doe a deer a female deer. Ray a drop of golden sun. Me an entity inside that little boy's skin? Huh? ...
Me, a name, I call myself. No. not quite. Me, a name, yes. I call myself. Yes, in language only, but not as far as a 'separate entity' inside the little boy's body is concerned. Can't find that entity. Thoughts occur about this "me" thing, but no actual me exists. It's a reference for the organism called Goots.


Then imagine yourself in 1 year from now, is there a self there?
I have completely screwed up this inquiry process and instead of seeing there is no me, I've actually created one out of nothing! So much for performance and approval. No, there is no me now, no me in the past, no me in the future. Even if there is a lapse into identification with the mental story of me, there still wouldn't be an actual me. I is the object/subject of thought only.

How does this image get created?
Me is an inference. My parents and relatives and others referred to me as Gootsy. They said "you are Gootsy" and so the thought came "I am Gootsy." They said "This is your nose, Gootsy." So I thought "This is MY nose." I am Gootsy and I own this nose. They said "Where did YOU go and play Gootsy?" and I said "I went to Kenny's house." And so this little boy associated his body, his thinking, his activities, and everything else with a me, I , self named Gootsy. From this was inferred an actual me, I, self. Just as every(?) other human child has done throughout history, and perhaps into prehistory. Live was then lived self-referentially. My day. My school work  My job. My girlfriend. My pain. My knee. My story. My thinking. etc etc etc. This way of life is further entrenched because every other person seems to be under the same understanding. Their day. Their school work  Their job. etc etc. There isn't a reason to question what is "patently understood". We agree that living an ego centric life isn't optimal, so we have therapists and counsellors, and drugs, but the structure of our thinking is not questioned. The basic assumption that "I exists" is not looked into nor looked at.

If you're asking how does this "future self in one year" image get created, then exactly as any other imaginary me image gets created. There is a thought. And within the mental picture or story an image of my self is inserted. This is not this organism, but a mental picture of this organism. And along with this picture HAS BEEN an assumption that "I" am that. Is it created by the I or mind creates it effortlessly and observes it by itself?

The subject/object of a thought doesn't have the power to create. The inference that I exists is merely a centerpiece for an elaborate life story that gets built up around it. Events are attached to it. Reactions are attached to it. Emotions are attached to it. Experiences are attached to it. Traits and characteristics are attached to it. Talents and predispositions are attached to it. Other beliefs are attached to it. Dreams and aspirations are attached to it. Philosophies and attitudes, preferences and dispositions. The creation of a mental story of "me" is effortlessly created and observed in the mind - impacting behavior. It SEEMS like the "I" is having thoughts, choosing directions, implementing plans, managing activity, and producing results - or fucking things up. The results of which feed back and reflect upon the self story. However, since "I" is just the subject/object of thoughts, it can't have thoughts itself, choose directions, implement plans, manage activity, produce results or even, (PHEW!) fuck up! The imaginary I can't fuck up. This leaves one possibility. That nobody is having thoughts, they just happen. That nobody is implementing plans, plans just get implemented (or not). That nobody manages activity, but activity gets managed (or not). That nobody produces results or fucks up, but results get produced, or not,and fuckups happen or not. What's left? SPACE.

Is this image reality?

A mental image can never be reality. It is an image. In a similar way, a photo of something is not the thing photographed. The difference is that a photograph of a church is a photo of something that DOES exist in reality while the mental image of "me" in the future is NOT representative of somethign that exists in reality. It is image PLUS belief.

Then look at others. Friends, family, strangers. Is there a me in them?

Hmm. The sentence "They believe in me." has taken on a whole new meaning. Just about everyone I know is a believer. They believe there is a real, separate self running their life, in charge of things, owning stuff, and making decisions. Just because they believe it doesn't make it so. The belief impacts their behavior but doesn't mean there is a me in them. This organism has a self concept, as they do. But just that, a self CONCEPT. It's a story. An idea. But not an entity.

Are there separate entities driving those bodies and minds? What do you find?

Those bodies and minds are driven by thoughts and habits and conditioned responses and impulses and external stimuli. They're buffeted by what's seen and heard and experienced. By what's remembered and not remembered. However, there is no controlling entity pulling levers and stepping on the gas pedal.

Now look at Goots. Is he here?

Goots is here as an organism labeled or named Goots, but there is no separate entity existing within the body or mind controlling what happens. There is a self concept related to Goots, with a history, memories of experiences, memories of relationship dynamics, memories of accomplishments and failures, holidays and projects, likes and dislikes. However, no me can be found in reality in any physical way. The pen on my desk has substance. Goots does not. The thought of the pen on my desk is an image, and as such so is Goots. A mental image. Long constructed but still without substance. Worked and reworked and reworked, massaged and coddled. But still just a mental image.

What is here?

The hum of the computer. The tippy tapping of the keys on the keyboard. The feeling of the glasses on the nose of this human being as it views the words materializing on the blank screen as typing takes place. The feeling of the bottom of the feet against the credenza. The noticing of the backspacing to correct and mispelled word. The feeling of a place on the stomach that might need scratching. The tilt up of the head. Breathing. The hearing of the breathing of my spouse as she sleeps in the other room. Thoughts that items on my desk require attention. The thought of the time (12:52am). A thought that there STILL might be bullshit clouding my seeing. The seeing. A throbbing in the bottom of my left foot. The noticing of the eyeglasses on the nose again. More typing.

Footnote: There is a thought to ask you to double and triple check "me" to ensure "I'm" not getting away with just an intellectual understanding or some such.
There is no me to bullshit you, but bullshit can still happen!

Ilona:
Nov 18
.........
Wow, that your friend got through just by reading the GG book. Amazing.
Would be great if he could write to me and we could talk.


Oh yeah, I see that veil has been pierced, the imaginary I is being seen to be an illusion, great.

But what is here that still seeks approval? Is there I to own the bullshit?
Hehe, yes, bs can still happen, and be seen for what it is.

How does it feel to see that iEntity was imagined?

Much love.


Goots:
Nov 18

The other night when I was reading pages 68 and 69 in the Gateless Gatecrashers book there was a seeing through of "I". Particularly relating to there being witnessing without a witness. This resulted
in a subtle but profound state change. Since that time, the state at that time has diminished, and there are
thoughts of doubt arising from time to time. Did I really see through this or, rather, was it really seen through?

Behaviour has definitely been different, but still those doubt thoughts remain. Thought structures have been observed to be unravelling, but still the doubt thoughts come up, again because of an expectation that the initial state change should have remained.

Part of what's going on is that there are residual habits, expectations, beliefs and patterns of behaviour and thought which are still in place, but shifting. Just because there is an approval seeking taking place doesn't mean there is an "I" seeking approval. It SEEMS logical that seeing through "me" would eliminate the need for approval seeking, since there is no me to seek approval and thus no need for it. However, and again, there are these residual elements which are, in fact, still in place. It's like the foundation of things has been dissolved but things that it has been supporting haven't yet crashed to the ground.

For example, there remains an infrastructure of expectation, that now has no foundation. But there is a time delay involved wherein the infrastructure still operates, but can be toppled with a slight nudge. There is the way it is expected to take place and there is the way it actually is. Expectations are imaginary sequences of events. Santa's route from the North Pole. It makes sense that the initial state of freedom and clarity isn't existing at the moment because it's clouded by the dust rising as a result
of the collapse of a world(view).

The next question is 'does it matter?'. Can I stop, now, and be present in that same way? Of course, can stopping happen? Yes, significantly less internal chatter comes immediately.

Is there an I that still seeks approval? There is no I that seeks approval, but there may yet be approval seeking. In the context of our conversation, there is still a desire for 'confirmation'. Iron clad, no bullshit, this time it's for real, confirmation. There is some comparison there. As mentioned, I'd worked with three other people along this vein without success. Is it possible that "I" has some power to hide out somewhere and subvert the process? No. But it's possible that identification with a fictional "I"
reoccurs. It wouldn't be an entity identifying however. Just as there has never been an entity identifying. Identification happens when it does, and doesn't when it doesn't.

The iDentity entity
isn't a me
It's an imaginary friend
that's not mine
The iDentify entity
isn't an I
and your imaginary friend
isn't thine
We all seem to have
iDentity entities
running around in our head
But absolutely everyone's
iDentity entity
is something non-existent
it's dead.
My personal favourite iDentity entity
the one I've always enlisted
Is the same as your iDentity entity
neither of which
ever
existed.


Ilona:
Nov 18

First time you took a look and seeing happened was an opening. Now it's available at any moment. It's not about experience that followed the seeing, is about being able to see this whenever you stop to look.

Does that make sense?
Checking will be happening till it stops. And flow with it. Notice that happening and notice how behaviours change.

It certainly takes time to stabilise.
The crash of belief system can be gradual or instant, whichever way it is for you, that is way it is. Trusting that helps to balance.

What kind of power I has?
What is it still in charge of?

Much love.


Goots:
Nov 19

Good morning, Ilona

Thank you for that clarification. It is extremely helpful.

Also, I had a conversation on the phone with my friend who awoke
reading your book and I believe he's now in touch with you. Thank you for being there so readily for people. I am very happy for my friend, and pleased that he can plug into your support structure. "I" am also extremely grateful for all the work you've done
for "myself" !

What kind of power does I have?

It doesn't have any power and never did because it doesn't exist and never did. The object of a thought doesn't have power any more than any imaginary character has power. What's true is that the belief in an actual me has an impact in the same way that a paranoid person, convinced
that everyone wants to kill them, would have an impact on their behaviour. The mental story just colours reality.

What is I still in charge of?

It's not in charge of anything because it doesn't exist. However, and again, there are residual belief structures that may be taking their time to crumble. For example, the truth that nobody is aware has been seen but the realization that nobody scratches may not have been correctly seen yet. It's a very
minor fix. An habitual thought "I'm itchy". A scratch. A thought "I scratched". In one sense, the "I" just doesn't have anything behind it anymore. It's a
language device only. However, in some circumstances there may be some residual identification with that label.


Goots:
Nov 19

Just realized that "I" started as the misunderstanding of an innocent child.

Ilona:
Nov 20

Nice!

Are you ready for the final questions?


Goots:
Nov 20

Yes

Ilona:
Nov 20


Cool. Answer when ready in full :) looking forward to reading it.
<(Usual questions here)>

Goots:

1) Is there a 'me', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

I is/was a dream character. There was identification as the dream character and even a belief
that the dream character dreamt the dream character.

2) in the experience, is there an experiencer? Is it body that experiences or body is experienced?

The experiencer is a dream character. Body does not experience, there is just experiencing.

3) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works.

The innocent child, lacking a self concept, observes people in the world making reference to it as "you", "Gootsy", or "Sally". The child learns labelling and begins to understand that these labels represent real things. The doggie label represents a real doggie. The teddy bear label represents a real teddy bear, and so "me" is taken to represent a real "me". The child then mistakenly takes itself to be the thought it has of itself, and this mistaken perception persists into adulthood, gathering an extensive and nuanced story around it. The believing in a separate self then requires that it defend itself and all kinds of whacky behaviour ensues.

"Look at the elephant, Gootsy. Do "you" see it?"
"Yes, mommy. "I" do."
(There is seeing and the assumption that the imagined "I" does the seeing.)

contrast this to

"Look at the elephant, Gootsy. Is there seeing?"
"Yes, mommy, there is seeing an elephant."

The illusion of a separate self is the idea that there is a someone/something separate seeing and experiencing that which is
seen and experienced.

4) How does it feel to see this?

surprisingly unmoved.

5)How would you describe it to somebody who has never heard about this illusion but is curious about it.

Seeing through this is very doable. Just follow the simple instructions. Read the Gateless Gatecrashers and see the truth that there is still a human being doing all the same things, having thoughts, and sensing, but the "me" that has been taken to exist is just the concept "me" (self concept / self image). And the awareness of that "me" isn't "me" either, but just awareness without one who is aware. There is no watcher, but watching occurs. The whole illusion is simply the mistake made by an innocent child. You is the object of thought, nothing more. So when you read how this has happened for others, see that it is also possible for "you", in the same way that the possibility of breaking the four minute mile was imagined to be impossible until Roger Bannister proved that false.

6) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look? Can you describe the moment when seeing happened?

Reading the Gateless Gatecrashers and seeing there was watching (awareness) but no watcher. (pages 68/69).

7) have you got anything to add?

Seeing this is possible! It IS possible. It is quite subtle but simple. Persist. Don't let the fears and expectations stop the inquiry.

Goots:
Nov 23

Good morning Ilona. I am at the airport on my way from Victoria BC to Phoenix Arizona where I'll be spending a few days with my friend Gord and his wife. My spouse, will be joining us tomorrow. Should be able to access Internet from there do can continue the daily emails.

Regards


Ilona:
Nov 23


Thank you for answers!

Very interesting answer to question 4. You say that it's surprisingly unmoving.
Can you tell more about it?


Goots:
Nov 23

There are three aspects to this. There was the moment of realization, the expectation, and the attitude now.

1) The moment of realization felt like a small shift but contained within it a profound and deep change. In other words the shift itself was small but the location of that shift was fundamental (to all thought) and impacts everything.

2) the shift felt and feels  like nothing much at all - particularly compared to what was expected ( awe / wonder / bliss ).

 3) The attitude now is kind of like "of course". It's akin to being told that your hands won't be dirty any more of you wash them. A patently obvious fact, once seen, is nothing special.
Having said all this, there have been at least 3 occasions now where what is being experienced had been profoundly different and quite AWEsome. There have also been several dozen smaller behavioural shifts where "my" normal way of being isn't.

Goots:
Nov 25

This morning there is irritation, again, because of a contrast between expectations and experience.
The "I should be feeling blissed out and connected to everything" expectation has re-arisen. Mental
gymnastics are taking place where thoughts arise like "I need to rest in the moment." contrasted with
an immediate "There is no "I" to rest, blah blah blah." When a thought arises like "It should be different"
and I just rest in the moment, the thought dissolves and the problem along with it. There is also the
thoughts something like "I need to keep looking for no me." like I need to ensure "I got it / it was gotten".
It's like "without the I" there is a missing 'track to run on'...


Goots:
Nov 25

and now is the track, and what arises in the moment is the next thing to do.

Ilona:
Nov 25


1) The moment of realization felt like a small shift but contained within it a profound and deep change. In other words the shift itself was small but the location of that shift was fundamental (to all thought) and impacts everything. 

Here you nailed it. It's exactly how it was for me too.

2) the shift felt and feels  like nothing much at all - particularly compared to what was expected ( awe / wonder / bliss ).

Hahaha, yeah, it never is. That is why we address expectations as the first step. :) there are so many ideas about what it's got to be like and none of them are true.

 3) The attitude now is kind of like "of course". It's akin to being told that your hands won't be dirty anymore of you wash them.

Yeah, or if you put pink glasses on from that moment everyone will be nice to you and you will be happy ever after.

A patently obvious fact, once seen, is nothing special. 
Having said all this, there have been at least 3 occasions now where what is being experienced had been profoundly different and quite AWEsome. There have also been several dozen smaller behavioural shifts where "my" normal way of being isn't.

Yes, and they will keep coming.  :)
It's great to just notice.


Ilona:
Nov 25

If you compare awakening with tsunami, it's what it does to belief system and structure. There is time for clean up and settling in.

Nothing at all requires an I to arise. Reactions, projections, identifications, story, all come up just because to no one. Expectations is what creates tension. Trusting experience and trusting that all is happening as it should and that 'this too shall pass' are the things to remember, when stickiness comes up.  And it will keep coming up, till there will be fragments of imagined self in the system.

What expectations haven't been met?
Can you look closer into that?

Are they your expectations?


Much love.


Goots:
Nov 26

Hi Ilona

I did some extensive work on 'expectations' yesterday and blew up the silly notion
that my expectations haven't been met. Holy crap, was that a poor interpretation of
reality!

Expectations are simply stories of how "I" think it should be now, or in the future.
They have nothing to do with reality. They are largely born out of comparative thinking.
This happened this way to that person so it should happen that way to me. Or this happened
to me before this way so it should continue. When "I" get hooked into an expectation "I"
completely lose sight of what is. At that point it is just not possible to be grateful, as I can't
see anything that is actually around in the moment. It's an alternate universe.

As for your question as to whether or not they are 'my' expectations - no. They are just like
any other thoughts, arising and falling away from and into nothing. Sometimes they are met,
most often they are not. There are also a host of other expectations which are lived by, from a mundane standpoint, that do occur.

In a way, it is expected that if I start typing as I've always done, the letters that appear when I press the
keys I press will come out as expected. Press the X key and the X appears. This is more like 'operational
expectations'. Put foot forward, find surface to shift weight to. And occasionally, particularly when going
up stairs, there's 'put foot forward (believing there's one more step), find only air, stumble forward - startled.

Without expectations, this 'unravelling' merely rolls forward as it does, and there is more openness to greet whatever appears.


Goots:

Good morning Ilona. I am at the airport on my way from Victoria BC to Phoenix Arizona where I'll be spending a few days with my friend Gord and his wife. My spouse will be joining us tomorrow. Should be able to access Internet from there do can continue the daily emails.



Regards




Ilona:
Nov 27

So cool! You will have a great time :)

Can I put our conversation in the blog, so I can invite you to the support groups?

I can use whatever name you like, or just an initial, if you prefer. Out conversation may be helpful for somebody else.


Sending love.


Goots
Nov 27

Use "Goots" for my name. Thanks ;)

Ilona:
Thank you, it was my pleasure to "guide" you.

Gatecrash!

Gord:
Contact commenced......Gord


Ilona:
Hi Gord :)
Pleasure to meet you.

Rick said, you read Gateless Gatecrashers book and saw. Can you tell what happened?

Gord:
It was the end of a 28 year process. Back then, at a weekend retreat, I set a goal to figure out how humans worked (can't remember why). The yearning was constant all this time. About 2 years ago things started to get less attached to outcome. About 6 months ago I discovered non-duality. I mentioned that to Rick and he pointed me at you guys. Read the website first then GG. During GG reading logical mind said that's gotta be true. With every story things starred shifting. I'm in a peaceful environment so few distractions. Near the end of GG an emptiness appeared in the back of my head and mind talk went eerily quiet. Thoughts came and went without interruption. I mentioned this to my wife so she quit testing me for a few days (thats back now :-)). Emptiness is constant. Old habitual thoughts come and go but are diminishing. Occassional small reaction to wife but goes away quickly. Now watching and waiting for new results and life goes on. Living happens continuously. Ringing in both ears went away for a few days. Back now. Gratitude for Rick!

Ilona:
Thank you very much for sharing. I am delighted for you and would love to invite you to join LU community. There you will find many new friends and you can share and ask whatever you find interesting.

But before I can invite you, we usually give some questions and put the answers on my blog.  Would you like to answer them?



Gord:
I assume the questions/answers illustrate/initiate something/someone. Sounds ok. Let 'er rip.

Ilona:
Here they are :). Please answer when ready, in full.

1) Is there a 'me', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) in the experience, is there an experiencer? Is it body that experiences or body is the experienced?

3) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works.

4) How does it feel to see this?

5)How would you describe it to somebody who has never heard about this illusion but is curious about it.

6) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look? Can you describe the moment when seeing happened?


Thank you.


Gord:
1. Noticed an urge to formulate the "right" answer. Got calm and that passed. Where there was a me there is now a space. So, no me. What was there? What is the space? A memory? A habit? I dunno. As far as was there ever...that's hard to answer. From a living in the now perspective I don't care anymore. Logically it was a creation that has been let go of. Now we're getting into "what is real" territory. I'm outta my depth.

2. Sounds suspiciously like a trick question. Body is just there. Time is passing (apparantly). Events unfold. Interactions are important and fun.  There is ever-present awareness.

3. I can only spout back what I've read about this. Cut and paste. IMO there are theories that adequately explain it. Are they true? Does knowing the truth matter?

4. Freedom.

5. I have a new-found sense of freedom about the way I am experiencing my life. Most things that used to bother me, in many different areas of my life, now feel way less important.

6. Somewhere in your website and GG. The questions "who is observing?" and "how do you know that it's true?" were baffling and intriguing. The process of answering them seemed to have the greatest effect. Near the end of GG sureness emerged outta the ether. That's where thoughts come from by the way ;-)

Ilona:
Wonderful.

You sound like solid yes. I'm so delighted, that reading GG was that last push. I am honoured to be part of your journey.  And my friends that worked on the book will be very pleased to read about it.


Would it be ok with you if I post this on my blog, it may help somebody else with direction. I can use whichever name you prefer.


Lots of love to you.


Gord:

Without the robot life would move so much slower. Post at will. "Gord" is good as a name. Any label will do ;-)


Ilona:
Thanks Gord, appreciate that. And I'll get back to you about how to join the support and sharing groups.
Much love.