Tom Saw It Through A Dream

Tom:

where i am. .physically Germany, mentally... pretty down on all the dharma logic, believe that the "I" is a label applied to an ephemeral concept that exists only as a though.  i can't help thinking that my thinking is getting in the way of really internalizing this belief into direct knowledge / realization. how is that?
by the way.  thanks in advance!

Ilona:

Ok, believing that I is a label.
Let's look deeper into that so there is no belief here anymore.


Please examine closely the word I.
What does it point to? Is there anything in real world?


Please answer with full honesty and when you are 100% sure.  Take your time. :)

Tom:

i is a word and a thought pointing to the doer and experiencer of everything in my memory.  i know the argument that it is irrelevant, and superfluous and an invention- i even believe the argument, but the experience seems only intellectual to me.. not basic and gut-hitting.

Ilona:

Ok, Tom, let's look again. 

Thought I is pointing not to doer, but other thoughts about doer. There is no doer. 

Look again. Examine label "university". What does this label point to? Is there such thing as university in real life? There are buildings, students, books, classes, professors, are any of them university? Or is it just a word, that we use for communication, so we understand each other? 

Can you look now at word/ label I in the same way, what does it point to? 

Tom:

ok, we're on the same page.  your precision is good and helpful. you are right, when i examine the doer there are just stored thoughts about the doer, so, i is a thought about thoughts, understood.


your university analogy is clear...just a word...an agreement about a concept. 

Ilona:

Great! 

Next:

Have a look at how labelling works:

I breathe, rather than breathing happens

I digest- digestion happens, I run- running happens, etc. Can you see that thought I is just a word that in language we put in front of other words. 

There is no breather

There is no pisser,

There is no thinker 

There is no watcher. 

There is no observer, but all these are experiences happening in a moment. 

Now look inside and notice, what are the labels that you seem to identify with. Examine those. 

Tom:

..i know this teaching, again intellectually, using the passive form instead of the involving form. it seems to bring me closer but doesn't push me off the cliff. for example, some of the things in your list have a deeper element of volition associated with them: running as opposed to digestion.


when i focus on "I" i try to see what agendas might be there and see images of myself with subtitles such as:


mighty meditator
seen as exceptionally good human
superhuman
the right party in divorce
the good parent
the smart big brother
the enlightened partner
property owner
the "one" who did it


how is this?

Ilona:

Hm, sounds like you are a lot of things, but is there a you, really? 

What if I told you know that there is no self at all in real life. None, as in zero. 

Describe what comes up. 

Btw, do not worry; the shift is happening already with every question answered. It's also very tiny, won't even notice when exactly it will unfold. Just take the steps I'm asking you to and trust the process. 

Cool?

Tom:

very, very, very cool! i trust the process more than i trust myself! ;-)


I believe it when you tell me that there is zero self in real life. nevertheless, there is still this "feeling" that every experience is wrapped in a cellophane package of "I".  i can't see it, but it colours all of experience with this "I" Flavour and objectifies it. that reinforces the "I".


to answer your question directly: i believe it but don't know it or see it.  the purity of what i expect is tainted with the obviousness of subject and object ie: me | it

Ilona:

Time to rip that cellophane! 

Read this and then do it. 

Close your eyes. 

Find that which is always here. Notice the space, notice the awareness aware, breath and just stay with it. 

Notice how thoughts appear in the awareness and don't pay so much attention to what they say, but noticed it as a baffling noise, thoughts labelling whatever experience is noticed. Just never ending labelling. 

Notice that I is not anything else but just a passing by thought. Just a word, 

See that presence, being is impersonal, but thoughts make it apear to be so, now check if it's true: 

Is there a you thinking or just thoughts flowing by themselves without a thinker.  

I is a thought. 

Thought cannot think, it's just an expression of processes going on in the brain 

Notice that there is no noticed, but noticing happening.  

That there is no focuser, but focusing happening. 

That there is no one to see, but seeing it's happening all by itself effortlessly.  

Let me know what you find. 

Tom:

..A little over one hour sit under the moon. kept to your instruction pretty well of noticing thoughts appearing, noticed the labelling tendency, usually shortly after the label, noticed how the thoughts tended toward reinforcing some aspect of a self, not many unfamiliar thoughts, more like repeated patterns, future planning, stupid things which would great once this no-self business was in the bag.


Kept reinforcing / reintroducing the thought of the absence of an "I" or self and tried to "feel" that.  Sometimes that led to a growing intensity to "realize" it instead of just believing it.


One short exercise where i pictured my body on a moonlight cliff, stuffing pictures representing "I" thoughts from the past into a suitcase and shoving it into the gleaming ocean below.


I'm still here.


will head to bed but try to keep clearly on the goal.


thanks for your patience.

Ilona:

Ok, cool, 

So what is it that kept reinforcing, reintroducing thoughts of absence of I? 

Was that not just another thought appearing and disappearing?
All by itself, just like other thoughts? 

What is behind the "introduced?

No need to get rid of I thought, it's just a pattern of language! 

Instead look at what it really is- a thought. 

Does thought think? 

Tom:

VERY good question. Yes. i would usually automatically say "volition", meaning "I chose that as MY theme and I'm introducing that thought due to determined effort."  but in fact, yes, its just another thought, bubbling up from the abyss.


during the sit, the phrase / thought came up "thought does not think, it is just a thought bubbling up". this did not seem to provide a lot of traction though. sometimes i feel as though i can penetrate only so deep into a theme and then things get hazy and this seems to fit that pattern.


ok, i wasn't trying to "get rid" of the thought of "I Am" but used mental phrases of "There is no self" in an almost mantra-like way to keep the focus on the exercise.

Ilona:

Great! You are getting there. 

Now look at the feeling, is there a feeler, or are they all just passing by like thoughts? 

I am- is a clear sense of be-ing. One that always is here now. 

Thought does not think, yes!

So what is going on? 

Can you describe what you see?

Tom:

Guten   morgen :-)


I’m not sure which time zone you're in but my bod is in europe so there might be a lag in our conversations. doesn't mean the problem isn't being worked on.


so.. took a while to sleep as i was trying to keep the watching of the arising of thoughts and labels alive.
woke this morning and while still in the wake-up haze checked out the "I" and "self" status..still present but drilled down into the thoughts and tried to keep the awareness on their spontanoeus nature.


they definitely seem to be directed, orchestrated.  the base assumption has always been that "I" am the director. the drive to get this done.. habit? the universe working through this body-mind? the thoughts are too directed to be random so there is intelligence there so i am trying to focus on the qualities that they just keep on coming : out of my control and just happen.


as i woke i was working withe the mental acknowledgments:
in seeing , just the seen
in hearing jus the heard
in feeling just the felt etc.


it feels good and right, trying to take the "me" out of the equation of reality.  it feels as though i am waiting either for this sense of "I AM" to either dissolve or clarify in some way which eludes me still.


i am trying not to expect any great fireworks shift in perception...i feel as though maybe i am slowly eroding a mountain of habitual "I-ing"


question:
you wrote: I am- is a clear sense of be-ing. One that always is here now.


are you saying that so that I will understand what has to be seen clearly to eliminate that sense?


with much gratitude

Ilona:

Hi Tom, I'm in uk :)

Morning here too...

Sense of being is not gonna vanish. Nothing is gonna change. It already is as it is. 

What drops is the belief that I is the orchestrator.  

See, if you find out that Santa is not real in real life, then nothing changes, only belief drops. 

You can't find Santa, you can't find no- Santa, whatever is the label, there is no such thing as Santa. 

It's fiction. 

Same here: orchestrated is fiction. 

In seeing there is seen, seer and seeing - one. There are no separate parts. 

In hearing- hearer, heard and hearing- one, there are no separate parts.  

In orchestration.... What is there? 

Universe is working not trough, but as. It's expressing itself in different forms, not through different forms.  What do you see there? 

Tom:

great!  almost the same time!


just had a phenomenal sit.


maybe a shift.  lots of dharma type ideas coming up such as:


the I is just unnecessary flypaper hanging in the corner sticky ugly nothing i want to relate to.


i had the impression of attention as an ocean wave, continuously rolling, not breaking.. until the self felt impelled to label the data stream.. so keeping attention on that cusp, just before labelling happens seemed to be a good, if tricky, place to hang out.  the feeling of a comfortable, non-clinging continuity of experience seemed possible there.


Near the end of this sit thoughts of success started to arise.  This was seen but effort was needed to assure that it would not congeal into "my success". Definitely though, a feeling of the right direction of effort was felt as well as a general non-stickiness to the phenomena. Very pleasant.


the "I" is definitely still present, the "self" still has a strong heartbeat but i believe a little slower than yesterday.


i am not sure how much i will be communicating this weekend as my little place in the woods is offline but i intend to give this exercise my full attention the entire time.  so don't feel a slave to your pc on my account.


please know that i deeply appreciate your engagement so far.


cheers

.............................

you asked: In orchestration.... What is there?
     there is order and intelligence.. but i will allow that assumption to be just a thought about being "used to" experiencing the flow of events as something comprehensible and ordered.  clearly there are natural principles at work, perhaps order is just seeing patterns..

then you wrote / asked:

Universe is working not trough, but as. It's expressing itself in different forms, not through different forms.  What do you see there?

hmm .. dunno. obviously lots of sense objects, all with organizational mind-made labels attached to them.

in my last sit, as i mentioned, i was attempting to ride a perceptive wave and experience all sense inputs as just that, sort of at the "pre-labelling" phase of arising.

right track?

……………………

..coincidence?


sitting again, another looong peaceful sit.  things which normally would have been annoying, dogs barking, neighbours setting up outdoor stuff.. just interesting sounds.  an airplane flying overhead, stripped of labels or of attachment became a peaceful droning focus of contemplative awareness. really, really nice.


despite the recent experience of not wanting to sit and meditate for long stints.. last night's sit was long, focused and pleasant.  this morning as well  and just now....at least an hour each time...les and less "self" involvement, to hazard a hope, noticing phenomena and than at first consciously detaching then later just noticing the nature of the sounds or touch etc.


i would say that this is AT LEAST a right track if not THE right track.  will try not to consolidate these experiences into anything. will try to stay aware of "I" feeling / attachment. will try to remain objective.

Ilona:

I see, you have your special way to do it, cool, but seeing through illusion is nothing to do with meditation. Same like realising that Santa is not real has nothing to do with meditation. 

There is no self at all in real life, like there is no batman or pink elephant. 

Look through the window- is there a pink elephant? Is the no- pink elephant? 

This is where I like you to look now, 

What words are pointing to real things in life that exist and what point to fiction. 

I is fiction. 

Chair, table, monitor, body, tree, cat, cabin, sun is real. 

Tom is fiction.

Please exercise here and report when you are ready. 

Tom:

TOM IS FICTION!?!? How could you say that? ... just kidding.  I'm on it!
will report back.

………………………………………

Hello,
i hope that your conventional self had a nice weekend.


i hope that the pause in the action doesn't disturb you but i was offline. Not off the task at hand.


as to your point about not having to do with meditation: that is just how i "look" deeply.  it is not an altered state of mid but just a quiet place to examine my mind. if it is outside of the parameters of the method though, i will simply look, no problem.


i did the exercise as you prescribed. as before, the intellectual aspect of this is very firm. i "know" that there is not and never was an "I" or a "self" as some independent entity observing or controlling or mediating this reality.


there may have been a subtle shift, a deepening of this knowledge but no great "AH HA!" experience.  it seems to be a slight change of perspective. i will remain on this until i am 100% sure, i WILL get this done.


are there any markers that  I should be looking for that this knowledge is more than just intellectual?

Ilona:

Hi Tom, 

Great to see you back :)

Yes, shift it very subtle, no gongs, no angels singing, no bright lights in the eyes.  Just dropping of belief. 

Can you describe what you see. What is Tom? With full detail please.  

Tom:

..so I should ignore the gongs and angels.. ok ;-)


tom seems to be a habit of identification more than a concrete entity. a viewpoint which i have not yet managed to shake off. it is always as though "I" am looking, or "I" am hearing and therin is the "I" identification already.


when i focus on hearing, for example, i can listen to birds and the rush of distant traffic and "drop" the label-making habit so that perception is "riding the wave" of the sound at a "crest" BEFORE the label (bird or traffic) is applied. Nevertheless, it seems, always to be a "looking out" from a certain viewpoint.


The experience doesn't exactly emulate "in the seeing , just the seen" kind of description.  There is separation.


Does this help?

Ilona:

I'd like you to look from a little different angle at Tom. 

It's a character. A real character with likes and dislikes, but it's fictional. There is a story unfolding, tom is the hero in it, like batman. 

What do you see now?

Tom:

i see the character, the stories, the dramas, the story line. the intimate details are known. pictures of the character, from the past, typing now.  memories are just thoughts, pictures are thoughts too reinforcing the reality of the character...


trying to see the character as transparently "unreal" as i see batman. but "I" am still looking.


:-(

Ilona:

It's ok. 

Good, you see the character, nice. 

Now let’s go back to the "I". 

I is a thought. Thought does not think, is it true? 

Examine thinking with thinking. 

How does it happen, what influences it, where do thoughts come from? 

What do you see? 

Tom:

Clearly.. "I" is a thought.  It is also clear that thought does not think. the mechanism of how thoughts come about is unclear and probably for this exercise unimportant but one thought seems to condition another, to colour it.


But yes I is only a thought, the thought itself does not think.


When i try to follow your instruction of "Examine thinking with thinking." ..Thinking seems to stop, i focus in on the thought process and it is either held in abeyance or seems foggy, hazey impenetrable.

Ilona:

Ok, so we are clear on thought does not think. 

So tell me, who is focusing? Is there anything behind doing focusing? What is looking? 

Tom:

here's the tricky part.  i know the answer is that "no-one" is focusing, focusing is just happening, but it still feels as though focusing must be initiated by "something". all of my life the simple answer was that "I" was that something.


my body just went for a walk with the hounds.. during the walk while being assailed with thoughts of thought arising on its own, suddenly recollections of  a couple "past life regressions" popped into awareness. i compared the recollection of those experiences with some those which in this life I call mine. it is VERY VERY clear that there is not even the slightest difference in substantiality between those "past life" I's and the this life I's...so, all thought, nothing else very clearly seen.


the present experience, happening now, flowing by..is still objectified.  is this separation between me experiencing and experience just happening something that will suddenly appear or will it gradually wear away if seen in the light of this "no self" perspective?


is it expected that the perception of the flow of experience will no longer be encumbered with an "I"


thanks for putting up with me!


lessTom

…………………………………

.could that something which initiate be simply a "pattern" a habitual way of thoughts arising that i associate with me..

Ilona:

Your message made me smile ;)

LessTom. 

When you see that I is just a label and mind's function is to label experience, the thought I becomes empty. With that realisation, there is no more middle man attached to experience. Life is, things happen, they don't happen to you, but as you. 

Now look very closely at this and tell me, what comes up inside:

There is no self at all in real life. 

Check within, is it true? 

If not, what is the feeling there?

Tom:

that rings true. there is no self other than the thought label and the residue of decades of habit.. it is obviously so. the middle man function is also clear and clearly unnecessary.


the feeling which comes up upon that query is a little like a giddy freedom feeling...

Ilona:

Initiation happens as a result of subconscious processes. 

Itch and scratch kind of thing. Brain gets info through senses and makes decisions based on what is happening, that goes through filters of beliefs and labelling happens as result. 

Look at your dogs, what initiates their behaviour?

Tom:

Food!

Ilona:

Hahahahaha! 

Yumm

But they also feel love and express it freely. Without labelling. There are no worries in dogs head. 

Ok, how about a human? 

Oh yes, the feeling of freedom inside! It's great to know, that life is happening and relax as it works fine without a general manager of the universe. ;)

Tell me, what you see when you look at humans? 

Tom:

Hmm.. no idea how deeply a dog thinks or where the reaction stops.. obviously they have patterns which they follow.. far less complex and driven by strategy than a humans but there is thinking going on there.


People label.. build labels into templates and navigate their reality via those already digested templates of reaction.

humans.. self obsessed.. worried beings.. largely living out of sync with the present.. Planning for the future.. regretting the past...calculating advantage and disadvantage in millisecond tact.  Missing out on experience by filtering it or relying on the shortcut of stored reactions.

Ilona:

Yes, life for a human = suffering. All because of unexamined assumption that I is an entity. A soul. 

So are you through? Do you have any questions? 

Is everything crystal clear?

Tom:

i really can't say that i am. i would like to sit with this a while and get back to you. Examine it, live with it and deepen it.


if i have any questions, i hope you don't mind if i come back to you. but i will let you live your conventional life again and me mine.


Thank you for your kindness and efforts. if i can help you in any way please let me know without hesitation.

Ilona:

That is good idea to let it sink in. 

From what I see the shift has already happened, just need to let it unfold. There is nothing left to do, but relax and notice the obvious.  

Please feel free to ask anything at all and report back when it feels right. 

If there is feeling of stuckness, it's best to address it and work through rather than not. 

Tom:

i believe it when you tell me that there is zero self in real life. nevertheless, there is still this "feeling" that every experience is wrapped in a cellophane package of "I".=A

Ilona:

I see that you have been anchored in real world. Hihi, that is great! It may not seem like anything to you, but yes, this is a little shift. See, when you stop living in the mind, real world becomes more real, more intimate. That's all there is- life happening. 

So who/ what is experiencing the real world? Is there an experiencer? Does life need an experiencer to be present? 

Can you look deeply in real world, is there anyone controlling what is happening? Can you see that mind labels and thoughts like 'yes, it's me' are just thoughts passing by? And that too is happening by itself? 

Is it true that there is no controller?

Is it true, that life is just happening by itself? 

Answer please when you ready.  

Tom:

:-)


i is the invisible, untouchable security blanket wrapped tightly around this idea of self. my seeing is still through the weave of this blanket.  i know this but don't feel the detachment i'm expecting from the genuine realization of this obvious fact. 


I’m still working on it.  i do seem to feel a shift within which makes the mundane less important somehow.  Less able to cause me grief.


I’m trying to see whether this is a change in perspective or a relief after a few weeks of high everyday stress.

Ilona:

Hahaha! I is security blanket.... Hmmmm ....nope! 

The fear surrounding "I" is the security blanked. 

It's fear of exposing the fraud. 

I is not real and all your life you knew for certain that it is. 

So look from this angle and see what would be worst that could happen if I was exposed as a lie...

It is.   A lie.  

The shift is happening; it's not one moment, but a process lasting few days in time.  

Notice that.  

:)

Tom:

thanks, gotcha..i believe that a shift is underway. i am working on it and will look at it again more deeply as soon as I’m out of this Telco.


a report will follow

……………………………..

..ps..during my contemplations.. looking.. i have tried to see the "fear"  , "confusion" , hazy unclear ideas...as the camouflage hiding this self...no event such as could be described as a sudden breakthrough to clarity or a dissolution of the concept of an "I"

Ilona:

Clarify hazy ideas. Identify the fear. The fear is a feeling inside the body.  What is it protecting? 

Answer this: what would be lost if it was true, that there is no self at all.  

Look deeper and answer when ready. 

Tom:

just before bed last night i was applying your last instruction and giving myself suggestions to continue the investigation as i slept.


i woke at around 03:00 from a dream in which the following occurred:


i (and some others in the dream) were all carrying around oven trays with cakes in them.  mine had my name on it.  it was "I".  i had, in the dream, the very distinct knowledge that i understood clearly that the "I" is just a label pointing to nothing.


i realize that this is not how one should "investigate" , nevertheless the dream was profound and i believe is the result of a deeper internalization of this understanding.  I’m a pretty grounded person and as such don't ascribe much meaning to the literal aspects of dreams but the "knowledge" was palpable upon awakening and for me the salient point is that this "quest" is embedded in the midstream.


Parallel to my dream life :-) i am continuing to look at the "I" and chase the feelings the investigation churns up.
i feel as though i have "let something go" over the last few days.  Things are lighter, smoother, less jagged.  The vicissitudes of life seem interesting without "me" feeling as though i am being sucked into and controlled by them.

Ilona:

Awesome dream.
See, mind is resolving the confusion by itself :) there is no how it should be, it works in the way that it's best for you. And if this knowing comes from a dream, that is how it's delivered for you. 

Great! 

So I is a label. 

In waking life, what is the I that is looking at the I? If I is a label, can it look? Or looking happens by itself?

You are getting very close! :))

Tom:

Hi,
i agree that something is happening...there seems to be more space between experience and the sense of an I...


i don't know whether i adequately expressed the sense in the dream that "it was already my state" and that the "cake pan" with "me" in it was like a leftover which couldn't quite be dropped yet.  but the base sensation was that the knowledge was there and was the experience...


i is definitely a label.  the concept of everything happening by itself is not yet gut level.  it is understood but the hangover of over 50 years of leaning on the lie is still present although definitely attenuated.


:-)

Ilona:

You hangover word made me laugh. Lol. Yes, that's how it can be described :))

Can you look at Tom again and see what you find now. 

What is Tom, how it operates, is there a driver inside the body?

Tom:

no.  just driving

Ilona:

Rant about it, please, what is tom?

Tom:

at the moment...the body is working...so the attention given to the question is limited.  Nevertheless:


tom seems more transparent than before.  Less important. still seems to be the experiencer to a degree though despite my clearly seeing the now obvious fact that this can’t be.  while trying to delve into the feelings of fear / attachment to the idea of "me" yesterday, there were only subtle feelings to track.  Difficult to see.  Some pointing to a latent desire to "be seen as the 'morally right' person" in some old mental baggage situations.  this insight made me laugh to see how i was still churning through decades old themes and holding them as mine and being attached to some possible future judgement about them.  Then later .. the dream...

Ilona:

I can see that you are through!! Welcome to the flow! :)

Thank you very much for looking, it was a pleasure from my side to assist you.  

From now on liberation starts and all beliefs are gonna fall. Like dominoes..

Key is to inspect everything, acknowledge and release. When stuff comes up and it feels that something is not right, always look inside. There will be something that wants to hold on, especially the precious beliefs close to the heart. 

Well, it's a journey without driver, so Tom can relax and enjoy :)

I'm delighted for you. :))

Just for the end bit, what was that click, that pushed it through, what was that last push? 

Tom:

From my side i would not say yet that i am through but there is no impatience connected with this.  Perhaps it is the writing style of the inherent imprecision of communicating concepts but your confidence is not yet shared.  as before, i will take your advice and observe and let go.


to answer your "end bit" question.. the dream was very compelling, such a strong sense of knowing that the message was GOTTEN. Will keep on the reality check though.


i will check back occasionally and let you know how it progresses.


i thank you for your guidance and wisdom!  Your drive to help others is obvious and cherished.

Ilona:

I know there is still stuff to work out. 

But I see that the line has been crossed. :)

It helps to look at what doubt is, what's behind it, check there! 

Write to me until it's all clear. 

Deepening is gonna take some time, yes, until all beliefs are inspected and released. All I want to know is if you have seen it clearly, or not. 

Was there a self ever? 

Tom:

No there was never a self. Again my dreams were clearly pointing to a deep realization of no self. The knowledge is being internalized and the habits worn away.


This morning’s meditation was largely taken up with being present with all arising phenomena with the focus on everything just arising and passing away. no self, no I other than the labelling process...all sounds being just there requiring no intercession of a me.


It is still requires a conscious effort but is each time becoming easier which to is interpreted as  "less self" in the way.  it is becoming easier to take the less egoistic view that these thoughts, and the direction or tendency toward realizing no-self are just emerging from some depth beyond "me", no requiring "me".  so I’m trying to keep me out of the way.


thanks

Ilona:

Awesome, Tom, you made it through. :))

It's a bit like a hangover after realisation. It takes some time to release all that is left hanging in there without centre to attach. 

I'm delighted for you. Truly. It fills my heart with huge appreciation. Thank you. 

May I use it for my blog? It really helps people. Makes it easier for them to see. 

It's great to cover it from many angles and yours is valuable as it shows how it can also happen through a dream! Powerful stuff.  

Tom:

of course you can use it for your blog. it’s funny that the dreams played a role as they historically haven't done so in my life.


as before, i see the realizations which i have had to this point as only stepping stones.  the way all of this plays out interests me.  Observing reactions in stressful situations is always a very good base to measure progress in my experience. Things seem far less emotional at this point but there have been no real difficult tests as of yet.


i know that i am still capable of anger and other passions and so know that i am still tied to suffering. since this process began, however, there has been much less clinging and reaction to charged situations.  my meditation has been significantly deeper and clearer and the process just seems right and comfortable.


Thank you for your help and guidance again.  Don’t be surprised if my email address pops up occasionally with a report or two.


Stay well

Ilona:

You are most welcome, Tom. Write to me any time you feel like. I'm loving getting emails from my free friends. 

:)))

Burning Jessica

July 18
Jessica:
thank you so much for your blog!!!!

Ilona:
Thank you Jessica. Lovely to meet you.

Jessica:
Hi Ilona, I am super exhausted and hope to sleep soon, but I really want to work with you. I feel I am so close. I have been reading your blog over the past couple days, something huge happened the first night I read it-- I had this period of awe and just seeing things happening without "me". I read it over and over, your second letter to Paul. It was like something popped but not all the way because it feels like doubt and confusion have come after.

After so long of searching and doing inquiries and tearing my heart out, struggling, trying to surrender, wracking my brain, thrashing about emotionally intellectually blah blah blah --how can it be so simple???!!! I noticed it helps before I go back to reading or writing to just jot down any expectations or assumptions I have about liberation. I don't even inquire into them, just jot them down. And I keep reading your blog and writing on my own, I started answering the questions you were asking and now when I write I imagine I am writing to you. Will you help me?

Ilona:
of course my dear, I’ll help you.
so what have you got so far?

………………………………………………………

Here I get 10 pages of processing. So I just cut it out, personal stuff.

………………………………………………………

Ilona:
Ok ok I see you are on fire!!
Chill. All good, just need to relax a bit and focus. I'll be asking some questions and you really need to answer them as precisely as you can with 100% honesty. We will get through this once and for all. Agreed?

First questions:
Where do thoughts come from? Can you control them? Can you stop them in the middle? If you were an owner of mind, that would be possible, right?

Write to me what you notice about thoughts. It helps if you close your eyes for a bit, find that which is here always, feeling of being, " I am" and notice how the thoughts label experience.
See how feeling comes up and labelling follows, sound comes up and labelling follows.

So write to me what you see here.

Jessica:
Thank You!!!! Ok- I want to be able to focus and really look and I am exhausted-- haven't slept much that experience 2 days ago and it's almost 4am for me. I will take this in and really look and get back to you first thing tomorrow for me.

Ilona:
Waking up has that effect, can't sleep much.  it's ok. It's already happening, intensity is here, intention too, freedom is just a few questions away.
Write to me and we will untangle this mess together.

Jessica:
Where do thoughts come from?
I get the thought that I’m unable to know, or not allowed to know for some reason. Haha, that’s the thought that seems to prevail here.. Kind of like a kid before they know where babies come from. When I look I get this sense as though I am a child in the universe, not smart enough or capable of seeing the answer. Then there’s the thought that I am just being difficult and I should answer like everyone else. That thoughts arise out of nowhere. Then the thought: what if there’s something I’m missing?

When I sit still, thoughts seem to come from another thought. Then I get the thought that the first thought was I… maybe I heard that somewhere before, and it makes sense. When I ask myself where do thoughts come from— I don’t know. Where are thoughts actually in the first place? I can find a thought and still it somehow seems partially hidden from me. I can find the word “thought” in my mind and then I can find images and even I can hear the word pronounced in my mind. “In my mind”… hmmmm. I can find the thought that mind is inside my head. Is it really?
I notice breathing and the label of breathing.

It doesn’t seem that I can control them, especially since I don’t know what my next thought will be. But there is this sense or belief that I can choose or direct them somehow. I can be more interested in one thing and not the other, shift direction, and sometimes that seems to work. Also, there’s this sense that I am choosing all my thoughts, even ones that suck and feel stressful… like there’s 2 selves.. Like a conscious and an unconscious self and they seem to be in a kind of conflict. Seem… ugh, I’m thinking this is just a story and I’m getting way off track. I’ve seen how other people get this so clear with concise answers. But there’s just this feeling that I’m missing something –and that to just agree that that thoughts come from nowhere just because I can’t find where seems somehow…. It feels like I’m agreeing that the earth is flat because I have no evidence otherwise. Well, funny enough, the other way around –to believe that there is a self and that thoughts come from somewhere when I haven’t seen it is nice and presumptuous as well. I'm sorry, I'm not trying to be difficult. I will sit and look longer, but this is where I'm at so far.
 
It also feels like there’s a “me” or a conscious thing on one end of a point of attention that’s giving focus to one thought or another, caring about or believing in certain thoughts over others. Giving power or meaning to certain thoughts over others.

Ilona:
Ok, slow down, all good, but, please, be more precise. When you type, before sending delete all that is unnecessary. Just read through what you wrote and leave only that which you are 100% sure of.

Thoughts come from nowhere.
Yes.
They appear in space of awareness and disappear to nowhere.

We will be taking small steps and your answers need to be clear. As long as they are not clear, stay there until they are, no rush at all.

Of course it feels that there is a you in there! You have been used to this since you remember!

Now I want you to consider this seriously.

There is no separate self at all in real life. Zero. None at all.

Look inside and register feelings when you think this thought.

Is there fear, uneasiness, frustration?
Describe what you see when you are ready.

Do not worry about anything else for now, just do this little step.

Jessica:
Ok- I hope this is condensed enough, should I put less?
Excitement. Blank. Then images of me being ripped apart, flattened, taken away by a current, swept away. Sad. Thoughts of mother, father. Images of my family blown away like sand or swept away by a river. Tears. Then my tears seem fake. Laughing. Then sad again feels more real. Sad, relief, lost, doubt, confusion, frustration, wavering between excitement and fear. Sensation of ringing through my body

Ilona:
All good.

I want you to look closer at fear. Can you see that it's just a mechanism of protection?
Can you look behind fear and see what's there?

Can you look at all this cocktail of feelings and just let them be? Notice that they appear and disappear to nowhere just like thoughts. All by themselves without anyone driving them.

Can you see how feelings appear and labelling kicks in by itself?

Jessica:
I can just look at this cocktail of feelings and thoughts and just let them to be, YES! That seems to be the thing I can do, or the thing that is happening.
I see how sensations appear and immediately a label, or sometimes it seems a thought and then a sensation..? it feels messy! Label: messy and disorganized. Struggle to focus. When I try to locate the fear or look closer it seems to slip away or just turn into a bunch of thoughts. Frustration. Impatient Lots of stuff coming up. I’ll keep writing out my thoughts and see what else I can find.

Ilona:
Good stuff, you see how this works, experience on sensory level + labelling of mind.

Don't look into content of thoughts, just thoughts as containers of content.
All will become clearer as we go through this process.

Ok, What happens, if you let this thought in:

There is no separate self at all in real life. Zero. Just life flowing freely.

What's happening inside?

Jessica:
Ok- (just in case) 2 things came up when I tried to pinpoint what the fear was protecting.
#1 was a sense of control, a thought of having control+ familiar sensation.
#2 was this thought about my mother. Some weird loyalty to my mother --like believing in her because I love her. Maybe that is weird and way off base-- is that the content? The part not to look into?

 <<There is no separate self at all in real life. Zero. Just life flowing freely.>>
When I sit with this I feel a sort of split. One part feels to reject it, frustration. Thought that I don’t get it, blank, unable to grasp it.. I’ve heard it before and it’s just words.
Then underneath that, or along with that I feel a ringing in my body. Sensations. Labels: pain, buzzing, ringing, pressure, tension, confusion.
Also, images of people, planets, rivers…life moving. A bigger picture, kind of like a generic national geographic montage.

and an uncomfortable feeling- label: being tiny and lost. Image: a leaf blowing in the wind.

Ilona:
What feels that split? It's just a feeling + labelling. There is nobody separate from life feeling this. It's what is felt, feeling and feeler in one as one.

All these feelings are happening by themselves to no one.

So is it true, that here is no self at all?

Jessica:
Haha yeah, just feeling and labelling. Duh. Sensation and thought + label: frustration! Ahhhhh! Sensation and thought + label: I’m failing. I will fail at answering this question! But where is the one that will fail? There is the label: failing, and the thought of “I”… but can only find “I” pointing to other thoughts and sensations. No I here in the present moment. There is the persistent thought+ sensation: being the one looking for this “I” in this moment and not finding it. Where is the one looking? Thoughts that it has to be hard, that “I” am too stupid to get this, that this is just another trick, that I am just replacing one belief with another. All thoughts, still can’t pin point a me here now, and yet, still urge to try and do so. Fear of giving up? Why can’t I just surrender? Frustration!!!! Label: discouraged. Label: I suck, I'm not doing this right. Staying with the sensation of frustration now... feels like more ringing in my body

Ilona:
Frustration just is. Look behind. What is behind frustration?
Is there a feeler?

Jessica:
behind the label of frustration, another label: fear. Fear of not getting this. behind that? just sensation of intense ringing in the body. Is there a feeler? there is the label. the sensation. the body. can't find a feeler. the thought that the body is feeling it... is the body feeling it or is feeling just happening and the body is just happening. How could this sensation be felt without the body?

Ilona:
Ok, good good. Fear is feeling and it is felt clearly. Can you see that it's a protection mechanism, working perfectly to protect something. Can you examine it closer?
Is there anything that needs to be protected?

Jessica:
this feels like a partial guess. Like I'm not 100% sure. So far it seems to protect the belief of me as a separate self. The thought that I am part of this body. The body being the feeler. Without the body how would I feel or experience anything. Fear says I would cease to be...

Ilona:
Let's carry on tomorrow. Let this sink in. Relax for a bit, maybe go for a walk. It helps to be in nature and just notice totality of all that is.
Do you have a pet? If so, watch how he operates. See if human is different then animal.
You've done well today and we are certainly getting closer.  the shift is already happening. Just notice the obvious.
Much love.

Jessica:
I'll take some time outside and I will write more as it is only afternoon for me. Thank you so much!
And I will try to relax and let it sink in!
So much excitement.

July 20th
Ilona:
Yes! The fear says that 'I' would be lost. Of course! Only there is no I as a separate entity, there never was. Can you look behind this fear, what is there?

Body, brain exists. Feelings, sensations, emotions are. But are they happening to anyone? Or are they just happening as reaction to environment.
Yes, there would nor be hearing, touching, smelling without body. But does body need a feeler? Is there a feeler in a dog? How about fish?
Aren't animals biological machines? Is human body different? Brain is more evolved, yes, but does that change anything? Does that make a human own life?

Just answer these question precisely

Jessica:
If there is no I how can there be anything behind the fear? If there is no I to feel afraid? Trying to look at the fear and unable to focus. Ahhhh! I don't have a precise answer-- I feel like the belief in mental confusion is holding me back. How can I be confused if there is no I to be confused? So much frustration right now and feeling stuck.

I will sit longer with this but since we started talking I struggle with writing or finding things. Like I am trying to be precise and not just trusting what comes up. Everything seems harder and I start to struggle and get nowhere.
And when I look to find the I that is struggling I don't find it. I do find the label I and sensations. There is also a thought that I'm confused, something is hidden from me. If I break that down there is the thought of confusion and sensations, and the thought of something being hidden and images and sensations. Confusion is happening(or belief in confusion), but no I. Frustration happening.

Ilona:
Ok, the difficulty to write comes from starting to think for yourself, not just letting any thoughts out, but finding the right ones. Of course it's difficult, but it's a start. It will get easier.
The point of writing precise is checking in what feels true. 100% true. That is not an easy task, but we have time, no rush. It's more important to answer it precise, than fast without thinking.

Fear is felt in the body, a sensation, feeling, knot in a stomach, animals feel fear too... So it's not bound to I, it is a real feeling.
It's like a security system.
Can you see?

Question is, what needs to be protected? If there is no I, there is nothing to protect. Yes.

How about other questions that I asked in previous message. Can you answer them, please.

Don't make it too difficult, it's not really, write what feels right, that's all.

Jessica:
<<Body, brain exists. Feelings, sensations, emotions are. But are they happening to anyone? Or are they just happening as reaction to environment. >>
Seems like they are just happening.
<<Yes, there would nor be hearing, touching, smelling without body. But does body need a feeler? Is there a feeler in a dog? How about fish? >>
I find a thought of a dog or a fish with a soul or something. But I can’t find that it’s true.
<<Aren't animals biological machines? Is human body different? Brain is more evolved, yes, but does that change anything? Does that make a human own life? >>
No, that doesn’t make human own life

Ilona:
Great! We are moving forward.
So are we clear, that sensations, feelings are happening, but they are not happening to anyone. Labelling is happening all by itself too, including thoughts of I and self.

Can you now look straight at the real possibility, that there is no self at all. What comes up?

Jessica:
Sensations are felt in the body and there is a thought of an additional feeler—inside the body… like 3rd generation, feeling the sensations. Where is this additional feeler. I can only find the thought of a soul or some ethereal entity.
Ok- looking at the possibility that there is no self at all...
So many things come up. Sometimes relief. Sensations in my chest. Thoughts/sensations labelled doubt frustration
Ringing through my body. heightened alertness
thoughts and sensations that there is a hidden self lingering where "I" can't see it. That there really is a self doing the watching and looking and now believing a new thing
....a feeling in the body with the label self


it's hard to stay with just that thought-- that there is no self at all. Anger and frustrations and distracting thoughts about not getting this, about doubt, about not doing this right arise and move away from just simply looking at that possibility
so much anger and frustration and doubt

Ilona:
Intensity is necessary, sometimes it's the breaking point.

Look, there is really no self. All these feelings are just happening by themselves and feeling, felt and feeler are one, nothing is separate.

Just let them feelings pass by, have a peek behind, is there anything directing that flow?

So yes, there is no watcher, no observer, no feeler, just life flowing freely in the now.

You can not see, seeing happens. It's happening right now, just notice....

Jessica:
I can't find anything directing the flow, no
so much sensation/thought labelled confusion and frustration
yes, seeing is happening
And when I look for the I (or when looking happens) what is here is just a label I attached to thoughts and sensation. So if I is just a thought how can a thought see? How can a thought do anything? It is just a thought and has no power to act on it's own. It can only just be a thought. So "I" cannot see, think, feel, or do anything but just exist as a thought

this is clear, there's just this feeling of missing something, of not completely knowing this, of doubt. Of slipping back into believing and acting as though I exist.

I saw it a few nights ago when I was reading your blog (Paul). It felt especially clear with the looking-- looking was just happening, no looker. Everything for that night was like that. Sensations happening, Thoughts happening. Then wake up next day and old habits happening, believing in the "I" happening, wanting a huge profound explosive change happening. Feeling impatient happening. Seems like I get it, just not as clearly and as completely as the desire that is happening now is pointing to. A feeling of wanting to be so clear and free and completely awake is happening. But what does it matter if there's no one to be completely awake? Ahhhhh!

Ilona:
Yes! It's right here, seeing is happening. What is described here is that. !!
Clarity comes, nothing needs to be done or can be done.
One thing: shift is very subtle, you may not recognise it, I can see from your writing- is obvious that it's happening.

Relax now, let it sink in. No big boom, no fireworks, no angels singing, just a drop of belief.

If you believe in Santa and then you see that it's your dad, there is no boom, just realisation that Santa is not real. Same here, just a drop of belief.

So answer me this:
What is Jessica?
How does she operate, what makes decisions? Is there a driver for Jessica?

You are doing soo well  not much left, stay with it.

Jessica:
What is Jessica. Jessica is a label for a story, collection of thoughts images, memories, sensations associated with this body. Jessica is a word, a label, a thought so Jessica cannot operate or make decisions. How can a thought make decisions or operate in the world? There’s a story that Jessica owns this body or is part of this body. Jessica does not own this body, how can a label own anything?
How does she operate?

Jessica does not operate, other than just existing as a word/label that points to a thought or a story of “Jessica” which includes this body. Since Jessica is just a label Jessica does not do anything.

Does the word “run” actually run? Or do anything else for that matter? Same thing with Jessica, it just points to a story. But running does happen, Jessica does not. Belief in Jessica happens…. body living happens...

What makes decisions? Nothing makes decisions. The story of Jessica making a decision happens. The feeling of making decisions happens and the "I" thought attaches. Is there a driver? No. Not a separate driver other than life.

Ilona:
Cool. Now look a step closer:

There is a story, story is real. Jessica is a character in the story. Fictional character, but real fiction. She is playing out the role perfectly.
Can you see her this way?

Jessica:
I can see the story of Jessica. Like Santa. I can look at this life and see that there's a story unfolding.

Ilona:
So is there a self in real life at all?

Jessica:
no

Ilona:
What is real?

Jessica:
life. now. ....the words on the screen. the keyboard. Thoughts happening now, sensations. sounds. whatever is happening now. whatever can be found here now.

Ilona:
Woo hooo!!!! Yes!
How is feeling inside?

What was that last push? What was that made "you" disappear and seeing happen?
Please rant about it.   now I want to hear everything that comes up! I love clarity of fresh seeing. Please share :))

Jessica:
Actually, pretty tired and in a mild and pleasant way the feeling of not giving a fuck. Thoughts of needing to do more, go further, fear of slipping or missing something bubble up....
Ok! I will write more and answer tomorrow.
I'm in bed and just letting everything be. it's so nice

Ilona:
Good night, Jessica.  I'll look forward to your message.
Lots of love.

Jessica:
thank you
thank you so much

Ilona:
You are most welcome! I appreciate you contacting me so much.

............

Ilona:
How is it going today, Jessica?

Jessica:
good. just lying in bed still

llona:
Nice. So the searching dropped? All clear?

Jessica:
No, it still feels like there’s more to do or a ways to go. I get stuck when I write to you, like it doesn’t flow because I get caught up with the idea of being concise and feel blocked and frustrated. Even now when it's not so important. I understand why it’s important though—and I see that it helped me to just answer the questions and not get sidetracked. And how it helped me to see that I already saw it and not get tangled up in all the feelings of doubt and other stall tactics.

I think I just need to keep writing more on my own. Clean up some more. Yesterday it helped to write out my expectations and assumptions about liberation and to question thoughts like "I'm confused" so I could see that confusion was just a thought/sensation happening or appearing and no "I". Last night and this morning it felt good to just be, no searching. Now there’s identifying with the confusion and frustration and impatience again though…. the desire to feel completely clear, to be free of this belief in self. Seems like it's still lurking in the fog or there out of habit. Maybe I should question that there's any fog... this habit in believing in confusion...

any suggestions?

There's these thoughts and sensations of frustration and confusion fear and doubt that are coming like waves. Maybe it's just old habit on it's way out.
How was it for you when you saw it? Did you feel done?

Ilona:
I did not feel done for a few days, but I knew for sure, that there is no self. It takes time to settle, yes, so just keep writing.
The clarity grows, when beliefs fall.
Observe what is habit itself. How does it work? It's a bit like hangover... after seeing through illusion itself, old patterns are still there to be inspected and released. Work further till it's clear. Write out everything that feels true. Trust it. Just keep noticing the obvious.

Let's talk more tomorrow.


Jessica:
yes, please. Thank you!!!!

Ilona:

Jess, can you let me know if I can help any more and if it's cool with you to put this on my blog
Much love.

Jessica:
Hi- yes, sure, go ahead and put it on your blog. Can you take any really personal stuff out --name... sorry I wrote my name in there a million times! I'm still processing stuff. Feels like there's more to be done... Sometimes the realization seems to disappear or to be unavailable and lots of unconscious old perspective going on, then thoughts of frustration.... Today has been busy so I'm waiting for time to sit and write out more... to look at the expectations and other beliefs...There's a thought about wanting more clarity... You asked me to observe what habit is and how it works and I'd still like to get back to you on that later today or tomorrow if that's ok. Thank you so much for your blog and all of your help and feedback.

July 23

Jessica:
Hi Ilona, Thanks again for all of your support. I read your correspondence with Paul to a friend last night and things still lit up, sensations and thoughts of aha still…. Does that mean something is missing? There’s this strong thought of Jed Mckenna saying FURTHER!

This is what is coming up today: Why does it still seem like there’s a me? Seeming happens. When I look there’s just the thought and the sensation…. And yet sometimes the sensation of believing happens, and the mind tells a story of being stuck, of not getting it. Old beliefs of not doing something right are so intense. The realization seems lost sometimes… Does this mean it hasn’t been seen completely? Can that happen? What is in the way of complete clarity? Assumptions about what it will be like? Belief in thoughts of confusion? When not paying attention I go right back into old thinking habits –or old thinking habits attached to the “I” thought seem to take 

You asked me to look at habit—what is habit, how does it work? It appears to be a repeated pattern of thought and sensation and response that is attached to the “I” thought. Thoughts of wanting clarity arise attached to the “I” thought so it appears that “I” am thinking these thoughts, and these thoughts come with sensations labeled confusion and frustration. So not only is the thought of confusion believed but it seems that there’s a “me” who is confused. A “me” who wants help, who wants clarity. It helped to question the thought, “I’m confused”. I’m confused, is that true? Where is the one who is confused? Looking closer at the thought “confused” on it’s own was interesting, when believed there is a whole world of seemingly personal feeling and images— but where is confused right now other than a thought? How can confused be real? There’s no confusion happening in this moment other than

Thoughts arise that something is missing, that “I” haven’t done it completely, that there’s more to clean up. Beliefs and assumptions are blocking “me”. The urge to seek is still happening. Ilona, when you saw that you weren’t the doer, that there was no doer was it just clear and done right then? The sense of doership is still so strong. Waking up in the morning and there are loads of “I” thoughts and sensations. What is in the way of complete clarity? Is it just a matter of bringing consciousness to unconscious patterns, Just stop and see that there is no self over and over? Sometimes the sensations and thoughts are so strong and I get caught up and believe in confusion and doubt happening to s self. Can I find the one wanting complete clarity? Sigh… no. Can I find the one that is sighing about this? Haha no. Can I find the one frustrated and doubting? Nope! Can I find the one who feels ashamed of being such a stubborn idiot? …no. So it seems that this is just a habit… the seeking more clarity. The obsession with being done.

Ahhh, what could be more clear? There is NO ONE feeling/thinking/doing all this shit so it doesn’t matter! Right? Is this just an inability to accept the truth? Is resistance just happening?

Ilona:
Jessica, clean up is a process, it takes time. Doubts will keep arising until ALL of them are inspected, recognised and cleared. For me it was about a couple of months. So just trust the process.

No, there is no you doing any of it, it's just happening. Including the doubt and confusion. It will clear.

It's a bit like hangover. Or like whe somebody looses an arm, they can still feel it for a while. Brain keeps referring to the thought 'i' but has been knocked out. So it's looking for it and keeps bringing stuff up to confirm that there is the 'i'
until it's all clear.

Seeing through illusion knocks the core, then it all starts to fall like dominoes.

Hold on to nothing and it will be least painful way to finish the mess.

Much love.

Jessica:
Thank you, Ilona! I love what you wrote to Paul: <<What is behind feeling " trying"?
"I am trying too hard." is a thought effortlessly appearing. >> Haha. Duh

Thank you thank you thank you.

Ilona:
No worries. Just watch out for traps. Always look inside. It will become clear in time.