Jonatan
7/18/13
Hey Ilona
Thanks again for your quick response yesterday on facebook - really appreciate it! :)
I really want to end the search, so tired of it..
After your last message I had an interesting reaction.. Part of me was excited, but another part was deeply scared.. Scared of loosing yoga and freediving, because I might not "need" it, if I find peace.. On top of that, with your sentence of ending the search, I found that I was scared of being disappointed.. I've felt some times in my life I would finally find peace, and ended up deeply disappointed, cus nothin' happend.. I guess nothin' should "happen", but.. Well.. I don't know.. Just don't know how and what to do..
Lately I've been very positive and happy, but I haven't "shifted" yet, when do you know anyway?
Hope it's not to confusing.. Just my current thoughts.
Thanks again
Best regards,
Jonatan
Ilona
7/19/13
Hi Jonatan,
Thank you for email.
I know what you mean, there is excitement and fear of not knowing...
Ok, we can start by examining all your expectations, look them all up and bring them here..
Make a list of what you expect that awakening is?
What do you want to gain from awakening?
What you do not want it to be?
How do you imagine that it should happen?
When you write all them down, take another look, spend more time and dig out subtle, secret expectations.
The more you can catch now, the easier it will be further on the journey. It's a big task, I know, remember, honesty is the key here in this work.
Sending love.
Jonatan
7/20/13
Hey there Ilona and thanks a bunch for response! :)
So I've written it all down, looked it over, started over and gave it a lot of thinking, feel like I can't get more out now..
1) - I guess I've seen awakening as a big thing, a big bang-realization of some sort, which you needed to "earn". Startin' to see it might not be..
- Most of all - Freedom! Freedom from all the blattering of thoughts, feelings, identification with your body etc, not necessarily an absence of these, but true understanding that I'm not my feelings, thoughts or body.
- A regaining of my free will, freeing from life-long illusions of self and "me" as Jonatan. A oneness with all and neverending bliss and awareness, and also a revelation of my "true" purpose in this life, or something, which sounds a bit weird just typing it.
- The end of problems, suffering, a realization that reveals that life and everything that comes with it, is perfect! The start of a perfect life, or something like that.. hmm.. To truly understand what life, love, death and everything is all about - like an all-knower.. Sounds pretty weird now as well..
- "Like a blind that can suddenly see for the first time and everything for him changes, but the world haven't changed"
2) - I want to gain freedom from my thought, feelings and identification with my body. To gain freedom to do what is truly right for me, and not what I've been told, or keep telling myself is real, to know "me".
- Want to gain happiness, peace, new form of energy to share, but deeply also just wanna learn if enlightenment is real, does it really exist or am I just finding myself in another illusion?
- To feel "alive" and present, to just be here, not needing to be heading anywhere, but knowing I can do it for the good of others! To be able to live life to the fullest and being completely authentic, and on that account help others to see, and do the same! I'm afraid that I might also seek recognizion on that account, that's also why I want to let go of my ego, cus I'm sick of being controlled, not knowing if it's me or the ego speaking! Guess I thought awakening would make me special, to be "better" than others, which I know is ridiculous, but it's still in there.
- To be happy!
3) - Yesterday I was afraid to loose freediving and Ashtanga Yoga, but now I realize, as you said the other day, that yoga is not a means of awakening, and realizing that, I don't see it as a means of searching anymore, but rather an interest.. I know it will never give me the peace I've been searching for, so that fear seems to have dissipated now. Still there might be a small amount of fear to loose, since I see so much beauty in it!
- Though, I am afraid that this will be another disappointment, cus I've made awakening up to be such a big thing, that this seems to simple to be true - having a hard time to believe it I guess.. Afraid to have to keep searching (also cus I know it's futile, but don't know how to end it), cus I so want to now what enlightenment is, and why I'm drawn to it, so scared that it's not what I hope, but just another illusion! :/
4) - Like I said earlier, I've always seen it as some kind of personal Big Bang, a radical change and a vision of some sort to "close the deal", or something like that - hah!
- Guess I imagined it to happen when I have "earned" it, after a looooooong search and dedicated practice of some sort and when I least expect it, at the brim of giving up and BAMM.. I'm just starting to understand that it's probably not like that, it's just the expectations from all the books and stories I've read..
Is it really is just a story I've made up and still holding on to? Blattered by all others expectations, intertwined by my own or something like that.
Felt like this was my most honest reflections, I hope it is..
Wish you the best and thanks, :)
Oh, and an add to question 2. Guess I've always thought that by waking up everything is possible, to be superhuman and do amazing things - again a way to give myself recognition.. hmm...
...............
Sorry to make another add, but realized my biggest fear, really is to loose "me", of all the interests in learning about myself, body, life etc.. A fear or contentment maybe, that I won't need to explore more, no need for yoga, freediving, education, reading or anything, since I don't "need" it.. Fear of loosing all I've come to love, I reckon.. Suddenly struck me.. Like I expect awakening to make me a lazy monk just sitting in a cave not needing anything.. Fear of loosing interest in travelling and everything else.. Hope you understand!
Thanks again.. Freaked me out a bit..
Jonatan
Ilona
7/20/13
Hey Jonatan, thank you very much for taking time to answer this and for your honesty. I'm going to comment below.
1) - I guess I've seen awakening as a big thing, a big bang-realization of some sort, which you needed to "earn". Startin' to see it might not be..
One thing you can be sure of it's not what you expect so all and any expectation are what stands in the way of seeing things as they are. Expectations are like lenses that try to fit what is into a frame of understanding. It's not going to work, so it's best to leave them all aside.
awakening is more like drop of belief, rather then gaining an insight.
It's pretty much like when kid believes in Santa and one day he finds out that there is no Santa, it was a lie, a fairy tale, there never was a Santa, neither before nor ever will be. When we believe something it may appear real, till we see that it was just a belief. So it's not a big boom, more like puff. Don't need to earn that.
- Most of all - Freedom! Freedom from all the blattering of thoughts, feelings, identification with your body etc, not necessarily an absence of these, but true understanding that I'm not my feelings, thoughts or body.
Nice, yes.
- A regaining of my free will, freeing from life-long illusions of self and "me" as Jonatan. A oneness with all and neverending bliss and awareness, and also a revelation of my "true" purpose in this life, or something, which sounds a bit weird just typing it.
Yes, very weird.
- The end of problems, suffering, a realization that reveals that life and everything that comes with it, is perfect! The start of a perfect life, or something like that.. hmm.. To truly understand what life, love, death and everything is all about - like an all-knower.. Sounds pretty weird now as well..
Kind of normal expectation, but it's too, not what happens.
Everything is perfect already. It's a matter of noticing.
- "Like a blind that can suddenly see for the first time and everything for him changes, but the world haven't changed"
Yes, yes, a shift in perception. Nothing changes, but it is seen differently.
2) - I want to gain freedom from my thought, feelings and identification with my body. To gain freedom to do what is truly right for me, and not what I've been told, or keep telling myself is real, to know "me".
Quite the opposite.
There is freedom from my, me and mine.
- Want to gain happiness, peace, new form of energy to share, but deeply also just wanna learn if enlightenment is real, does it really exist or am I just finding myself in another illusion?
You will go to find out if the I that can get enlightened exists ;)
- To feel "alive" and present, to just be here, not needing to be heading anywhere, but knowing I can do it for the good of others! To be able to live life to the fullest and being completely authentic, and on that account help others to see, and do the same! I'm afraid that I might also seek recognizion on that account, that's also why I want to let go of my ego, cus I'm sick of being controlled, not knowing if it's me or the ego speaking! Guess I thought awakening would make me special, to be "better" than others, which I know is ridiculous, but it's still in there.
Haha, sweet. Only there is no ego.
3) - Yesterday I was afraid to loose freediving and Ashtanga Yoga, but now I realize, as you said the other day, that yoga is not a means of awakening, and realizing that, I don't see it as a means of searching anymore, but rather an interest.. I know it will never give me the peace I've been searching for, so that fear seems to have dissipated now. Still there might be a small amount of fear to loose, since I see so much beauty in it!
Don't worry, what is true does not disappear. You can only loose that which is not serving you,
- Though, I am afraid that this will be another disappointment, cus I've made awakening up to be such a big thing, that this seems to simple to be true - having a hard time to believe it I guess.. Afraid to have to keep searching (also cus I know it's futile, but don't know how to end it), cus I so want to now what enlightenment is, and why I'm drawn to it, so scared that it's not what I hope, but just another illusion! :/
I had the same fear too. And no it's not what you hope. It's something different.
4) - Like I said earlier, I've always seen it as some kind of personal Big Bang, a radical change and a vision of some sort to "close the deal", or something like that - hah!
Yes. But it's not just an end it's a beginning too.
- Guess I imagined it to happen when I have "earned" it, after a looooooong search and dedicated practice of some sort and when I least expect it, at the brim of giving up and BAMM.. I'm just starting to understand that it's probably not like that, it's just the expectations from all the books and stories I've read..
You just need to be ready to look, that's all.
Oh, and an add to question 2. Guess I've always thought that by waking up everything is possible, to be superhuman and do amazing things - again a way to give myself recognition.. hmm...
Good one!! Hahaha
It's actually very ordinary. And it's not a loss..
Sorry to make another add, but realized my biggest fear, really is to loose "me", of all the interests in learning about myself, body, life etc.. A fear or contentment maybe, that I won't need to explore more, no need for yoga, freediving, education, reading or anything, since I don't "need" it.. Fear of loosing all I've come to love, I reckon.. Suddenly struck me.. Like I expect awakening to make me a lazy monk just sitting in a cave not needing anything.. Fear of loosing interest in travelling and everything else.. Hope you understand!
Thanks again.. Freaked me out a bit..
Yes, I understand, it's only a fear. How can you loose something that does not exist? It's not possible.
Imagine you are holding a melon in between your hands. Close your eyes and feel it. Smell it, weight it, experience it as fully as you can. For a minute just hold the melon.
When you open your eyes, what happened to the melon?
Write to me what triggered biggest reaction.
And if you are ready to take the next step. That means all your expectations got to be left behind, from now on it is best to stop reading, watching videos on the subject and look in your own experience describing it in your own words as you see it. You are going to take a fresh look at what is already obvious.
Sending love.
Jonatan
7/22/13
Hey Ilona - Hope you had a great day yesterday!
Many of the things you've answered I heard in some context before, but very nice just to clarify, cus my beliefs and expectations has been many, but a relief getting rid of them!
I was mostly surprised though by the fact that there's no ego.. I thought the thoughts were a trick of the ego, but if it doesn't exist, then what are thoughts and where do they come from?
I can totally see the necessity to let go of the expectations, noticed how all day my thoughts were labelling awakening in a new light, but I was aware enough to see it. Takes up so much space in the head.. But after reading your answers I looked deeply behind the thoughts, and once again noticed the presence behind it. But the spell broke by a thought saying: "Now what?" :p
Like yes, I see that I am not the thoughts, and there is a silent presence behind it, but don't know what to make of it/do with it..
Oh, and love the simple fact of "a drop of belief, like santa". Makes it much more down to earth than that fairytale state I put it in.
Like the simplicity of your answers. A freedom from "my, me and mine", and "it's not what you hope. It's something different." Also, heard so much about the soul etc, so realize now I've always had some hope that there was some "core" in my, like the soul, a true "me", but see that if there's no me, then it's not true! :)
That I need to look a new is more difficult, but feel like somethings fell with being aware of letting go of expectations. No need to "know" anymore.
I am very ready to go on, if you think I am of course!
One question though.. Am I the silent presence behind the thoughts? And if nothin' is permanent, then does that presence change? Felt that presence many times, but had they idea if I keep delving into that presence I would suddenly see that I'm "it", or something.. Hope you understand, not sure I do! :p
Noticed how body works on it's own without thoughts, though suddenly "I" appear again and sense of control and separate self is there.. Recognizing that it's just a thought, somehow not seems so clear.. The attachment to thoughts, feelings, a person etc etc.. Of course there's nothing wrong with that, but the "personal attachment" seems to be hard to let go of.. To "SEE" that it's just a thought and not "me"..
I did experience though, by NOT trying to do anything.. To "let" things happen effortlessly, to not force anything, things obviously calm down and takes care of themselves.. To just listen to "your heart/intuition/within" or how to put it, things create themselves effortlessly, easier and not as expected (this can easily create tension if there's a hope or expectation of a different scenario of course).. Trying to have faith in this unknown unfolding, though of course, mind rejects and if not aware, it takes a lot of attention and energy, cus of attachment, resistance etc.
Well, focusing on how body moves, eyes look around and things happen, but attachment when "I-thought" pops-up seems strong and a response is needed, control.. This happens again the way it happens, but why does it feel like it's needed to be seen differently? To not "be the thoughts", but just see them as thoughts..
Also, sometimes it's like some of the contents of thoughts seem too important to just let go.. Like there's just too much attachment to dare to let them go I suppose..
The other day there was resistance I had all day, then I forgave "myself" for not accepting it, for resisting it and so forth.. Really calmed down after that..
Well again, just trying to put in a lot of words, in case it clarifies something.. :)
Things still fall away I guess, but it seems like whole days of resistance and tension is needed to be able to let it go later during the day..
Hope to hear from you!
Best wishes,
Jonatan
Ilona
Ok, how these thoughts attach and to what exactly? Is me thought sticky? What is the glue made of?
There is an expectation at play, something that says, this should be different. Can you look into that and tell me what exactly is not as it should be?
I thought pops up, should it no longer pop up?
Is it I that controls what is happening? Is I the orchestrator, the puppet master of life?
The other day there was resistance I had all day, then I forgave "myself" for not accepting it, for resisting it and so forth.. Really calmed down after that..
Resistance shows up, if that is resisted, you get yourself in a loop. Noticing resistance and appreciating it really calms it down. It starts melting, and in the end there is surrender.
Well again, just trying to put in a lot of words, in case it clarifies something.. :)
Things still fall away I guess, but it seems like whole days of resistance and tension is needed to be able to let it go later during the day..
It will keep falling.. Good news- there is nowhere to land. :) when shit comes up, it comes up to be cleared. Trust that. All is unfolding as it should. Even if it does not seem like that at some moments. It still is.
Hope to hear from you!
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A HUNDRED OR SO EMAILS LATER...
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Jonatan
27/04/2014
So I sat yesterday and went through a lot of old emotions, with lots of resistance and could barely remember what this no self stuff was about in the turmoil.. Then I just read some of Gateless Gatecrashers, and Jamie's liberation.. His reaction to the simplicity to how simple this was, that he could barely believe it made "me" look properly.. "I" looked and saw nothing, like it's been all the time, but then I saw an expectation of: "There's gotta be more than this", and suddenly saw, that this expectation has kept me wanting more! Geez.. So simple.. Just look, there's nothing there.. Mind keeps wanting more, but there's a sense of peace and when feelings and thoughts come, they're looked at like: "Where do you attach? Who is feeling this?" There's just silence and they fade away.. I thought keeps popping up of course, then there's a feeling of "someone there", but then the thought disappears again, and it's gone..
So there's no glue to the I thought - the only thing that comes close is resistance, which makes it push back or reappear more strongly or something..
I thought is not the puppet master, but it claims to be, in every given experience..
And very accurate when you wrote: "Resistance shows up, if that is resisted, you get yourself in a loop. Noticing resistance and appreciating it really calms it down. It starts melting, and in the end there is surrender."
Been through some loops lately, and couldn't understand why it felt like they didn't just disappear like many other feelings, but kept reappearing Thought this makes it clear!
So many things have fallen away the last one and a half monht of so, but was not quite clear why, until I saw the "the hole/void/emptiness" everything disappeared into was not just emptiness, but emptiness of self..
Still seems to simple to be true, but "I'll" keep focus and dig into everything that pops up.. Mind tries new ways of keeping up the appearance of a self..
Is this really it Ilona? So simple? :)
Maybe the simplicity needs to sink in a little longer..
Wish you the best and hope to hear from you soon ;),
Jonatan
Ilona
Yes! It's is that simple!! This is it. No where for the thoughts to sticks, no one that gets affected by them. And even if it appears that thoughts stick, it's seen through quickly. Great!
Now I see, that you see.
Of course, this is not an end to anything, but an opening, a start of clearing, a real fresh beginning. It may not seem as much, but when it settles, ir changes everything! Simple and obvious. Yeah
I'm so happy for you. Big smile!
Sending love.
Jonatan
Hey Ilona
Felt like taking a few days to let it settle.. Funny how there is/was quite some disappointment, which switched from sadness, because of the letting go of all these fantasies, dreams etc to so much laughter from this "cosmic joke" (such a precise expression if you ask me).. Not knowing whether to laugh or cry.. So many books read and re-read, videos, travelling, frustrations etc etc. Nah, easy choice.. Laughing is healthier ;) Just still hard to understand the simplicity of it, though it is ever present .. Speaking of not knowing.. I realized how none of all this can ever be known or understood.. Came to be as a laughing epiphany - the not knowing of how anything actually work, cus how can it? Or is it just me?
And where does this "self-development" come from? Who started branding this? Hopefully it started as an ironic joke, and then it just went wrong! Well good luck developing out there.. Anyway - Did "my" part for sure.. hehe.. Though didn't get to spend quite 25 years as a seeker.. Thank God..
Also, I guess this clearing fase can take some time? Everything is coming up to be seen in a new light.. But there's a lightness to it all, and even though thoughts still focus for a short or longer time, it always comes back to be seen with "new eyes".. Not surprised that it needs to rebalance after so many years in a "system of self" to a change to "no self"..
One thing I am curious to ask about.. Now above I mentioned not knowing, but sometimes there are these "knownings", or what to call them.. Ideas, intuitions concerning people to talk to, when to talk to them etc etc.. Like there's a "clue givin" now, but there's a knowing that right now patience is needed, and it'll unfold naturally - as in, no action is needed in contacting this person or doing anything now, but keep it in mind or something.. Had them before, and recently, but right now it's clearer.. Is this just commonly known as normal intuition, or do you have any thoughts on this? If it makes any sense of course.. :)
Anyway.. I feel ready for the final questions if you think so too :)
Oh and.. Thank you so much for your patience!!!!!!!!!
I mean, it's been like 10 months - Geez! :)
Wonder if I broke the record for the longest guidance? haha
Lots of love, peace and laughter!
Jonatan
Ilona
Hi Jonatan,
Wonderful.. I see you get the cosmic joke! Incredible, isn't it!
As for knowing, knowing is something deep, non verbal, you just know. Verbal expression is a story that mind creates to describe what is known. Story is not reality. Reality is that which sees the story arising, which knows of what is going on. And if you hear the voice of intuition more now then before, it shows that you are listening to this inner knowing. You found the internal GPS :) if thought gives excitement, joy, curious feeling, it's a yes, that is the way to follow! If not, then it's just a thought arising to be noticed. If that makes sense.
You haven't beaten the record, I had longer conversations then this. And it does not matter how long or short. It matters that you see now and know where to look to see this again and again. There will be many different situations and conditions that will require looking, so don't stop with that. All that is in the shadows will come up to be seen and released. But as you know now, you are not the driver of this ride, you are in for the ride and it will take you to places. If it's not enjoyable, then there are still beliefs attached and expectations at play. So more to explore!
And here are the questions for you. ....
Jonatan
Hey Ilona and thanks for answer on knowing!
Yeah, it makes perfect sense, not so much the words of course, but well, knowing of knowing.. Been quite aware of it the last 2 years especially, but now it's just clearer and "understood" better.. Thanks for that! :)
And yeah, exploring for sure - so much fun!
As for the answers:
1) No, never was any entity of any form or shape.. Nothing but an unquestioned assumption.. Not much to say on that behalf, cus there's nothing there! The I thought makes it feel like there's "someone" there, but it disappears when looked at.
2) The illusion of a separate self started with language as little.. We were told: "This is you, this is me", and repeated over and over again! Never seemed any reason to question this, cus everyone lived believing the same illusion, as in it was never questioned, but seemed like a natural fact of life! "You are this, you are that, you have to become something, be someone etc etc.. We've been put in school from a young age to improve, to learn, to become better at things and develop skills to have a great life, and everything pointed to this assumption of a separate self that needed improvement, that could improve and learn, become better and actually control things!
A belief of a separate "I" is created, just due to language and not questioning this small assumption!
3) It's such a relief to see, such a joke to see the simplicity of something that has been searched and pondered for years, read about etc etc, and all it comes down to is a simple honest look.. It's been a long dialogue, so many things has happened in general, but the main difference is the lightness to everything.. The emptiness of self, the seeing of there not being anyone in the receiving end of feelings and thoughts, but just the experience of this.. Even work the last few days has been long, there's been an effortlessness to it all, no fighting, just allowance of whatever comes.. Sure things still "stick" from time to time, but things are still settling in and old beliefs, habits and so on is seen in this new light and released..
4) After having had this dialogue going for 10 months I suddenly read about the simplicity of seeing no self, and this guy reacted strongly concerning how simple and almost ridiculous it was.. "I" took another look, and felt a burning to look for the truth, the simplicity of it, no matter what illusions would fall.. "I" looked and saw the emptiness that has been clear for a while, and then saw the expectation of wanting more, and realized how this tiny expectation has been "in the way".. Suddenly this emptiness was not just emptiness, but emptiness of self, which made all the difference in that second!
5) Decisions and intentions happen effortlessly.. Body moves and mind comments on what's going on.. "I" cannot control anything, the only "I" that exists, exists in thoughts and is just a well repeated word.. Things happen by themselves.. The mind makes it look like there's a decision, like there's anyone to take a decision, but it's only due to the confusion in the belief of an "I".. In reality body moves NOW and things happen according to that, which mind is commentating.. There's nothing "I" can do at all.. Even still there might be times when it feels like I need to make a decision, but it's just the mind trying to hold on to the story of "I".. When this is noticed, it's seen again that there's nobody there, just a trick of the mind.. I see this might take a while before the mind let's fully go, but already it has loosened it's grip a lot..
6) I'd love to learn how to guide, cus passing this on would be an amazing gift!
Also, not quite sure why, but it's still does not seem clear that everything is connected, as in looking around and everything is "me", but perhaps it's just cus there are some more beliefs and/or assumptions that needs to fall..
Excited to hear from you! :)
Very best wishes,
Jonatan
Ilona
Hi Jonatan!
Thank you so much for answers and welcome home! I'm delighted for you!
Yes the simplicity and obviousness is staggering, it's always been here in front of the face. I'm so glad you kept going, kept looking and so the line was crossed. I'm so happy that seeking has ended. Now exploration begins and there is so much more to see, this is a start of awakening journey. So nice that you going away to Italy at this time! It will be wonderful.
I usually make a blogpost of these conversations and invite people to join LU on Facebook. Would it be ok for you to share some bits of our long journey? I can use your name or any name you like. But these conversations are often helpful for someone else, that may be stuck at the same point.
Hope to hear form you soon!
Enjoy time away
Much Love
Jonatan
Hey Ilona
It's still somehow staggering the simple but powerful impact of this honest look.. And thank you, the end of seeking is truly wonderful! I'm in Assisi with my family right now, also called City of Peace, quite convenient wouldn't you say? ;)
It's fascinating to be in a place with so much religion and spirituality, cus these things go way back in my family and since I was little.. Seeing these things in this bright new perspective is truly a daily revelation! To see all these seekers from all over the world, monks and nuns and my family without any need to seek.. Being in peace in religious places where there's been so many dramas and confrontations growing up.. Feeling the people and the atmosphere as it is without judgement is quite exceptional right now.. And the simplicity of letting things and people be and do as the feel like, without any want or need for change is such a relieve..
I'll give you and update later on in my clearing fase, cus it's been a long journey with you, and would love to share what happens next with you!
And of course you can use anything you want from our conversation, and my name as well! Would be great to join the LU community for sure - would be very helpful I'm sure!When things are settled a little more I'll definently guide - Would be SO much fun! :)
Ilona - Thank you thank you thank you! Thank you for your patience, kindness and nonetheless your direct pointing! I'm so ever grateful and words doesn't even come close to expressing this! Can any gift be greater, than the simplicity of NOW? Than seeing the play of Life? Of just experiencing all of This, for what it is, without any interference or belief or need to put anything in a box?
From the bottom of my heart - Thank you Ilona!
Bless you and keep in touch,
Jonatan
excellent!
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