Saturday, 28 September 2013

If This Hopeless Seeker Got It, Then You Sure Have A Chance





This was a long conversation and quite intense. Hernan was a long time seeker and it wasn't easy for him. But the shell got cracked and seeking dropped and I am delighted for him. 

Hernan
Mar 24

Hi, Ilona, I am Hernan, the client otter was talking about.
Thank you for having me.
Was the idea to chat or we reply when it suits us best?
Regards.

Ilona
Mar 24

Hi Hernan.

Thanks for email.
For me it works the best when you answer when ready after proper investigation into a question.

Can you write a bit about your journey and where do you feel you are now. We'll take it from there.

Kind regards.

Hernan
Mar 24

Where I feel I am... After so long following a path I feel I have so little true understanding. I could play the veteran, the teacher. All this time in India a considerable portion of it in loose retreat with some tight ones, knowing Tibetan, having received hundreds of empowerments and transmissions and teachings. From many of the greatest living Lamas. Having relied on one who is a very pure example, who really looks like liberated... But, to be honest... I would be just parroting what I studied. I see some changes, yes. But so small. Some humbleness, some qualities...

Then I have been reading and listening on westerners who have gone through some awakening. Many of which seem very genuine. So, in time I came to question my path. On the one hand, Vajrayana seems wow, the fast path to awakening and so many have had success in the past. It is tested by centuries. Yeah, yet, I have had so little success. I don’t have any trouble to say I'm an asshole. Still I would have a hard time to say who has.

And these westerners, yes, we have the problem of huge pride and premature claims. High ones at that. But at the same time, that irreverence those same defects produce a plethora of courageous, smart, often brilliant ideas and practices. And people from the past have their lot of defects. Following the herd, lack of inventive, narrow mindedness, etc.

So I can't help asking me: what if all that huge complication, loooong paths, rigid recipes, etc. were not really necessary? These W. may be fooling themselves thinking they have reached the goal, but who cares? If deluded, one will bang the head. And learn. From that. And one of the things that convinces me most is that many of those W have believed they were done, only to discover there is still more depth. Even more inspiring: that that is valid is realization and at the same time it will be seen in the light of further experience, as provisory, somehow partial. On and on. Who could possibly find fault at that? Apart from someone close minded.

And, as if that were not enough, there’s a great component of love in many of them. And yet more, it’s not that they are helpless: many have been transmitting the realization to others. And they themselves in turn, to others.

What could one think of greater value than that?

So, here I am, wanting to participate in this silent revolution. I had become quite convinced so many conditions are needed and such a steady foundation... that I thought I could only expect minimum results in this life. It's 20 years........
Regards.

Ilona
Mar 25

Hi Hernan.

I see your cup is very full.
In order to see (we are not talking about understanding here) you are gonna need to empty your cup.

This has nothing to do with states, nor with philosophy, analysis, comparison between west and east, but plain experience that is right here right now.

So the first task is to look at expectations.

Let me tell you this- seeing no self is a first tiny step of awakened journey.  Not the end, not the enlightenment that sages talk about, but the opening to it, just a beginning of exploration.

So now please make a list of what you expect this first step is about,
What do you think will happen?
How do you think it will happen?

Please report not from what you read, but from what YOU observe in you.

Without this step we cannot go anywhere.

Write all that wants to come out.

Sending love.

Hernan
Mar 26

Hi Ilona.
I know well this is not about anything else than looking directly within. I went into that because you told me to write on it to know where I am standing.

Simply stated, if looking within and seeing there's no I, actually, etc. then I would be done. In this first step, at least. In that case I don't see much point in going through it again.

It is not intellectual, yet it is a superficial seeing. Otherwise I could not continue to grasp the way I do. Either pull in or push away. If look within and find no I and yet a moment later I get annoyed at something barring me from getting what I want... Then it just shows I didn't really got it. Yes, it seems to be I have matured somehow. But such a modest change in so long...And I am 46.

So, I expect change. In perception. Which has to bring about change in behavior. As in anything. Say, psychotherapy.

Some weeks earlier I replied in this way:

 1) I would say it would have some similarity with this: once I was in retreat and I saw a fly on a stone. I felt empathy for her as never before. Shame for all the times I have lost my temper with insects, regret. And a determination not to behave like that again. Unlike many other instances I kind of kept it. But not out of sheer biting my lips. That was some degree of love which I probably didn't feel later, yet without effort I tend to be patient with them.

 2) Being quite amazed on how could I have missed something so obvious. And on its simplicity. But at the same time a blatant difference with what it was before. Even if hard to pinpoint.

3) Whatever the degree of the liberation, a corresponding weakening of reactivity, desires, aversion, criticism, etc

4) And that much acceptance of others and situations. And wanting- and being able- to use anything to learn.

5) Which are the roots of love. Towards me as well as others.

6) That much of ability to know mind, learn it's patterns and use that knowledge.

7) That much of qualities developing, starting with compassion, devotion, renunciation, awareness... And yet, sure enough, a bumpy journey. Starting with believing it is much deeper than actually is, which life will take care too show me soon. But, at the same time, discovering strength within and without to go on even if stumbling every now and then.

Regards,
H

Ilona
Mar 26


I know well this is not about anything else than looking directly within. I went into that because you told me to write on it to know where I am standing.
Yes, that's cool.

Simply stated, if looking within and seeing there's no I, actually, etc. then I would be done.
If there is no I, then what is that gets 'done'?
There is no done. It's just another carrot to chase. 
There is no within either.

In this first step, at least. In that case I don't see much point in going through it again.
Well, it's for me to decide, where is the point and where isn't.  Expectations is the biggest block to seeing. The other one is fear. 

If look within and find no I and yet a moment later I get annoyed at something barring me from getting what I want...
What is the first I? What is the I that gets annoyed and wants something else? Does it pop in when you are not looking? How does that work?

Then it just shows I didn't really got it.
Yes.  And it's ok, if you are ready to look with fresh eyes, I will show you where to look. 

Yes, it seems to be I have matured somehow. But such a modest change in so long...And I am 46.
So, I expect change. In perception.
What do you expect that change in perception is? Does that change what is? Does it change the character? Does it change what is going on?

If you put pink glasses on, everything looks pink, this is the change in perception. It's still all as it was, just pink. It does not make you lovable and people don't treat you differently, it's just seeing all in pink. See what I'm saying?  Same with seeing here, the glasses of belief that there is a separate self within are taken off.

Which has to bring about change in behavior.
Hmm, it may or may not. At least not right from the beginning.

1)Iwould say it would have some similarity with this: once I was in retreat and I saw a fly on a stone. I felt an empathy for her as never before. Shame for all the times I have lost my temper with insects, regret. And a determination not to behave like that again. Unlike many other instances I kind of kept it. But not out of sheer biting my lips. That was some degree of love which I probably didn't feel later, yet without effort I tend to be patient with them.
This what you are describing is a state. No state is permanent.  So don't expect a state to stick.

2) Being quite amazed on how could I have missed something so obvious. And on it's simplicity. But at the same time a blatant difference with what it was before. Even if hard to pinpoint.
Some get amazed, others say what? Is that it? And get annoyed with this simplicity, not wanting to recognize it.

3) Whatever the degree of the liberation, a corresponding weakening of reactivity, desires, aversion, criticism, etc
The patterns are seen and start getting released. Seeing no self is a beginning of relaxation, yes.

4) And that much acceptance of others and situations. And wanting- and being able- to use anything to learn.
There are no others. That becomes clear, when it's s seen that there is no self entity in you. 
Wanting has nothing to do with seeing, neither does learning.

5) Which are the roots of love. Towards me as well as others.
It may or may not come with heart opening.  As I said before, this does not change the character. 

6) That much of ability to know mind, learn it's patterns and use that knowledge.
Nothing to do with knowledge either,  mind does what it does, it's not yours to control it. 

7) That much of qualities developing, starting with compassion, devotion, renunciation, awareness... And yet, sure enough, a bumpy journey. Starting with believing it is much deeper than actually is, which life will take care too show me soon. But, at the same time, discovering strength within and without to go on even if stumbling every now and then.
Yeah, life does not stop, things happen, up and down is not going to cease.
There is freedom to experience not from experience.  Freedom to enjoy the bumps as well as smooth ride. As it's seen that you are not the driver.... You are not in control of what happens, not a manager of your inside, there is no inside and outside. Just a ride, that rides itself. 

Now I invite you to look through all these expectations and tell me where did reaction arise, what was most resisted or unacceptable to you at this point.  

And I must ask you, do not copy paste any thing from what you said before. What I need to hear is how you feel right now, what you seeing this moment, not some time ago.  Cool?

Looking forward to hear from you. 
Much love. 

Hernan
Mar 28

What is the first I? What is the I that gets annoyed and wants something else? Does it pop in when you are not looking? How does that work?
The one I don't find is an idea, a patchwork of stuff we identify with. The other is...habitual patterns, the actual 'thing' we refer to when we have that idea. Kinda the same..

What do you expect that change in perception is? Does that change what is? Does it change the character? Does it change what is going on?
A different angle, naturally seeing what before was just reminding oneself it is so (teachings that sound true). No it doesn't. One's character? Well, sure. Take just one aspect: if we start to really see the fiction of a separate I, then it seems hard to imagine to be selfish. Yeah, don't mean all in a sudden, but a day to day of habits wearing themselves out. I guess it takes some paying attention and feeling deeply their how mean, non adaptive, useless, they are. More, how much unnecessary trouble they bring. It takes distraction to fall into habits.

If you put pink glasses on, everything looks pink, this is the change in perception. It's still all as it was, just pink. It does not make you lovable and people don't treat you differently, it's just seeing all in pink. See what I'm saying?   Same with seeing here, the glasses of belief that there is a separate self within are taken off.
Examples capture some aspect of what we want to convey. I don't think you believe  it is so inconsequential...

Which has to bring about change in behavior.

Hmm, it may or may not. At least not right from the beginning.
Ok, there is the answer. Agree.

Some get amazed, others say what? Is that it? And get annoyed with this simplicity, not wanting to recognise it.
I see.
The patterns are seen and start getting released. Seeing no self is a beginning of relaxation, yes.

Wanting has nothing to do with seeing, neither does learning.
I meant the disposition, openness that account for learning from what we like and what we don;t.

It may or may not come with heart opening.  As I said before, this does not change the character. 
I see. Are those just stages? Or for some it will be without heart opening and others the opposite, etc, etc.?

Nothing to do with knowledge either,  mind does what it does, it's not yours to control it. 
Ain't it just words? I mean what you realize. You observe, you learn, you don't get caught in mind's games you take things lightly. or you know, you realized it's nature.

Ilona
Mar 29

Are you the character?
Do you own the character? Is there a person named Herman? Or just a story about person named Hernan?

If I asked you to touch Hernan with a finger now, where does the finger land?

So all these patterns of behaviour and thought, do they belong to you? Are you the centre to where these patterns stick? Are you in control of habits or they seem to carry on regardless of what you want?

Examine this closely.

And no, seeing the character does not change the character.  Can you change the character named batman? How is story about Hernan different from story about batman? Where are they both found?

Sending love. 

Hernan
Mar 29

Are you the character?
Do you own the character? Is there a person named Herman? Or just a story about person named Hernan?
You in the superficial sense, sure. Not at all in the deep one, as basis of mental activity. 'Own'sounds weird. Not really. Yes, just that.

If I asked you to touch Hernan with a finger now, where does the finger land?
If anywhere, on the surface of the body. But immediately looks funny.

So all these patterns of behaviour and thought, do they belong to you? Are you the centre to where these patterns stick? Are you in control of habits or they seem to carry on regardless of what you want?

Examine this closely.
Not in the sense of being their master. No. Yes they do seem.

And no, seeing the character does not change the character.  Can you change the character named batman? How is story about Hernan different from story about batman?
I seem to have trouble with this one. If I am nasty, will others have to bear with me forever?
One is created for entertainment, identification, etc. of others and the other... it looks as if we take to the conclusion that either we create one or we'll be always out. And that seems dreadful.

Where are they both found?
In thought, in ideas.

Love.

Ilona
Mar 31


Hi Hernan,

You say:

I seem to have trouble with this one. If I am nasty, will others have to bear with me forever?
One is created for entertainment, identification, etc. of others and the other... it looks as if we take to the conclusion that either we create one or we'll be always out. And that seems dreadful.

There is no "you". There is a character that is playing it's role- nasty, good, loved, horrible are all nothing but judgements.
Are you the actor of the role? If so, can you choose to be goodie or baddie? Are you director? Orchestrator? Watcher? Are you the manager of what happens to Hernan?

What do you see when you look at Hernan? What drives this character?
How does Hernan look dependent on the mood? How does he look from the points of view of mother, partner, best friend, stranger? Do their stories match?

Is Hernan more then an image? Is that image you?
What is that makes you feel dreadful? Does this image need to be maintained and protected?

Yeah, many questions for you.  Have a good look and answer when ready.

Much love and happy Easter!
:)

Hernan
Apr 2


Hi Ilona.
Sorry for the delays. But I will be quite busy till around 20-25th of this month.

No matter what I would reply, the truth is I am quite convinced I am, I can choose, I am the director, watcher, manager of what happens to me. I'd say much more that the average. Very ingrained conviction we could make huge changes in just about anything...if we just really wanted, had the courage it takes,etc. Even though I am acutely aware of the weight of conditioning.

What do you see when you look at Hernan? What drives this character?
A cluster of habits, patterns, caught up in stories that seem so important in the moment and so meaningless later. Unsatisfaction with this condition and conviction I could live so much more complete and challenging life.

How does Hernan look dependent on the mood? How does he look from the points of view of mother, partner, best friend, stranger? Do their stories match?
Quite a bit. Very different in every case. In some aspects.

Is Hernan more then an image? Is that image you?
a generalization , an immense oversimplification. No.

What is that makes you feel dreadful? Does this image need to be maintained and protected?
Did I say I feel so? Or just asking? If the latter, aggression, violence, harm. No, not at all.

Ilona
Apr 3


Hi Hernan.

No matter what I would reply, the truth is I am quite convinced I am, I can choose, I am the director, watcher, manager of what happens to me. I'd say much more that the average. Very ingrained conviction we could make huge changes in just about anything...if we just really wanted, had the courage it takes,etc. Even though I am acutely aware of the weight of conditioning.

This is where burning desire to see what is true comes in.
If you like to keep your conditioning and believe in fairy tale stories about your infinite power, please keep them. It is not awakening that you want. You want to hold on to your beliefs so hold on, because in waking up they all burn. All. If you are not ready for that, then perhaps you are not ripe. And that is ok too. There is no right or wrong in how you see life, you see it as you see. It takes courage and huge amount of honesty to break free and question all the precious beliefs. Unless you are absolutely ready, nothing we talk can get you see that all this I am manager/director/watcher is a lie that you keep telling yourself. You actually need to look.  No looking- no seeing.  And how would you look, if you are so convinced that you know how it is.

Have a good think about what I say and get back to me if you are ready to face what is true and what is illusions.

Sending love. 

Hernan
Apr 4

Hi Ilona.
If I were eager to hold on to my beliefs I wouldn´t be trying this. And definitely not for months.
I am saying this is the case with me, not that I am happy, proud, adamant,etc. about it.
I am open to question that lie, but it seems so convincing to me at this stage.
I am not so convinced it is like this in the sense that I have made my mind already.
Love,
H

Ilona
Apr 7

Illusion is meant to be convincing :)
Maybe you could tell me, what is it you are looking for and how much you want to find it?
How will you recognise it when you do find it?

Hernan
Apr 9

Hi Ilona.
Yes, sure.
Living a fuller life. Finding the inner guidance, Living from the heart. Seeing anything as an opportunity to learn, grow. Other rather than self-centered. Accepting everything as it is rather than my wishes. Confidence, in me, in the true nature of things,etc. You could choose any single one or many others I could mention.
In a sense  I really want it. In a sense my actions contradict that.
To the degree I manifest them I wil not miss them. Some will need more interaction with others to show themselves clearly.
Love.

Ilona
Apr 9

What is in the way for all that now?

See, there is no self already, there never was you as a separate entity, it's all life living itself. What is it that does not let accepting everything as it is including those wishes as they are?

Sounds like you are looking for improvement of experience.  But the key is to see that there is no experiencer, neither it is needed for experiences to be happening.

All experiencing is happening right this moment.  The rest- past / future/ thoughts about what has to be different- are in imagination.  Living from the heart is just surrendering to what is, moment to moment. Allowing and welcoming all that shows up, whatever shows up.
Living from the head is believing in stories and trying fix what is not broken.

Maybe, there is nothing wrong already?
Is there anything missing now?

Sending love.

Hernan
Apr 11

Hi Ilona.
When i read your email i had just listened this-  Admitting Who You Really Are - Jeff Foster - YouTube  You seem to be saying exactly the same.
I´m feeling quite silly. Childish.
Love

Ilona
Apr 11

Is there a you that can or need to wake up?

:)

Hernan
Apr 13

:-)
No.

Ilona
Hahahaa,  sure?

Can you say, that shift has happened? Is anything different, all same? Can you describe what are you noticing lately?

Sending love.

Hernan
Apr 14

I don't think so. Quite so. I am getting convinced, I am having trouble to dismiss so many pointers saying that in fact it is so simple. And it just sounds so true. And that the seeking attitude itself pushes away and solidifies a goal. And a confidence that sooner or later I will see the absurd of it all.
Love,
H

Ilona
Apr 15

The seeking is a game of golden carrot, of hope for happy tomorrow, it takes a lot of energy to sustain the illusion that there is something to find out or stuff to do in order to simply be. 

It is like looking for slippers while wearing slippers. Where are they??? And duh, they are on feet!

That which you are looking for does not exist.  And it's ok to relax and stop pretending that it does. :)

Yes, sooner or later all becomes clear.  When you focus on the obvious, rather then on imaginary.  When you are ready to give up the idea of golden carrot that is driving the search.

Much love. 

Hernan
Apr 17

It looks like a kind of neurosis. The thing you want is right there and yet to take all sorts of crooked ways to get it. Because you don't even see it in front, instead, you see all kinds of things in between.
On the other hand, there's a suspicion of quick and easy paths or fixes. Partly because all too often we westerners tend to be very arrogant and believe we know better and overestimate originality. And also because one cannot help but thinking, ´come on, all these thousands of years people have meditated,etc.,their asses and you are going to tell me it takes just that. Give me a break..¨And of course, our culture also is very much into effort if one wants success in any endeavor.
Just some thoughts, since there were no questions.

Only now I got my passport back, so it seems i'm actually leaving tomorrow. So don't mind if I don´t reply till, say, Wednesday.
Love.

Ilona
Apr 17

It literally takes 3 seconds of one focused look.

And this is so simple, that it can be dismissed as too simple. Never less, it's right here, always visible and not even hidden.

So one takes years to look at what is already obvious.

There is nothing to find out. No I that can find it.

Can a thought get enlightened?

Sending love.

Hernan
May 29

Hi, Ilona
Sorry for such a delay. I thought I would finish some things I had to do in 5 days and took 20. By the end of that period I had a working connection but I just answered the urgent mails. Now again I have a connection after 10 days without one.
On the other hand, I wanted to attend a Gyan Viddhi (sort of an iniciation) and see the result without being unsure of what caused it.

Very particular place, this one. I've never been in a place where just about everyone seems to be happy  and there's hardly any problem. They report that and that is what I see. No criticism so little kleshas... And I have been here for 20 days already.
And that is what my experience has mirrored, even before the initiation itself
Then , one day, someone I didn't know pick me up and took me to his teacher. An exact complement. Whereas here there's a lot of the relative level and not much of the absolute, that teacher is quite the opposite.

In short, I feel the former is being very helpful and the latter giving me quite a bit of confidence.

Anyway, I might ask you later on if you are available.
Thank you very much.
Love.

Ilona
May 29

Wow, the place sounds amazing! Where is that happy place? 
Sure, email me any time, I'm here if you want to talk.

Much love.

Hernan
Jun 13

Hi.
Simandhar City, in the outskirts of Ahmedabad, GJ, India.
I don´t know if I would have come here had I not read Jan Esmann´s experience, in his site. And I got there through batgap, just as LU.
I saw there's now an interview of Deepakbhai, the head of this group.
As with everything it takes a little to familiarize oneself with the logic of the path and then start to see the depth, which only now I´m starting to see. I think it is worth. But that comes only after one gains confidence in that it works. Through experience best, but also listening other´s.
In their website there are several, although most are too brief.
Thanks for being available. And for all you are doing.
Love.

Ilona
Jun 14

Sounds that your journey is getting more juicy! Enjoy your stay there. :)
All you need is trust, that everything is happening as it should and dive in in life to experience it fully. 

If you would like to talk some more, I'm always here.

Lots of love. 

Hernan
Aug 28

Hi Ilona.
How are you?
Would you have time to resume?
I wrote a post on Fb for O.Rivers. You might want to read it.
Love.

Wait, I copied almost all. With poor connections, I have lost posts on Fb, so just in case...

Things on LU. Then I told me, ""how are you going to give your opinion without refreshing your memory and reading more?" After reading I feel there's something very valuable in it. I would like to know more about the follow up of people who crossed. But I guess that is reserved for them. I which case, why not try again? Which , of course will give me the much more important opportunity of seeing it's worth by myself. I just hope everyone in LU never stop going deeper and wider. Or let it go deeper and expand, I should say.
And reading made me ponder and watch and question quite a bit. These have been very important months for me.When I wrote I was at my lowest, in terms of faith and confidence. On the path. On myself. I am now in retreat and for weeks, so much suff has come out. How can one fool oneself so much... On top of the basic make believe of an I, a whole personality and life story of deception. Deceiving others to fool oneself. Very smart. And to top it all, pride for that image...Awesome! We all know it. Yeah. We could say the same the same of the false identification with an I- at least for people interested on these things. As much as we know we'll die. But behave as if we had complete assurance of living for 500 years.

And then, seeing the hypocrisy, which, at it's peak, turns into blaming the path i'm following, and even my main guide- who is the purest and wisest being I know-, for my failure in achieving anything, when I have stubbornly done everything I could to pay no heed and stumble at every step, groping closed eyed... Amaaaaaaaaazing! In fact, he has been telling me to investigate and watch mind, I, etc.,since quite early on. And I did it for some years, albeit I slipped into too little actual watching. And the I dropped it.

Only now, writing this, it clicked on me that this could be a stepstone for seeing through the other one. The biggest lie. I had not even seen how close related they are. SO I will now write Ilona. See if we can resume, or maybe better, start from square one. We didn't do too many days and I had to leave.
Wish you all the best. And thanks.

Ilona
Aug 29

Hi Hernan,

Thank you for email. Yes, let's carry on and finish this once and for all. Then you can explore what next and share your journey with people on LU.

Lies, yes, burn them all. They can not stand the truth and writing things down is the best and most focused way to set lies on fire.  Either you write to me, to otter or to yourself, don't leave a stone unturned. All the accumulated bullshit has got to be dropped. Either now or later. Emptying the cup is a stage in this journey.

Stories are just stories, fiction, patterns of thoughts repeated. Stories are not the only thing that goes on in experience. What your experience consists of, right now?

Good to see you back, man. 
Much love.

Hernan
Aug 31

Hi, Ilona.
Yes, let's finish him off. ;-)

On the last days I have been checking quite a bit. Specially regarding the issue I have most trouble with, when debunking I. It appears quite true that given a mind and a capacity to remember and convictions, a scale of values, priorities, desires, aversions, etc.,etc.- there's no need to posit the existence of any headquarters. Neither of these, in turn, need one.

I mean: it looks as 'I' decide to look at mind. Yet, I remembered to do so, because when I, eg., read that, I appreciated it as important; I am dissatisfied and it seemed worth to give it a shot. I don't need to go anywhere; it doesn't take much time. Etc, etc. None of this takes a central management, necessarily. An order of priorities seem to attach a feeling to each. Much as a computer orders files by the 1st.letter of it's name, size, type. So, then everything is precooked and when prompted for a decision related to that, it just needs to be checked against the situation. Is it fit enough? All  of which can come about through trial and error, acceptance/reward or not from others, etc, in all its complexity which we go on assimilating. You need sentience, wanting happiness and avoiding suffering in the basement.

Then, before yesterday I spent a couple of hours, very focused, specially inspired by a post on LU, on ownership. Yes, it does feels very absurd.

My tingling on the arm? My memory of that holiday?
Long ago I saw there are 2 options: calling I that presence, which is absurd, since there is nothing personal, nothing Hernan, particularly, in it. Or the personality, which we don't believe really to be. Just as with the body, we are identified with it regarding what is material. It is only one step inward. Now what I checked is how funny it is to identify oneself with the personality... then, what? my trait of being usually late, together any of the millions that compose my personality, listens the chirping of the birds...?!

Just looking there's just....................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................
The moment a thought comes there's no more looking. Without thoughts, "we run out of words".

Love.

Ilona
Sep 3

Hi Hernan.

Can you say YES, it is clear, that I, Hernan, separate entity does not exist in reality?
If not, what else is there that needs to be looked at?

Is there a thinker, a perceiver, a center to experience?

Is life happening to you or as you?

Was there ever a separate self?

Sending love.

Hernan 
Sep 3

Yes, I think so.

No, and yet that is how it feels.

It feels as if it were happening to me.

It feels as if there is an I still.

No surprise for me at all.

Love.

Ilona
Sep 3

Interesting. You say that it feels like. How would you know the difference?

It feels as if there is an I still.

Can you look closer here and tell me, if there is no I, how can it feel like there is an I?
Is being (verb) I?
Or I is a thought?
Is a thought I doing being?

Hernan
Sep 4

I guess, otherwise I should have felt some difference at some point.
Also, I would expect a lack of reference as when I rest mind without object.

A bit as we know fully well the day is caused by the Earth turning around the Sun and yet... I feels so much the opposite.

No, it is a bundle of thoughts. 
No. No way.

Love.

Ilona
Sep 6

If there is no self and never was, then why would there be any difference?
If you expect that thoughts should stop arising, then it's just magical thinking. Thoughts arise and will keep to arise, it's not that you are the one thinking them.
Same with feelings.

There is no Big Bang when a belief drops. More likely it's a little puff...

Is the seeking still there?

Sending love.

Hernan 
Sep 7

If you were believing yourself to be an excellent guy and now you realize it was just fooling yourself, it moves you even though that was happening all along.

If you expect that thoughts should stop arising, then it's just magical thinking. Thoughts arise and will keep to arise, it's not that you are the one thinking them.
Same with feelings.
Not at all. Now, getting sucked by them, as a child in front of the TV...


There is no Big Bang when a belief drops. More likely it's a little puff...
I'm sure not for most folks. And surely not for me. But at least that "Aha..." with the accompanying sense of having catch the'joke'...

Is the seeking still there?
Yes.

Ilona
Sep 8

So what is it you are seeking? Aha moment? A cosmic laugh?

This, right now, this moment is all there is. Is anything missing? Is here anything that should be different?

What is not complete?
What is not just happening by itself?
Are you the general manager of life? If so, it's ok to resign.

:)
Sending love.
Hernan 
Sep 10

I don't know if cosmic, but that I had my share of laughter...

On Sunday morning I began to ask myself"Isn't it absurd to have an aim? And way up there. Am I not asking for suffering?  Am I not creating a problem? What if I... just dump it? Wouldn't I have done with it in one stroke?" Such a relief to lay down the burden. Laughter. From the depth. How could I made up an such an issue? Like getting into the market and a guy is shouting,"Sale, sale! Suffering for just 19.90 bucks" And go buy it. And  returning for more! Several times a day!

But, hold on. What about the other side of the equation? i repeated it many times. "I want to attain awakening". I... I... What am I talking about? By far most of the day I am carried wherever the wind of thought blows. Even when I want to investigate within, I am carried away every now and then.Great! So I am thinking in the latter. In the former I called it 'distracted'. What difference is there at the level of the thoughts themselves? That looks creepily similar to how I identify myself with some aspects and feel distant from others. They happen to be those that I consider worthy, etc. and shameful, etc, respectively. What else than sheer make belief.

But even if, true, I can keep coming to a point I am interested in, every single thing I can come up with is tainted with my experience. Make a little change in my early years and my present would be hugely different from what it is. I forget to take something in account and the conclusions of my investigation will vary greatly. And experience... that itself is conditioning. Certainty for a couple of times something happen? Come on. Everything has conditioned me. From the most obvious- such as parents, emotions, etc.- to the least- say, weather. Everything dependent on circumstances. Which, in turn, are constantly changing. And, as if that were not enough, so easily influenced.By what others say, emotions, etc. I? What do you f&&^*^%&$ mean? Everything occurs in patterns. Or we find always patterns in everything, should I say. Of course my thinking will  be no exception.

So where, is there any place for the idea I have of an I? The guy calling the shots? It rather looks as the stereotype of the husband who in the street plays as the one wearing the trousers and at home his wife knows well what she must say to make him do what she wants.

I wonder what triggered this. As with health, there's always several factors and it is not obvious which could have been the effective one.

On Friday and Saturday I had an interview with my main teacher, first in 16 months. On the 2nd. one he emphasized the need of me drawing a line. That I have to come to decide that it is enough. With what I know, what I received, studied, etc. And not continue to try things. I think it must have had some influence. But definitely the aspect this took is what I had been doing since last week when I started to read LU again. And then your questions. The one that stuck was, "Is seeking still going on". Yes. Yes, that kept nagging. Though I have to say maybe a big part was my ego waiting for the slash from you!
And surely, the process of seeing all the stories I believed of myself and my hypocrisy and deceit, has had a big part too.

How enlivening to feel .......free. Every time I think it joy and laughter pop up. How we lock ourselves... willingly! Such a mastodont of believes. We're constantly told we shouldn't have hopes and yet that is what we feed from. And you can always explain away the failure. Not enough retreat, and if I had not get it even then... you could always blame it on obstacles... And as a last recourse the scapegoat can be your intention.

Yesterday and today I caught me thinking: "May this time really..." And I laughed. "Boy, this is not some state, something you need sustain, keep, hold. No ratified experience either. It's just not buying that bullshit any more. It is just seeing what is. Now, if you start to expect you will no more fall prey to emotions, and so on, that is your problem. Or you buying a problem. Just no more stratosphere-high lofty aim. Been fine with anything and not wanting some other special thing. How could there be fall from that?
Surely this side, the I, will take much more confrontation. Bot conviction plays a huge role in this. And my certainty on living no stone unturned in debunking 'I', in that as a matter of fact that will happen, has grown enormously.

Thank you Ilona.
There's some other things from the interviews. Tell you on the next one.

Love.

Ilona
Sep 10

Hmm, I can hear that shell cracking! Yumm!

Yes, it is a wake up call- stop believing in bullshit and seeing things as they are. No more trying to escape this by thinking about next moment, a goal, aim, some imagined scenario that will make one compete.  Completeness is always here waiting to be noticed if you have eyes for it. And believing is a veil, that somehow takes the magic out of the moment and turns it around into lack.

Seeking is happening as an escape mechanism. In a way it is trying to find home, from which one never left. All it takes is noticing- ha, home was here all along.  It's like looking for keys and finding them in your hand.  No step journey, hahaha..

Soo, tell me more, what else do you notice, is anything separate? Is there an I in this bag of skin? :)
Was there ever?

Much love.

Hernan
Sep 16 

Sorry for the delay. I had no subscription for a few days.
Absolutely.

No, everything is at the very same level. Just a habit of considering I apart.
And there is no difference between those moments in which I feel 'here', and the previous which I call, "being distracted". In terms of the pattern.

No, can't find any.

Love.

Ilona
Sep 17 

Can you write more, what is happening and what do you mean here. Sorry, but I can't get what you are saying in your email.

Love.

Hernan
Sep 18 

Sorry, let me try again.
Same level in that no special status for any part. An I. We may see it as so important, so much of the other stuff refers to it and it is so recurrent , that it may seem otherwise, but they are mere thoughts.

When we are dozing imagination begins to loose contact with our concerns, etc. And the same goes for our getting distracted. Just a matter of degree. We dismiss the latter, we say, "I got carried away...". We don't have much trouble in not positing an I there. Yet, there's not much of a difference with feeling connected, 'here'. Say taking a decision. One of the tougher ones, since we particularly feel being an I. We do, also, get distracted there, every now and then. But the main point is: there is no difference i the quality, so to say. Just the content. For someone with very strong renunciation, those'concerns' will seem as meaningless as distraction. Even s dreams. Dreams are to dozing as dozing is for being distracted. And the next would be feeling 'here'. And the next? No more narrative, the senses and thoughts. Still there there is a whole bunch of overlays of object-background, space, time, etc., in a particular hierarchy. So the next one should be being just as someone having a lucid dream. Not within my experience, but many of surely notice how much less solid and rigid everything is when we are centered, well. And , on the contrary, how stiff it a turns when we grasp.
My point is: no quality, but degree differences. More importantly, judging reality through the lens of our concerns is laughable. For they are the outcome of deluded mind.

Love.

Ilona
Sep 19

So what are you saying, Hernan? Is there an I, the separate entity, the doer, thinker, manager, or not? Was it ever?

Hernan 
Sep 20

When looking in a state of calm, it is much more obvious one finds nothing. When in a state of movement, during distraction, it is quite tough to come up with an I. I was having a little trouble with when I feel I am here, specially as in deciding.
Now I had to decide something so then I did a rehearsal, step by step.
Thought............&%$/&/.............&(//&$&#..............&$/&(/)(/........ One after the other. Any other stuff? Well, no. I guess that is what you want to zero in. And why we were a bit of of sync. A thought of an option, of "better now so I...", "wait, if I leave it for Monday...", etc, etc. So what? And some, most or all- not sure yet-, referring back to an assumed I, fine. Now, is there anything else? Other than the sequence of thought? No. They look just the same as any other thought.
Love.
H
...

Ilona
Sep 21

Would you say you are ready for the final questions? If not, what is not clear yet?

:)
Sending love

Hernan
Sep 21 

I think so. A part of me would say, "but...", yet it is the same thing I read in other people you have guided: "just that...?", kinda thing.
Yep, go ahead.
Love
...

Ilona
Sep 21

Lets see. Usually people say Yes without but...
Here are the questions.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Do you decide, intend, choose, control events in Life? Do you make anything happen? Give examples from your experience.

6) Anything to add?

Please answer in full, when ready.

Much love.
...

Hernan 
Sep 22 

Yes, you know what I mean. "Couldn't be just that, could it?". I read others have that kind of attitude.

1.Nope. None . Never.

2.Unquestioned belief. That there is a headquarter. An introjection of what we experience in early days. Parents, etc., treat themselves and us as separate entities. We cannot identify with the body completely. So there's a smeared identification with personality. If we ever question that, then it poses several contradictions. We think we can solve them with a witness. If that is called into question, the last resource would be the presence, being, aliveness. But, of course, it doesn't have the characteristics we invest that I with. Open one box...just to find another box...just to find another box...Everything kept in place by that placid, cozy, convenient, assumption-based ignorance.
And of course there is the huge influence of language.

I am coming back to, "but..." My part of the deal is to look and be clear, ain't it?
What do I feel? Lightness. Warmth. A smile from within. It was coming up when thinking,"do you realize there's no more to seek?" A while ago, I noticed it when ,"no I to take decisions......". Courage. Several -for me- long periods of resting mind observing, or rather, being (and not a trace of an I showing up). Not being upset for the opposite, periods of relentless thoughts, or rather, being thrust into them. Confidence in being able to discover, see by myself, try and come up with approaches which seem good tools. Enjoying the investigation, as opposed to the usual thing for me- this is important so I SHOULD do it, with all the weight of that attitude. And thereby spending a lot of time in it. Not upset for not awakening on time, for instance- a general relaxing the struggle. Also, though it is too early, a sense that all the ways structure and plans of life, now... No need to be particularly here. I'm OK wherever it may be. Not tied.

I had not think on the topic. Quite a number of changes... So, why "but..."? Well, for one, I didn't think on the changes. Then, also, I am now in retreat. I only had to go down once, since we started. And nothing challenged my ego, then. And on a couple of instances, on the phone and net, I could see how alive and kicking are ego reactions.

Now, a while ago, I was pondering on 5). The tough one for me. Thoughts came of today coming to know I may be in trouble in terms of visa, and having to decide how to deal with it and where to go in a few weeks. "Well, I need to solve that, don't I ? Sure I prefer to say,'couldn't care less', ignore it. And then get into trouble and regret it." Only then kicked in the thought of,"nobody is saying anything about decisions, it is just regarding an unwarranted 'I' who calls the shots. Some thing else than the thoughts themselves." Such a strong habit. I guess for quite some time after going through the gate this is the, or one of the main jobs.
And , as for the previous paragraph, correct me if I'm wrong, you are not saying people, "you are done", but rather, "you are good to go". And undeniably, it is not a bad start...

That much for 3) and 5).

4) From all the circumstances , and they were many , when I laughed, it was seeing how ludicrous it is t have been hoisting a goal far beyond my reach. And how incredible simple was the solution: dropping it. From there to the other side of the equation: 'I'. How our experience is so much at variance with the ideas of what 'I's supposed to be.

But I believe meeting my teacher the previous 2 days set the stage, somehow. For the disillusion. There were also there some layers of projection that crumbled down.

Love.
H

Now I see maybe 2) is not complete. I´ll complete it tomorrow.
...
Hernan 
Sep 23

How does it work...? As an overzealous boss who thinks he knows how to do things well and doesn't trust others because of the errors they might commit. Therefore, he is nosing everywhere continuously. Always burdening himself unnecessarily, always fearing what might happen if he doesn't do so. Stressed out..
I mean... .this guy wants to take credit of even seeing and reminding and what not...

I guess that's it.
I feel a little as if I had a very difficult relationship with, say, a partner. Full of friction, misunderstanding, lack of dialogue. And quite suddenly, a very spacious thing opens up. And, in a sense, both are the same, but somehow you don't blame, argue, etc., anymore. I accept her faults. And mine. Even with a smile. We are friends again.
That kind of feeling.

Love.
What's your experience, Ilona? Does this only work as a Seeker Syndrome Buster? What about those not infected? Very little use. I read on the "What would you say..."page, I think, some saying , "If you want to be happy...", which of course include all humans - and not humans, but we have a little trouble communicating with. I read a few on the GG book , and you considered most or all , needing just a little push.

Ilona
Sep 24

Hi Hernan.

Thank you for beautiful answers. Yes, you are good to go :)
This is only a beginning of opening and exploring how life is without the belief in separation and control. Enjoy the ride!

From your answers I can see that gate was crossed. It always seems easy when you read someone else's journey through the gate, but of course it's not possible to judge from words how it was for them, it appears easy and fast but it's not necessarily so. All we can know is how it is for us. For me it was 4 months of cutting through beliefs that I was full of and that bloody hurt. Then one look directly at no self and recognition that there never was a separated entity in charge happened. Since then life has a different flavor. Seeking dropped at that instant of seeing, home was found. The shift was very subtle and I had no idea at the time of what is next, but I knew I have to share this with as many people as possible. And I'm so delighted, that you see this too.. Simple, profound, obvious.

All those hidden beliefs will come to fall, some fall of without much drama, some need investigation and focus, all that is not accepted still will come up to be accepted. It's a wild journey ahead. The over zealous boss may still raise his head and fight, but now it can be appreciated and honored as part of everything.

The ego is no longer yours. It's just a pattern of behavior when painful points are pressed. And it will continue to react, till beliefs are there. This is now clean up time :)

I usually put the conversations up on my blog, is this ok with you? I can use your name or whatever name you like. It may help someone else to look.

Much love !

Hernan
Sep 26 

Hi Ilona.
Thank you for this letter. I was going to ask you how was it for you and now what is next. I f you have some other suggestions to read...
Is there anything from the others who are on the wild journey ahead'?  Partly for myself. Partly to know it's scope, for others. That is why I asked about it's success with those who are not seekers. 
Are there not many who mess it up and return to square one( that is never true, but 'looking like')?
Or at least, stranded there? You seem to have complete confidence in that everyone is going to walk his path. And that no one needs any guidance. Not surprising when I think in what you are doing.
Anyway I have begun to recommend it. And I can think of maaaaany who could benefit enormously.

And also was going to complete the simile: then one day, the boss stressed himself out and is sent to rest by his doctor. When he comes back, he finds his employees have managed perfectly, ney, even outcome is better, not to mention the whole atmosphere has changed. Everyone is relaxed, enjoying their job and the friendship that has developed. :-D

Yep, the noose of circumstances is tightening; the visa issue seems to be, or could become serious. So a tad anxious....And yet... It is all right. I'll do my best to solve it. This will be THE test. It looks good.

It is hard to believe.
I can't thank you enough. I hope at some point to do it for others. And meanwhile, will be suggesting acquaintances to go through it.

Much love.
H

Yes , sure, with my name it's Ok. You can title it: "If this guy for which almost nothing works got it, then you sure have a chance". Or : "Hopeless seeker since age 10..." Ha!
...

Ilona

Thank you Hernan. I will put conversation in the next few days, it's busy times here..

Once other guides read it, they may have questions, if not, it will invite you to LU groups. There are many people that you can share with. Each character has a unique path and unfoldment, many are just after 'the gate' that will be interesting to connect with.

There are various groups for explorations further. What's next- life brings it the next step. Some have a honeymoon period, some don't. Some have a dramatically collapse of beliefs some gentle, fun times ahead, that's for sure.

When looked back, you will notice how certain patterns are no longer there, they just drop. Some need intense looking and questioning beliefs. It's an interesting journey and it's only started!

Some see it deeper then others and some fall back into -I haven't seeing it- trap. Some never have any doubt at all. It's really is unique. How it is for you no one else can experience.

You can always write to me..

Much love


No comments:

Post a comment