Suketu: The Intense Process Of Inquiry Simply Stopped Completely

Suketu 


Dear Ilona

My friend Marty in the UK guided me recently through your seven steps towards liberation. I am writing to you to express my gratitude to you for writing these steps. I am also writing to find out if you think I have gone through the gate and/or what I may need to work on next to do so – including afterwards – to progress further.

Marty kindly passed on your questions to me. I mean the questions you give to people when they contact you after they feel that they have gone through the gate.

Here are my answers. I would be very grateful if you were to look at them.

1.       Is there a separate entity, self, me, I at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

I cannot sense a separate entity or self. There is thought; there are emotions, perceptions. There is choice as well but no self making choice in the sense of being in control. I looked this closely. When walking in a park there was a 'toot' sound in the distance. Upon noticing the sound my mind immediately turned to it and labelled it with 'a train'. I didn't make that decision to turn attention towards the sound, nor towards labelling it. It's the same with all the sense impressions that I have investigated.

I cannot discover a self inside or outside of myself, as it were. There never was a self. If there had been one I couldn't have let go of one without dying or changing in some sense. Yet now my experience appears to be the same as before except without the pressure and restlessness that I used to experience.

2.        Explain in detail what the illusion of a separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

The illusion of a separate self: I used to believe in having a 'me' that is thinking and driving my experience, in control of what I feel, think and do. I used to think that this was the case with everyone else. There were thoughts 'by me' that seemed to prove that it existed. "I am choosing to do this or that" for example. I used to believe that this 'me' was somehow inside my body but at the same time in control, lasting throughout time. The same 'me' as when I was a child. In this way being separate.

Now I see it differently. There is my body, sense impressions, feelings, thoughts and different states of mind, happy, sad etc. There is locality, i.e I am sitting at the table writing this, I am not sitting at a beach for example. There is temporarily as well. It is night time. These are real to me. However, I cannot locate a self that is above and beyond these experiences. Apart from these experiences there isn't anything that I can sense at the moment.

I can still think "I am doing such and such" but apart from doing 'I' is just a label, a thought. There is choice being made, yes, but it's somehow being made from the sum total of all sorts of conditions, not separate from these. I don't understand it really.

On the outside everything is the same. On the inside it's totally different.

3.       How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from  before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

I believe I went through the gate maybe three days ago.

I was taken by surprise that the intense process of inquiry simply stopped completely. It was as if the winds that had been blowing inside my experience ever since I remember had ceased and all came to a total stillness. For two days I kept listening for the usual noise inside. "Self? Where are you? Are you there?" And I keep hearing nothing, just stillness. No pressure or restlessness having to do something, to be in the next place, to feel certain emotions or to seek a particular mood. All this has completely stopped. What a relief!

There is a growing confidence that I have gone through the gate. I have noticed that previous preoccupations don't have the same pull as before. For example, I used to be hooked onto watching a TV programme called Strictly Come Dancing, watching every episode every single day. Now that's far less important. I can take it or leave it. I like the series but the compulsion to keep up with the daily episodes has gone.

Last night I led a workshop helping people to re-vision their lives. I am a chiropractor and the technique we use helps people to transform physically, emotionally, mentally even spiritually. It goes well with Buddhist beliefs. I noticed that I could talk to people in a much more direct way, calling them to action, holding them account to their own values, without me worrying nearly as much as I used to about how I may come across or what they might think of me. Far less self-concern involved.

There is relief I experience whenever I remind myself that there is no fixed self, there is only a continuous flow of experience. I can feel that this means that there is now no limit to changing completely, to losing any habit or resistance that is unhelpful or doesn't accord with reality. It's wonderful. And I can see that others, everybody, is just the same.

Unskillful actions seem to have become more painful. I spoke harshly to my wife last night and I was concerned to apologize fully and quickly to her. More so than previously.

4.       What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

It wasn't a big push close to the gate at all for me. My experience was smoother than that. Everything went quiet. I observed dogs being dogs, people walking in a park being people, trees being trees. All simply grow and develop, then grow old and die. Nobody tells them how. We all just do it. No self needed. There never was one. I kept reflecting on this. It was as if I had been pushing a large ball up a smooth hill the shape of an inverted bowl. It had been hard work facing my fears and expectations, looking at my experience with total honesty. Then I came close to the apex of the bowl and the effort moving the ball became imperceptible. I wasn't sure which side of the apex (the gate) I was on. I only sensed I was near it and kept looking for a self.

The following day I noticed that the noise or wind inside me had stopped. That the whole enquiry had completely stopped. Very surprising.

5.       Do you decide, intend, control events in life? Do you make anything happen? Give examples from your experience.

I have talked about this earlier. There are decisions being made all the time. For example there was a decision to write to you tonight even though I thought I'd wait until next week. But those decisions doesn't amount to control. That's impossible. How exactly the decision to write to you tonight came about I don't actually know. It's like becoming aware or present after day dreaming. I don't decide to become aware. It just happens. Once having become aware I may intend to stay aware. And later I'll become aware again and with that I notice that I had been day dreaming again. I didn't decide to go day dreaming either. So, what is happening? I am not sure. I just know that there is no 'self' in charge here.

6.       Anything to add?

Just to say a very big THANK YOU to you, Ilona, for writing the seven steps to liberation and for emphasizing that it is quick to do  and definitely accessible. I had been a Buddhist practising meditation, studying Buddhism a lot and doing loads of things for twenty years and not got any closer. This is a great gift and I look forward to deepening it in time and to passing it on to others in due course.

May all find liberation!

Suketu

P.S.: After writing this last night I had a nightmare and lay awake for a long time during the night. There as fear, frustration with the disturbed sleep and I realised that I was expecting my sleep to be better after the gate. How foolish of me. I am chuckling at myself as I am writing this. It does mean though that I am now more able to chose the best conditions for setting up better sleep. I mean, simply watch what I dwell on late before going to sleep, not drinking a cup of tea which can wake me up and so forth. It’s a clearer choice. I hope this helps.

Ilona
Hi Suketu (what a beautiful name)

Thank you so much for email.
If seeking stopped, that's it. :) simple. Instead of trying to work out what is happening intellectually you can always just look and see.

I'm very happy for you and your friends. Big smile!

Yeah, there will be lots of orphaned beliefs showing up, like the 'good sleep' thing, all just coming to be looked at and released. Sometimes it may be intense. Other times smooth. It's all just happening by itself. Old beliefs will be falling off, some will need a bit more looking. But I see you are through.

Welcome home!
From here on the journey changes and there will be many surprises and realisations. :)

Would it be ok with you if I shared this on my blog? It is truly inspiring.
I can use your name or whatever name you choose.
sending lots of love.

Suketu 
Hi Ilona

What a delight to hear from you so quickly! Thank you so much for your kindness.

Of course I would be happy to share my communication with others on your blog. Just use my Buddhist name, that’ll be fine. (It means Lamp of Virtue, quite a name to live up to.)

I am so excited about the next stage of the journey. I listened to your interview today on Buddha at the Gas Pump and the most part that struck me most was the lovely, free laughter from both of you. Very attractive.

How do I sign up with the Aftercare forum and as well as on Facebook? I don’t understand how I can become part of the community in this way?

Many thanks for your confirmation and encouragement. I do look forward to having more contact with yourself and others in the community, maybe help others to go through the gate as well when I can. Do you ever do things like retreats or meetings in person? It would be lovely to meet you one day.

With many best wishes

Suketu

Werner: Thoughts Are Not What Knows

Werner wrote to me in February, we talked a bit, there was a break and then we talked some more. Here is the beginning and the end of our conversation. 

Werner

Dear Ilona,

I read on your blog that you are not taking new people for guiding, but I still feel drawn to get in touch with you directly. You have been my main guide in my experiences with LU. After I discovered LU for real at the end of last December, it was your “Start Here” blog post that I worked with primarily. It turned out to be a highly reliable guide and built a lot of trust.

Now I feel it would be helpful to confirm where I am at, and get in touch with others who went through the process or are interested in it.

A bit about me:

I was a spiritual seeker for about 40 years. When searching for answers to teenage problems I first looked in psychology. After reading "Autobiography of a Yogi" the search started to become spiritual. This lead to a long involvement with serious spiritual path. At some point that came to a dead end, and the focus shifted to other spiritual teachings and teachers.

I downloaded the Gateless Gatecrashers pdf in the middle of last year, but at that time was more drawn to Nisargadatta, some of whose books I found at the same time.

At the end of December I was looking for a book to read on a trip and remembered the GG book. I looked at it again and checked out the LU website, and suddenly felt very drawn to it. It felt like the logical next step. Nisargadatta’s “Whatever you think yourself to be, you are not” resonated with me, and LU looked like an approach to clarify exactly that in my own experience.

Now the LU approach made so much sense. Highly specialized, a laser-like focus on just this one aspect of being, without trying to sell a whole life philosophy (or anything at all), without the need to quiet the mind or fight it – all of this resonated so deeply and made me feel: yes, I want to try that. Just the simplicity of it already felt liberating.

I came across your blog post "Start Here". The steps you gave made sense and I liked that I could go through them by myself, as I find it challenging to post personal matters on public forums.  So I worked with your instructions for several weeks, doing the steps as fully and honestly as I could, writing down whatever came up for myself. In parallel I read the Gateless Gatecrashers book and some additional blog posts of you and others.

I found it especially helpful to look at expectations about liberation, enlightenment, waking up. In 40 years of spiritual search I had collected a lot of them. Separating the seeing of the exclusionary nature of the me-thought from all expectations of effects that would have was very very important. It is brilliant that you address this so clearly.

Going through the steps has led to some significant realizations and shifts.

I came to clearly see that everything mind considers to be "me" really is just thoughts, feelings, and sensations. I could clearly observe how an experience happens and then a thought arises and attaches an "I" or "me" to the experience. I could also see that there is awareness and a sense of being, but it can't be grasped by the mind, can't be described by any labels. It is rather that thoughts and labels get their life from being seen by it.

I also came to realize that seeing this illusion of me does not magically resolve  personality, mind, coping mechanisms, survival strategies, habits, fears, etc. Some people seem to experience bigger shifts in these areas than others, but these effects don't mean anything about the seeing of the me-illusion itself.

There is much more to say, but I will try to put some of it in my answers to the questions you usually ask people at the end of your guiding.

1) Is there a separate 'me' 'I' 'self' , at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

I got to see that what is habitually taken as "me" is really a bundle of thoughts, feelings, and sensations. When inspected closely, there is no real entity in any of them.

There also is an aliveness, awareness, sense of being, that is not graspable by thoughts and cannot adequately be described by any labels.

2) in the experience, is there an experiencer? Is it body that experiences or is the body the experienced?

There is an experiencing, without being able to pinpoint this experiencing to a tangible entity. The body is the source of certain sensations, probably also thoughts and emotions, but it is not the body that is aware of them, it's something intangible beyond the body.

3) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works.

Somehow most of us humans seem to be in some kind of trance, mass hypnosis. We take thoughts, feelings, and sensations to be ourselves, even though it can be clearly and easily seen that it is not true. I guess it is a cultural thing, some kind of conditioning that is passed on from generation to generation. And I guess, not being anything tangible at all, there is a temptation and social pressure to identify with something tangible.

4) How does it feel to see this?

It feels different at different times. Sometimes it moves a lot of energy. Sometimes there are doubts. Sometimes it feels like there is some kind of emptiness, space underneath a layer of thought, feelings, sensations.

Even though it is a (more or less) subtle shift of perception, sometimes the implications feel breathtaking, mindboggling, immense.

Mind is still trying to control, holding on, resisting; and also unwinding, adjusting, opening. It is still strong, a lot of attention focused on it. There used to be the conviction that that is a problem (also nurtured by diverse spiritual teachings), now it means less.

There is a lack of interest in the next spiritual idea or concept, but there is an interest in what's going on with me, in my experience and in the experience of others going through a similar process.

There is still avoiding, something my mind has been doing for most of my life, but it is less personal.

There is still fear, insecurity, avoidance, withdrawal, all these unwanted traits of this personality. Sometimes this leads to doubt that seeing actually happened. But there is some kind of empty space underneath them, they can't cling to any kind of core. There used to be convictions that these unwanted experiences meant something about "me". Now these convictions are seen as thoughts, just like the "me" they are referring to.

There is a sense that there are more feelings to feel, more life changes to happen, more previously avoided experiences to have, and that it takes time for them to take place.

There is less pressure to have life a certain way, more openness and curiosity towards what is happening.

There are times of feeling relief, loads falling off, things becoming simpler.

And a lot more.

5)How would you describe it to somebody who has never heard about this illusion but is curious about it.

That would very much depend on the person I am talking with, and the situation.

A somewhat generic description could be like this:

It seems that we humans tend to be in some kind of trance. We were raised with some assumptions about who we are, and all of our actions in life are based on these assumptions. These assumptions include that we are a separate person, who is a body or is in a body, and that we have some degree of control over our life (if we try hard enough).

Even though all of our actions are based on these assumptions, somehow we never examine them to see whether they are actually true.

Well, this is about taking a very close look at the basic assumptions about who we are. There are no special prerequisites except being willing to take this look, to question beliefs, and to be open to discover what is actually going on.

You don't need the grace of a guru to do this - the grace of life is already happening by you being at this place and willing to look.

You don't need to do some special spiritual practices for it, you don't need to become a better person for it, you just need to look.

Everything can be as it is.

You can go about this in different ways.

There is this group of specialists who have come up with different ways to help you look at this.

You can explore by yourself by following the steps described in this blog post:

http://markedeternal.blogspot.de/p/start-here.html.

You can go to a forum on the website www.liberationunleashed.com and get the help of someone in looking at this.

You can read the book The Gateless Gatecrashers.

Or you can do all of this - whatever you feel drawn to.

It may sound too simple, too good to be true. I can only encourage you to give it a try. Skepticism is not a problem. You do not need to leave your critical thinking at the door.

Just look for yourself.

6) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look? Can you describe the moment when seeing happened?

I can't pinpoint a particular moment, but there were a number of seeings that felt really important.

First of all, the whole approach by itself was already liberating, by bringing so much clarity into a topic where there is so much confusion going on, so many opposing views, so many complexities. The complete focus on one basic, foundational illusion made so much sense.

Then at some point there came an understanding about something that had been going on in my life.

About ten years ago there had been a period of a lot of opening, the first time where there was actually inner joy and peace in my life some of the time. A lot of major life changes took place as a consequence, and one of them was that I became involved in a spiritual group. While I was attracted to some things in this group, there also was the feeling that something was wrong, but I couldn't get to the root of it. Peace and joy disappeared, and there was some kind of inner conflict. Even though I had left the group several years ago, this inner conflict still existed.

Suddenly I was able to see that at the core of this was the idea of doership.

Peace and joy had gone hand in hand with an opening without a special agenda. There had been more of a curiosity, and a willingness to look at things how they were, feel what was there to feel, without an agenda about a particular outcome.

The spiritual group stressed the idea that you had to do certain things and be certain ways and follow certain teachings to achieve liberation. They assumed that there is a doer who can do all this, if he tries hard enough.

Now I could see that this was the basic conflict that somehow was still in place, there was more understanding about what had happened, and some kind of energetic knot dissolved.

Another important seeing was related to some mental pressure that was often there in my mind and to some degree still is. There had been the idea that "I couldn't get it" as long as this pressure was there or showed up so regularly.

At some point I could see that this pressure has nothing to do with the reality of who I am. There are impulses, feelings, thoughts that come up, and there are other thoughts and feelings that try to control them. Energies opposing energies, creating pressure. But it doesn't say anything about who I am.

It was very important to look at expectations about liberation. At some point it became real that seeing the exclusionary nature of "me" doesn't necessarily mean that all challenges in life are magically resolved. Life circumstances are still there, personality structures are still there, conflicts are still there, avoided feelings are still there, other people are still there.

It became clear that the effects of seeing are different for different people, and that it is misleading to judge your own seeing because you might not experience the same effects as someone else. 

There had been times of seeing truth before this. In hindsight it seems most important that LU cleared up a lot of confusion and misconceptions around the topic, so that seeing could happen more clearly, and so that some kind of shift could happen in the mind.

7) Anything to add?

I strongly find that the "Start Here" blog post on MarkedEternal should become part of the main LU website, or at least be pointed to from the main site as one possible approach for people who are looking. It turned out to be so effective for me, and not everyone might find it by themselves on the MarkedEternal blog.

I find it so so great beyond words what you guys are doing.

Thank you,

Werner

Ilona

Feb 28

Hi Werner,

Thank you so much for writing to me. It's really great to hear that by following steps, shift has happened. I see from your answers that there is seeing, clarity, and that puts a big smile on my face.

Are there any doubts? Is there any place that still cloudy or all is clear?

What does the word I refer to? In your experience, how is it seen that there is no doer? And what do you see when you look at other, has the view changed?

Was there ever a gate to cross? :)

Sending lots of love.

Werner

Mar 2

Dear Ilona,

Thank you very much for taking the time to read my email and respond so fast.

Here is what has come up for me in response to your questions.

There are still times of doubt, and there is still some cloudiness. There has been seeing, but there also has been an avoidance of feelings related to what was seen. When feelings are triggered and/or mind gets compulsive in an avoidance of feeling, “I” feels more real.

This also happens in interactions with my wife and other people, where both avoided feelings and compulsive thinking are there quite a lot.

It has just been a way of being for so long. It is not as sticky as it was, but old mechanisms are still in place.

Additionally mind has the tendency to conceptualize what was seen, on top of avoided feelings.

So I feel more seeing has to happen. Not to discover that “I” is not real, but to give attention to what is essential in the core of being, so that feelings and thoughts can relax.

As to your other questions, there are no answers at this time. Mind could come up with some “right” answers, but in truth they feel irrelevant right now.

Interesting.

Thanks and love,

Werner

…………………

Hi Ilona,

I want to make one correction to my last email.

“Interesting” at the end is not the right word at all.

All the steps so far have brought me to a place where it has become increasingly clear that there is no other direction to look but right to the core, no matter what.

I don’t have adequate words for that. Despite all the challenges connected with it, it is the right place to be in.

Thank you.

………………A few months and many words later we arrived at this point……………

Ilona

Yes, fear is thoughts about future that trigger sense of insecurity, danger, possible harm. Even thought about the last mistake is subtly about the future, take a look. Give me an example of thought about the past that brings up sensations of fear in the body (not in theory, but in exp)

And take a good look, is there future? What is future made of? When is it? Where? How does it appear in experience? Do images about the future know what is going to happen?

Imagine tomorrow, same time as now. Is that image telling what will definitely happen or it's assuming a possibility? Is there certainty in the images of future? How about security, do these images keep you safe? Does mind still need to look into the future and create possible scenarios in order to protect an image of me?

Have fun with this

Much love.

Werner

There is not really a future. Future is all in thoughts, which are also arising now. Thoughts about future are usually projecting a future from past experiences. They are always assuming a possibility. Sometimes they are close to the actual events, sometimes they are completely wrong.

There is no certainty or security in these images about the future. Sometimes they are useful, e.g. thinking “it could rain” and taking an umbrella on the walk. Often they are unnecessary and not useful at all.

These thoughts and fears are also very engrained, a habitual way of operating for this mind for most of its life.

Ilona 

Yes, there is practical planing and what-if scenarios that only create fear. Thinking about future is fine, it's only when fearful thoughts are believed they become suffering. 

Werner

Yes, I can see that thoughts about past mistakes are subtly about the future. They are about possible consequences of past actions = future.

Right now I don’t find any thoughts that are purely about the past that bring up sensations of fear. If something is completely over and has no chance of impacting the future, there is no fear.

Trying to get rid of them doesn't feel appropriate and creates pressure. I guess the best approach is to just focus back on reality of no me again and again and let the thoughts and fears run their course until they don’t need to be that obstinate any more.

Ilona

Yes, noticing what is here right now. Noticing what hands are doing, what sensations are present. 

Also investigating beliefs help. Like this one- is there future? How is it experienced? What is there that feels insecure and needs to be protected from life?

It looks to me that you are through. Are you? Is search still on?

Sending love.

Werner

When looking strictly now, there is no search.

Search anyway only seems to originate in thought.

On one level it is very clear that I is only a thought.

Ilona

That's it. It takes time to settle. Mind keeps checking till it doesn't. The line is crossed and there is no way back to believe in I entity anymore.  Of course conditioning did not happen in a day so deconstruction does take time too. It's normal.

Everywhere you look there is confirmation and mind acknowledges that. It's part of process of clean up. All beliefs show up sooner or later to be cleaned up.

The shift may be subtle and unnoticeable, but when you look back, it's clear that something is different, some patterns are no longer there, like searching for "who am I?"

Would you like to have a go at final questions?

If not, what is not clear yet?

Werner

It hasn’t sunk in through all layers of thinking and feeling yet, but that’s something that takes time and experience.

It still feels important to acknowledge the reality of no-I.  

Yes, send me questions.

Love.

Ilona

Sweet! Here they are:

Werner

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

No. I is only a thought, an empty thought, that does not refer to a real entity. That is true now and was true in the past. It is not that at one point there was a real entity behind I and then it suddenly disappeared without anyone noticing J

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

When we grow up, we learn to attach concepts to raw sensations. Even now, when focusing on raw touch, sight, or sound, there is no boundary, no person, no place where “I” end and “other” begins. Part of our socialization is attaching concepts to the raw sensations as a way of navigating life.

Certain sensations get the label “arm”, “head”, “foot”, “parent”, etc.  Some labels refer to something that can be experienced in reality, such as “wall”. Other labels refer to thoughts, ideas. “I” is such a label, and it is instilled thoroughly during socialization, with a lot of related concepts that are all based on it. There is nothing real behind the label “I”, and everything based on it is just built on an empty idea.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

It feels freeing to see this. In the last few days there is less conflict, less struggle, more moments of spaciousness, more simplicity. It is not that all the unwanted feelings and thoughts are gone, but they don’t have the same meaning attached as they had before.

The difference from before I started the process is enormous. The spiritual search has basically stopped. I’m not looking for another teaching. There is more clarity, less holding on, more acceptances. And a lot more that doesn't come to mind easily. Oh, the relationship with my wife improved (which is not a small thing).

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

In hindsight the realization of no-I already happened when working with the seven questions on your blog. What kept me struggling was the question whether there were any doubts about this, which caused me to start the inquiry process with you. The process was very helpful and clarifying. I can’t pinpoint a particular moment that did it. There were numerous insights and experiences that were all part of the puzzle.

One important experience was the looking at perception without labeling them, and the realization that there is no boundary between an “I” and the others, there is just a sensation. It only becomes “I sit on the couch” through labeling, a mental process, and part of this process is attaching the labels “I” and “other”. These are helpful concepts for practical purposes, but cause problems when taken for real.

Another important clarification was that thoughts are not what knows. Something else (which cannot be labeled, pointed to, or identified) is aware of thoughts, and may identify with them or not. It is what gives life to thoughts; they don’t have a life or reality on their own. That was a really important distinction, as there was the idea that thoughts have power on their own, and I have a very active mind.

Another important realization was that whatever thoughts or feelings there may be, they don’t change the reality of no-I. With your help I looked a lot, and all kinds of different thoughts and feelings came up. But when looking honestly, there never was an “I” to be found behind any of them.

My mind has the tendency to be very thorough and tries to figure things out. But in some way no-I is beyond the mind, and mind could go on endlessly looking and might not get the certainty it looks for, because it is just not on that level.

At some point it just became clear that nothing more could be gained by looking for “I” or no-I, and that it was due to acknowledge the fact of no-I, no matter what else thoughts might have to say.

5) Do you decide, intend, choose, control events in Life? Do you make anything happen? Give examples from your experience.

Who? “You” is an empty word. There is no separate entity “I” that controls life.

6) Anything to add?

Lots of gratitude. It is so true and real on a very deep level what you do. Essential. Beyond words.

Much love,

Werner

Ilona

Hi Werner,

Thank you very much for answers. I knew it, you are clear and for a while now. It's good to see it all written down, I see that you see and I'm very happy for you!

Could just expand a little on number 5, just with a couple examples from ordinary daily life, that'd be great.

Much love!

Werner 

Hi Ilona,

Thank you! Yes, it’s good to write it down!

Some examples regarding question 5:

When “I” walk, there is walking happening, body is moving, but there is no separate entity that is doing the walking. Usually thoughts arise that claim ownership of the action, “I am walking”, or “I just went to the fridge”, but the “I” these thoughts refer to cannot be found in reality, it is a thought concept.

Same for other activities.

Some actions may occur spontaneously, others may be preceded by a lot of thinking.

But even when “I” make a decision, thoughts may arise before decision, looking at options may occur, at some point decision happens (or not), action follows (or not), and thought of ownership arises, “I decided to do/not do this”, but this “I” is not there if looked for in reality, the only reality of it is the thought “I”. The I-thought actually happens; the content of the thought does not point to something real. There is just emptiness when looking for it.

That’s what it boils down to. When looking honestly and openly for the “me” that controls and lives life, it cannot be found. Life just lives without anyone owning it.

Love,

Werner

Ilona

Hi Werner,

Days seem to flow fast..

Thank you for expanding one this, it's a pleasure to read.

I guess you know what happens next, I am going to ask you if it's ok to make a blogpost out of our long conversation and use some parts of it. And then I can invite you to LU Facebook groups to meet others :) there may be people that are even in you area. It is great to meet others that see that same.

Can I use your name or any different one? People often write to me these conversations are helpful in their own journeys.

It has been a pleasure, Werner. And I'm delighted that gate was crashed!

Werner 

Hi Ilona, 

So good to hear from you.

Yes, it is ok to make a blog post out of our conversation, and you can use my name.

I look forward to meeting others who have seen this – I will even join Facebook for this.

What a journey! So fortunate to have stumbled across this, and so much deepest appreciation and thanks for what you do, and the impact you have had on this facet of life.

Much love,

Werner

.............................

Lots of greatitude to Werner for making LU quote app available for PC and Mac. 

Meg: I Was Surprised How Simple That Was

MEG 
Sep 21

Hi Ilona,
I know my husband, Marty, has been in touch with you recently. I went through the gate with him about 5 weeks ago and I would like to check out if this really is the case. I know that you will probably be busy but would really like it if you had the time to respond to me. I know that it has meant a lot to Marty to have your response particularly as it was on your seven steps.
best wishes,
Meg

Ilona
Sep 21

Hi Meg, so great to hear from you.

It's is a pleasure to meet you and Marty. I'm very happy for both of you.

It would be great if you could answer our last questions. Hehe, don't read your husbands' answers, write what feels true in your experience. I'm looking forward to read that!
......
Please answer in full, when ready.

Much love.


MEG
Sep 29

Hi Ilona,
hope you are well. Lovely to hear from you, thanks for the questions. My answers are below. Didn't find it that easy to put things into words but have done the best I can,
love,
Meg

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?
The idea of me, I, self, is so universally accepted that I had never stopped to think about it before, that was just how it was. When I went looking I was surprised to discover that the ‘I’ that I had thought was running the show could not be found. I took the time I needed to have a good look, it was easy to see that my body wasn't ‘I’ , it’s getting older and certainly wasn't under ‘my’ control, and it seemed very good at doing what it needed to do without any one telling it what to do – digesting food, scratching an itch, walking about. Feelings and emotions too were not under ‘my’ control, anxiety, anticipation, aversion, all arose all by themselves. Thoughts took more looking until I could see that they too bubbled up without the need for someone to think them and flowed on until they ceased of themselves. What I had thought ‘I’ was doing was, in fact, just doing itself. Seeing this I felt a little sad to let ‘myself’ go, an image of taking off and setting down an old brown coat I was fond of.

The week we went through the steps my husband and I would read one of the steps after breakfast and then take the day to think and talk and look, usually, at some point, going for a walk out into a large country park close to where we live. For me understanding on a deeper level can sometimes present itself as an image and on one of these days, as I walked along there was an image of all the aspects that I had identified as ‘me’ falling away – no that’s not me, no that’s not me either, until eventually all that was left was a bright aliveness, and ‘I’ was nowhere to be found. Surprisingly I didn't feel bereft but like a weight off my shoulders, a sense of relief and more space –no ‘me’ to hold up, protect, burnish, adjust, hide bits of.

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

I suppose the illusion of a separate self is just how humans operate. I don’t know when it starts; a baby doesn't have a sense of a separate self when it is born but I don’t know when it develops, certainly by the time language emerges it has begun to form.

In my experience I've

spent a fair bit of time and energy on ‘myself’; developing this bit, trying to suppress that bit, feeling ashamed of this other aspect, polishing it, tending it.

How I see it now is that this body and all the bundle of habits, tendencies, processes etc that I had labeled as ‘me’ is still here doing its thing, nothing has changed in that respect, (and a pretty amazing thing it is too) but that’s what it is – a label for that bundle. I’m not suddenly a blank sheet, but now it’s as if these things have nothing to cling on to. So anxiety about my sons well being still arises but it’s not ‘me’, concern about what people will think, irritation, caring, tending, doubt, all not ‘me’. Also it seems easy to be straightforward with people instead of a tendency to be always careful how I put things because I don’t want people not to like me.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

Before I began the steps I had read one or two accounts in the Gateless Gatecrashers book but once I had decided to follow the steps for myself I stopped reading as I didn't want to have any preconceived ideas of to expect, I wanted to come to it with as few expectations as possible and I think this was helpful. I was surprised at how simple it all was, the sense of relief that there was no ‘me’ to protect and project. There was a sense of space, like being in a big meadow full of flowers, there was tears and laughter too.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over made you look?

Walking in the park, getting out into nature and looking at the trees, the grass, the animals all just being, doing aliveness, without the need for anyone to be in control. An image came to me of a fetus, in my mind’s eye I saw it grow and become a baby and be born and become a child. The mother doesn't grow the developing baby by an act of will, nor does the baby grow itself, but it grows and develops and gets born and becomes a child – my grandchildren came to mind– life expressing itself- how marvelous. Everywhere aliveness, life living itself, expressed as beings, animals, plants. And my heart so full and open. Then a thought that I too was part of this, not separate from it, my being too was just another expression life doing aliveness – and this brought tears and joyful laughter.

5) Do you decide, intend, choose, control events in Life? Do you make anything happen? Give examples from your experience.

My life is going along fine without anyone in control, just as it always has done of course- food gets made, appointments met, meetings attended, tasks completed, children cared for, seeds planted, pots washed. But now there is a sense of going with the flow, letting it unfold, a lightness of touch. Happy to be doing what I am doing. Shortly after ‘the gate’ my husband and I took all five of our grandchildren (aged between 4 and 14 years) camping in a tipi in the Lake District. The facilities were pretty basic, the weather wasn’t too good – cool and sometimes rainy – and the children were just a bunch of children. It seemed very clear that it was all just happening now, things just unfolding of themselves, with no one needing to be in control. And me just going with the flow, enjoying their company, the rain on the roof, watching them asleep.

6) Anything to add?

Thank you. I have spent many years as a Buddhist, going on retreat, meditating, studying, working on ‘myself’ . And then my husband, Marty, came across the LU site and materials and was really fired up by them. At first I wasn't sure if I would do the steps, but I was curious and thought that if I followed them honestly I had nothing to lose. So simple, so straight forward, nothing mystical, just ‘go look’, so I did.

Ilona 
Oct 1

Hi Meg,


Thank you very much for writing all this out. It was a delight to read it.
Would it be OK with you if I put this in my blog for others to read, I can use your name or whatever name you prefer.

I have no questions for you, all looks clear! I'm very happy for both of you.

Much love.

Lakshmi: There Is NOONE...Oh My God!!

Lakshmi

Jul 27

Hello dear Ilona,

I am Lakshmi from Hyderabad, India. I have been going through the articles in your blog for quite sometime. I am also looking but may be not deep, not sure!!

I was waiting for you to help me but  few weeks ago you were not available. I even asked my cousin, Tarun to help me connect to you.

Can you please guide and help me for the shift.

Regards,

Lakshmi  

Ilona

Jul 27

Hi Lakshmi.

Thank you for email.

Yes we can have a conversation, now is a good time.

Tell me a bit about your journey and where you are at the moment. What are you looking for, what do you expect from this process, what do you think this will give you.

Take your time to write down all expectations and find those hidden ones too. Honesty is the key here.

Looking forward to hear from you.

Kind regards

Lakshmi

Jul 29

Hi Ilona,

As I said earlier, since the time Tarun introduced me to this technique, I have been trying to look at things around and yes, I could never find a separate "I" existing and it's always a thought. I am at this stage. I am able to appreciate the labeling the mind does all the time.

I am looking for "I” still.....expecting that i should feel light and easy sometime, may be i am not looking enough so not feeling it right away.

My expectations from this process are like i should be able to enjoy life, should be able to say that life is beautiful as many realized people said it after they got awakened to this truth of life, to be in the happy state irrespective of the on-going life.

I have a habit of reacting to everything around soon so i silently keep expecting this quality of mine to change after this process.....

I hope i spoke with honesty ,

Thanks and many regards,

lakshmi.

Ilona

Jul 30

Hi Lakshmi.

As I said earlier,since the time Tarun introduced me to this technique,i have been trying to look at things around and yes,i could never find a separate "I" existing and its always a thought.

 What is that you find when looking for the I?

I am looking for "I" still.....expecting that i should feel light and easy sometime ,may be i am not looking enough so not feeling it right away.

 What is the first I here, that is looking for the I?

My expectations from this process are like i should be able to enjoy life,should be able to say that life is beautiful as many realized people said it after they got awakened to this truth of life.,

 That's all right :)

to be in the happy state irrespective of the on-going life.

This is not realistic. There is no happy ever after. Life goes on as it does and things happen. It's not about a happy state at all. It's about seeing what is already obvious. 

If you expect that seeing no self is going to give you an eternal bliss, it's just a fantasy. 

I have a habit of reacting to everything around soon so i silently keep expecting this quality of mine to change after this process.....

 Reactions happen when buttons are pressed.  When there are wounds, unresolved issues, repressed feelings, of course, reactions will happen.

I hope i spoke with honesty,

Thank you.

Before we go further, you got to leave all expectations behind. It is not what you expect at all.  Mind can never imagine. And having expectations is trying to fit what is seen into the frame of what it should look like. 

Ok, tell me what comes up, when you let this thought in-

There is no I at all, no separate self, no entity that is in charge of this peace if life, no manager, no controller, no doer, no thinker, no watcher. All there is is life flowing freely as one movement.

Write what reactions to this statement come up.

Sending love.

Lakshmi

Jul 30

Hi Ilona,

what is it that i find when i am looking for I?

I find body, mind, senses exist and doing their job but can’t find an "I" existing. i can see things existing everywhere around but can’t see any I.

What is the first I when looking for I?

Well, i really don’t know but looks like this body, mind complex is the" I" which is looking for an I.....

The mind which is working as "I"??!!

My reactions when i read the statement

I feel shocked, surprised, I feel it's such a joke that there is no self existing, feels like laughing aloud.

feel sad, depressed too, feel painful

feel sick,

feel" then, what now?"

oh my god

How could this be?

This is what i feel as of now.

Love,

Lakshmi.

Ilona

Jul 30

Yeah, it's very simple and not even hidden.

Write more, what do you notice.

Was there ever an I there?

Sending love

Lakshmi

Aug 1

Hi Ilona,

Yes, there is no "I" wherever i see, but yes the "I" THAT IS USUALLY FELT IS THE MIND WITH THIS BODY PROBABLY.

It is very strange to see the affairs happening around. Every concept, movement around revolves around this so called "I"

So much of identification which only gives temporary states of happiness, grief and all other emotions. What are all these faiths, beliefs, relationships for? when there is no "I" existing...

Can illusion of "I" be so powerful that it can dictate everything around?

Its relatively easily to LOOK when i am in a happy or neutral state but LOOKING is so difficult in angry or a sad state or in diseased or suffering state..

Only body, mind, senses, memory exist and are felt and are functioning all the time in the day today affairs.

From the childhood till the present moment all that which is registered through the senses in the memory  is used for living, working, growing etc

Emotions, behavioral patterns, movements all are happening from the stored memory, conditioning....

Noone seems to be having any control over the inputs and the outputs of living and the life....

Everything is just happening and you are a part of it..

like a dry leaf which fell off from the tree into the flowing water....

Lakshmi

Aug 3

Hi Ilona, whatever I look at I feel that other than the existing fact, a picture or the sound there is constant labeling of the mind that goes on and on, the silence is broken with the constant chattering of the mind. the thoughts keep on coming from somewhere, when senses are doing their job, the

thoughts come from our saved memory, past, conditioning, expectations etc .   There was never an "I" because the "I" that was there when I was child was the label to this body mind complex which totally is changed and different from what exists now. This can't be "I”. Was there never any "I"? Thoughts, feelings, emotions, actions, reactions are happening as a game, as a sequence, as a jigsaw puzzle. it is just happening, going on and on. Noone seems to be having any control. When there is no "I"...then there is only LIFE going on...

Ilona

Aug 3

Hi Lakshmi.

Hi Ilona, whatever I look at I feel that other than the existing

fact, a picture or the sound there is constant labeling of the mind

that goes on and on, the silence is broken with the constant chattering of the mind.

Yes, there is a voice talking, labeling everything and telling stories.

the thoughts keep on coming from somewhere,

Take a good look- where are thoughts coming from? What is behind them? Is there a thinker?

when senses are doing their job, the thoughts come from our saved

memory, past, conditioning, expectations etc.

So it appears, but have a closer look. Is there 'stored memory' in your experience? Is there past? Future? Is there a container that contains thoughts?

Is there anyone that the voice is talking to? Is anyone listening? Are you the voice that keeps talking?

Examine this closely and write to me the answers that feel true to each question.

  

Sending love.

Lakshmi

Aug 10

Hi Ilona,

Been busy last few days. but looking most of the time and its been a very lovely experience of feeling light. no emotion seem to be staying for long. the answers for the doubts that come up seem to be effortlessly flowing in and making it easy...

it feels too good, trust me!

will write to you in more detail in next 2 days

Thanks,

Regards,

Lakshmi.

Ilona

Aug 10

Sounds lovely!

Tell me more :)

Lakshmi

Aug 12

True, the life seems to happen....

going on and on..

but this mind takes the charge, labels and tells stories all the time. It does appear there is a THINKER but that is again the mind which is saying i believe. The body with mind and senses is the thinker, actor, feeler, reactor and all looks like it projects and reacts, imagines, creates....yes!

because otherwise there is noone.!!!!

The world, the people, the relationships, their qualities looks like jigsaw puzzle pieces fitting into each other and collectively appearing as the world around..

There is no THINKER except the interference and chattering of the mind all the time,...

Oh god!!! but the identification is too much that it appears as the only real thing existing.. and spins a web of world around that "I"

But, Yes when i look it seems to be clear.

In spite of all this still it becomes difficult to look in sad moods....so called the hurt moods and the sad moods.... but yes the answer does come almost immediately..

All the time the question comes who is there to hurt and who is there to get hurt....

Vowwww!!!

Is this True????

Is it getting clearer?

Anyways, Thanks Ilona!!!

Regards,

Ilona

Aug 12

Hi Lakshmi.

True,the life seems to happen....

going on and on..

but this mind takes the charge, labels and tells stories all the time.

That is it's job, one of the functions is labeling everything, describing experience. It recognizes what is seen, heard, experienced.

It does appear there is a THINKER but that is again the mind which is saying i believe. The body with mind and senses is the thinker, actor, feeler, reactor and all looks like it projects and reacts, imagines, creates....yes! 

So it appears, but is it true, really?

because otherwise there is noone.!!!!

Yes, there is no one. It's not that something is absent, there is nothing there, emptiness.

but the identification is too much that it appears as the only real thing existing. And spins a web of world around that "I"

What is I? Take a closer look.

But, Yes when i look it seems to be clear.

See, every time you look it's clear.  So keep looking in every situation where it appears that there is a doer, choose, manager, etc. each identification is an invitation to look deeper. 

In spite of all this still it becomes difficult to look in sad moods....

The thing with feelings is that all they want is to be felt fully and openly. There is no need to analyse feelings. It's an energetic thing going on. When you name the emotion it appears solid. When you don't name it, it's a movement of sensations in the body. Feel is as it comes, when it comes and it will pass quickly. You don't need to do anything else. Just feel.

so called the hurt moods and the sad moods....but yes the answer does come almost immediately..

All the time the question comes who is there to hurt and who is there to get hurt....

There is no who. So asking who? question is in itself creating an illusion.  Is there a feeler? Is there an I here right now? Is there a doer of this action (reading right now)

Is it getting clearer? 

Yes! Keep digging. 

Much love.

Lakshmi

Aug 16

Hi Ilona,

There seem to be nothing  existing other than this body mind complex

and the world just runs on the constant chattering of the mind

MIND, yes, THE MIND is the one that runs the world nothing else is present...

the nonstop stories, expectations, chattering, commentary, of the mind that’s happening...

Everything that’s happening is just with this mind that’s talking,

the mind orders and the body reacts...

The mind is conditioned day after day and it talks.....

Every being is a complex of body, mind and senses together..

No there is no doer to this action of mine right now, whether its reading the mail, typing it. Everything is happening...

There is continuous happening and all else is the commentary of the mind, not real....

Thanks Ilona,

LOVE,

Lakshmi

Aug 17

The "I" is just a thought from the MIND

This thought is the strongest that can ever happen...

and then the drama of the mind unfolds around this "I'

Its just too much...

The world is but the combination of our thoughts, words, actions...

thoughts mostly look like coming from somewhere not known....

Ilona

Aug 17

There seem to be nothing existing other than this body mind complex

Really? So body exists and nothing else does?

Interesting.

and the world just runs on the constant chattering of the mind

MIND ,yes, THE MIND is the one that runs the world ,nothing else is present...

 What is this mind you are talking about? What does word mind point to?

the nonstop stories, expectations, chattering, commentary, of the mind that’s happening...

Are stories all there is? Take a look at what is underneath the stories. Does experience need stories in order to be happening?

Test with senses. When you taste something, does experience of tasting require a story to make it happen?

Get out of the head into sensations and see what is there. 

Sending love

Ilona

Aug 17

The "I" is just a thought from the MIND

This thought is the strongest that can ever happen...

No it is not.  It's an empty thought. What is that makes it strong?

The world is but the combination of our thoughts, words, actions...

The thoughts about world create an image. But there is something else here besides mind created image. What is here now? Take a Look.

Thoughts mostly look like coming from somewhere not known....

And take a good look, where thoughts are coming from.  Look till you see. 

Lakshmi

Aug 17

No, the experience doesn't need any stories... experience of tasting doesn't need a story definitely.

The experience is going on and will go on without all this commentary

The mind i meant means is the bundle of thoughts..

The body i meant is this physical body which i can see with the senses..

the sensations are happening and it is happening, no stories or anything required for this.

The "I" is just an empty thought but gets stronger with the stories, desires, expectations etc

yes, otherwise it is an empty thought.

will keep writing ,

thanks, Lakshmi..

Ilona

Aug 18

The mind i meant means is the bundle of thoughts..

What is a bundle of thoughts? Is that not just another thought?

Check if there is some kind of container that holds thoughts in a bundle?

The body i meant is this physical body which i can see with the senses..

Have a good look, what is the I that sees? What is seeing? What is looking? Is there a line between I and senses in experience?

the sensations are happening and it is happening, no stories or anything required for this.

The "I" is just an empty thought but gets stronger with the stories, desires, expectations etc

yes, otherwise it is an empty thought.

What is that makes I thought stronger? Take a close look here.

Sending love.

  

Lakshmi

Aug 19

Hi Ilona,

Yes, there is no container of thoughts definitely...

it’s just another thought or a label  given to the thoughts that flow probably..

no neither the "I" nor the senses seem to be existing as such except that the actions are happening and the labeling goes on which we express in words and names...

No there is no line, the senses are acting, the actions are happening and the rest is the labeling or the commentary....

Will write more,

Thanks,

Love ,

Ilona

Aug 19

Dear Lakshmi,

Good work.

Let’s explore language today.  Notice how language creates a doer that is doing the action. See how subject is part of labeling action.

I breathe- breathing is happening.

Is it I that does breathing?

Does it matter which words describe experience? Does description affect what is happening?

There is an exercise in this post. Do it and write to me what you noticed

http://markedeternal.blogspot.co.uk/2012/05/labels.html

Explore language while talking to people, listening, reading and so on.

Sending love.

Lakshmi

Aug 20

Hi Ilona,

Yes, i just did the exercise in the post you sent,

When i was doing the first part, I felt a sort of palpitations and pain here and there,

but when i did the second part there was a sort of emptiness and hollowness and vacuum in the body as if it was all empty inside...

What i felt at the end when i compare is that actions happening without me are happening anyways and truer than the actions with me because labels are not affecting the experience and only are used for describing.

"I" IS JUST USED FOR COMMUNICATION, DESCRIPTION.....it doesn't have any existence

Love,

Lakshmi

Ilona

Aug 20

Nice! Yes, description is practical and useful in communication. :) you are getting close

How about word I, is it empty or it points to a separate entity that life is happening to?

When word I is used in description of what is happening, does it mean, that the entity appears?

sending love.

Lakshmi 

Aug 26

Hi Ilona,

The word "i "is definitely empty except that it is used for communication or referred to that particular body mind complex.

It is empty because things happen even when it is used or not.

"I" is an other thought and with a big commentary around it constantly.

No entity does "I" refer to. nothing appears or disappears with "I"

Whatever is there is there irrespective of "I’. Whatever has to happen will be happening.

Love,

Lakshmi

Ilona

Aug 26

Yes!

How does it feel to see this? Are you noticing anything different in every day experience?

Can you say, that YES, it clear, there is no separate entity I. If not, is there anything else that needs to be looked at?

Sending Love.

Lakshmi

Aug 26

Yes ilona, things are different in everyday experience.

especially the answers seems to be flowing in the moment a question arises for day to day incidents..

and the same thing is proven again and again that it is all a game of the mind...

As of now i don’t feel there is a separate I ...but sometimes  at times of hurt the "I" seems real till looking happens again..

Thanks so much, how could you make it all so simple.....i know there is noone to make it happen, IT HAPPENS....

Please help till the gate is crossed.....

Much Love,

Ilona

Aug 27

Hi Lakshmi,

Keep looking, what is behind the hurt when it arises, see how it passes when it's noticed. Mind is checking this in every situation.

I is never real, sometimes it's a habitual assumption that it comes back, but as you notice, when looked, it's never found.  After a while this looking drops, but don't wait for it, it may take long time, or not. 

The hurt is a reaction to a touch of painful spot. You may look a at it and thank it for showing up, it's an opportunity to release it. instead of no you can say yes to intense feelings and just feel them openly, rather than resisting.  Each reaction is an invitation to look. And feelings pass quickly if there is no grasping. Surrendering is what is left when resistance to what is ends. And when feelings arise, give them space, feel them.

Are there separate entities in other people? How do you see your closest ones? How about strangers on the street?

  

Much love. 

  

Lakshmi

Aug 28

Amazing! superbly told!!

Will answer the questions soon..

Thanks, Regards, Love,

Lakshmi

Sep 4

Hi Ilona,

yes, the hurt just passes when i start looking though it is taking time to look during those times...

things changed ilona and its just superb, is it so simple?

There is no "I” yes,!!!

The reactions are passing easily, feeling light .

no, there cannot be any separate entities in other people, just the same body mind complex....differently conditioned, so reacting differently...otherwise the machines are the same...

yes, my closest ones and he strangers are the same like what i described but with the close ones there is this body attachment and love, other feelings..

but it feels easy to understand everyone, closest ones and strangers ...because it’s all happening and there is noone to do anything.

Thanks,

Love,

Ilona

Sep 6

Sweet! Yes, there is no one here doing anything. All is one movement of life.

Are you ready for the final questions?

If not, what else we can look at?

Sending love. 

Lakshmi

Sep 9

Hi Ilona, want to look into few more aspects before the final one!!!

will keep writing ..

Thanks for all this

Love,

Ilona

Sep 9

Share with me, what are you noticing..

Love

........................................

Lakshmi

Sep 19

Hi Ilona,

Been looking! Just few thoughts i would like to share ...

The questions about the horrible things that happen around us in this world disturbs..... Like the rapes, murders,... these things hurt and makes it difficult to understand that things happen and deeds done but no doer!!!

Well, as i write thoughts come that yes this is it... but the doubting mind interferes .

but ilona, i can’t stop saying that this is an amazing drama unfolding in front of our eyes.

and you made it so simple...

please tell me what is it i need to do for that final step

What is all this? feeling responsible, sacrifice etc etc used so much in Indian context...

man made ???

good and bad? help and hurt? they vary acc to people, situations etc

These things  are confusing when looked at...

and yes, all this is the mind chattering...

and the actions are a result of the conditioning ....

all actions result of those thoughts on which there is no control

then the reactions to all these actions.. it looks a cycle.

Lakshmi

Sep 21

Hi Ilona,

I am ready for the final questions...

Ilona

Sep 21

Sorry for delay with answer.

I'm very happy to hear that you are ready for the last questions. If something is not clear, answers will let me see what.

Here they are :)

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Do you decide, intend, choose, control events in Life? Do you make anything happen? Give examples from your experience.

6) Anything to add?

Please answer in full, when ready.

Much love.

Lakshmi

Sep 24

Hi Ilona,

firstly,Thank you for all this.

1. No there is no self, i, me anywhere. Life is going on according to how it is supposed to be. There are different body mind organisms with its own conditioning, programming, memory, just doing what has to be done all around. Other than this there is no separate I, Me or Self....yes there was" I "before i started looking for it, The "I" that was there was what i thought was the life force which made my body move and mind think....That consciousness is still there but there is no "I" now. That consciousness is not separate it is universal and is THERE......That’s it....

2. The Illusion of separate self is that I AM SEPARATE ENTITY AND I EXIST  AND AM THE DOER ETC....ya and may be it starts from the time our mind starts thinking, working even as a child.... It makes me feel that i am separate individual, I am responsible for my actions, to plan, to think, to expect, see good and bad, label,...

Now, I see it as just a THOUGHT, THE MIND PROJECTION, that’s all... it only exists as a thought. Can’t find it otherwise, neither in me nor others. Everyone seems to be a programmed machine consisting of body and mind working according to the circumstances and conditioning.

3. It feels very light, beautiful because there is no burden of any doership in me no 'I' even in others so there is noone doing anything to anyone,. The answers come so easily to the questions which rise in day today life.. the perception changed ....and can’t believe that it is so simple.

There are no serious complaints, no burden, no serious goals, no feeling hurt like before, no holding responsible anyone for the deeds .... though its not always but many times. Because every answer flows in to balance the emotion.... i am sorry i hope you can understand what i mean.

  

4. cant really pinpoint the last bit, because every step kept pushing, looking and looking at every step possible helped me, looking especially when i am hurt helped me to realize and understand better ...i am sorry that i am unable to pinpoint the last bit,

5. oh no!!!! i definitely cannot control ...of course i even cannot decide, intend, choose too because they all happen according to the circumstances, conditioning, etc which is just not in my control..

some of my experiences in life when i look at the past ..... like i always wanted to become a doctor and practice but yes i did become but not practicing like what i thought,,, sitting at home and taking care of kids and the other family members because i lost my dad and brother at a crucial stage in my life and life is just flowing with No ME, NO DECIDING, NO CHOOSING, NO CONTROL, though the mind seems to be doing this by saying' I EXIST"....which i realize now that this also is another "THOUGHT"

Many Incidents in life in the past and the present again and again show that life just happens......

The one quote that just that keep ringing is EVENTS HAPPEN, DEEDS ARE DONE BUT THERE IS NO DOER and no doer for me is no 'I' no SELF...

This incident of meeting you, writing to you, looking at life ....All this also is HAPPENING.....

Thanks and much love,

Ilona

Sep 25

Beautiful, thank you for answers, Lakshmi.

I would like you to take a look little bit closer at this- was there ever an I? And what is the I that was looking for I?

I can see that a shift has happened, just need to look a bit more. Awakening is a process and it keeps going..

"Everyone seems to be a programmed machine consisting of body and mind working according to the circumstances" - yes, you can say that, but zoom out a bit, look at totality of movement, including this body, is there a line between this machine and another machine?

Is it body that is experiencing and reacting? Is there a line between reaction and circumstances?

When you look at what is looking, what is there?

Much love!

Lakshmi

Sep 25

Hi Ilona,

"I" is another thought looking for "I"

it’s all the mind that’s working...thought by thought

All thoughts are coming as questions and answers too.

There was never an "I"

There is a separation in terms of bodies but otherwise the rest is all the same... the functioning is the same, the thoughts which come is anyways beyond control of any machine and when there is no "I" for me then there is no any other "I"

The experiences and reactions are happening according to the thoughts that come from somewhere on which there is no control and its the thought of "I" that is reacting because of the identification with body.

Yes, the circumstances are already there, beyond control and the reaction comes because of the 'ego'.....the thought "I", the identification.

there is noone who is looking, looking is happening.....

Thank you so much,

Love,

Lakshmi 

hmm!!

  

Ilona

Sep 25

Thank you for answers.

There is something subtle that I invite you to look at:

You say: it’s the thought of "I" that is reacting because of the identification with  body.

Say word I, loudly or quietly a few times. Is this thought reacting?

Can a thought identify with body? What is that identifies with the body? What is behind identification? Can you look closer here, is there an ego? Or just more thoughts?

What do you notice?

Sending love.

Lakshmi

Sep 26

Hi Ilona, No, the thought I isn't reacting. There is no

identification, There is noone at all. only more and more thoughts

that's all. There is NOONE...oh my god!! Yes, NOONE indeed.. Love, Lakshmi

Ilona

Sep 26 

That is it and all is functioning just fine..

Welcome home. And you know, it's just a beginning, a fresh start to new way of living.

I'm delighted for you.

I usually put these conversations on the blog, would it be ok with you? I can use your name or any other name you prefer. If other guides have questions that may ask, if not I will invite you to join LU Facebook groups.

Sending love!

Lakshmi

Sep 27

to me

Thank you Ilona,

The journey has been beautiful....

You could do whatever you feel like with the conversations and my name....

Much Love,

Ilona

Sep 28

Hi Lakshmi,

Thank you so much. It will take me a few days to publish this. Will let you know when I do that.

Have a wonderful day!

Much love.