Some Thoughts After Liberation Unleashed Meeting

It was another rainy Saturday in Worthing...

The meeting was great, there were 17 of us, sharing space, thoughts, questions.. There was some serious looking, meeting fear, relaxation, laughter, silence. There was "I get it" and "I don't get it" and all was being welcomed.

This was the third LU gathering in Worthing. We have a nice warm room upstairs with soft chairs and table in the middle. (Sorry forgot to take pictures, again). Meetings are 4 hours long including an hour break for tea and conversations in the kitchen. Few people new, few been here before, a lovely mix of curious minds. It's great to connect and make new friends. And thanks, Nina, for the cake!

One thing that stood out for me after the meeting that I want to share is how important is to answer your own questions. There are right questions and this is all I can ever do in helping someone along the way- direct and hold focus, so the seeker would answer those questions by himself.

There are millions answers to millions of questions, but the only way to get it, is by honest investigation into your own questions. It does not happen by adapting someone else's view, by saying that I understand and agree, in theory. Seeing happens when intention is right, readiness is ripe and fear is no longer an option. Yes, it's really simple, it's so simple that mind says- oh no, it can't be that simple and may refuse to take the pure simplicity for the answer.

There are many paths, some are straight forward, some twisted, and some paths are leading away from the gate. But once one arrives at the gate, once one is ready to look, the story about the path is no longer important. All knowing of how it should be and all expectations how it will happen got to be put on hold. Focusing mind on one question alone - is there a separate self, I, me? Yes or no?....

The answer to this question is the crossing of "gateless gate".

And even if you know the answer from books, discussions and other people's descriptions, unless you look for yourself, with full focused attention, it's not going to crash that gate.

Yes, it's all about right questions. But they are useless if you don't answer them for yourself, by yourself, just so that you know... Doing your own looking and thinking is something that no teacher can replace. And if someone has answers to your questions, it does not mean that you better believe them or that someone else's description is what you want. It's not worth anything if you didn't do your own maths. So if there is a question that demands an answer, don't go googling it, instead see what honest answer you can give it. And be completely honest about it.

There is a difference between theory and experience. When we stop seeking for theory and just look, that which is not even hidden becomes obvious.

The seeking is just a endless grasping for next best thing that will help to reach the goal of freedom. It's a ride where one is chasing a golden carrot of happy ever after. It does not need to carry on. Seeking ends when it becomes clear that there is no one doing this seeking, it's choiceless and it drives itself. It's not that you can say, enough, I'm done with seeking and never buy another book that would give you more theory on how to do it, or more sweet answers to question of who you are.

Mind is looking for solution to self created problem, looking for home while being always at home. It's a game of hide and seek and when the hidden is revealed it's got to recognise it, it's got to stop pretending that it does not recognise it and then it can start relaxing.

Relaxed mind is no longer looking into the past in order to create a different images of future with less suffering. Relaxed mind is open to accept what comes up and welcome it. There is freedom from stories as stories are no longer believed to be how it is. Relaxed mind is receptive and clear, it notices what is, rather then getting lost in thinking about what was or will be if this or that happens. But in order for the mind to relax, some core questions got to be answered. And no one else can do that for you. You are on your own.

Figure it out, it's not complicated, if it looks complicated, it's not it. 

......................................
Here are the links to recordings.

LU_meeting_13th_april_part_1

LU_meeting_13th_april_part_2

The next meeting will be held at the same place on 18th of May, 1:30-5:30, the details will be on events page.

Thank you all for coming and sharing and for your kind contributions... 

No Strings Attached

Tseng Tsang 

Hi Ilona,
I imagine this email will be in amongst hundreds of other requests for communication, however, if you are reading it, I guess I've reached the top. Hooray!

I would like to have a dialogue with you if possible. Not to get help to pass through, because the self-view that was, has recently been seen as illusory and the gradual collapse of patterning around that dream has begun. Do I want confirmation? Perhaps I'm curious; there are still waves of doubt that flush through but these periods are characterized by strange fears that I haven't seen what can't be seen! How could I?

I have a couple of friends who likewise have passed through the gate, entered the stream and so just before Christmas with them, coupled with reading your gateless gate conversations, I was born into the only reality that there is, or has ever been. So tremendous gratitude to you, for being part of that mysterious process.

Like many of your guests, I have practised mediation for many years. I was ordained a Buddhist in the Triratna western Buddhist order some years ago, after some 15 years of striving and intense passionate searching for truth.

Ahhh, Ahhh, so easy. So simple. Nothing else. Just a reduction to this moment, a collapsing of past and future, all the effort to shape this story of myself, to cling to the past and anticipation of the future and constant distortion of the gift which is nowness. Ahhh, Ahhh. One morning I cried at the trauma, that this world has been shaped from so many peoples sufferings, caused by attempts to make real what never will be. Will it ever all undo?

Over xmas, I just relaxed; the engine went out of it all, I sat about with my children and just drank them up, like a newborn myself, just lying about, loving the abundance of it all. I met my friend who also 'knows' and it was wonderful - I have seen, I said, I am here, at long last I can help, it was wonderful, for years he has been trying to get me to see and the veil must have been getting thin. We sat in a pub and nothing was different, only there was attention, and thought, and ideas, and sharing, and love and doubt and fear but all just rolling through this incredible moment of arising that could not be held or contained or described or understood.  Ahh, it is good to remember and to share. But the truth of it lies in it being present even as I type, a month later.

Not sure if you even need to reply. The expression is enough. Well done for creating your amazing portal to reality.

With love and appreciation

Ilona 
Hi Tseng Tsang

thank you very much for email. yes, i get a lot of requests for communication, but nothing that i can not handle, haha.
i'm so delighted to hear that gateless gate was crashed!
if you like to talk about anything, feel free to send ma message, i will reply.

there is a whole LU community on facebook, if you are on there already, please friend me. we have several groups where you can meet others that went through the same and it is great place to share and grow together. if you are interested to join, we ask some questions, that lets us make sure that yes, the gate was crossed. would you be interested in answering them?

lots of love.

Tseng Tsang 
Jan 19

Hi Ilona,
Thank you for responding so quickly.

There is a pause before writing because I'm pondering motivations here.
I have a wonderful spiritual community to play with up here, and some close friends with whom I can communicate deeply and truthfully about practice beyond the realization. However, what you guys are doing and the magic that some of your youtube and gateless gatecrasher dialogues worked on me, draws me to your community and the language you use. Especially the revelations about lack of control - "no doer of the deed is found" etc.

I would like to answer some questions but not sure what forum to enter. I'm a bit shy you see! Not really. And our tradition is cautious around claims of attainment etc so keeping a low profile at mo- however, is there a little quiet room where a dialogue could take place, where I could be thoroughly MOT'd by someone who is skilled at recognizing how clever and subtle the language of ego can get. Perhaps someone who could spread a net so fine that no words of self could slip through? Do you know what I mean Ilona -

Why am I asking? Why is the snow settling in the garden?
Cheers

Ilona 
It's very nice to hear that you have a spiritual community. I'm alone here, hope in time I find one too or maybe start one. The LU community is on Facebook, people are joining from all over the world, I have met few in person. It's wonderful to be able to talk to "awake" and just be in their company.

Here are the questions for you :

1) Is there a 'me', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) in the experience, is there an experiencer? Is it body that experiences or is the body the experienced?

3) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works.

4) How does it feel to see this?

5)How would you describe it to somebody who has never heard about this illusion but is curious about it.

6) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look? Can you describe the moment when seeing happened?

7) Anything to add?

Please answer in full. Once you do, I can see if there are any areas that can be looked at and if not, you will be invited to join fb community. There are many beautiful characters there :)

Much love.
Ps. Yeah, there is some snow in the garden. :)

Tseng Tsang
Jan 22

Hi Ilona,
A bunch of words attached - some fossilized moments.
Thank you for looking.
love

Is there a 'me', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?
No, yes, words arising – the me that was constructed out of countless thoughts re-running experiences and labelling them as ‘past’, the me that emerged out of myriad imaginings of a fixed entity that would arrive in the ‘future’ and experience itself – that ‘me’ is kaboom! It was only ever a story, a narrative, only ever a dramatization constructed out of empty space. And in the present moment everything lives and dies, arises and passes away every moment and so is deserving of the ultimate praise. Why was the illusion of self, constructed, moulded? Perhaps because the alternative is to die in every moment and I guess that was too scary for the generations who went before and who were also victims of this conditioning and who were unable to just leave this child alone. See, it’s dangerous stuff this. Cause ‘I’m’ out-a here! So who the fuck is going to run the show? It’s completely unpredictable, no one is taking responsibility.

In the experience, is there an experiencer? Is it body that experiences or is the body the experienced?
Experience just emerges. Intentions arise but no one intends to intend. The question is asked and the conditions come together; your question, this body, odd bits of the Tseng Tsang story that want to be acknowledged such as “ I'm expressing this”, and low, words are typed  - and there’s an answer. I love your next bit – does the body experience? I've seen you write and heard you say that the self is unreal but the body is real Ilona. Is the body real? Is the body any more real as an entity than Santa or the self? There is, right now, the warmth of the radiator on my back. But ‘radiator’ and ‘warmth’ and ‘back’ are all little Santa’s jumping down the chimney! The present moment is so mysterious and unlabellable. But now the biggest label of all ‘self’ has been seen, there is now more presence and so what is really happening is slowly becoming known.

Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works.
Words Ilona. How can they convey experience? There can be descriptions of what arises but is there a me experiencing these feelings, these thoughts, this breath? Is there a me in control of these fingers? My god, any sense of someone making this happen is illusory, I am happened to. The past and the future are just a dream and by clinging to thoughts and concepts associated with anything other than this exploding present moment – ‘I’ feed and nurture a distortion of what is. Of course the mind has dug grooves and so although the illusion is seen, the story blown open, there seems to be behavioral stuff emerging/shedding. Like a Pavlovian dog, it sometimes feels like I’m wearing heavy suites of doubt, or dullness, there are waves of fear and hours of irritation but they shed and don’t stick because the story that they belonged to, the narrative they relate to has ended and the lights have come on in the theatre hall. The show is over and the majority of the audience have gone home…..there are just a few grumpy, smelly old tramps on the back row and a stubborn actor who hasn’t quite left the stage.

How does it feel to see this?
This is now a collapse into controllessness. It’s like a building slowly coming down.  Many behaviours have changed for the better. Patience has arisen where before there was little. Why? Not because I’m now patient but because there is nowhere to go anymore. There is no rush, and because the present moment is set free of much of the fog of past and future, it is so much more welcome. My children, previously such a drain, are now tumbling me into wonderful forgetfullnesses of playing and laughter. Whereas before my anxiety was a constant worry for my wife, now I am strong, I am present, I am at last some bloody use! And there is just action, there is just spontaneity, and a consistent need to keep looking at what this is; yes, some theorizing (I love thinking and ideas too) but more just looking, deeply seeing, aahhh this is fear, aaahh this is doubt, aaahh this is tiredness, aaahhh this is inspiration, aaah this is brown wet sludge.

5)How would you describe it to somebody who has never heard about this illusion but is curious about it. 
I would say – how curious are you? What are you curious about? What do you want? Do you suffer – because some people’s illusory self seems to function pretty well and does not give rise to any questions about its reliability? But if you are serious about seeing this, then look at your experience and don’t stop until you see that you do not exist – literally, absolutely not there. If you feel a ‘but’ coming, look at that but, that but is doubt and doubt is a gift, doubt is the first sign that you see. Who is doubting? There is fear. Fear is a gift. Welcome that fear, don’t just note it – get into bed with it and ask, who is afraid, where is the self that is afraid? Be ruthless, waste no more time searching for states and trying to behave well – you will be doing that for ever – look now, who is controlling this?

6) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look? Can you describe the moment when seeing happened?
Where did the 20 years of searching and struggling go, where the countless meditation retreats? Where is the committed Buddhist who studied and was determined to find the answer to it all? Where are the humble disciple and the loyal ordained Tseng Tsang Where is the one who was pushing from behind? Are all those conditions in this present moment? Did all that happen to me? Did the cloud happen to the rain? Did the river happen to the sea? Did the seed happen to the tree? Are all those conditions supporting this truth, giving rise to this moment? ‘Time’ is an illusion that still holds sway.  I see a tree in the garden heavy with snow; when the snow gets too much it will fall. But looking back, it looks like I was also shaken – by close friends and their deep relentless questioning, by you and Elena on Youtube and liberation unleashed and gateless gatecrasher.  I relaxed just before Christmas (reminds me of you on a spa and Elena saying she was with Adyashanti), there was time to sit and look. There were several moments in which doubt came up and we held hands – ‘I’ and ‘doubt’ traveled down – ‘I’ and ‘fear’ dived down – and ‘I’ failed to come back up – there was just doubt aware of doubt and fear aware of fear.

Anything to add?
I see this leading to storyless responding; to spontaneous action informed less and less by illusion and more and more by reality. And what strange creatures we are. Pure human expression is something unfettered and arising from inside itself. Let us all melt away. Let us trust this river and watch and marvel at the gross and subtle attempts of the mind to pilot the raft, until raft and river and destination are one.
Thank you so much for reading. See you at the source.

Ilona 
Thank you for fossilised moments, it was a pleasure to read this. Sorry it took a while to reply..

Haha, yes I say that body is real, but by real don't mean material objective, I mean that it is not imagined as Santa or unicorn. Out of context it sounds different, I agree. Language creates all kinds of distortions. How can we even communicate effectively with this limited tool.. And yet it's the only one we have..

Would it be OK to put our short conversation on my blog with your name or whatever name you choose? If you like to join the community, of course.

Sending love.

Tseng Tsang 
Feb 2

Hi Ilona,

Thank you for your reply.
A pause before replying. Mistrust of something over here.

There is still so much patterning manifesting. It's like there are traces everywhere of relationships to 'my' life based on the old story of self. Wherever I look there are shades of likes and dislikes; even hints of the old depressive, grumpy temperament. And yet storylines collapse in on themselves much earlier and now the struggle and searching is over I've not got anything to impose on situations. Who's guiding things now?

From what you've read from me, would you agree that the gate is crashed?
Yes, you may put our conversation on your blog, with pleasure. Is there a secret passage to a secret community of secret nobodies somewhere who are sharing secret nothings?

Off to watch Looper.
Take care and keep up the cracking liberation work.
Love Tseng Tsang

Ilona
Feb 4
Hi again.

Hmm, are you having doubts? If so examine them, what is behind them? Is anything not the way it should be?

Yes, this is only a beginning of collapse of structures built on belief in separate I, it takes time to deconstruct and settle in. Patterns will come up, will continue to be seen and released. Key is to welcome everything.

Who is guiding things now? How would you answer that?
Sending love.

Tseng Tsang 
Feb 4

Hi Ilona,
My god, yes, I'm having doubts.  But the perspective remains – there is nothing behind the doubts; they are just thoughts that say “I have not seen, I am not free, I am myself, I do exist, things do endure, there is a continuity to reality, I can control and organize and make meaningful shapes out of experiences through time” and each of these thoughts drenches the body in subtly different feelings and emotions.  And despite this, despite the truth that earlier this evening I felt rejected and disapproved of and threatened by your question, Ilona, ‘are you having doubts?’; despite this, there is a recognition that none of it is of my doing.  I still fall into wanting what arises to permanently have the qualities of clarity and openness and inspiration, which at times they do and then it’s all too easy to think you've got it! But then when shapes emerge that seem not to be expressions of the oneness of things but which resemble shadows of the former self, it’s all too easy to think you've lost it. ‘Getting it’ and ‘Losing it’ are just the playing out of the controller, the games of ‘like and dislike’ that are still going on. And even here there is a subtle judgement that somehow I need to drop all grasping and rejecting - “This is the minds disease” so the ancient texts say. Is everything just the way it should be, you ask? It’s better to just give up and let the magic take over.  

Who is guiding things now? Who? Who? Who? Who? Who is asking the question? Who? Who? Who is typing these words? Who is thinking these thoughts? Me? What does that ME even mean? Where is it? I bore down, searching intensely, and then realize that all that is found is ‘boring down’ and ‘searching’ and ‘intensity’ – and in looking for the guide, all that arises is the looking, and this will always be the case, the seeker will never be found. So, who is guiding things now? Christ knows Ilona but it’s bloody great to know it ain’t me! Perhaps it’s you chuck. What do you reckon? Really?

Love this dancing dialoguing. Thanks for playing along.
Tseng Tsang

Ilona 
Feb 6

Oh, I love playing.

Cool, so the question is who?

But is it not a right question, there is no who, other then in language. Language is a tool for communication and words are sounds with assigned meaning, some words are symbols, others just pure grammar constructs. Word 'and' points to sum, word who points to subject that does action. But is that how things are? When we say grass is growing, is it grass doing the growing by managing what happens in growth department?.

The language is not only a tool of communication, but a building block of illusion of separation.

There is no who, there is only asking question. It's no one behind the asking or typing. Check now, is reading happening to someone? By someone? How do you do that? How do you read these words?

The seeker will never be found :) one day the search for seeker will vanish.
I reckon..

Tseng Tsang 
Feb 7

Yes, wonderful, 'When we say grass is growing, is it grass doing the growing by managing what happens in growth department?'

When a dried leaf is blown along the pavement, is the leaf generating movement by itself? Is it the wind that causes the movement? What causes the wind? And what causes that, and that and that? There is no primal mover! There are no causes. When a thought blows through the mind, it does not generate itself, there is no initial place from which the thought is generated.

You are right, the question Who, is just searching for a place from which everything is generated. You could just as well say the blown leaf along the pavement causes the thought in the mind.
The present moment seems to be, somehow, just an explosion of effect without cause - cause is created from the illusion of time.

What I'm noticing, Ilona, is that as things move on, awareness is losing its interest in past and future, which is natural, because past and future are shadowy graveyards in comparison to the abundance of the present moment.

I have a question for you. You have probably heard of the Buddhist concept of Stream Entry which involves breaking the first three fetters - doubt, rights and rituals and fixed self-view. Beyond this the next fetters to go are hatred and sense desire (grasping and rejecting). What I see happening is that with the self-view breaking, the other two of the first three fetters follow, and now is a gradual withering of the patterns of control that were generated through the self-view years, and so grasping and rejecting are naturally winding down. However, do you think there is another Santa out there for the next fetters? I don't see that there could be, because things emerge as they do, there is no seeker to find a Santa, the next two fetters, to use that model, will just wither, not break, and that may take years.

What do you think? I'm bunged up with cold and off work today. Hope you well.
Tseng Tsang

Ilona
Feb 7

Hi Tseng Tsang

Yes, wonderful, 'When we say grass is growing, is it grass doing the growing by managing what happens in growth department?' 
When a dried leaf is blown along the pavement, is the leaf generating movement by itself? Is it the wind that causes the movement? What causes the wind? And what causes that, and that and that? There is no primal mover! There are no causes. When a thought blows through the mind, it does not generate itself, there is no initial place from which the thought is generated.
You are right, the question Who, is just searching for a place from which everything is generated. You could just as well say the blown leaf along the pavement causes the thought in the mind.

It's the most haunting question "who am I?". There is no who and no I, just am :) seeing that is the end of looking for the who.

The present moment seems to be, somehow, just an explosion of effect without cause - cause is created from the illusion of time. 

Cause is an idea, effect too.

There is this expression 'co-dependent origination', all that is arising is arising now interdependently of everything else, cause effect is the same thing. All is one no-thing. Arising in the present moment.


What I'm noticing, Ilona, is that as things move on, awareness is losing its interest in past and future, which is natural, because past and future are shadowy graveyards in comparison to the abundance of the present moment. 

Yes, that is very visible after a while, mind no longer needs to refer to the past or project possible futures and look for solutions to non existent problems.

I have a question for you. You have probably heard of the Buddhist concept of Stream Entry which involves breaking the first three fetters - doubt, rights and rituals and fixed self-view. Beyond this the next fetters to go are hatred and sense desire (grasping and rejecting). What I see happening is that with the self-view breaking, the other two of the first three fetters follow, and now is a gradual withering of the patterns of control that were generated through the self-view years, and so grasping and rejecting are naturally winding down. However, do you think there is another Santa out there for the next fetters?

I am familiar with term of stream entry. I can say that yes, this is it, the rest unfolds naturally, there is no other Santa, but continuing settling in seeing that Santa is a fantasy story. Seeing that from all different angles in all possible situations. It is only a beginning and there are so many different doors to explore, this is significant and also not so huge as it may seem from the first look.
Basically, it's like a first glimpse, an opening to further opening. :)

The start of seeing emptiness of self in anyone or anything.

I don't see that there could be, because things emerge as they do, there is no seeker to find a Santa, the next two fetters, to use that model, will just wither, not break, and that may take years.

There is freedom from using models and purely finding what works for you.

What do you think? I'm bunged up with cold and off work today. Hope you well.

I hope you are feeling better. Sending a hug.

Tseng Tsang 
Feb 8

Hi Ilona,
Much appreciation for the time you have spent following a few of these threads.
Yes - freedom from models, freedom from searching, freedom from asking who? freedom from needing to understand, freedom from any notion.

Just to finish, I approached you, after the event so to speak, and so, there is a kind of paradox or koan for me in our communication. I think my motives were mixed; part curiosity, part wanting a stamp of approval or a badge of recognition. People close to me up here can sense the impact this insight has had. I don't need their confirmation or approval, (not that much anyway); I witness it day to day in myself, in the way responses erupt and are gone, story-lines wither up and I seem to be being swallowed up in the present moment. But this approval seeking is a strong habit of mine and it was a dynamic that caused my Buddhist preceptors to pause before ordaining me. They paused for 11 years before they could see that I had enough individuality to practice more authentically.

And so, I must apologize for drawing you into this little back-water eddy. I think I've been trying to convince you of something, Ilona, so that you would give me a big thumbs up, an emphatic, literal YOU HAVE SEEN!

I have just re-read the first email i sent and will leave it with that as the rest is.... - a little sadness arises - a little humiliation -

"Over xmas, I just relaxed; the engine went out of it all, I sat about with my children and just drank them up, like a newborn myself, just lying about, loving the abundance of it all. I met my friend who also 'knows' and it was wonderful - I have seen, I said, I am here, at long last I can help, it was wonderful, for years he has been trying to get me to see and the veil must have been getting thin. We sat in a pub and nothing was different, only there was attention, and thought, and ideas, and sharing, and love and doubt and fear but all just rolling through this incredible moment of arising that could not be held or contained or described or understood.  Ahh, it is good to remember and to share. But the truth of it lies in it being present even as I type, a month later.

Not sure if you even need to reply. The expression is enough. Well done for creating your amazing portal to reality."

With love and appreciation
Tseng Tsang

ps - thank you for this dance.

Ilona
Feb 8

Oh, don't worry about apologizing, I'm here for you so you can see what comes up and notice patterns :)

Wanting approval is one of 3 main wants. The other 2 are wanting control and wanting security. Releasing those wants is a big step to freedom.

One other little subtle thing- there is freedom from and as well freedom to.
Like freedom to experience whatever shows up without judgement. Freedom to feel intense emotions without resistance. Freedom to express whatever wants to be expressed without feeling of guilt and need for apologizing.

So if you notice the want for approval, it starts loosening it's grip. You may spend a day, a week or whatever long focusing just on this one want. Noticing when it pops up, how does it feel, where is sensation located and looking behind them sensations. What is there that wants approval?

And if it makes you feel better- here you go- yes, you have seen through illusion and what is happening now is beginning of integration. It's clean up time- all old patterns are coming up to be looked at, and if no longer working- released.

Sending love.

.....................................................................
Tseng Tsang 
Mar 21

Hi again Ilona,
Hope all is well with you. You may remember our little chat just after Christmas. Thanks so much again for your time and attention.
Things continue to flow and emerge. I've been looking around LU website. Do you think I could copy our dialogue onto a new topic thread and see if others would like to respond.
love

Ilona 
Mar 22

Hi Tseng Tsang , sure, feel free. Or if you prefer, we can talk a bit more.  Last answer of yours was about mistrust, so I did not put the conversation on the blog as it felt unfinished.

Sending love.

Tseng Tsang 
Mar 22

Hi there again,

I'm excited to get your response.

You are so right to say shall we talk some more. There is a loose end here for me that was left hanging, as you say Ilona, around mistrust. Something felt a little unclean at the end - like I became aware that I had partly used you and the LU stuff to get a pat on the back. And you very kindly gave me that pat but, as is often the case, what is grasped does not give the ultimate satisfaction you perhaps think it will.
Some months have passed now and there has been a settling into the way stuff is which has reduced the doubting waves and made them more familiar; thoughts bubble up as ever from the contact of mind with world, actions and intentions emerge out of the unfathomable void, and the mental gymnastics that used to take hold of experience and twist it up and stuff it into tight little boxes called past and present and me and mine, well that has dropped away - there isn't room for that shit any more - experience is abundant and sometimes it feels like they say the bodhisattva does - like an elephant plunging from one muddy pool to the next, fully immersed, at home, at work, in the bath, on this laptop.

So, Ilona, sincere apology for the messy stuff at the beginning, I guess it's inevitable when freshly hatched. Thanks for your attention and insight.

By the way, it may interest you to  know that I am close friends with Samanatha and have connections with Tejananda and the other Triratna bunch who are appearing on LU.

Love this crazy game.

Would be nice to hear from you and please feel free to point me towards the right place on LU - or even tell me to keep clear of it -
thanks

Ilona 
Mar 23

Thanks for message.
Yes, it would be good to finish and invite you to FB groups where you can connect with other LU-ers.

Can you say with unambiguous YES, that it is clear, that separate self is illusion? Can you confirm that seeing that there is no I at all happened?

Of there is anything at all that you want to address, bring it up here.
Lets see where you are and roll from there.

Sending love.

Ps, don't worry about past, what happened happened, no need to be sorry about it. I have no bad feelings...

Tseng Tsang 
Mar 23

Morning Ilona,

I know you only have these words on a screen but is it still ambiguous after all?
I have nothing more to address Ilona, just to share and share and learn and deepen. The agenda's and strategies and searching and hoping and dissatisfaction and controlling that were aspects of self - they have vanished. There are still echoes and they can at times be deafening, there are still shadows and they can be dark and ominous, but YES the self that gave birth to all that stuff has gone. Just before Christmas.....Santa came for the last time, ha ha ha.

My life unfolds wonderfully. You should ask my wife. She knows, she could give you an unambiguous YES. See me with my kids, see how anxiety has reduced, how patience has arisen. I live a busy life. I work in a prison. I generally find myself absorbed in life. I kind of don't care anymore.......life is all around, I am absorbed in life, I am just response to what is here, I am a puppet with a million strings attached to everything, the wardrobe in this room is pulling strings right now which moves these fingers across the keyboard, and the wardrobe is having its strings pulled by the mirror on the wall which is pulled by the light that reflects from the snow outside........I am no more separate than each of these things to the other, no more separate than the light in the mirror is separate from the mirror.
Love Tseng Tsang

Ilona 
Mar 23

Wonderful!
You work in prison? How interesting. That's sounds like hardcore environment. And so symbolic too.

You have nice poetic way to express in words, the puppet with million strings, hehe. I say there is no puppet, really, just play that plays itself. All arise simultaneously. No strings attached.

I'm so happy to hear that lots of unnecessary struggle vanished. I can feel that relaxation in you.
Maybe now it's the right time to put this on the blog and invite you to FB groups.  What do you say?

Sending love.

Tseng Tsang 
Mar 24

Dear Ilona,
'No strings attached'

Perhaps a good title for our conversations. And once more, thank you for your time and interest. You say everything arises simultaneously, hmmmm, I'll take that one away as a gift.........  

I've looked at LU website but not sure how or if our conversations would fit in there.
Love

Ilona 

Hi dear.
I will put this on my blog, then ask other guides to read and see if they have any questions.
If yes, I will pass them on to you, if no, I will invite you to LU Facebook groups. The community is there.

Give me a day or two.
Sending love.


(image from http://poisonvectors.deviantart.com/gallery/ , lots of great artwork there.)

Mike: Experience is Amazingly Simple

Mike
Dear Ilona,

This feels somewhat strange writing to you, but I would like to ask you for some help or advice. I have been reading 'Gateless gatecrashers', looking at stuff on Liberation Unleashed and reading your and Elena's blogs. I have found it fascinating!

I have been practising Buddhism for some 30 years and feel that I have had some direct glimpses into the truth of no-self.  However, though I can fairly easily come back to those glimpses, I do not seem to have found how to sustain them. My experience is one of perhaps having seen something, but not having really passed through that seeing into another way of being. Or something like that.

I read through the section of your blog 'Start here' and found myself doing some of the steps you describe there. It has been useful, and quite quickly brought me back into seeing something, but also into a feeling of pushing against something that I cannot yet move beyond.

Having started, I'm wondering now whether in fact you might be able to help me in some way. I don't expect you to do it for me, and it maybe that in the end you can't. I don't know.

As I say, it feels odd to be writing to you in this way. All I have to go on is your offer of help on your blog, and a sense that well maybe something fresh like this could help me see more fully.

I'll share with you what I wrote while exploring the first 3 steps you describe on your blog. I hope that is OK.

Step 1.- Clearing the path.

"There is no self at all in reality. No me that lives my life". I wrote this down as you suggested. What came up? Excitement. Doubt. Something just our of reach. Hoping. Heard it all before. Understand it, but can't 'realise' it. There is always the sense of 'me'.

There doesn't seem to be fear. More a sense of tiredness, of 'No, not again!'. Not wanting to push again into an understanding, a glimpse of 'no-self', and then for it just to fall away again and to be lost/caught up again in the endlessness of self. There is a sense of yes, I've seen it, but I just don't know how to pass through it and into a new way of being.

Step 2. - Strip away all expectations.

"What do you expect that liberation is going to be like?" A freer way of being, a lighter, more joyous way of being, not being caught in an endless loop.
"How do you imagine that a liberated human behaves'" Spontaneously.
"What do you not want it to be like?" There is some fear actually, fear that this 'no-self' stuff is just another mind-trip, a story, another way of fooling myself - perhaps the ultimate way. I hadn't seen that fear so clearly before.

Step 3. - Get in touch with real.

I imagined the spoon. Then opened my eyes. My eyes could not see a spoon. But I could still feel the spoon in my hand. There was still some experience of a spoon. In that sense it still existed. But I can see that it is just an experience - no different from the experience of holding a 'real' spoon.

I look around the room, as you ask, and notice what is real. It's all real, in the sense that it is experienced.

"Look - can you see the self?" Well, I do have an experience of self too. Just as I have an experience of the plant in front of me, there is an experience of self. And then there is an experience of 'me' experiencing this self. Even of me experiencing the me that experiences self.

And then it is lost and it is just ideas.

Ilona, If you can help that would be great. If not, then thanks anyway for your sites and for having written up these steps. I feel more engaged again with this work. Maybe I just have to stay with looking and hope that something will give?

Many thanks.

Ilona
Feb 6

Hi Mike,

Thank you for writing to me. I'm glad that the steps are helpful. One thing that stood out from your email:

"Look - can you see the self?" Well, I do have an experience of self too. Just as I have an experience of the plant in front of me, there is an experience of self. And then there is an experience of 'me' experiencing this self. Even of me experiencing the me that experiences self."

Is it true that you experience self just like the plant in front of you? Can you touch the self, smell it, see it with eyes?

Did you experience a spoon in the spoon experiment or an image of spoon felt vividly imagined by the mind? Is self like the real spoon or like imagined spoon? Do you see a difference? By real I mean that which does not disappear when you stop imagining it.

Write with whole honesty what comes up.


"What do you expect that liberation is going to be like?" A freer way of being, a lighter, more joyous way of being, not being caught in an endless loop.

Nice

"How do you imagine that a liberated human behaves'" Spontaneously.

Just like before, patterns, habits, character, preferences all stay, spontaneousness is not part of the package. See, there is no bondage already, so nothing happens.


"What do you not want it to be like?" There is some fear actually, fear that this 'no-self' stuff is just another mind-trip, a story, another way of fooling myself - perhaps the ultimate way. I hadn't seen that fear so clearly before.

Good stuff, this is great place to be as you are crossing boundaries, fear comes up to protect them, now look, what is it protecting? What is behind the fear?

And sure, there is a story about the journey to see no self, stories are part of package..

Kind regards

Mike
Feb 7

Dear Ilona,

Thanks so much for responding. I really do appreciate it very much. I got your email last night and your comments and questions seemed to stay with me till this morning.


No, I cannot touch the self, smell it nor see it with my eyes. But I do have a sense of self, somewhere. And yes it is very much like the spoon, which though not there I could still "feel vividly imagined by the mind". That describes very well my sense of self. I do feel it vividly, though I cannot get hold of it and it has the quality of something imagined by the mind.

I can see that Ilona, but then some vague fear or resistance comes up to actually fully accepting that or buying into that. I'm afraid to let go of this sense of 'me', that 'I' am.

Just like before, patterns, habits, character, preferences all stay, spontaneousness is not part of the package. See, there is no bondage already, so nothing happens.

This has shaken me quite a bit, you saying this. I don't know if I understand you right, but if what you're saying is true, then maybe I'm looking all wrong. What comes to mind is that I'm actually looking to free the self and you're saying that no, it's just freedom from self and nothing more. That feels like letting go of a whole lot of stuff, a whole attitude. I really can't say how radical this feels. Yet it's so obvious in some way. I'm hovering between feeling a fool, doubting and a kind of OMG feeling!

 Good stuff, this is great place to be as you are crossing boundaries, fear comes up to protect them, now look, what is it protecting? What is behind the fear?

I'm afraid to let go. I'm afraid I may be trying to obliterate something essential to who I am. Maybe I'm afraid to really trust you, or at least what you are saying?

I can see that the sense of self, though there, is just an experience, just an 'idea' within consciousness. But I'm afraid to really take that on. It can feel like annihilation or something! And anyway, I'm not sure about how to really take it on. That seeing hasn't yet entered deep into me.

And sure, there is a story about the journey to see no self, stories are part of package.. 

So the stories continue. But we know they are only stories? In fact, we know that there are only ever stories?

Thanks for your time Ilona. I'm trying to be as honest as I can here. I'm trying to make this real. I sort of know what you are getting at, but I can't fully move into it yet. I don't know why. Is it just fear? I will continue to reflect and feel my way into this today. If you can stick in here with me I'd really appreciate it. I feel very open to what you have to say. And I feel moved by you being willing to give your time in this way.

Best wishes,

Mike

Ilona
Feb 7

Hi mike,
Thanks for answer.

Self of self, where is it? Can you pin point it? When is it felt the most and the least? Is that the same sense that could be labelled 'aliveness'? Is aliveness personal, is this sense of presence in control of what is being perceived? Can you see that sense + label creates an illusion of some entity?

The language and the way it works creates an illusion of subject and object, the doer of action. Is there anyone doing being? Is there anyone doing anything?

There is a exercise in this post, take your time with it, write to me what you notice.

Labels

Much love.

Mike
Feb 8

What I have been calling the sense of self seems to be everywhere and at all times, but I can't pin point it more than saying it's 'here'. It is what experiences. No, it is experience itself. As I hold the hot mug of tea in my hand there is an experiencing going on, of heat and weight and the solidness of the mug. I believe there is a 'me' experiencing that. But then I see that that 'me' is 'just' a part of the experience, it's not separate from the experience. There's not actually something, someone outside of the experience somehow 'having' it. It's just part of experience. What happens though is that I put the mug down and I write to you and there is more experiencing but of different 'things' and I presume that the same 'me' that experienced the mug is now experiencing the keyboard as I write.

You call it a sense of presence. Yes. Aliveness. That's what I am labelling 'self' and that then becomes a sense of 'self'. The sense of presence is there, it is a geunine part of experience. It is experience. Yes. But then something gets added. I make it into 'self'. Why? I don't know, I don't understand. 'I' don't make this sense of presence, I don't 'own' it. It just is there and I identify it as 'me'. Why? 'I' identify it as 'me'. Who? This sense of presence, this being is 'just' experience but there is no-thing, no-one outside of experience experiencing! There is no-one 'being'.

There is aliveness, presence, being, experience. But there's no me outside of that, separate from it, no me that is alive, present, being, experiencing.

OK, I'm just going to stay with this for a while Ilona. This seeing, feeling that there is no-one outside of experience experiencing. There is 'aliveness', a sense of presence, but no-one that somehow exists beyond that, that owns it, that has it.

I'll do the exercise about labelling, then I'll write about what I notice.

Not sure why but there's suddenly some strong emotion coming up with this. Not really sure what it is! Tears.

Thanks again,

Mike
Feb 8

I did the exercise. I don't now if I can exactly say what I noticed. Things seem to flow when I stopped using 'I' and 'me'.

There is no 'self'. There is a sense of self, but it is an illusion. It is just the way that experience presents itself. But really there is no-one that experience is happening to, no-one that makes experience happen. It all goes on just as always, but the sense of self is not literal. Nor the sense of other.

There is nothing to be done, no 'I' that needs to be liberated. Ha! It's all a big mistake. A kind of trick. There's still experience, still living, still presence, but the 'I' behind it all, read into it, that it supposedly happens to, is not real. Even though 'I' think it is. But it's just a thought, or more than that - an interpretation. It doesn't exactly go away, but it's not real. It doesn't point to anything actually existing, does it?

Experience doesn't change. The story is still around, but it's just a story. Just a belief that got a hold of things but doesn't actually correspond to anything real.

A while ago I had a strong feeling come up of 'I can't do this' and then immediately the realisation there's no 'I' to do it or not do it. There's no 'I' to do, or to be done to. No 'I' that things happen to. There's just seeing through 'I' as an illusion. Even if it doesn't exactly go away.

I read what I write and I don't know if it says what I mean. I don't know if words help or hinder. Clarity comes and goes.

Is it really this simple? I still struggle to really see what I seem to be seeing. Is it possible to see that 'I' is an illusion but there still to be a 'sense of self', a story that goes on, even though it's known to be just a story and not a real 'thing' ?

Thanks for being there to write to. It's good to be able to do this Ilona. Whoever you are. I hope writing like this is OK for you. I imagine it's all very simple for you and yet you put up with the likes of me doing a lot of waffling! I would like to arrive at that place of simplicity - but maybe the idea that I will arrive anywhere is in fact the problem.

Love, Mike

Mike
Feb 9

Hi Ilona,

I've realised that I am trying to convince myself there is no self. But actually I obviously believe there is a self.

I believe self to be real Ilona. I now want to know whether that belief is true or not. I can intellectually convince myself that it is not, I think. But that is not the same as knowing. I want to really know, not just convince myself (because it is what my teacher - the Buddha - and others say, including you).

Some say it is not real. Men and women I really respect. I am really interested in the possibility that self does not exist. I'm willing to really look at my belief and I want to have real communication with someone who says they really see that there is no-self. I'd like that to be you because just being in touch with you is helping. I have literally hundreds of Buddhist friends I could talk to, but there is something good about your direct approach. From what I've read on your blog, from what I've seen on you videos, you strike me as honest and authentic in your communication and being. But... I'm no longer going to do so with the idea of trying to convince myself that self is an illusion. If it is, I want to see for myself. And if it is real, I want to see for myself.

I believe 'I' am, self is. It's a lie to say otherwise Ilona. Now I want to know if that belief is true. I want to really look at it. Really recognise and look at this central belief. But not with the attitude of trying to make it go away, that it shouldn't be there. Maybe self is real, maybe it is not.

I think I'm ready to really look at this now for the first time in my life. I don't really care what the truth is. I just want to know, for myself directly.

Ilona
Feb 10

Now you are talking!

To see it for yourself, you just need to look.
You may start from defining for yourself what word Real points to. Then see if word self points to anything real.

Good place to look is what comes up, when you consider that separate self is an illusion, there never was a self, i, that has free will and is in control of life. Is it true? Is the opposite truer?

In your experience right now, is there an I that experience is happening to?

Sending love.

Mike

I am looking.

"In your experience right now, is there an I that experience is happening to?"

I am looking at what I consider to be me, self. A collection of feelings in the body, here, that I feel to be 'I', that I identify as 'I'. And something else.

I see self, as an object. Though self is by nature subject! So I am trying to see the 'I' that is looking at self.

I can see that 'I' is itself an experience that 'I' am having. That is where things are at at the moment. My attention is fully on this experience of 'I'.

To put it another way, there is experience of an 'I' . But I don't know who is having that experience! But I presume/believe someone is. I'm just trying to see that clearly and stay with it. I am trying to look, really look, not just think.

Does this make sense?

I am travelling for the next few days but will try to continue to write. I'm loving doing this, and feel incredibly focused on it.

With heartfelt thanks.

Ilona
Feb 11

Hope your travelling is smooth and interesting :)

How do you experience this I? Where is it in the body? Or is it outside the body? Is it the body itself?

How would you describe the sensation of I? Which of the senses perceive it-
Smell, taste, hearing, seeing or touching? Maybe it is in feeling or in thinking? Can you find this I and tell me where it is. Take your finger and point to it, where does the finger point to?

What does it mean?

Is there an experiencer to which experience is happening or it's all one, with no gap. Investigate this and get back to me when ready.
Have fun :)

Sending love

Mike
Feb 13

Hi

I'll try to explain where things are at, but I don't find it easy to put into words without falsifying it.

What I think of as self is a set of associated physical sensations in the body, especially the upper chest, throat, lower/back of the head area. It is also an inner voice and an idea that somehow this all constitutes a self.

However there is a slowly growing seeing that all this is something taking place IN experience, not something outside of experience that is experiencing. It is just an idea, a voice, a set of physical sensations. There isn't something, someone experiencing the experience from outside of the experience.
I don't know what it is, what experience is, but I have at least moments of seeing - not just thinking - that there isn't necessarily an experiencer. That is wonderful, weird and I think a bit terrifying!

But there is also doubt and resistance to this seeing, an unwillingness to let go into it.

I find it difficult to write about. I need to keep looking. I see, have a growing conviction, knowing, that I is an idea, not an actually existing, separate entity, but there is still doubt, indecision and falling into an habitual way of being based on not seeing. And I think there is some fear around letting go.

But it feels like something is becoming clearer. I want to stay with this though it requires a kind of relaxed effort that is sometimes hard.

Thanks for being there :-)

Ilona
Feb 14

Hi mike

Thank you for email, I can see that now you have started to look. Keep noticing what is obvious.

You said:
What I think of as self is a set of associated physical sensations in the body, especially the upper chest, throat, lower/back of the head area. It is also an inner voice and an idea that somehow this all constitutes a self.

So to say that in short, self is sensations + voice in the head.
Is it a specific one sensation or a bundle? What happens when you start looking at those sensations? What is behind them?

Is taste sensation self?
Is touch sensation self?
Is visual sensation self?
Is sensation of inner voice self?

Is movement of energy in chest area self?

Notice that voice in a head is a labelling machine. Where attention goes, so narration follows. Are you in control of it? Or is or more like a radio channel, talking away, no matter if anyone is listening.

Sending love.

Mike
Feb 14

Hi

So to say that in short, self is sensations + voice in the head.
Yes, plus an idea that all that is 'self'

Is it a specific one sensation or a bundle? What happens when you start looking at those sensations? What is behind them?

It's a bundle. When I look at them there is nothing behind them. They are just what they are, sensations etc. There is nothing more than that. There is certainly no self there, though I have always identified them as 'self' - and still fall into doing so, even though I can see they are not!

Is taste sensation self?
Is touch sensation self?
Is visual sensation self? 
Is sensation of inner voice self? 

Is movement of energy in chest area self?

None of these sensations are self in themselves, nor are thoughts. Thoughts are just thoughts, the inner voice is just a narration, the sensations and energy are just sensations and energy, something alive, something fluid, something arising and falling away, but not a 'self'.

Notice that voice in a head is a lab belong machine. Where attention goes, so narration follows. Are you in control of it? Or is or more like a radio channel, talking away, no matter if anyone is listening.

No, 'I' am in control of this inner voice to some extent. Well, not I, I can't find an 'I' now! What I mean is that when there is awareness of it, it calms down, fades away or is more directed.

There is no separate self found.  What 'I' have thought of as self, well there's actually nothing there more than a collection of shifting sensations etc. This is slowly sinking into awareness, but it's like it has not penetrated very deep into 'my' being. Like this being can't really accept it yet. Though there is a growing conviction, a knowing in the heart, that self is just a fabrication, a ghost, a story, a mirage.

There's generally a sense of a calm, gentle unfolding of something that is still not completely clear. Yesterday I had a moment of seeing that self is empty, just something I am reading into experience, intuiting it more clearly and at that moment there was something like a rush of adrenalin. I took it to be fear, but I'm not sure it was exactly fear. More a sudden falling away of the ground under my feet and a rush! Sort of like falling through into life itself and a feeling of vertigo. However, apart from that there seems to be simply a growing trust that this is just the way things are and that something is unfolding naturally.

There is a desire for intense communication with you, but I know that the only thing that really matters is just to keep looking.  There is still some expectation or longing for something to 'snap', 'pop', 'break' or whatever, and because it doesn't despondancy can arise. But I'm seeing that no, this denies a deeper, gentler, more organic unfolding that is real.

Hovering between feeling that much more intense effort is needed to 'break through', on the one hand, and on the other, feelings of OK, something is being seen, trust in that, go with it, relax into it, what has been seen is real, there's further to go but something has opened up, something is now playing itself out. There's a sense that it is the latter that needs to be recognised and allowed to flow, but there are also feelings of not wanting more delusion. Also probably an habitual tendency to intensity and lack of courage when it comes to just letting go into what is emerging!

Ilona, do you have a sense of what is needed? Does it matter?

With love and heartfelt thanks for taking the time to help. It is extraordinary and completely unexpected. I'm not even sure how this has come about!

Ilona
Feb 14

Thanks for answer, nice work.

So self is an idea, not a sensation and not a thing that is behind sensations to which sensations happen.

What does it mean in daily life?

I see the process is going smooth and there is trust in what is coming up, keep going.
The waiting for the pop now is one of obstacles. The shift may be unnoticeably subtle.

When you open your eyes and see the view, do you need to switch seeing on?
Can you switch hearing on and off at will?
How about other sensations?

The same is with this expected break through, there is nothing to break through, all is already here, now, just notice, what is obvious.  There is sense of presence, aliveness, being (verb) is there anything missing? Does anything need to fall into place? Focus on being (verb), was this sensation ever different?

If there is no I at all, can this imagined I realise that it does not exist?

Sending love.

Mike
Feb 15

Thanks for getting back yesterday.

Not much to say at the moment in terms of seeing. Feelings of confusion. Has self really been seen for what it is, an illusion? If so, nothing has really changed. The imagined 'I' still kicks in, is still here, just that now it doesn't have such a hold. It's not taken literally. But damn does it still pull and push and sometimes rule!

What does it mean in daily life knowing that self is an idea, something imagined, not really real? To be completely honest, it doesn't mean that much at the moment! There is maybe a change in how 'I' am with other people, more present, less concerned about 'me', more empathy. But I still get caught up in 'I' and 'me' etc. Moments of letting go, more of a sense of flow, but then that passes.

There is still an 'I' wanting to see through 'I'. Your question "If there is no I at all, can this imagined I realise that it does not exist?" seems to point to where understanding fails. It's driving me nuts! It takes my breath away. It's an unanswerable puzzle, a koan. And it's a really uncomfortable place to be! I don't like it and find it heard to stay with it. It corners 'me' and something inside is squirming like hell!

Been feeling that maybe I've seen absolutely nothing. 'I' am still trying to see through 'I'. On one level I know 'I' is imagined - I see it - but even so 'I' am still there seeing!. Looking for the break through or something. There is still 'me' wanting to be free.

Will try to write more later. Feeling sad, sorry that I cannot say to you 'Yes, I've got it'. Feeling very vulnerable. Like that last question points right at me. It is almost sort of humiliating! Like 'I' am still trying to get away with it, but you've seen. Feeling I'm taking up your time, still not getting real or something.

With love

Mike
Feb 15

'I' does not exist as something real - that is increasingly clear. I see that. 'I', 'self' does not really exist. Nothing in experience is actually 'I'. There are just sensations, thoughts etc, ideas, labels, habits in awareness, consciousness...

But there is still a feeling that 'I am'. Still a sense of subject and object.

This is what is confusing. Perception, seeing, experiencing, being, still hold a sense of a subject experiencing, a 'me', though I know and see there is no 'I' there.

I don't understand, but that is the way things seem to be. It kind of makes me laugh, but also to doubt.

Is it possible to see that self is an illusion and yet for there to still to be this sense of a 'me' experiencing?

Ilona
Feb 15

'I' does not exist as something real - that is increasingly clear. I see that. 'I', 'self' does not really exist. Nothing in experience is actually 'I'. There are just sensations, thoughts etc, ideas, labels, habits in awareness, consciousness...

Has it ever existed?

But there is still a feeling that 'I am'.

Yes, feeling is here + the label. If you label the feeling by verb being, does anything get lost?

Still a sense of subject and object.

At this point it is good to investigate how language is involved in the illusion.  This article will give you some directions The Trick of Language

See what else you notice.

This is what is confusing. Perception, seeing, experiencing, being, still hold a sense of a subject experiencing, a 'me', though I know and see there is no 'I' there.

See is life is happening to me or as me. To I or as I expression?

I don't understand, but that is the way things seem to be. It kind of makes me laugh, but also to doubt. 

Hehe, whole thing is well funny. :)

Is it possible to see that self is an illusion and yet for there to still to be this sense of a 'me' experiencing? 

Is it sense that is experiencing or sense is experienced? Is there a gap?

Sending love.

"There is still 'me' wanting to be free."

Can you find that feeling, that sensation of wanting to be free, bring it closer and see what is behind it? What is behind, wanting to be free?

Mike
Feb 16

Thank you Ilona.

Has it ever existed? 

No. 'I', 'self' has never existed as a separate entity. It's always been there, but as something imagined, read into experience, an interpretation of experience, or in experience.

If you label the feeling by verb being, does anything get lost?

No, I don't think so!

There is being (verb). There is awareness, aliveness. But nothing separate from it, that experiences being. You ask if there is a gap. No, I can't see a gap. There is superficially an object being experienced, and a subject 'me' experiencing.  But actually if I look it, it all seems to be happening together. Any idea or feeling of an 'I' is actually just more experience. There is just being - but being there is!

I read the article on language, Thank you. It is almost impossible to talk and think about experience in any way that does not involve a subject and an object. But it's also a trap if taken literally. And a very difficult trap to get out of! There is no literal 'I', and really no literal 'other', but being (verb) is experience, consciousness. Being is not a thing, not an 'I', and there is no 'I' that is being, but neither is 'it' nothing.

See if life is happening to me or as me. To I or as I expression?

Yes, that helps too. Life is happening as 'me'. In fact, it's not even quite that 'I', that being, is an expression of life. Being just is life. There is nothing separate from life, no 'I' that life is happening to or that is watching life, or making it happen, or even giving expression to it.

Is it sense that is experiencing or sense is experienced? Is there a gap?

Yes, this sense of 'me' is something experienced, or rather it is in experience. I make a gap by turning what is sensed into something real, separate. But actually there is no gap, it is all happening in experiencing, in being.

Can you find that feeling, that sensation of wanting to be free, bring it closer and see what is behind it? What is behind, wanting to be free?

I need to look at this more closely still. I know that this wanting to be free emerges from the illusion that there is an 'I' that is not free. There is no 'I' to be free or trapped. But this wanting to be free, to break through or whatever, still acts like a hook somewhere. I want to keep looking closer, more directly at this. Will try to do so and write again. Your question 'Can this imagined 'I' realise that it does not exist?' still haunts me. This imagined 'I' is on some level still trying to realise it does not exist, still trying to get free. It's like this imagined 'I' imagines it does not exist! Again, it does make me laugh, but I just can't quite shake it off.

Curious process this!

Ilona
Feb 17

Hehe, it definitely is a curious process and very eye opening.
From your answers I see that clarity is growing by day. Very nice.

Lets look closer at this sense of longing for freedom.

Imagine you are in a closed box and all you want to do is get out. Imagine how you struggle and seek an opening so you can see what is outside the box. Feel the frustration and sense of wanting to break free.

This is how this search is like- imagined I is looking for freedom from imagined prison.

There is no box already.
There is no I already.
Freedom is here, just waiting to be noticed and recognised.

If you stop imagining the box you can see, that it never was here, just a trick of imagination. And imagination is very powerful tool.

So it's ok to relax and notice what is here already always free, boundless and limitless. There is no need to fight imaginary prison. It is not here. The I is not here.

What is here?

Sending love.

Mike
Feb 18

Sorry not to have replied earlier. Things have got a bit busy.

The longing to break through or whatever seems to be fading. More of a sense of just being, I think. Falling into the story of an 'I' trying to see that 'I' is not real still goes on, but doesn't perhaps have such a grip? At least not yesterday and today!

Waking in the morning there does seem to be some kind of resistance still going on. Seems to be a sort of reaction to making effort that in some way is still a bit wilful or something. What I have noticed though is a growing confidence in 'I' being an illusion, even when the 'I' tendency re-emerges or awareness/mindfulness is lost. There seems to be a basic trust, a basic knowing now that 'I' is something imagined, and that knowing or whatever is becoming more and more of a resting place.

What is here if the imaginary prison and I are not here? Really not sure. Something very, very simple though. Feelings, thoughts, sensations, responses, imagination, ideas, language, likes and dislikes, emotions. But they are just much simpler in some way. Don't know quite what it is, how to put it. Maybe it's that they are just what they are, without some complication. I hadn't really noticed till you asked, but there's definitely something to look at more here. Experience has somehow got 'simpler', I don't know what other word to use. Amazingly simple really! Makes me really happy noticing it now as I write.

It really does focus things writing to you like this. Even when things get busy. Thank you!

Ilona
Feb 20

How is it going mike?

Here is something for you to work with. It's called Bahiya sutta
Spend a day looking thought this angle and write what you noticed.

In the seen, there is only the seen,
in the heard, there is only the heard,
in the sensed, there is only the sensed,
in the cognized, there is only the cognized.
Thus you should see that
indeed there is no thing here;
this, Bahiya, is how you should train yourself.
Since, Bahiya, there is for you
in the seen, only the seen,
in the heard, only the heard,
in the sensed, only the sensed,
in the cognized, only the cognized,
and you see that there is no thing here,
you will therefore see that
indeed there is no thing there.
As you see that there is no thing there,
you will see that
you are therefore located neither in the world of this,
nor in the world of that,
nor in any place
betwixt the two.
This alone is the end of suffering.

Sending love.

Mike
Feb 21

Hi

I know this sutta quite well. But it has been good to now really look at things through this perspective, Thank you for sending it. It feels like the sutta describes and deepens something known now, rather than 'me' trying to know and understand the sutta.

What have I noticed? The simplicity of experience mentioned in the last email. A 'wholeness' of experience. And a couple of moments of strongly experiencing existence just happening, just unfolding, just being. Phenomena just arising and fading away. No 'in here' or 'out there', no sense of separation, no 'me'.

This seeing is by no means continuous, Ilona, but it is readily accessible if I just stop and actually look. This is what needs establishing, stopping and looking. A continuous looking . When there is looking, increasingly there is this simplicity of experience without a supposed separate 'me' looking, without separate 'things' being looked at. But at times there is no real looking and old ways of seeing arise. Irritation and craving based on 'I' still are there at times. Though 'no-self' is seen, when daily activity pulls me away that seeing is at times not strong enough to see 'no-self' in every moment, every place, at all times.

The Bahiya sutta now seems a very precious guide to what has been glimpsed and what needs deepening. It is beautiful in its simplicity and directness. It feels just right. Thank you!

Writing to you, every time something seems to fall into place.

With love

Ilona
Feb 21

Dear mike,

I'm glad that the sutta landed in the right place and is doing it's work.

Yes, seeing it once is an opening, and its always available when looked. The more you look, the more is seen trough and all starts falling in the place.  But at the same time, old patters and structures start falling off, nothing that is not true stays. So stuff comes up to be noticed and released. This is a huge clean up operation. Life time of conditioning does not get undone in one hit. Lots of people expect this to be an end of suffering or unwanted emotions. But it's just a beginning. How it is for you is unique. Trust your experience and keep looking :) Getting lost in stories is too an experience. Just they are no longer seen as real, don't need to be taken seriously.

I wrote a new post on my blog, it may be helpful..

Sending love.

Mike
Feb 23

Hi

Thanks for the blog post. Very helpful reflections. There are still expectations of what the experience of seeing through self should be like. "Trust your experience and keep looking" is really helpful advice at the moment. Thank you!

A simple, obvious realisation today, but one that seems to have shifted something a bit. It's realizing that even when  'I'-ness habits, emotions etc re-emerge, there is still no self; even when 'I' imagined 'I' to be real, there was no self; even though others seem to imagine 'I' is real, there is no 'I' there. There never has been, never is, and never will be 'I', no matter what!

You wrote that there is a huge clean-up operation. I can see that. Still a whole legacy of ignorance to live through. Sometimes it seems a struggle to hold that and at the same time trust. But the sense of struggle is really just more expectations. Things flow on, sometimes good, sometimes not so good, but that needn't be a struggle. No 'I', no expectations, no suffering.

"Trust your experience and keep looking".

Magic!

Love

Ilona
Feb 23

:)

A simple, obvious realisation today, but one that seems to have shifted something a bit. It's realizing that even when  'I'-ness habits, emotions etc re-emerge, there is still no self; even when 'I' imagined 'I' to be real, there was no self; even though others seem to imagine 'I' is real, there is no 'I' there. There never has been, never is, and never will be 'I', no matter what!

This is a huge step, step over the line.
How does it feel to see this?

What do you notice in your daily ordinary situations? What is the same and what feels different?

Sending love.

Mike
Feb 25

Hi Ilona,

What is the same, what feels different? Everything is the same. But there is less stickiness in relation to what arises. 'I' attitudes, emotions, thoughts arise, but it's like they don't have anywhere to hang on to, to stick to. They come, they pass and that's that.

Yesterday I was with friends and there was a strong seeing that they are not 'I's either. In the seeing of this there was then no responding to them as 'I's, no expecting anything of them, no wanting them to be this or that. There was love I guess, but not love as something that arises because they are how I want them to be. There was joy and a deep appreciation of them as 'life', just 'being'.

Something I have been noticing is that I have been sleeping loads. Maybe it's coincidence. It feels like I could sleep for a hundred years! It doesn't feel wrong, it feels more like a deep resting is needed just now. Sometimes a strange meloncholy is there too. A kind of dropping away of something, though I don't know if I can say what.

How does it feel to see that there is and never been this 'I'? Great! 'Connected' is what comes to mind. A simple 'being'.

Do you know those images where if you look at them in a certain way you can suddenly see the image in 3D? The experience of seeing the image is a bit like how this seeing of the illusion of 'I' is. Below is an image with a description of how to see it in 3D. Until you've done it it's really hard to see, but once you've done it that's it. You know there really is a 3D image there, and it's easier to see whenever you want. You just need to practice a bit, get more confidence, train yourself in seeing 3D.

This is what it's a bit like at the moment with seeing there is no 'I'. I know there is no 'I' because I keep seeing it. Sure, I often slip back into seeing in 2D, but seeing in 3D is becoming more comfortable or something. Of course the analogy is very limited, but seeing no-self feels like a completely new way of looking. Unlike the 3D image, it's just looking and seeing what actually is.

And my overall sense of seeing that 'I' is not real is not a lack of something, but a seeing of something. There is something else which becomes visible or sensed once the 'I' is seen through.



With love, joy and appreciation

Oops! Sorry, the image doesn't seem to want to be e-mailed.

You can see images here.
.....................


“The cross-eyed view method uses the right and left images exchanged and views the images cross-eyed with the right eye viewing the left image and vice-versa.
In order to do so, hold up a finger or pencil in front of the image about 1/3 to 1/2 way to the screen. Look at the pencil but concentrate on the doubled images on the screen. Move the pencil closer or further until they overlap to produce three images. The center one should be 3d, but out of focus. Then you need to shift your focus onto the center image without having it jump back to 2d.”

Mike
Feb 28

Dear Ilona

I am wondering now where things are at regarding our conversation. It has been so helpful, and you have been so kind in giving over time to help.

I have no doubt now regarding the illusory nature of 'self'. However, you may think or feel that there is still a need to see more clearly or more deeply. I am completely open to that.

Do you have a suggestion about where our conversation should go from here?

With love

Ilona
Feb 28

Hi mike, sorry I did not respond earlier..
Your 3d analogy is great and thanks for all them pics and link, it was well interesting to see :)

I'm so happy to hear that illusion of separate self has been seen through. You mention that you feel that something need a to be seen deeper, what would that be? Have you got some questions that we could look together? Bring them on.

Can you say with full honesty that YES, the shift has happened? If do, are you ready for final questions?

Sending love

ps, I read all emails, just some days can not answer all.. In that case, just write to me anyway. Writing helps mind to focus, you know that ;)

Mike
Mar 1

Thanks Ilona.

Can I say with full honesty that Yes, the shift has happened?

What I can say is that I now see being but not a being, presence but no presence in that presence. I see self, but not a self, soul but not a soul. There is no 'I' that has or 'owns' this being or presence, no 'I' in self or soul, no 'I' outside of experience that is watching or controlling. That is what I see. There is a bundle of associated processes that form being, 'souling'. A sense of 'I' can arise in the midst of these processes, but it is make believe, it doesn't refer to anything actually existing.

In these conversations with you I have gone from wanting to convince myself there is no 'I', to accepting that actually I do believe in an 'I' and being prepared to really look at that, to then seeing that no, there is no 'I' but still with expectations of what that means and what I should see and feel, to seeing that those expectations are still 'I' (the imagined 'I' trying to see that it does not exist), to seeing that just as there is no 'I' neither is there 'other', and to now seeing more clearly that though there is no 'I' and no 'other' there is still being (a verb, as you so well put it), still soul, presence, experience or whatever, still the mysterious unfolding of life as 'self and other', but without an 'I' and not as separate 'things'.

Does that make sense?

This is what has happened. It has not been a big, sudden change, but has been gradual and feels like it comes on the back of a gradual process of many, many years. But the conversation with you has pushed that process into a space of clarity and seeing. Is it the shift that you are trying to help me and others make? When I read what you write about that shift, I think yes, it is.

I don't know if there is something deeper to see, but my experience with all this is that nearly every day something new falls into place! The implications of what I am seeing open up. I still seem to be seeing new things, or the same thing but with greater clarity. My experience is that yes, there is still deeper seeing to discover, that this seeing through the illusion of 'I' is actually just a new beginning. But that may be beyond the scope of your work, of simply helping others to see through the illusion of 'I'.

With love

Ilona
Mar 3

Very nice!

Does that make sense? 

Yes, makes perfect sense. The imagined I can stop looking now if it exist or not. It's imagined.  :)

This is what has happened. It has not been a big, sudden change, but has been gradual and feels like it comes on the back of a gradual process of many, many years. But the conversation with you has pushed that process into a space of clarity and seeing. Is it the shift that you are trying to help me and others make? When I read what you write about that shift, I think yes, it is. 

Yes, shift can be very subtle, but implications are immense.

I don't know if there is something deeper to see, but my experience with all this is that nearly every day something new falls into place! The implications of what I am seeing open up. I still seem to be seeing new things, or the same thing but with greater clarity. My experience is that yes, there is still deeper seeing to discover, that this seeing through the illusion of 'I' is actually just a new beginning. But that may be beyond the scope of your work, of simply helping others to see through the illusion of 'I'. 

Haha, this is just a beginning :) there is so much to explore when seeking ends, fun begins, even though it does not always feel like fun..

With love

How are you feeling today? Anything interesting that you've been noticing?
Are you ready for the final questions?

Much love to you, mike.

Mike
Mar 4

Hi Ilona

Am I ready for the final questions? I guess so, if you feel it's important that I answer them.

Love

Ilona
Mar 4

to Mike
Answering those questions gives you an opportunity to clarify more. So here they are :)
Please answer in full, when ready.

Much love.

Mike
Mar 4

Hi

Answering those questions gives you an opportunity to clarify more. So here they are :)
OK

1) Is there a separate 'me' 'I' 'self' , at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?
No

2) in the experience, is there an experiencer? Is it body that experiences or is the body the experienced?

There's just experience. The body neither experiences, nor is it experienced in the sense of a separate 'I' experiencing it. I don't think I can say more than what I more or less wrote to you the other day: there is being but not a being, presence but no presence in that presence. I see self, but not a self, soul but not a soul. There is no 'I' that has or 'owns' this being or presence, no 'I' in self or soul, no 'I' outside of experience that is watching or controlling or that is having the experience. That is what I see. There is a bundle of associated processes that form being, and it is dynamic. A sense of 'I' can and does arise in the midst of these processes, but it is make believe, it doesn't refer to anything actually existing.

3) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works.

The illusion of a separate self is the belief that somehow there is a me outside of experience - an 'I' that things happen to, or that is somehow separate from thoughts, decisions, acts etc and sort of 'does' them. I think it starts with some aspect of awareness, being, presence or whatever getting mistaken for an 'I' and then that implying a 'them', or an inside and outside, subject and object etc. Experience is split up and parts of it are identified in one way or another with this supposed 'I' (and other parts as 'them' or 'things') and then that identification is taken literally.

4) How does it feel to see this?

There is a simplicity to things, to experience. Experience is just what it is. Sometimes this simplicity is beautiful, awesome, exciting, but more often than not it is sort of normal really. As I say, it is not that a sense of 'I' no longer arises at all, but there is a freedom in relation to it when it does arise. It's known to be just a sense of 'I', and not a real 'I' - and that brings freedom, relief and sometimes real joy!.

5)How would you describe it to somebody who has never heard about this illusion but is curious about it.

It's nothing mystical. It's quite straightforward in a way. It's just being prepared to look at what this basic belief is, whether it is true or not, and seeing that actually things aren't nearly as complex as you thought! It's not a big spiritual experience, it's just seeing what is. It doesn't mean annihilation  nor does it mean becoming some spiritual super-being. But it does change things. It feels like a new beginning - though nothing has actually changed from how things have always been.

6) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look? Can you describe the moment when seeing happened?

I don't think I can no! It's been such a gradual process really. However, writing to you Ilona there were some key moments.

- when I stopped trying to convince myself that 'I' is an illusion, and accepted that actually on some level I still believed in an 'I'
- then being prepared to REALLY look at that belief
- seeing that I couldn't find 'I' - maybe this was when seeing basically happened. I saw that 'I' was actually just a bundle of sensations and thoughts, along with the idea of an 'I', but that it was all actually taking place WITHIN experience, as part of experience.
- becoming aware of expectations, and seeing that at their core was just an imagined 'I' trying to see that it didn't exist - this was important too - seeing that there is no 'I' doing the seeing.
- seeing that 'other' is no truer than 'I'
- seeing that though there is no separate 'I' there is being, awareness, presence etc - the unfolding of 'life'.

7) Anything to add?
Not really, not at the moment Ilona.

Love

Ilona

Hi mike,

I really enjoyed reading your answers, you put all so simply and perfectly, thank you. I can see that non existent gate has been crashed, yey! I'm very happy for you.

Could I put this on my blog? It may be of help for someone else. I can you your name or whatever name you choose, does not matter. Once other guides read our conversation, they may have some questions too, or I can invite you to join Facebook groups, where you can meet other LU members and share with them.

Lots of love to you! Have a wonderful day.

Mike

Hi Ilona,

No, I don't mind you putting our conversation on your blog if it is going to help.

Yesterday I had a slightly odd experience. I was in the kitchen, making a cup of tea, looking at how there was just experience, with no 'I' outside of it. Suddenly it was like this little current ran through my body and an even deeper experience opened up of sort of 'oneness' with what was going on, with experience. It was like awareness and experience sort of melted into each other or something. I can't really find the words to describe it adequately.

This is the sort of thing I mean when I wrote earlier that the experience of no separate self still seems to be unfolding, deepening.

With love.

KJ: The Anxiety that Was Here for Years Started Melting

This was long conversation and it was beautiful to see the change in KJ. There was fear, anxiety and uncertainty, intense looking and laughing out loud. It's my pleasure to share this story of transformation. 


KJ
November

Hi Ilona,

My name is KJ. I am 40 year old man from Finland. Or that is how the story goes :)

I've been following your blog "marked eternal" for some months now. There is something in your communication with people that resonates with me strongly.

I know that you have this liberation unleashed project, and that you have many people "working there", but I would really like to clear some things up with you if that is possible.

So I just write very shortly now and ask if you could help me?

Best wishes,

Ilona
Hi KJ. Yes, I can be here for you. I may not reply everyday, but you keep writing to me daily. It's how mind clarifies thinking.

So what brought you here? What are you looking for? What are you expecting to see?

Bring it all on.


And before answering please read the disclaimer on this page.  It sums a lot what is not going to happen. Just so you know where you are going.
http://www.liberationunleashed.com/
Much love.

KJ
Hi. You asked me to write daily even if you don't answer.
 "What are you expecting to see?" was the question.

 Randall Friend wrote today in his blog:

-------------
"Consciousness IS experience.   As long as Consciousness continues to arise, experience will continue.  Once Consciousness ceases experience will cease.

However existence is not dependent upon experience.  Existence IS THAT which IS -that which IS, right this very moment, that which IS no matter what experience may hold. "

 ---------------

Ok....This is the one thing where I am stuck. I understand that consciousness and experience are the same thing. However he is saying that existence in not dependent upon experience. In other words that existence is not dependent upon consciousness.
I mean how can there be any knowing of existing without consciousness????

 So I guess this means that without body-brain-consciousness, there is no existing...

Ilona
Ok, KJ, let's start again.


What are your expectations?
No quotes, no philosophy, go right down to what YOU feel and expect. What do you want from awakening? How will you recognize it.

Make a list:
1.
2
3....

And sincerely put all down.

Focus is very important in this process.

Cool?

KJ
 My list is short. There's only one thing.
I want to live without fear. All my life I've been afraid and I want that to end. And I don't mean kind of fear if someone pulls gun on my face, but psychological fear and anxiety. I don't need to be ultra-happy all the time. I just want all the suffering that is based on separate self idea to end.

Above is same as awakening to me. I don't care about any words like enlightenment or liberation. End of suffering=liberation.

And I will recognize it when that fear is not arising anymore.

Ok, that's it.

.........................
Hi Ilona,

I don't know if you read my earlier email but I have to report to you. I had realization this morning. I had many before but this one was most powerful. It is little bit covered by now but I learned very important lesson. I realized that there is NO WAY that this type of suffering (that I wrote you about earlier), can hold up when this is fully realized. Why? Because there IS NO ONE HERE! it is nobody's suffering :)
There is something here...but it is not separate someone doing anything.

This "I" is just some kind of thought loop in the brain.
Oh yeah...like if I could make thoughts happen...what a joke. Like I could tell to my brain to move my arms or legs...what a joke!  I laughed when this was realized. Now I know what it means when they say "cosmic joke"..hehhee

I'll get back to you later.

.............................
Ahahaaaa!!!
How funny is that! So much personal story and attachment where really there is no one here! All the seriousness goes through the window!

Ilona
I'm laughing with you my friend.
Here is a little video, that we made at  LU. I was laughing there for the second day, non stop.

 http://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=plcp&v=SDCJdrcqzDM
:)

What was the last bit that had to be seen through? What pushed you over?

Much love.

KJ
Thank you for videos :) Last bit...hmmm....I was taking a bath and the inquiry about doership arose and I just realized that there is no "I" involved in anything. Body moving...thoughts happening...seeing happening...hearing happening...No self doing any of those things.
Maybe the last bit was that there is no separate I doing thinking.
And even if there was separate I, there is no way that separate I could cause itself. It would have to be created by life.
And therefore it too is life. And that is only thing that is happening...LIFE! :)
But I have to say that there has been these realizations before and always somehow the confusion gets back again. So we will see how this goes.

Do you have any advice for that if it happens?

Thank u

Ilona
If confusion comes back, is there someone to own it?

Yes, sometimes one gets sucked back into the story, but what has been seen can never be unseen. And getting sucked in the story is also life happening by itself.

We have Facebook groups where you can meet others and participating in discussions helps to settle in.

How does it feel today? Is anything different?

Much love.

KJ
Thanks Ilona. yes that is so true. There is something different but I will write to you later because we're going to visit my girlfriends grandmother. But I tell you about it when we come back home.

................................
Hi again,

Facebook...I don't know. I've been avoiding that because I'm working with computer and if I start to hang around in facebook then all my time goes with computers. But I will consider this possibility.

You asked if anything is different. Well...everything is the same. No bliss or intense joy. Mind is not silent.

Oneness experience came and went today.
I used to believe that when realization is "complete" then oneness doesn't fade away anymore.
Maybe today I finally realized that this never was about having any kind of experience...

Thank u.

Ilona
Oh yes, realization is not about ever lasting experience or state. It's about seeing that whatever comes up arises and passes on it's own. That there is no doer, no thinker, no experiencer to which life happens.

How are you feeling today?
Is there a certainty or doubt?
Is there anything else that needs to be understood?

Sending love.

KJ
Hello. I'm feeling ok thank you :) Most of the time there's certainty but some doubts are also arising. There is "this isn't the final understanding"-doubt coming up, because all the suffering is not released yet. But it is also seen that there isn't any landing with this. No final arriving.
I guess it takes time for old habits and conditioning of mind to balance.

No questions coming anyway...

Thanks

Ilona
Of course all the conditioning is still here, it did not get set in a day or two, it takes time to see through all that. This is only a first step, far from final understanding. But without this step, no going further.

Yes, it's a beginning of the fall and there is nowhere to land :)

Final understanding is another sweet carrot that drives one insane.

What is there to understand?
What is here to know?

This waking up is about unknowing everything you thought that you know. And seeing every moment with fresh eyes. This is all there is. As in now.

Time needed to rebalance depends on how much clearing needs to be done. It may require an effort to look through conditioning.

This seeing through illusion is not ending all the suffering. It the beginning of releasing of the sufferer.

Tell me, what is it that suffers? How exactly is suffering happening and where does it happen? What has suffering to do with labels of feelings?

Write to me what you find out.

Sending love.

KJ
I think this releasing of suffering began couple of years ago because the anxiety has diminished so much. Last Sunday however there was this moment where "sufferer" completely disappeared and it was seen that it is impossible to suffer when it's not there. Of course it was never there but you know how difficult this is to explain. It was like "it" had no place to hide anymore. All the possibilities where seen through and there was this moment. So mind has made this formula that "final understanding" is when this moment of seeing comes back and stays forever...hehehee ...enlightenment :)
Answers to your questions:
1. What it is that suffers?
This word "what" wants some kind of object, but there aren't any objects so I would have to say that there is movement and motion of sensations. Suffering = resisting this movement.
2. How exactly is suffering happening and where does it happen?
It seems that this movement of suffering is triggered by certain situations that are expected to bring suffering. I mean they are fantasized before. Where it's happening? Do you mean where in body? There are certain sensations in the body. This is really hard to describe. It's terrible heaviness.
3. What has suffering to do with labels of feelings?
Do you mean words like depression or anxiety or sorrow? These labels points to same movement of energy that is labeled "suffering". But I have to say that maybe I do not understand this question =/

...............................
Hello,

I think I'm not very good at writing if you don't reply. But I'm just checking in now :)
I'm experiencing little bit of mood swinging. There's this irritation because this "seeing" is not stabilizing. Maybe it is not stabilizing because mind expects it to stabilize =/
Tired of this seeking business...
I think another dangerous carrot is this "end of seeking carrot". There is no experience of that, so mind doesn't want to rest...

Ilona
Hi KJ,

I was busy, sorry, could not write. But I'm here and this process is yours, so keep writing to me.

Well, seeing is available every moment. It's not that seeing happened, now it's done.

No. Seeing happened, so it can be seen over and over again and over again. You don't look into the past and miss the experience. You look in the now and see now. That seeing, staring at the void is what is happening and that is how conditioning and beliefs are dropped. It does not happen overnight. Checking lasts for months and stabilization also takes time. It's a big tsunami to the system. Expecting the final done is the last carrot. Is there anyone to arrive anywhere? There is only falling. And no where to land.

It may be frustrating at the beginning as it does not meet your expectations. But expectations are grasping to last straw, let them dissolve and see what is. Face the obvious. And trust that whatever life brings you is exactly what you need. There are no mistakes. Just continuous flow. One movement.

Surrender is what is left when resistances drop. And resistances are showing the way. Every should and shouldn't is in the way of clarity.

Should you be happy and blissful all the time now that the first step happened?

Yeah. It's a very common expectation. Guess what, life does not stop here. It carries on. And saying yes to whatever comes is priceless. Curiosity too as well as willingness to accept lessons and knowing that it's only a beginning to life after the invisible line was crossed.

Be kind to the mind.

Much love.

KJ
Hi there,

Thank you for your answer. Was very helpful.

Things has been very clear again today. In my mind's eye there has been this child on a beach building a sand castle. But nothing that is separate from the sand is created. There is no new thing existing. Only sand.
Only one being morphing endlessly.

So at what point did the separate I began? Ridiculous question....

I hope you have good weekend Ilona :)

Ilona
Good question, at what point separate I began? How would you describe it?
Thank you, weekend is great do far. Wish your being fun too.

Much love.

KJ
Well, it never really did began. Only belief in it began. Maybe somewhere around age 1-3 when mind or brain starts learning meaning of words. Words like "I" "me", "boy", "son", "person" and so on are learned. And name "KJ" points to all of these words.

Of course in my case these labels are in finish language. Actually there are no different words in Finnish language for "I" and "me". Only one word "minä".

And all these words points to a body. Sometimes I or me is this body. Like: I am fat or I am ugly. And sometimes these words point to some kind of entity inside the body who owns it. My arm, my leg, my eye. And of course everything that seems to go on inside body. My feelings and thoughts.

Separate self is a mixture of these elements.
And then self judgement begins. I am good boy or I am terrible son, fearful person. Self image is born. But never a real person who is living somewhere inside, doing things, choosing. That is a fantasy.

What you think. Maybe we could talk little bit about awareness?
I can't deny this experience of living and awareness of it. So it seems that there is something here that is conscious.
But you tell me. How should we proceed?

Ilona
Yes, there is being, awareness, consciousness, reality, life, whatever you wish to call it. Undeniable. Always here now.

Is it I? Or I is a label put over this and assumed to be separate.

And look at body, is it body that is experiencing or body is experience + label 'body'

Is there anything doing looking, seeing?
What is here?

KJ
It's not assumed to be separate because of that.

You could say that body is experienced because of brain.

Without living brain there is no awareness.
So because of that there is separation at some level.
You could say that there's only one life, but experiences are individual.

Please help me with this one. This is the one question that is driving mind insane.

............................
Hi, Don't worry about the brain question.

It cleared this morning :) But I will tell you about it later because I have to start working now.
.............................
Hi,

I'm just checking in. No new questions coming up. Brain-question resolved itself. There cannot be any owner of any experience. Everything is just life happening.
I notice that there is still some kind of waiting-for-something-to-happen-mode going on sometimes.

Ilona
Cool, great to hear.
So can you say that shift has happened and are you ready for the final questions?

:)

KJ
Hi,

I am ready. But I would prefer that if you not publish our conversation. If that's ok with you?
I could say that there is a "shift". The separate self is a total fantasy and I think it's impossible for my brain to start believing that again.

But conditioning is still strong, and that is also the reason why I don't want this to be published.
For some reason I don't want to go very public with these things. I do not know the exact reason.

I want to thank you for your help. I think this kind of work is a gift to mankind.

:)

Ilona
Hi KJ.

I would not publish anything without your permission. Some people prefer if I use a different name it just an initial. But if I don't publish, I can't have other guides to look through and ask questions if they have any, also I can not invite you to support groups where you can get help with working through conditioning. There are lots of new people that you may want to share your experiences with.

 So if you feel strong resistance you may ask a question, what is there to protect and from what?

And perhaps we can work a bit longer, till you have a clear yes, shift happened, all is clear.
What would you like to address before the last questions?

Sending love.

KJ
Ok thank you. Before we go any further I would like to ask you if you read all emails I send to you? Including those where I told you about my history (or story)?

I didn't get reply from you to all of them. That's why I ask. When you answer to this email I then know how to continue from here.

Ilona
Yes, I read all emails.

KJ
Ok good. Then I must ask that if those type of things I wrote to you, are still huge problem for me. Do I have clear eyes?
I mean being around other people is difficult for me. And worrying if they read about "my" story from your blog. I honestly don't know.
I really cannot believe in separate self. But problems and suffering that are caused by belief in one, still exist.

So...what to do?

Thank you for your patience.

Ilona
Hmm, if you still see problems as something you have, then we can look deeper. No rush, it takes as long as it takes, until there is clarity.

So you say, that you can not believe in separate self, that's cool, but how about separate selves in others? Are there others?

What is the worst that can happen if someone would read a story about you? Do you need to protect a story? What makes the story 'mine'?

Write what you notice.  Trust that all is unfolding as it should.


Much love.

KJ
These are all excellent questions. I will dive into them during this weekend.

Thanks Ilona :)

Ilona
Cool :)
Write to me when you got answers.

Much love to you, KJ.

KJ
Are there others? What is the worst that can happen if someone would read a story about you? Do you need to protect a story? What makes the story 'mine'?
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Something came up regarding to these questions. This is two part answer.
Part 1.

You know I could give you good "advaita answer" and say that there is no others or there is no world or nothing exists, but I will not.

Yes. There seems to be a belief that there are others with their own lives and I don't want to be responsible for ruining it for them. That is why there is fear of someone reading my story. Because it can lead them asking me questions about this stuff. And that can lead into serious mental problems for them, if I tell them about reality of life. And if they get mental problems it is my fault and then they will not like me very much. Here we see how the root fear is: "not being liked". Others will not like (love) me. Separation.

I think that at the bottom of all these problems are the core fear that other people will not like me. If I show them my emotions, they will not like me. They will see my true nature and they will just laugh at me and tell me I'm stupid or something. Or that they will be angry with me. I had very difficult childhood and lived in constant fear because my father was a very angry man with difficult mental problems and alcoholism.

Yes. All of this seems to be protection of self image. Maybe the loosing of that image is then same as death (for the mind)

Part 2.

There seems to be others who are still lost in their illusion and not seeing their true nature. And of course that then makes me this realized and wise person. Strange thing is that I realize that this is totally bullshit, but then in the next moment I feel anger if someone is acting based on the false beliefs. But I also realize that it is not false beliefs for them. Just for me.
And maybe the key thing to see would be that there isn't anyone acting...

Ok. Let's continue from here...

...............................
Hi there,

Yesterdays answer was mind stuff. So I will give you another answer from understanding. I just came from walk and something cleared up again. Thoughts were wrestling with this "is there others" question. So there was seeing that, no there is no others or me or anything because I can't find any beginning or end of anything.
So there was walking and suddenly I was everything. Trees, road, dark sky, rain, buildings. Somehow everything has this same essence. I came home and this woman was singing on TV. Suddenly there was burst of joy and tears came. Out of nowhere Seems that this starts to happen more often. Some kind of dam inside is breaking...beautiful :)

Ilona
Oh wow, beautiful..

Nice. Spacious.
So me has been seen to be an illusion?

When you look at KJ, what do you see?

Much love.

KJ
Hi,

This feels almost like a trick question. I will answer to this question when I find the me. Then I can tell if it's a illusion or not.

I can say that it is seen, but there is also falling into doubt and confusion. But it is clear that there is no one falling. It's just thinking. And believing that thinking creates the confusion.

Thanks Ilona :)

.................................

Ilona
hi KJ, how is it going?

KJ
Hi Ilona. is going ok. Sorry I haven't been very active on writing past couple of days. There has been clarity today. Absence of self. It seems that this pattern of clarity and then falling into confusion and kind of depression is going on. That is why it's so difficult to write sometimes. But I actually don't know what to write.
I hope all is going well for you.

............................
Hi there,

I have nothing much to report. Just wanted to check in. All is pretty clear Today there was intense happiness (funny words that "there and here" because I don't know where there/here actually is, it's placeless place)

Very intense energy is going on inside body (actually don't know if that is inside body or placeless place again) and some pain coming to acupuncture points.

Well, that's it for now :)

Ilona
Sounds like you are having fun!

So is there an I in control of what is happening?
Is there a me to be happy of unhappy?

When you look at body, is it your body or body? Is it the body that experiences?

How was your day today?

Describe the view. :)
Sending love.

KJ
No, no I. There is no one controlling anything. No me to be happy or unhappy. And no owner of the body either. When I seem to forget this I always think about the axe :) There's handle and there's blade. But where is the axe itself? Axe is the owner of the blade and the handle??!!...ridiculous. But then again. These are just loops of thought. No one thinking them. Everything is happening automatically.

Today has been fine. It's day off from work because it's independence day. They say that "we are independent from the rest of the world". I sometimes wonder how on earth I managed to go on for 37 years and not seeing the joke Well, it is really convincing illusion.

Thank you Ilona :)

Ilona
You are very welcome!

What happens, when you look at what is looking? What is it that sees?

When you look at others, family, friends, strangers, has the view changed? How?

Much love.

KJ
Hello,
There is nothing that is looking. There is an activity of focusing but it moves on it's own. It only appears that it is under control when focus is in itself. I guess this focusing is the main illusion. That there is some entity moving the focus like flashlight. There is not. The entity is clearly imagined. And this imaging is happening by itself also. There is no way out of this loop because there is no one in the loop! Or maybe there's a way out of it by just seeing the insanity of this. So far it seems that mind or thought is incredibly attracted to this looping thing.

Life appears as sights, sounds, smells, tastes, without a point that is doing those things. But I must say that lately there has been a quality or difference between intellectually grasping this and actually seeing it. Very difficult to explain. I've been having these oneness experiences for long time now but after I started to check this again with you there has been clear recognition couple of times that could be described as absence. Absence of what...I don't know. But I also notice the trap here. Mind is trying to make some kind of goal out of this "true seeing" and push "the seeing of absence" to future.

I guess the most difficult area is with family and friends, so I am still getting angry and frustrated with them. I don't know if one gets ever rid of that. How it is with you? There are times when there's clear recognition of others as myself. But this comes and goes.

Thanks Ilona.

........................
Hi Ilona,

So many days has passed that I assume that you will not answer to my last email. Anyway I have a question for you :)

I think you said somewhere on your site that there will be some kind of knowing or something when the search is over. Can you tell me what you mean by this statement?

I wish you merry Christmas

Ilona
Hi KJ!
Great to hear from you :)
Sorry I did not answer your last email. I was getting sucked in some other stuff...

How is it going?
Can you say that shift has happened? Are there any doubts?

Sending love.

KJ
Hi, Sorry late answer. I was having some difficulties with internet connection. It is going ok thank you. Shift? I don't know. Who or what is there to shift?
I have doubts but I don't write them now because (and don't take this wrong way :) I wrote so much to you and you did not answer to questions. So I think it's a waste of time to write if you are not answering. You asked if I have any doubts. Look at my last email. There is a question. You could also label it a doubt. You can answer to that if you want.

Sorry about this but I have to be honest with you. I really appreciate this, but I am getting a feeling that you want to go through this quickly and get another feather to your hat. Maybe that is why you ignore all the questions. I don't know maybe you have so many people writing to you that you don't have time. Or maybe this is just my fantasy.

If I would say to you now that seeking is over, I would lie. And I think you said that honesty is a key thing in seeing through the illusion.
Do you still want to continue or is there anything to do at this point?

Thank you so much Ilona

Ilona
In this process it is you that finds answers to your questions and mine. What I think is irrelevant. I can only guide you by holding your focus on right questions.

Writing is a tool to focus the mind. If you write to me, I read, of course, but I don't respond because, again, it's irrelevant. Your search is your own. And it is you here that got to think for yourself, trusting your direct experience. This is not a friendly conversation where I answer your questions. You have a question- work it till you know. By yourself, for yourself, for the love of truth. I'm here to help you with that, but not to do your work.

I care not for any feather on my hat, as the biggest gift for me from you is your recognition of freedom. Please don't believe the stories that your mind creates about me. It's just mental images.

Ok. So your question was and still is how do you know when the search is over?
How would you know?

If the search is still going, it's obviously still here.

The questions I suggest- is there a searcher, or search is going on by itself? Are you doing the searching? Can you stop at will? Can you just quit, if you choose so? Is there any control over what is happening?

Sending love.

KJ
It is possible that you already received one reply to this mail but I'm not sure because I have still problems with internet connection.

I am writing this from another computer shortly, but I will get back to you later when I get my connection back. Your answer was quite powerful. I thank you for it. It really stopped all the bullshit that mind is throwing. I let this question of "ending the search" sit until I get my internet back. Thank you for not giving up with me :)

.........................
Hello. Ok. I got my net connection back.
How would I know when the search is over?
It is obvious and clear that there is no one doing the seeking. It cannot be stopped by illusory will power.
If one believes all the sages and enlightened people who are saying that all mental suffering can be resolved by seeing this then I would say that the search ends when suffering ends.

But I think that you said that suffering doesn't end on awakening but is resolved over time.
Also there is this unity experience coming and going. It's more often now since I started to talk with you. There is this constant expectation that when this experience doesn't leave then that is also a sign of search ending.

But I'm beginning to see that this unity experience must always go at some point because it comes. Like all experience.

I'm quite tired of this flip flopping. I really don't know even what I'm seeking anymore. It seems that these moments of clarity and happiness comes, but they always go.
What's next I don't know?

Ilona
Hello. Ok. I got my net connection back.
How would I know when the search is over?
It is obvious and clear that there is no one doing the seeking. It cannot be stopped by illusory will power.

Nice.

If one believes all the sages and enlightened people who are saying that all mental suffering can be resolved by seeing this then I would say that the search ends when suffering ends.

Seeing this first time is an opening. From that seeing everything starts falling off, nothing that is not true sticks anymore... So suffering does not end instantly, but there is a space around it and it is no longer seen as bad or wrong.

When you go to school first year, you are not expecting to pass high school exams, just the same here, taking the first peak does not end all suffering. It's the beginning of dissolving beliefs and suffering is closely connected to them.

But I think that you said that suffering doesn't end on awakening but is resolved over time.
Also there is this unity experience coming and going. It's more often now since I started to talk with you. There is this constant expectation that when this experience doesn't leave then that is also a sign of search ending.

Search ends, when you no longer look for answers from someone else, you find all your answers by yourself. And second hand experience is confirming what you see, rather then being a source of knowledge of what you should see.  That is obvious, when you read or listen to somebody else's experiences and recognize what they are talking about.

But I'm beginning to see that this unity experience must always go at some point because it comes. Like all experience.

Yes, experiences are impermanent.

I'm quite tired of this flip flopping.

It is ok to relax.

I really don't know even what I'm seeking anymore.

Maybe you are not seeking anymore? Check.

It seems that these moments of clarity and happiness comes, but they always go.
What's next I don't know?

Nice.  I don't know either :)

Much love.

KJ
Hi Ilona, and thank you for your answer. Fantastic stuff.
This sentence I didn't quite understand. Could you put it in other words...please ? :) -----------------------

And second hand experience is confirming what you see, rather then being a source of knowledge of what you should see.  That is obvious, when you read or listen to somebody else's experiences and recognize what they are talking about.
--------------------  Happy new year! :)

Ilona
hm, i must say, when you cross the line, it makes perfect sense.
in other words, your direct experience and your own description of it is your first hand experience. when anyone else describes what they see, it is a second hand experience. these second hand descriptions are just that, descriptions, but if you see the same, you recognize what these descriptions are in your direct experience. so when you see clearly and read something by someone else there is confirmation of what you see.

hope that makes it clearer.

how is it going?

happy new year to you!
much love.

KJ
ok thanks, now I got it. Maybe it was the concept second hand that got me confused. But I am not 100% sure if I crossed the line...

it's going ok thank you. Yesterday was again stunning clarity. You asked me to check if seeking is still going on. It was clear that there was no one seeking. How is that even possible? But at the same time when there's recognition of seeker missing, there is also fear that if I let go of seeking "I will never get this" and fall back to old. Whatever that means...Then...who can let go of seeking and fall back? Somehow it feels that I just need final little push...I don't know what that could be. Maybe the need for that final little push is the last obstacle. And then what?

Ilona
ok thanks, now I got it. Maybe it was the concept second hand that got me confused. But I am not 100% sure if I crossed the line...

Then you haven't.  There is definite knowing when line is crossed. Knowing that there never was any line.

it's going ok thank you. Yesterday was again stunning clarity. You asked me to check if seeking is still going on. It was clear that there was no one seeking. How is that even possible? But at the same time when there's recognition of seeker missing, there is also fear that if I let go of seeking "I will never get this" and fall back to old.

Nice. But what is that I that will never get this? Find that I. Perhaps look behind the fear.

Whatever that means...Then...who can let go of seeking and fall back? Somehow it feels that I just need final little push...I don't know what that could be. Maybe the need for that final little push is the last obstacle. And then what?

Then just more of the same- chop wood, carry water. :) but without the urge to get out from here and now to whatever 'next'.

What is not on automatic?

Sending love.

KJ
This "crossing the line" is same thing as "stop believing in separate self" correct?
When I am feeling fear with other people and urge to escape, isn't this same as believing that there is separate self?

So how can I know that some kind of line is crossed when these things still happen?

There is no way that I could know.
I can know these moments of relief when it is realized that there is no separate self. But these always fade away.

It seems that I'm holding this complete end of suffering as a sign that line is crossed.
But I also know that it is bullshit. How can something that has been going on for over 40 years disappear so quickly?
Many teachers really say that it can happen. Maybe it does for some.
Ok, this seems to be just babbling with myself. But I think you said that it's the whole point. Answer your own questions.

I feel like Gollum/Smeagol split...

Leave now and never come back!!!!! You know that scene? It's fantastic!

Hehe...Comment if you want :)

Ilona
This "crossing the line" is same thing as "stop believing in separate self" correct?

Yes.

When I am feeling fear with other people and urge to escape, isn't this same as believing that there is separate self?

No. That is feeling fear, nothing to do with self or no self. It's to do with old hidden beliefs and emotional wounds.

So how can I know that some kind of line is crossed when these things still happen?

When you stop thinking that these things should not happen.

There is no way that I could know.
I can know these moments of relief when it is realized that there is no separate self. But these always fade away.

Was there ever a separate self?

It seems that I'm holding this complete end of suffering as a sign that line is crossed.

That is an expectation at play.  You expect eternal bliss happy ever after, when this 'crossing the line' is a new beginning, that's all.

But I also know that it is bullshit. How can something that has been going on for over 40 years disappear so quickly?

Exactly. But then again, what is it at owns the conditioning?

Many teachers really say that it can happen. Maybe it does for some.

You can only experience how it is for you.

Ok, this seems to be just babbling with myself. But I think you said that it's the whole point. Answer your own questions.

Nice.

I feel like Gollum/Smeagol split...
Leave now and never come back!!!!! You know that scene? It's fantastic!

Love it. And just saw hobbit, it's fantastic.

There is no one here to leave and never come back, it was never here to start with. It's imagined.

Hehe...Comment if you want :)
:)

.......................
Hi Ilona, Sorry I haven't been answering. Very busy week in work. At evenings I've been so tired that I did not have energy for anything.

But I think I'm cooked :) Or in other words there is no more I to be cooked. At Monday I was at grocery store holding a bread on my hand.
Thought arose....
"At what point this bread stops being bread and changes it's existence to KJ????" Few seconds later I was one with the whole store... :)"

The feeling of unity fades away but that's how it goes. Nothing left to seek.
Have a nice weekend

Ilona
Wonderful! :) sounds that something has changed. Nothing left to seek is a great confirmation of arrival.

How does if feel when you are among people, is the anxiety still there? Can you write more please, when you can, what is the same and what is different.

Big smile :))
Sending love.

KJ
No. Nothing left to seek means that there never is/was anyone seeking. Who is arriving and to where?? There is no one arriving anywhere, there never was. There is only thought looping by itself and imagining these things. It feels that someone is watching this thinking loop but there isn't anyone. Watcher is also imagined. Experiencer is the experienced. These apparent two create each other. But there never is two.
Ok now the question about anxiety. In thinking, there's images about other people. About many people that I know in many situations. I am always the knower of these images, never "inside" them.  There is a feeling of these people being superior and better. Meaning that there is for example image of them watching me blushing  and being awkward and judging me because of that They are always normal and confident and I am this fearful poor bastard who looks like is losing his mind in any second. And they are watching this very closely. They never say anything to my face but their judgment can be seen in their eyes and behavior. Often my girlfriend is there also and is feeling embarrassed because of my condition. There is huge guilt because I ruin her life like this.
Above thinking pattern IS my so called ego.

Images of these other people that create their opposite, and that is this poor "me" who is nothing like them, but should be. And wants so desperately be normal like they are. The social fear in everyday life happens because of this thinking pattern. This still happens but doesn't have so much power anymore. Sometimes when there is clear seeing and feeling of not-twoness, then the anxiety doesn't arise.

But I hesitate to answer what is the same and what is different, because there is fear that by defining some kind of condition, is then fixating to that. And when it naturally changes, then suffering arises. So I will not give any fixed statements.

Ilona
Hi KJ. Very nice to hear that seeking is ending.

Now let's look at images. Imagine this me in a circle of all these people, that you normally chat with in your head. Let that image stay here for a bit and examine it. What is it made of? What is the worst that can happen to this freshly created image? Does it need to be protected?

Look in the image and at KJ inside it. What can happen to KJ, me, that would be the worst? Now imagine that happening. Then see: Is the image reality? What is happening right now?  What sensations arise in the body?

Just really investigate, how images in the mind are not what is actually happening.

Write what you notice.

When you describe something that is happening right now, this is a point of view, it's never solid. It is always changing. So can you describe what has changed since we started the conversation. Just what feels honest and right. Not asking for more.

Much love.

KJ
Hi Ilona C :)
I'm just checking in. I've been doing your practice and will write later more about that.
Maybe weekend I have more time.

Things are going relatively well...

Ilona
Write more soon KJ!
Much love to you.

KJ
That is so true. Image doesn't need protection. But when there's interaction with people in everyday life, it is not image in the mind that is interacting. It is flesh and blood. And sometimes that bag of flesh and blood is mistaken as separate entity and compared to other imagined separate entities But this is a good practice what you suggested. And I must say that these thought scenarios that I wrote you about in last email don't come so often any more  Usually when I know that I have to go somewhere where is interacting with "others" then this imagining starts.

Recently I've been experiencing this kind of repulsion towards these things (maybe that is too strong word but you get the picture :)
I mean that thought about watching some nonduality video or reading a book is really sickening. This means that also writing to you is really difficult.
I don't know why this is happening but thinking gave two possibilities.

1. Mind is trying to stay in control and is trashing this "seeking enlightenment" as nonsense crap that is going nowhere.

2. Seeking is coming to an end and this is natural stage at this point.

I am also noticing that there is not so much of thinking about this stuff any more  It was for years non-stop thought stream with not much room for anything else.

Also there is more of intense happy emotions and this is nice of course. This is usually like for example when hearing a favourite song, (even in head) The emotion is boosted like 500% and often is difficult not to weep. This is of course really embarrassing because I'm a strong man that should not weep like sissy girls :) hehehe...

The general feeling is that condition is melting away more and more. And this has been more obvious since we started this conversation. Sometimes this is difficult to see because this is happening kind of slowly and only when looking back it is realized that life is much easier now.

Thank you Ilona :)

Ilona
Hi KJ,
Thank you very much for writing to me. As I see some change is here. Need to look for answers in what others say has dropped, that is so nice to hear. Yeah, the shift is subtle, but implications are huge. And you are right saying that only when looked back that difference can be seen.. This resonates here too.

Would you say, you are ready to answer the final questions? Once you answer them and it's all clear I can invite you to join in the LU community :)

KJ
Hi Ilona,

Yes. The seeking is 95% gone. Some days I find it entertaining to read few pages of some spiritual book or maybe watch a video interview of someone, but mostly there's still the repulsion. I just can't hear about it any more you know. If anyone talks about the ocean and the wave I want to scream. Hehehe. I guess this is the famous "leaving the raft behind" point. But yes, I am ready for your final questions. It may take a while before you get answers because of this phase, but I try to answer ASAP.

Thank you so much! This has been painful and entertaining :)

By the way. Are you going to science and nonduality conference in Holland ?

Ilona
Sweet! Here they are :)
No, I'm not going there, are you?

KJ
Hi Ilona,
In this email I will answer to questions 1 & 2

1) Is there a separate 'me' 'I' 'self' , at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

No, there isn't. I self or me appears only in language. In thinking and in speech. Some use this word in pointing to some kind of inside-the-body-entity and others directly to body. Often these go hand in hand. Obviously the process we call body exists, but it is not separate from anything else.

2) in the experience, is there an experiencer? Is it body that experiences or is the body the experienced?

If I have to choose from these two options I would say that number 2 (body is experienced) is closer to truth. But it is not experienced "by anything" In this case various sensations and perceptions are experienced and labeled "body".
Other answers coming later. And yes. I am going to that conference ;-)

Ilona
Cool, thanks for answers. :)

Nice that you are going to the conference!

KJ
Hello,
Before we get to my answer I have to report something. During these past couple of weeks the fear hasn't been very much around any more  From somewhere I've got the courage not to escape it so quickly and when there was accepting of it, it started to diminish. There seems to be allowance of that more and more and it is not so much of a problem any more. Thank you...so much... :)
Ok...and now to answer number 3.
.....................
3) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works.

Illusion of separate self starts early on when language is learned (maybe around age 1-2). Apparent objects are labeled and all of these imagined objects are assumed having separate existence. Bodies and also movement or behaviour of these bodies are labeled. Some behaviour is labeled bad and other good. So things like "KJ is a good boy because he ate all his vegetables" is learned. Comparing the "me-object" to others begins. Psychological self, the ego, is created with this labeling and comparison. Of course all of this is happening automatically and there isn't anyone doing it.
Answers 4,5,6 &7 coming later :)

Ilona
That is great to hear that fear is melting away.. Big hug.

Thank you for answer to number 3.
"Psychological self, the ego, is created with this labeling and comparison. "
So true. And it's so innocent.

Sending love.

KJ
Hello Ilona. Here's rest of my answers...

4) How does it feel to see this?

For me the seeing has been going on for many years and is best described as process, and not any particular event. Anyway there has been these many aha-moments when something is understood or seen.
When it was understood that separate self is an illusion, the anxiety that I had for decades started melting. It was slow process (and is still going on) It can be very subtle but only when looking back you realize the huge change.

But surprisingly when I saw that there is no separation it felt very familiar and ordinary.  No incredible fireworks or anything like that.
Sometimes there was quiet peace and joy and sometimes this seeing happened when I was very agitated.

5 ) How would you describe it to somebody who has never heard about this illusion but is curious about it?

This is hard question and I would say that depends very much what kind of person I'm talking to. If I  would explain this to hardcore seeker then it would be very different than if I would explain it to someone who is not very familiar with the subject. Maybe first I would ask if they can see any border between them and rest of existence.


6) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look? Can you describe the moment when seeing happened?

Maybe it was the realization that there isn't anyone that can be pushed over. The moment was very much like when you understand a joke and it makes you laugh.

7)  Anything to add?

For you Ilona I want to say thank you from the bottom of my heart. Words can't express the gratitude I am feeling and I wish I could be there so I could give you a big hug. Maybe someday who knows :)
Thank you for your patience and love. Life is doing incredible work as you.

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PS: If you want to publish what we've been writing I would appreciate if you use letters KJ instead of name.

This request is not coming any more from fear ;-)

Ilona
Thank you KJ for beautiful answers and yes, I can see a big change in you too. :)
I will put up the blogpost and let you know if my other friends guides have any questions, if none will invite you to join LU groups. There are many friends to meet and share your journey.

It has been my pleasure to assist you.

Much love.