Liberation Unleashed!

Dear Friends,

I have some very exciting news.

As of today we have a great new Website and Forum. Have a look at new tabs at the top as well as links on the right, enter, explore, engage.

On Liberation Unleashed site you will find the gateway to an online network of volunteers, all working to liberate real people, in real life. We do this in the spirit of openness, and for the sake of compassion, love, and the benefit of all.  

All are welcome to join us, all are welcome to contribute - all are welcome to be free. This is our new place to hang out, place to bring friends and family. Please help to spread the message. Next time you hear somebody complaining about life, send them here. We are here to help. And if you want to help us with this, join our team on Facebook.

Big thanks to everyone involved in creating this and making this happen.

Honesty Is One Rare Quality

Honesty is not main quality of humans, lying is.

Lie as in saying- oh, don't take this illusion from him, it makes him feel happier, more peaceful, let him believe in god, it soothes him.
No one wants to break illusion for anyone else. People rather support the lie then confront it in themselves and others and say what feels true. You can see that every day. Like an old tune...

-How is my tattoo? Do you like it?
-Yeah, verry nice. (No one tells truth about shit tattoo, nobody wants to hurt feelings, so people walk around with embarrassing markings and think it's great. I see that everyday.)

-Do you like how I sing?
-Very good, you are so talented, should go on x factor. ( that is a show of human delusion.)

- You are very talented, very beautiful, so cool. ( everyone love being praised, but is it always true? )


Beliefs are ideas that slipped in and attached themselves to the 'me' thought. "I believe" is a bond that holds that idea close. It's also a trap. The trap that holds one locked in illusion.  The key is honesty. Brutal honesty, desire to see what is, not what feels good.


Where do we get these ideas from? How come we, humans follow this unspoken rule-" leave my illusion alone. I like it, I don't want to brake it. It's painful."

It's painful to live a lie. However comfortable you will make it for yourself, it's still a discomfort deep inside that you are trying to cover. Putting more comfort will work for a while. No matter what you do, discomfort is coming back.

I see that people are trying to get away from reality, like if is something undesirable and at the same time they want to feel at home. How can you be at home if you are trying to run away?

Stay. Put yourself down for inspection. It's not gonna be another place. It's here now and it's now.

This is not illusion, this is.

Illusion is that there is a 'you' in this picture. You, that this life is happening to. It's just a story. But what is more precious than a story? who wants to let go of the story of 'me', instead, it feels much better to keep holding on story "I am perfect".

Every story is special. It wants to be heard. It wants to get expressed and shared. The characters are so awesome. My story is so beautiful, I suffer so much, I deserve a better life because I have been a victim, I am the one. I am the universe. I am energy. I am space.... I am special.....

Honesty cuts trough illusion. It's like a sword that cuts through wool and fluff and ice fog. It clears doubts, it opens doors to hidden beliefs, it crashes through walls of feeling stuck. So sharpen the honesty inside and start using it. Next time you get into situation where lie seems a usual tune, stop right there and see how it works. Are you doing a favour by supporting the lies or keep adding to confusion?

Honesty is something that has tremendous power to transform. Let it open, let it rip and find what is true, what is real.

Living a make believe fantasy life may be fun. If you go deep into to the delusion you will feel good, but missing the point. It's time to end that nonsense by being honest, first and most importantly with yourself.

Emptiness Is, There is no You, as in Zero.

Ilona

Hi Garsius Tyla.

Elena asked me to carry on with you. I read your conversation and I see that you are right there. Now it's just a matter of seeing the obvious.

How are things looking today?

Garsius Tyla        

Hey

Today is a lazy day. I'm doing nothing and there is many ideas around - I should do this, do that, just not to be still, just not to be... Most of those ideas are seen and witnessed. Some missed. Anyway this day is beautiful.

As I see now, there is a shift, where I from "doer" became a "doer and witness of doing". That shift happens very often, sometimes few times per minute. There is a big need to dig more into spiritual things like to read Elena blog, or watch one of  Cesar satsangs. Holding of myself from this as Elena suggested.

Anyway, as I'm writing those "I", "me" etc. there is understanding that here is no "I", just thoughts arising. Problem is - that understanding is intellectual, - like one more additional thought about "no me".

I see. Ok, if you get it intellectually, great. Let's get you to really seeing this. 

Where do thoughts come from?

 From empty area in the middle of my chest.

Can you control them?

Nope.

Do you know what the next thought is gonna be?

Sometimes. There is some kind of knowing, what thought will come soon in those circumstances around. Hard to describe. No sense in that.

What influences thoughts?

Thought come, when there is time and place for it to come. It's like when same things happen, same suitable thought arise. And if not to be conscious of that, it may happen again and again.

Can a thought be stopped in the middle?

Yes, seems so. If to become conscious of that thought, it stops in the middle. But anyway I know what that second part would be.

Have a look at thought itself and write what you see.

Thought arise from empty space, generate one, or another feeling in the body and disappear. Sometimes I can be so still to watch and fully realise that. Thought is not me. Seems like "I" should be that one, who watch thought.

Ok, let's look closer. Notice that thoughts are just labels and mind is a labelling machine. Sensation arise- thought follows, sound is heard, label follows, look around the room, notice things and how mind labels them automatically. 

Yes. That can be seen easy. Not for all objects that happens, but for many. For example i look at picture with sunflower on it: thought arises: "sunflower". Actually it is a picture not a flower, isn't it?

Next look at labels themselves.

Some words point to real things.

Some point to symbols and imaginary stuff. 

Yes. And that cannot be controlled - happens automatically. If trying to force looking without labelling - even then its replacing label thought with one dead empty thought, or something like that.

Look at word table and see the table in front, you can touch it, it's real.

Take word university. Is there a university in reality? There are buildings, people, desks, computers, books, but no such thing as university. So it's a label that we use so we can communicate about it but there is no such thing.

Examine the label I. What does it point to? Anything real?


 It points to complex of a body, though and feeling. Is it real. I struggle here.

How about Santa? 


There is no Santa, only idea about him.

How about self?

Nope there is no self. Only idea that this body and thought complex is me.

Cool, let's look at that thought I together.

I points to thoughts about 'me' but there is no me in there check it- is there a 'me' in the body, thoughts and feelings other that thought about 'me'?
 

there is no "me" inside except that thought about "me". Then "me" wants to hang on that observer, who observes that "I" thought and all other stuff inside and outside.

Word body points to body,

Thought points to thought,

Feeling- to feeling. Real stuff.

I points to thoughts about 'me' but there is no me in there check it- is there a 'me' in the body, thoughts and feelings other that thought about 'me'?

What breathes? Is it you breathing or body itself?

Is there a breather?

Is there a walker or walking is happening?

Is there a digester? Or digestion is happening?

Is there a feeler?

A thinker?

A witnesser?

A drinker?

An eater?

That happen itself, I just can be, or not to be aware of it. Who is aware then? Yeah, I can see, that awareness happens by itself too ... Who is aware of awareness then?? Damn, that is a confuse...

See where I'm going? 
 

I is just a label that is used for communication so we can understand language. But I is just a label and not doer.

                            

Awareness just is. Does it need an I to be aware 

No, no need for an "I" to be aware. 

Do you have a pet? Look at animal, see, it is aware of environment. But is there an I that is aware? 


How about a fly? A bird? Is there a manager in there that is aware or awareness is aware of itself by itself?  
 
Animal eyes are empty. There is no "I".

Observer? There is observing happening, observed, observer and observation being one- process. Is there a separate being that is observing?

Check that.

Look at how everything is happening by itself. Thought comes up, fingers type, words appear on the screen.

Is there an observer outside this action happening?

 What is being noticed? Is there a noticer?

That emptiness is aware of thoughts. Thoughts arises in that emptiness and ends there. That means I'm emptiness?

Seems like that observer, that awareness is localised in the body somehow. All is observed from the body point.

What is being noticed? Is there a noticer?

emptiness is a noticer

               

 <<That emptiness is aware of thoughts. Thoughts arises in that emptiness and ends there. That means I'm emptiness?>>>

No that does not mean that you are emptiness.

It means that emptiness is, but there is no you at all. As in zero.

Is this true?

I don't know.

No. Honestly i know: there is no me.

Still this feeling of "I" is here. Yes, huge label of "me".

Ghrrr, I want to get rid of that labeling...

                               

Labelling is happening and there is no one here to get rid of it. It's happening and it will be as it always was.

It's not the labelling that drops and not the feeling of beingness, but belief that there is a you to which all this is happening. 

Life is.

You isn't.

Do the maths.

There is a feeling of apathy here. It's like "yeah, yeah, that is true, but - whatever". Sometime moments of strange happiness come, then again the same.

               

Good good, it's all happening. There is no you to see but seeing is happening.  Is it true?

               

Yes, it's true - there is no me seeing, just a feeling that it is "I" who sees, seeing happening itself and object.

Feeling that it I that sees- look there.

There is feeling of seeing + labelling. =  I see.

Look at that feeling again.

Seeing is happening....

 .......................................................

How is everything looking today?

Peaceful, quiet and no one care even about those nice things. Today there is no apathy. Today is ... nothing.

How does it feel to be liberated?

:) Like a beginning, or something like that. There is a strong need to show that to others also. There is silent gratitude with no target for it. And mind comes like that: "oh I should be very happy" and disappears. And there is love - silent warmth to all: you, Elena, table, rain ...

               

Awesome!

Thank you.  Much appreciation here.

..............................................

There are some questions left that we need to go through just to clarify, but I see you you made it :))

Answer when ready

1) Is there a you, at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?

Nope, there is no me at all.

2) Explain in detail what the self is and how it works.

  I don't know how it works. Somehow "I" is connected to every thought that come. That is how "I am that, I am this, I feel this, I don't feel that" is here. Somehow there is a believe about that - that you are this every statement "I am...". Like you are inside thought. You are content of that thought and acting with no questioning. If question arises, it became an "I" immediately. So that nonsense of self goes on forever.

3) How does it feel to be liberated?

  It's just to perceive all happening, to look at "I" thought not being touched by it. Actually you are not touched by anything. There is no you. Nothing. Everything. But not "I". Even "I" is in that everything.

4) how would you describe it to somebody who has never heard about no you?

Spontaneously.

There is no you. Look and see, that there is body, thoughts, feelings etc. same as other things around in the world. Perceiving of those things happens, but there is no perceiver. "I" thought is everywhere, but it is not you. Try and find that out yourself. Anything you can identify yourself with while trying, will be false. You can't be that thing you looking at. Look and take of yourself layer after layer of that false "I". Till nothing of "you" left. 

Brilliant!

Last bit:

1. Is there any doubt at all?

Nope there is no doubt. "I" can return, but there is always clear it is not me. 

2. Can you tell what pushed you over? What was most instrumental, what made you actually look. Can you look back and see if you can pinpoint that shift?

Can not say. Maybe that will come later. Elena and You just chopped, chopped and chopped. And somehow, at some point some resistance fall apart and nothing left... Hah, now tears come. Much Love here.

After this post of Elena

"You just keep talking. Stop and look. Write only when you have something worth to say."

Next morning I wrote to her

"What a joyful day :) Last summer day, peace within. Thoughts just apper and go, people around comes and goes, everything comes and goes. Even looking "inside" just comes and goes :) Where is my "I"? Today Im looking to the eyes of other people and dont feel that separatness was before: "I" thought comes, "I" go, same as all other around."

That morning when I opened my eyes there was full clarity. Later I sliped and again did not understand what and how. (there was understanding but also a thought that I don’t understand anything. ) Later Elena was still working with me and then you took over, helped to stabilise it all. 

After this post :

"No that does not mean that you are emptiness. 

It means that emptiness is, but there is no you at all. As in zero. 

Is this true? "

There was nothing left to identify with, not even with emptiness. After this apathy started, like “ oh well, it does not matter” and later something gave up.

I don’t know to whom to give my scalp, to the first one or to the last. Perhaps to you, as fter last cited post there was nowhere to retreat :) seeing and admitting happened. 

   3.Is it ok to put our conversation in my blog as it may help others and what name could I use? 

 

Of course. if that will be helpfull for others to get off that nonsense. Name it "Garsius Tyla". With that pseudo Im in FB. 

Who Else Is Ready To Pop?

Meanwhile on Ruthless Truth arena.... 

Ilona is 315

Ilona 
Who else is ready to pop?   
If you had enough, come in here.

OH!

Hi 315

The thought/feeling is - "Ready to pop!"

Ilona

Oh!, great to have you here. So where this thought/ feeling is at?
Describe what is I for you, what is self and how it all works. No need for life story, but mention what is relevant.
Or just simply pop!

OH!

Hi 315

Great to 'Be-Here.' All there is is One Pop,Popping!

This thought/feeling is 'Being/Life' presently expressing as That-a thought/feeling.

Well,This Life isn't actually expressing as anything,it Simply Is as It Is-
Whatever the apparent appearance.

Whatever 'This' is,it Is.

There isn't any one or thing that experiences a thought/feeling,all there is is this
Experience- There isn't any-one or thing having this experience.

What is 'I' ?
There is no actual 'I' existing as a separate entity.
'I' is a thought/feeling,an experience,but there isn't an experiencer-
Only Experience.

So,as there is no 'I' there cannot be a 'self'.

In order to keep on shining,the sun does not need to have the idea "I Am".
It shines perfectly without that idea.
There isn't any 'thing' that needs to work,All/This is as it Is,Simply perfect.

The Only Reality is Experience,Experience for and by no one.

Experience Without An Experiencer.

No 'thing' behind Experience.Only Experience Exists!

Ilona

Sounds that you are seeing it.
Now look at the body and everything around. Does it exist? Does a forest exist if you are not there to experiance it?
Just examine the difference between what is real and what is imagined. Without word experience ;)

OH!

Looking exists/ Seeing exists.

There are no 'actual things' that can be looked at or seen.

There isn't a 'someone' who looks/sees.

There isn't a 'me/I' that looks/sees.

If there is Looking/Seeing then 'that' is what Is.

If there is the appearance of an 'I' standing in a forest,then That
is the appearance,it appears that there is a 'someone' standing in
a forest,'apparently' seeing.

If this imaginary 'I' is not standing in the forest,then for that 'I' a
forest will not be 'seen'.

Reality is This that Is,whatever that is.

Ilona

Thanks for answer.

How about there are actual things and there is forest, only there is no you.
Tell me please, what is real? By real I mean that which is not affected by belief and does not dissapear as one stops believing in it. Look around, notice that there is objective reality here now.

Look at your hand. Is it real?
How about table, chair, monitor, are these objects in real world or in imagination, what do you see?

OH!

This that Is is Reality.

Seeing,forest,hand,table,chair and monitor are real.
But,only real in the sense that All that is is Presence,
Here,Now.

What is not real is a 'you',as a separate entity.

Seeing happens,but not for or by anyone.

There aren't any objects existing as actual separate 'things'.
All is This that IS,without a border,one seamless reality-
displaying as 'many',so to speak.

Draw a circle on a piece of paper,now erase the drawn line,
where has the circle gone.There never was a circle,the drawn
line was the mind trying to create an identity-an illusion-giving
itself a border where there isn't one.There was only ever the
Single piece of paper,A borderless piece.

"Objective reality!" Objectified by who/what?

Ilona

What is Oh! ?

OH!

Oh! is all there Is.

Ilona

You are joking, right?
What happens to planet earth and all life on it when Oh! dies?

OH!

Is it a joke or not?

Can Oh! actually die?

Appearances come and go.

Reality always Is.

Oh! is not a person who was born,will live and then die.
Oh! is an/the appearance of This.

Ilona

ok, oh!, let's look at reality from different angle. You say: Oh! is all there Is.

This is labelling of all that is/ life/ reality with label 'Oh!'
looks like you are identified with life, and although you speak words that point to truth, you do not see it.
why are you here?
what are you looking for by engaging in this duel?
what do you expect the liberation to be like? are you already liberated?
answer me this: are you life itself, or just a simple human animal lost in a head?
:)

OH!

"Ok, oh!, let's look at reality from different angle."

Yes,'good' idea!

Here,there is absolutely no identification with Oh!
Oh! is a projection of the mind,now seen through
by no one,seen for what it is-by no one- a projection,
a false belief.

There aren't any words that point to truth,All Is Truth.

There isn't 'anyone' here that sees Truth,there is only
Seeing."Seeing without a cause" - CH.

Why am 'I' here on this forum engaging in this dialogue/duel?
Who knows! -Who really cares-That's what's happening right
Here,right Now.

'I' may expect liberation to be like this or like that.
Reality doesn't give a damn about liberation.
All is Liberated,there isn't anywhere to go or anything to get.

"Answer me this: are you life itself."

What else is there -Only Life existing/expressing as it Is.
Whatever the appearance - 'someone' apparently liberated,
'someone' apparently not. The Presence of Life Is All there Is.

Ilona

Ok, let's make it simple.

There is no you at all in reality, as in zero.
Is it true?

Notice what comes up, thoughts, feelings?
Write down all that is noticed.

OH!

Noticing a computer screen,a hand typing out some words,the taste
and smell of coffee,the sounds out on the street.

All there is is this Noticing.

Noticing the sense of an 'I' a 'self',seeing that this sense is nothing
other than the appearance of a string of thoughts/feelings.

The sense of a 'self' is contained in the thoughts/feelings.

Self/I amounts to no more than a thoughts/feelings.

The Noticing is alive/present,now.

Ilona

315 wrote:There is no you at all in reality, as in zero.
Is it true?

care to answer this?

Oh! wrote:Noticing the sense of an 'I' a 'self',seeing that this sense is nothing
other than the appearance of a string of thoughts/feelings.

if self exist, then yes, there is a sense of self. So if it doesn't then self can not be sensed, right?
imagine you have a tail, can you feel it? imagine it as real as your hand. now look, do you have a tail? (hope not, hehe) so can you really sense it? you can imagine the sense, but is it real tail in there?
so if you think that you are sensing self, isn't that justin your imagination? unquestioned assumption? check again!

Oh! wrote:The sense of a 'self' is contained in the thoughts/feelings.

close your eyes for a minute, feel what is there, see if you can find that feeling of aliveness, of being, "am". is it personal? notice what mind does at the same time: it labels experience and here you have a thought coming- 'it's sense of me/self'...

Oh! wrote:Self/I amounts to no more than a thoughts/feelings.

Does sense I/ self amounts to anything?
where do thoughts come from?
what influences them?
notice that there are thoughts that point to real things: table, chair, monitor, hand, coffee...
notice that there are thoughs that point to imaginary things, let's say unicorn, batman, santa, self...
can you see the difference in how some labels are pointing to nothing real?
What does label 'I' point to?

answer these questions as precise as you can.

OH!

O.k,now that the pretence at 'seeing' This has been exposed,
lets get this over with. :)

"There is no you at all in reality, as in zero.
Is it true?"-

Yes,this is true.No 'me/I/self can be found.There is only the looking
for the self.

"If you think that you are sensing self, isn't that just in your imagination?
Unquestioned assumption? Check again!"-

There is only the looking/checking.

"See if you can find that feeling of aliveness, of being,"am". Is it personal?"-

'I' can't find an actual 'aliveness' or an 'Am',that is personal to 'me'.
There is present only the looking for the feeling of aliveness.

"Does the sense I/self amount to anything?" -
No,there is only the presence of the sense I/Self.

"Where do thoughts come from?"-

They just appear,as if from Nowhere!

"What influences them?-

Whatever the attention is drawn to.

"Notice that there are thoughts that point to real things: table, chair, monitor, hand, coffee...
Notice that there are thoughts that point to imaginary things, let's say unicorn, batman, Santa, self...
Can you see the difference in how some labels are pointing to nothing real?" -

Attention can be drawn to real objects:Table,chair...
Attention can be drawn to imagination:I,you,dreams,fantasies,fear...

"What does the label 'I' point to? -

Nothing.

There is the seeing of a computer screen,the feel of a hand,a cup,the smell of coffee,
the taste of coffee,the sounds and so on.

The Actual presence of right Now as it IS,and all without an actual 'I/me experiencing
any of it.

:)

Experience Without An Experiencer.

Ilona

Cool. So how does it feel to be free?

OH!

Thank 'you' 315,thank you so much!

"Cool. So how does it feel to be free?" -

Ha! Ha! Ha!

There is an appreciation of the words "Nothing has changed...Everything has changed."

Everything is exactly the same except that there is now an absence of 'me'-
Well, there never was a 'me',that's what's seen.Really,really obvious!

That's all it is,there never was an actual 'me' experiencing,or to whom anything was
happening.ONLY HAPPENING.Presence without 'me'.The sense of there ever having
been a 'me' was always an imagining taken to be an actual truth.

Wow! One big sigh of relief.

Life just getting on,happening as it does.Freedom was/is always the case.

Free,light,open...simply present...now not just empty words,but Fact.

No loud laughter,just a smile and a gentle Ah!

Popped!

3/Free cheers for 315

:)

Ilona

Easy peasy pop!

Awesome!

Let's chat a bit tomorrow, for now let it settle in.
Much love and appreciation here too. I'm delighted for you Oh!
Big smile happening here too.

..........Next day........

How is everything looking today? Is there any doubt at all?

Could you write a bit on what happened, how it happened, what is the self and how it works, what do you see when you look at humans, what would you say to somebody who is still looking and whatever else you want to share.
Please give us a rant about it :)
Much love!

OH!

Still smiling :)

If there where any doubt present,it would not belong to "me".

A rant from the 'other side' - so to speak.-

It just so happened that 'Once upon a time' "I" thought there was an "I" that
could go out into the 'world' and find the truth of "Who Am I?"

An "I" cannot be 'found' - Who would find it -it does not exist.

There is only the existence of Life happening as it Is.If there is the presence
of seeking for an "I" then that Is Life as it happens.

The world is real,the feeling/sense of "I" is real,but in reality there is no "I".
"I" is a story in imagination,a projection of the mind,an attachment to a phantom.

Life always exists perfectly well...ever present...freedom...in the absence of
an imagined personal "I".

Ah! Yes,the sun is always shining,even 'behind' the appearance of grey skies.
(There is no something behind this,there is Only This Life).

Experience is just here - Is Here.

Now what? As it happens,it's always Now.

What happened? One moment "I" am looking for answers,in the 'next' moment
no "I".Just the 'solid' actual existence of Life as it Is.Pure Experience in all it's
'apparent' variety.One Experiencing,but without an experiencer.

There was no cause to this 'seeing',it's just what happened-the current state of play.

Cause and effect seems to be an interpretation by the 'mind'.As if it where to say-
"Things can't just happen,there Has to be a cause that produces an effect."
This is what the 'mind' cannot grasp -The Actual Existence of Experience without
an experiencer.

The 'mind' tries to create a place/space for itself,this it calls "I/Me/Self".
Then there is a belief by the mind in this "I/Me/Self".
This belief can persist until the death of that particular body,but,it could
also happen that that belief can be seen through.There isn't a "Me/You/Self".

"What do you see when you look at humans?"-
'Everyone' is where they are!

"What would you say to somebody who is still looking?"-
Sounds paradoxical,but,"Take a proper look,is there really an actual YOU,or is there just
the looking for an imaginary You,is there really 'anyone' looking,or just Looking."

Only Love

Mirage Of A Mistaken Self

Joe

Hello Ilona, love your blog, read the shit out of it. I stumbled across this two part interview which you may find very interesting. Great research. Part one is the set up and part 2 is the really good stuff.

I put them in order. First:
http://www.buddhistgeeks.com/2011/07/bg-224-the-study-of-non-symbolic-consciousness/

and the second

http://www.buddhistgeeks.com/2011/07/bg-225-the-end-of-self-referencing/

enjoy

Ilona

Thank you, really interesting. So much to read!

How about you, have you seen the no- self thingy yet?

Joe

You can listen to the audio there. As far as the no self-thing. I'm fading. There hasn't been a huge shift. On the flip side beliefs are crumbling everyday. I'm writing like crazy, trying to get to the root.

Ilona

If you need some help, let me know. It's just a matter of precise questions.
And writing is best way to get it sorted, yes

Joe

I more than willing to give it a try, but first let me ask you, was the shift subtle for you?

Ilona

Shift was subtle but certain. Then it took a few days to sink in.
How about you? Has it happened yet?

Joe

Then I would say no, but I’ve been having days that I , hard to explain but if pressed my self as self fades and great sense of well being arises but the self of self is still there ever so slightly in the background

Sense of self i meant to say

So it's still there. Hanging on.

Ilona

Ok, you are very close!
Love your art, you are very talented.
When you paint, is there a sense of self in there?

Joe

Funny you ask. It usual runs the extremes, Yes very strongly, or not at all.

Frustrating,, thanks for liking the art by the way 

Ilona

Ok, have a look at it from this way: there is a sense if being, aliveness, existing, that sense is never going to disappear, it's constant till body is alive. Same human, same animals.

This sense is labelled by the mind as 'sense of self' but it's not self that is felt, just aliveness. It's impersonal.

Mind is a labelling machine and pits labels on every experience.
Self can not be felt as it does not exists. It's just language got in a way of clear seeing and mind identified with the imaginary self.

So when you close your eyes, identify the feeling of being and see if it's personal. Is there a 'me' in there?

Joe

At this moment It does feel personal, I can't deny that.

Ilona

It is mind that labels it 'personal'.

Have a look at the thoughts. Can you control them? Where do they come from? Can you know what next thought going to be? Can you stop a thought in the middle?
What do you see there?

Joe

This is a sticking point with me, thoughts just seem to happen by their own but it appears I can change what the thought can be such as interject the stream and think (happy or sad thoughts) as a generalization.

As far as stop it in the middle, not sure about that, can soften my focus on the thought as to, or it seems to go into the background.

Ilona

Yes, Joe, thoughts happen on their own. 'I can change what the thought can be...' it's also just a thought appearing effortlessly.

Notice that thoughts are coming and passing like river.
See if you can control thoughts or it just appears so.

Joe

I'm with you there.

Ilona

Cool. Now we will examine the labelling process that is going on by itself, without a manager. It's brains reaction to environment and experience.

So look now- body breathes. Does it need a breather? Are you a breather? Or all is just happening?

Joe

I can see they are passing like a river, oh shit, are you saying, that my thinking I can control my thoughts is just another thought passing through?

Just happening?

Ilona

Yes to above. I is just a thought and thought does not think. Once it's seen it's over.
But don't worry if it's not clear just yet, we will take small steps and it will become obvious.

Are you sure? Just answer with whole honesty.

Joe

That is is clear but i'm having a reaction to it

Ilona

What is the reaction?

Joe

Heart is racing and bit of a body shakes and my thoughts have sped up

Like it's , like it's trying to be fuzzy

Ilona

Of course. It's ok, let it just be there. It's normal. Accept the feeling.

Now if you look at this:
There is no separate self at all in real life, as in zero.

What feeling comes inside?

Joe

My eyes teared up, trying to well..

Joy and fear

Ilona

Ok. Bring the fear closer. Examine the fear as a mechanism if protection. See how well it works, how amazing it is. Honour it. Can you do that? Just let the fear be there, look at it, be ok with it and then look behind. Is there anything that needs to be protected? If so what?

Joe

Hold on

Something just happened

All the tension in my body is gone

Ilona

Keep going. What is behind the fear, can you see now?

Joe

Wait a minute, there seem to be nothing and, I can't stop looking around my apartment.

Everything looks a bit new

Ilona

Hahaha! Nothing! Yes!!!

Joe

I can't find any fear

Damn the body feels so relaxed

Ilona

Ok, cool. So look again, is there a self to be found in your apartment? Is it real?

Joe

There some objects I see I associated with a story of me

Ilona

Story is just that- story. It all is playing out by itself. no actor.

Joe

Amazing

Ilona

Is there a you in any shape or form in reality? Was there ever?

Joe

No just thoughts masquerading as me

Ilona

Hahaha! Yes.
What is real?

What is real?

Joe

Don't know what real means anymore other than pointing to a pointer and so on.

Ilona

Look around apartment. And notice the words, labels that point to real things: table, chair, monitor, body, hand, foot,
All this exists, things do not dissapear if you stop believing in them. That is real.
World is.
Self isn't.
Life is.
You isn't.
Can you see?

Does word I point to anything real?

Joe

No, not at all.

Ilona

Here we go.
How does it feel to be free?

Joe

Fucking unreal! HAHHAH

Open, spacious

Funny really

I see all this things I put a little me in. A self that does not exist

Ilona

Lol

Joe

I have to run, but will message you tomorrow to check if I don't exist

Thank you so much for the walk

Ilona

You are welcome! Got to sleep now, it's 3:40, hihi
Speak to you tomorrow.
Much love!

 ............................

Ilona

Hey Joe, how is life today?

Joe

Different, seem to be just doing life, currently I'm at a drawing session with about 20 people, funny I see all these thoughts go through, clambering to be feed. Perplexed, lot more space, feel structures of beliefs. More unravelling. Happy to just be. Curious about the unfolding, pangs of old thoughts run through. No one there to get caught.

Ilona

Great to hear that it all seems different. Same, but different.

Can you answer me these questions precisely as possible:
1) Is there a you, at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?

2) Explain in detail what the self is and how it works.

3) How does it feel to be liberated?

Just so i see if you are really through.

Joe

Frustrated as fuck but here we go.

Don't know how to answer this right now. When i look i can't find one, but there is a feeling there is, irritation.

At odds with myself. Feeling self diluted, like what the fuck. I see these thoughts and get brought down to thinking, oh hey Here is Joe. Some many thoughts about what this would feel and be like, Sorry for the wobbly shit but there it is. I was at a different place last night and this morning. I see thoughts wanting to tell myself that I am free, but again. All honesty here, I'm not.

Ilona

It's ok, it's quite expected, happens pretty much a lot. But that what was seen can not be unseen. Instead the usual identification with the i there is a hole, so mind goes, wtf. It will take some time to settle and all will become clear.
The frustrations is normal. Look at it, it is only trying to protect something. Let it be there and just observe how it works for a bit. Then, look behind. Is there anything that needs to be protected? Is there anything at all?
What it would be like? Exactly that. It's different for everyone, but everyone agrees, no special super powers. Nothing changes on the outside.

Joe

Ok, does feel like my mind is trying to rationalize this. What's happening, then I look again, can't find a me. Thoughts of "can it really, i mean really be this simple." No bliss shooting out my ass.

I have to sit with this.

Ilona

Sit with it, yes, it's so simple yes, can't be simpler really. No bliss, no angels singing no light flashing in the eyes. This is the part where it's easy to get stuck, mind needs to process what happened.

........................

Ilona

Joe, how is it going?

Joe

Just being with the unravelling. Not either good or bad.

Ilona

Has there been a definite shift?

Joe

Not lasting no.

Ilona

Can you believe that there is a you again?

Joe

Seems so

I have been drifting in and out for the last 3 months

Ilona

Ok, read my blog, start here page, as i just updated it and explained what to expect after. Then get back to me. Cool?

Joe

I will read it at lunch time, will do


 ......................................

Joe

Hello, I read it again. It's like I’m awaking in the dream state not from it. That's the best way to describe it. Don't want to Dilute myself and say I have.

Ilona

Describe it. Is there a you in there? In any shape or form?
What is Joe?

Joe

A jumble of thoughts clambering to grab my attention, sensations.

That's all i see

Ilona

So you see thoughts trying to glue themselves to thinker?
Is there a thinker behind them thoughts?

Joe

I don't know, hard to say seems I can swing with saying the thinker is just more thoughts or I just don't know.

Ilona

I don't know is not an answer, look inspect, then say what you see, don't guess.
Thoughts about thinker exist, but thinker itself doesn't.
Is it true?

Joe

I'd say it's just my brian doing it's brian thing, when I really look I don't see a thinker, thinking just happens. So no it's doesn't exist.

Ilona

Yes, so all this thoughts that run wildly are just passing through. It's processing. Brain is re-establishing what is going on. And it gets a bit panicky.
You know how after a good night out you get a hangover. Same here- a massive one.
Or like when stop smoking there are cravings. Same here- thoughts are looking for the I to attach, but you have seen that I can not think itself. So don't fight the process, relax into it. Just look at thoughts as they pass by and notice if it gets personal. That's where belief is stuck. Just examine the belief and release the feeling that is glued to.
Makes sense?

Joe

Yes.

How long did it take for you?

Ilona

Hm, everyone is different. I done a lot before popping,
By burning beliefs away. Then it was east, just relaxed into experience more and more. Naturally.

It's still going, but differently now. The initial clear up was about a month I'd say.

You know, it has been well programmed into the software that I is me.

Joe

Cool, hey did you ever listen or read those interviews I sent you?

Ilona

Read a little, I'm so busy with lots of stuff that haven't have time to get into it properly. As I understand the researcher is interested in finding people who can be tested. Interesting.

Ilona

Hey Joe, how are things? How is Joe?

Joe

Good, just relaxing into life despite what may seem chaotic.

Ilona

Oh, so you felt the shift?

Joe

I have felt a shift, but I will say I keep feeling other ones as well. I'm very neutral and watch a stronger and lesser sense of self wash over throughout the day. Layers, emotional, mental, sensational. I'm content

Ilona

Aha! Good stuff.
So is there any doubt left that all is just happening by itself?

Joe

Funny, I have felt this in the past, but it's happening more and more that everything is happening by it self. I won't say it's 24/7 but it is increasing and widening. I'm fortunate in the fact my life situation is pretty crazy as in, highly stressful and could be depressing, so the letting go and being with what is more expansive. Quite honestly your question seems odd. Only because it seems so obvious now.

Ilona

That's great to hear Joe. Yes relaxation in situations that previously would be labelled as stressful is obvious. Life gets the feel of effortlessness.

Can you look now and tell me is there a you at all in any shape or form?
What is self and how does it work? Has there ever been a separate self?

Thank you.
:))

Joe

The self is concept created by the mind to protect itself which mistakes itself for a separate self.

Ilona

Nice!
And the first question?

Joe

No there is not, I see mirage of a mistaken self.

Ilona

Awesome!
I see that you are through!
What was that last push that made 'you disappear'?

Joe

Just crept in over time.

Ilona

Sweet!
Can I put our chat on my blog? It may help someone else. If so, what name shall I use? 

Joe

Sure, just my first name Joe

Ilona

Thank you
Let me know if you want to join a group of friends like you who recently seen through illusion. It's great if support needed and everyone is free going trough the same in their own ways.
Much love!

Joe

Thanks!

Ilona 
Love your art!