Wednesday, 22 July 2015

Noirioni: Slowly, But Surely, Everything Seem to Fall into Place.


Noirioni:
Hi Ilona,

I have got a strong pull towards asking you to be my guide.
Will you help me?

I´m now 60 years old and I have been in the Zen/Advita ”business” for over 20 years!

About a year ago I was in bed and imagined myself to be a wave on the ocean.
And at the same time the feeling of being a separate person disappeared!
Suddenly I realized that it had always been like this, there was never a separate person.
Everything happened all by itself, ”I” had no control because ”I” didn´t exist.
This feeling lasted a few minutes and then everything returned to normal.
Thoughts kept coming up and feelings came and went.
Just like they had always done.

Now, when I try to ignore all that I have learnt, the following appears:

-There is awareness of experience.

-There seems to be someone (”I"?) or something experiencing sounds, sights, emotions...

-There seems to be some connection between experiencing and the body (when I
close my eyes visuals disappear, when I close my ears sounds disappear…)
Experience seems to happen through the body?

-What I call ”me” is the one that is experiencing everything.

-Feelings and thoughts seem to be private (I can´t know what you are thinking, feeling).

-What am I seeing in the mirror?

All this on one hand and the knowing of there being no-one on the other hand
leads to a great confusion, as you can imagine.

I feel that I really need some clarity and guidance in these matters.

Please help!
Noirioni, from Sweden

Ilona:
Hi Noirioni,

Thank you for email. It's a pleasure to meet you. My answers will be below your questions.

Now, when I try to ignore all that I have learnt, the following appears:
-There is awareness of experience.

This statement suggests that there is awareness and experience as two separate objects, but look, awareness = experience. Two different words, same stuff. Look, there is the view in front, it's not like there is something that witnesses it from the back, outside of it. The view = awareness of the view = awareness.
Language makes up separation where there is none.

-There seems to be someone (”I"?) or something experiencing sounds, sights, emotions...

The key word here is SEEMS. Yes, it seems, as thoughts say, there must be one. But there is nothing there. Look, what do you find, is there a hearer of sound ? what is the i that hears sounds? the I that breathes, sits, talks? is there one?

-There seems to be some connection between experiencing and the body (when I
close my eyes visuals disappear, when I close my ears sounds disappear…)


A question to ask here is this:
Is it body that experiences or body is the experienced? Is there a gap between you and bodily sensations?

Experience seems to happen through the body?

Or perhaps AS? As sensations that are labeled "body", "arm" , "hair" etc..

-What I call ”me” is the one that is experiencing everything.

Right. What is the i and what is the me and what is the difference?
Have a look, is there a gap, between experienced and experiencer? Where is the line, that separates me from out there?
Is there such sensation that you would point to and say- that's separateness.

We can look at the other questions later. Write what comes up when you work with what i gave you.
It's really very simple and you saw that already. It's just about noticing what is happening here now.
kind regards,

Noirioni:
Hi again Ilona and thank you so much for your answers.

It really shook me up (in a good way)!
Now it’s 2:44 in the morning and I’m feeling wide awake!
So my answers are below.

Language makes up separation where there is none.

Wow, you´re sooo right. Fooled by words again! No two objects, of course.
Something really happened on a feeling level when I read this answer.
A merging of two concepts into one experience.
Separation gone.
So simple.
Will it stay?

The key word here is SEEMS.
Yes, it seems, as thoughts say, there must be one.

Is there one?

No, when looked upon this way there is really no-one here, doing anything.
I realize that the hearer of sounds is just a made-up character.
Just sound happening.
Just breathing.
Sitting.
Everything happens by itself.
It can almost be a little scary and certainly very unfamiliar.
No-one here?

Is it body that experiences or body is the experienced?
Is there a gap between you and bodily sensations?


No there is no gap between me and body sensations.
It´s all one happening.
But this feels like such a great shift, compared to my previous believes,
that I can´t really seem to grasp it right away.
I can feel the smell of it though...

Experience seems to happen through the body?
or perhaps AS?
As sensations that are labeled "body", "arm" , "hair" etc..


This is extremely interesting.
Can we talk more about this?
I feel I need many practical examples and to take very small baby-steps
before this can be accepted completely.
”Show me, I’m from Missouri!”

No difference between me and I.
I realize that they are just a made-up concepts.
And there cannot be a gap between experienced and experiencer, can there?
They must be one.
There cannot be any experience without experiencer, right?

You have shone a light into the dark caves where the I was living.
And shown that there is no-one living there!
Now I feel a big hole, emptiness where I thought that the I resided.
Strange feeling, but good!
It´s a lot lighter without it!
Hope it doesn’t come back?
I feel very new, sensitive and vulnerable right now.
Much like a new born baby...

Lots of love from Noirioni.

Noirioni:
Hi again Ilona,

Can I check some insights with you, to see if I´m on the right path?
Would it be true to state:

We think that we are a separate person that can control life.
But there is no ”you”. ”You” do not exist.
There is only Life pretending to be a separate person.
Life is person-ing.
Life is happening as us.

We think that we see a separate world with our eyes.
But “you” can’t see. “You” do not exist. There is no seer.
There is seeing. Life sees itself.

We think that we hear a separate world with our ears.
But “you” can’t hear. There is no “you”. There is no hearer.
Hearing happens. Life is hear-ing itself.

We think that we think thoughts.
But “you” can’t think. “You” do not exist. There is no thinker.
”You” are just a thought. There is thinking. Life thinks.

We believe we are the body.
But ”you” are not the body. There is no ”you”. There is a body.
Life is ”body-ing”. Bodying happens.

We believe that we are breathing.
But ”you” are not breathing. ”You” do not exist. There is no breather.
Breathing happens. Life is breath-ing.

But still, Life seems to need ”my” eyes to see with and ”my” ears to hear with…?

The body exists. The eyes exist. The tree, that is seen with these eyes, exist.
But a separate seer does not exist. Only seeing.
Is that a correct conclusion?

All the best,
Noirioni

Ilona:
Hi Noirioni.

Thank you for emails. Some great looking and observations~!

You ask, Would it be true to state, I say no.
Nothing that you arrive at as truth is truth.
No concept is true.

That's the fun thing- whatever we describe as an arrival point is only holding on to an idea.
Life is not experiencing life. Life is not an object. It's a concept. Same like any other word. It's a thought, idea, not reality. And yes, we can describe what we see and believe in our story, but if you don't see story as a story, you may be trapped into believing that this is how things really are.

"The body exists. The eyes exist. The tree, that is seen with these eyes, exist.
But a separate seer does not exist. Only seeing. "


The question of existence is another territory, it's about how things exists. There is a whole emptiness path, awareness path etc that work with these questions.

Let me show you something. There is an exercise in this post. Do it here or on paper and see how language creates subject, where is none.
http://markedeternal.blogspot.co.uk/2012/05/labels.html

And don't worry for now about what exists. Just see how describing affects what is being experienced. Write to me what you notice.
sending love.


Noironi:
Yes, I see what you mean.
That's a really good exercise.
It's clear that we habitually put in an I
where it's clearly not.
It's just an assumption, lying there like a big, fat, smiling cat!
Everything is much lighter and easier
without it.
It's just so unnecessary, it doesn't DO
anything!

I´m listening to my wife talking.
I’m looking at the trees outside.
I´m feeling full from lunch.
I´m feeling thirsty.
I´m typing on my laptop.
I´m thinking about what to watch tonight.
I´m sitting down.
My wife’s son is talking to me.
My dog is looking at me.
I´m feeling tired in my body.
I watch the clouds.
_______________________________________

Looking at clouds.
Listening to a conversation.
Breathing.
Dog wants to go out.
Playing guitar.
Typing on the laptop.
Feeling warm.
Remembering Zahn from LA.
Eating a chewing gum.

Thanks!

Ilona:

Wonderful! Yes, like a big fat smiling cat, haha

How does it feel to see this?
Is there any doubt?
Sending love

Noironi:

I'm afraid so.
It feels like living in two different worlds at the same time.
On a good day there is the knowledge (and sometimes even the feeling) of
there being no one there.
But other times it's not so clear and the character of "Noirioni" is alive and well and
searching continues. But at the same time there is very little,
if any, conflicts with "others" or "the world".
There is a lot of harmony and resting in
what is.

Can you relate to that?
Where am I?
And is there anything you can do to
push "me" further towards the edge?
Love, Noirioni


Ilona:
What is that the character is looking for? What does he expect to find?
How and what should be different?

With whole honesty, bring up all expectations. What do you want to happen, hope for? Let's see what shows up.
Sending love

Noironi:
Hi again and thanks for not letting me off the hook too easily!

I suppose that one part is that the searching for truth has gone on for so long that it has become a habit.

And old habits die hard.
The mind refuses to see that it can’t ”understand”.
So even if I know the truth of there being no separate person, it doesn’t seem to help to destroy the illusion at a deeper level.

The illusion of me being in a body is just too strong!

Another part is the deep experience/feeling I had the other year of there being
no one, no person. Just seeing, feeling, touching, thinking all by itself
without anyone doing it. That was great!

It was shattering and I guess there is some longing to get back to that state.

But the exercise you gave me to study ”I´m walking” compared
to ”walking” was really good and it comes up all the time in different situations.

So maybe s-l-o-w-l-y…
Thanks, Noirioni


Ilona:
And old habits die hard.
Not true. Old habits can drop easily, when they become conscious, when they no longer make sense.

The mind refuses to see that it can’t ”understand”.
So even if I know the truth of there being no separate person, it doesn't seem to help to destroy the illusion at a deeper level.

Right. It does not help to destroy illusion. But what if nothing needs to be destroyed?
What in your opinion needs to be destroyed?
Look this way: you are in a desert, you see an oasis. You know it's mirage. You run to it, and nothing is there, just more sand. You look further and see another oasis. Another mirage, you run again and see again, that nothing is there. Next time you see an oasis.. Do you need to destroy that mirage? Or you just know not to chase after an illusion?

The story continues, the character continues, nothing changes. Only that person is seen as fiction, not actuality.

The illusion of me being in a body is just too strong!

Ok, where is this me in the body now?
Find it.
What is there?
Which sensation is you?

Another part is the deep experience/feeling I had the other year of there being
no one, no person. Just seeing, feeling, touching, thinking all by itself
without anyone doing it. That was great! It was shattering and I guess there is some longing to get back to that state.


Yes, that's kinda common, trying to get to a state from before. But there is only here now. And the peace is underneath all thinking. It's a matter of simply stopping and noticing.
All states come and go. Nothing stays permanently. And freedom is not from unwanted states. Freedom is to experience all fully, no matter what state is present. No state is final.

But the exercise you gave me to study ”I´m walking” compared
to ”walking” was really good and it comes up all the time in different situations.

So maybe s-l-o-w-l-y…

You are in the process already... Notice, all is simply happening...

With whole honesty, bring up all expectations. What do you want to happen, hope for? Let's see what shows up. This is still an invitation to explore.

Sending love.

Noirioni:
I was writing:
I don't want to feel like a separate person.
I want to see through the illusion of separation.
I want to experience reality as it is.
I want peace of mind.
And there was suddenly an insight that:
all expectations are just thoughts from the ego point of view!
So I leaned back and relaxed.

Birdsong.


Ilona:
The story continues, the character continues, nothing changes. Only that person is seen as fiction, not actuality.
Mmm, I guess you´re right. There is no way to destroy that which does not exist.
There are moments of clarity when this can be seen.

Which sensation is you?

It seems more and more that ALL sensations and experiences is me...

Another part is the deep experience/feeling I had the other year of there being
no one, no person. Just seeing, feeling, touching, thinking all by itself
without anyone doing it. That was great!

Freedom is to experience all fully, no matter what state is present. No state is final.
Yeah, here and now there are really no problems (unless you think about it). I´m stopping and noticing more and more. Or it is happening more and more.
On a good day I can see (or it can be seen) that it´s all unfolding exactly the way
it should and that everything is happening by itself.

With whole honesty, bring up all expectations. What do you want to happen, hope for? Let's see what shows up.
It feels like what is still left is a desire for clarity in these matters…
I want to be as clear as you are!
Love and best wishes.


Ilona:
Hi Noirioni.

Can you look back and see if there is anything different in normal everyday life since we started this conversation. What hasn't changed?

The clarity.. The more lies are seen through, the more clarity there is. There are lots of beliefs to examine, it takes time for them all to come up, one by one.
Let's examine, what is not clear yet and work with that.
Sending love


Noirioni: 
Hi Ilona,

Thanks for getting back to me.

What is appearing more and more, since we started talking, is that thoughts come up insisting:
”There is no separate person”, ”You do not exist” and ”There is no Noirioni”.

There is really no fear in this, just an: Aha, yes that’s true.

Sometimes there’s a feeling that I’m not the body (which I have believed to be for so long)
but just what is experiencing. Being the world and everything!

What hasn´t changed is the experience of what is happening in the moment.
That is always the same.

And sometimes "I just go there”, or ”I’m just there” and everything’s fine. No problems. No desires. Just what’s happening.

But I feel quite unsure that I’m there all the time.

Sometimes I get lost in thoughts.

I think you’re right when you say that more clarity comes from seeing through all the lies we’ve been fed.
One by one.

Ilona:
Nice..

"But I feel quite unsure that I’m there all the time."


Where there? There is only here. Here now. This moment. No other place or time to be. How can you be not here, ever?

Sometimes I get lost in thoughts.
Well, should this not be happening? It's part of experience and that too is included. Getting lost in thoughts and feeling is natural. No need to fight it, just notice, that thoughts are not actuality. Story is not reality. It's a story about it. The feelings, the sense sensations in the moment are actuality.

Yes, more work to be done, more processing.. The thing is, all that is not serving starts to fall off. There is no end to falling, no landing on a ground.
Sending love.


Noirioni: 
Now wait a minute!

If you´re saying that everything is OK that happens in this moment, the even feeling like a separate person would be all right, would´t it?
Anything that happened would be OK?
That would make life a lot easier, don´t you think?
How could you miss that?

Warm today!
Love, Noirioni

Ilona:
:)

Warm today!
Lovely here as well.

Noirioni: 
I´ve been reading through your posts on ”Marked, Eternal”
and listening to the audiobook by Jed McKenna and now I feel a bit like this:

It seems like all old beliefs are crumbling.

And what is left?

There are no separate parts - no borders. Check.
There is no ”I” - the ”I” is only a thought. Check.
So there is no control - everything is happening by itself. Check.
Thoughts appear from nowhere - and passes by. Check.
We believe ”I think” instead of ”thinking happens”. Check.
Feelings appear from nowhere - and passes by. Check.
Some labels point to reality - some to unreality. Check.
”I am” always here, now. Check.
There is a body - but it´s not ”mine”. Check.

There is just the Mona Lisa´s smile…


Ilona:
Awesome!
the structure is on the melt down... great!

Is there anything else that wants to be examined? Is there any doubt?
much love.


Noirioni: 
Hi Ilona,

It feels very fresh and sensitive right now as the moldering away has started.

But at the same time very familiar and very light, like a burden has been lifted from the shoulders.
So I´m sure something will come up that needs clarification.
I hope I can contact you then?

But you sure started off the process, putting the dynamite in place
and firing away.

Actually your exercise in writing: ”I´m walking” and ”Walking”was really the final blow to make the whole ”I”-thought start to crumble!

Slowly, but surely, everything seem to fall into place.

Thank you so much for beginning to demolishing me
and all the best!

You are a wrecking ball!
Love, Noirioni
















Ilona:
Delightful!

I like to see dynamite explosions :) It gives a sense of another wall going down.

Would you say with a big fat YES, it's clear, that I, the separate self, is an illusion.
If so, are you ready for what we call 'final questions'?
Much love

Noirioni:
Hi,
The foundations of a separate self has surely begun it´s final deconstruction.

It´s being seen through more and more every day.

And although it may take some time to tear down the whole structure there is no turning back once the ground floor is gone.
But it all happens exactly as it should.
Every thought, every move, every feeling is like a gift.
The Great Mystery Energy expressing itself as this.
There seems to be less and less knowing, not more and more.
All that this world is made up of is being seen as lies
(or as some would put it: ”God in confusion”

This night there was a feeling how everything is made of the same ”stuff".

How thoughts, feelings, time and everything is connected, interdependent
and how there are no borders between anything.

It´s all created at the same time.

And only this exists!
Strange, but beautiful!
So, if you want, we can try the questions and see what happens.
Love and gratitude...

Ilona:Strange and beautiful indeed...
Here are the questions. No rush. Write what feels true. If I see some sticky points, we can look at that.
.......
Much love.


Noirioni:
1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?
Was there ever?


After studying and practicing Zen and Advita for about 20 years I had an experience last year that really shook the foundations of the illusory self, when I suddenly felt that the personal "self-feeling" was gone. It only lasted for a few seconds, maybe minutes, but during that time there was a clear sense of there being no ”me” and that there never had been.
Everything just went on as before. Thoughts coming up, feelings, sensations,
but suddenly the feeling of being a person was gone.
It was a great relief, because I knew right away what it was after all my reading about it.
I don´t know what happened next, but I suspect that the old feeling of being a person returned after some time...?
Now I feel and think less and less about whether there is a person, separate from everything else or not.

2a) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is:
The illusion seem to consist of thoughts and feelings that tell us that we are a separate entity,
cut off and living unconnected to the world and everything around us.

b) when it starts:

We are taught that this is who we are, and this body is yours, not mine by our parents and society when we grow up.
And I suppose it´s a good thing because if we didn´t believe in being a separate person we could easily become psychotic.

c) and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.
The seeing of the illusory nature of a separate self is deepening and working in more and more situations.
As soon as someone opens their mouth I can tell right away how the thought/feeling of being a separate self is controlling and affecting them and their behavior.
And then I think: ”No worries, mon. That´s OK, that is how the Whole is expressing itself right now.
It´s all good. It´s all perfect."
What I experience is a body moving around in the world and ”private" thoughts coming into existence.
And there is still use of the word ”I” to describe what happens in this body and mind.
I still say: ”I feel tired”, ”I´m hungry”, ”I see the dog”, ”I´m going into town tomorrow" and so on
(which of course is quite confusing)!
But there is less belief in the thoughts of a separate ”me” anymore.
Often there is a seeing through the ”me”-illusion.
Everything just seems to be experiences. Always changing.

3a) How does it feel to see this?
It feels a lot lighter, like a weight has been lifted. It´s easier to even breathe! Clarity.
There is still an interest in Advita matters but it seems more like a deepening of understanding
than a desperate longing for the "truth".

b) What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.
Contacting you and following your advice made everything more practical and less theoretical.
I could see that what I had already realized in theory also held water in practical situations.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

All the things you said made sense and especially the exercise with writing down:
”I´m walking” compared to ”Walking” was an eyeopener to see that the separate me really didn´t do anything.
Everything just happened by itself.

5a) Can you talk about decision, intention, free will, choice and control?
Here I feel more sure and can clearly see that thoughts, that come up from nowhere, have total control.
Everything just happens. There is no free will, as there is no one to have it. All choices are made by the whole.
And I have complete trust that the whole is benign and that it always makes the right choices.
Why should it make a wrong choice? The way I see it, Life makes no mistakes.
And everything that happens is there to help you see who/what you are.
Life is helping itself to wake up?

b) What makes things happen?
I have no idea. Just that the whole Universe is behind anything that happens.

c) How does it work? Give examples from experience.
Suddenly a thought arises: ”I´d like to have some tea”. Then I go and make the tea and drink it.
Seldom is there any hesitance in what to do. There is full trust in the process that governs all that happens.
And very few discussions with it.
I feel that there is a ”clear seeing”. For example when my wife gets into a "pain attack”,
I can more and more (on a good day) see what is happening and not react on an ego level,
but just let her be in that space until it passes. This is a really good exercise!

6) Anything to add?

No, I think that covers most of it from this point of view.
Just that I´m very grateful for your input and clear seeing.
Please let me know of things that are still fuzzy for me so we can do some more cleaning.
Nothing wrong with a little brain washing, eh?
Love, Noirioni


Ilona:
Thank you very much for answering so fully and clearly.
It's been a pleasure to walk with you.
This makes me see that shift happened. It's subtle. But as time goes, you will see, it changes everything.

3a) How does it feel to see this?
It feels a lot lighter, like a weight has been lifted. It´s easier to even breathe! Clarity.
There is still an interest in Advita matters but it seems more like a deepening of understanding
than a desperate longing for the "truth".


The illusion seem to consist of thoughts and feelings that tell us that we are a separate entity,
cut off and living unconnected to the world and everything around us.


Nicely said. Not sure why you use word we. Are there multiple separate entities? I'm just poking now, to see if there is anything in this area that may want to be explored.
Much love your way.


Noirioni:
Mmm, good question!

A slip of the tongue?
The slip of a thought?

I like your poking, I don´t want to get off the hook with some half-assed understanding.
I´m in it to the end of the line...

Seeing that there is no separate person has a lot of consequences that have to be considered?
The thing is that there seems to be two different worlds.

In one there are thoughts, words, labels.
It describes the dualistic world and cannot describe anything else.
This is where there are problems and wanting to understand everything.
A longing for the total clarity that you express.

This is the many still unanswered questions
and thoughts like these come up from nowhere:
- is there a world without anyone seeing it?
- why is there pain when ”my” or ”this" foot is hurt
and no pain when ”you" hurt ”your" foot?
- why does it seem that awareness follows "this body"?

The other world is without words. It´s just what is happening right now.
And here there are no problems.

The experience of this now:
- tapping the keyboard.
- seeing the trees outside the window.
- amused at thoughts that pass by.
- drinking tea with lemon.

Now that I write it down I realize that the first world, of thoughts,
is actually contained in the second world of experiences.

This is the real world.

And seeing this could/should bring about total clarity, but it
just brings about total presence (which isn´t too bad, of course).

But, I would´t be able to answer questions, like you do.
What´s up?
Love, Noirioni


Noirioni:
Hello, anybody home…? Guess not.


Ilona:
- is there a world without anyone seeing it?
Is anyone seeing it? The world is seen. That's obvious. It's here.
Seer?
Where is it?

- why is there pain when ”my” or ”this" foot is hurt
Why ? 

Just because.
Why question is story weaver. Any answer is as good as any. More accurate or not.
The answer is not in mind story. The question is irrelevant. Curious thing to explore, but empty.

and no pain when ”you" hurt ”your" foot?
- why does it seem that awareness follows "this body"?


Is this body arising in awareness or awareness arising in the body? Or does it matter?

Object and awareness is same thing. It's not two different somethings.
Look, sound is heard, is awareness something that is outside, separate, different? Does labelling create that what we call sound?

The other world is without words. It´s just what is happening right now.
And here there are no problems.

Sweeeeet!

But, I would´t be able to answer questions, like you do.
What´s up?

I did not answer your questions, but gave you some variations of questions. You can answer them now. :)

PS. Sorry for disappearing, I have been distracted away.. Happens.

Noirioni:
Hi!

Today there was a realisation that
since there is no separate self,
there really is nothing to do.

No use asking questions.
No use in believing thoughts.
They just pass.
Not even concentrating on THIS,
because who could do that?
There is just THIS.
Love, Noirioni

PS: been looking at the LU pointers
in FaceBook, they're really great!

Thanks!!! ️


Ilona:

Lovely.
But does action require a doer?
There is nothing to do regarding seeking for something other than what is.
Still action arises, things get done.
What drives action?
Sending love


Noironi:
Everything seems to happen by itself.
There is no entity there doing decisions or actions.
What more can be said?
The sun is rising…or rather, the earth is turning…

Ilona:
Good morning :)
Lovely answer. Thank you.
Welcome home..

What happens next is this, I usually put these conversations in my blog and other guides have a read to see if they might have any questions for you. If none, I invite you to join LU groups for continuous support and friendships.
This is a beginning of exploration, there will be lots of stuff coming up to be seen, sometimes it's good to have a place to talk about all this.

Would it be ok to put our conversation on my blog? I can use your first name, or initial or whatever name you prefer.
Much love your way!


Noirioni:
Thanks for good guiding!

You can use the name: Noirioni if you want to put our conversation on your blog.
Waiting for more questions from other guides.

Love to join the LU groups for further exploration.

Would be nice to connect to guides in Sweden and Portugal
(that´s where winter is to be spent) ️
Do you know any?

I went up and down and then disappeared in the ocean.

Ilona:
Thank you so much.

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