Wednesday, 19 June 2013

Shanti: Funny things is..no self 'over here' no self 'over there'.


Shanti 
Jun 5

Hello,

I am in Switzerland.. and am at the Gate.. would love some midwifery. Do you do skype sessions?

Ilona
Jun 5

Hi Shanti,
Thanks for message. I don't do Skype sessions, but everybody keeps asking, so maybe I will, but at the moment I prefer email or forum. Whichever works for you.
Kind regards.

Shanti 
Jun 5

I have a difficult time with words plus am lazy.. and lets give email a try.   I will begin tomorrow.  Is this ok for you?  Is there anything I need to know?

Thank you

Shanti 
Jun 6

Good morning.  It simply begins.

There is much that has been undone.. or that unravelled.. the concept of no choice.. of the I.. yet there is anger.. mostly directed at my four children.. it is intense.. and it hurts at times.. it is so much different than before.. but there is still this idea that they are 'mine'.. I am responsible to feed them.. take care of them.. raise them.. there is still a sense of separateness.. and not.. confused mostly.. and some fear.

Thank you

Ilona
Jun 7

Hi Shanti.
Of course a mother will take care of children, there is no doubt about strong connection and love.
That is how life is- in nature too, mother cares about children. It does not mean though, that she owns them.  Does your mother own you?

The anger is a response to triggers.  If you hurt your leg and somebody kicks it- naturally it will hurt and there will be a response, reaction, perhaps anger. It hurts, because it's wounded. So there is also a reaction when emotional wounds are touched or pressed on. Until they heal and no longer triggers reaction.

This process is about seeing what is really going on in your experience. It does not fix anything, nor change how things are. Only lets you see for yourself, by yourself how it all works.

If you are looking to fix something or get rid of anger, this process is not about that.  If you want the truth, no matter what and are ready to question your most precious beliefs, then we can work together.

On the scale from 1-10, how ready are you?
What is it that you are looking for?

Sending love.

Shanti 
Jun 7

Yes...it more feels like the mother thing is too much.. so much responsibility.. freedom is hard to find.. kind of reaction.

I am ready. 10.  I am done seeking.. looking has begun.  I doesn't think and I think that I am either at the gate or over it.. I see that there is no I.. there is however still a sense of self.. mother for example.. or person who needs/wants to make money to pay bills.

When I first approached you.. I think I was looking for some kind of answer.. it is not like this anymore.  It feels more like a settling in.. and I want to make sure.. that sense of self lingers.

Gratitude for you.

Ilona 
Jun 7

Hi Shanti. Thank you for email, I see you are right and ready. So you say that I does not think, can it cross the gate? What is the I that you are referring to?

What are the expectations at this point? Does the sense of aliveness, being got to cease? Are you waiting for some state or big experience? It may or may not happen and it isn't a necessary part of process. The shift may be so subtle, that it may be hard to notice.

What is that sees that there is no I?

Write soon.

Shanti
Jun 7

What is it that sees there is no I?  phaw.. I have no idea.. eyes.. looking?  It has been subtle.. prior to the shift.. there was a lot of anger and resistance and tantrum throwing.. A LOT.. and then.. noticed.. hmm.. I doesn't think.. drink.. eat.. sleep.. I is a though just like all the others.. there was laughter.. and holy crap.. is this it.  Cool.

And then.. the children and contraction and the idea that something has to stay.. like the laughter has to be permanent to something that could care less...the sense that I HAS to be here even if I see that it isn't.

In my immediate experience.. there is noone here and yet a sense that I will find her.. if I just wait long enough.

Shanti
Jun 7

have you ever gone looking for your keys or something.. sure you knew where you left it.. after awhile of looking.. you experience frustration.. irritation maybe.. damn.. I know they are here somewhere.. and then you find them in your pocket and you laugh out loud.. yep.. that simple... yet.. not totally.. it seems like layers are peeling away.. effortlessly.. and it SHOULD be hard and deep and whiz bang boom.


Ilona
Jun 7

Sweet! It should be hard, haha, but yes, so simple.  It's like looking for home while being at home. No step journey. Finding home is just a noticing that you have never left home. :)

About the children, is it possible to stop caring about them? Are they separate from you? Is there an I in each of them?

Much love.

Shanti 
Jun 8

No not possible to stop caring about them.  There is no I in any of them.  Are they separate from me.. hmmmm.. seems like it.. at the moment in my current experience.. they don't even exist.. so this IS strange.. there is a sense that they are somehow separate...but not.

loving you.

Ilona
Jun 9

Separation is only a thought.
Take a look with senses, each one individually.

Is there anything separate in hearing?
Is there a gap between hearer and the sound?
Is there anything separate in the view, when you look with eyes closed and open?
How about touch, feel the touch and see if there is a gap between experienced and experiencer?

Look at nature, spend some time watching the movement of totality, is there anything incomplete or independent of everything else?

Write to me soon.

Much love.

Shanti 
Jun 9

Hearing happens.  Viewing happens.  No separation between hearer/hearing or Viewing/ Viewer or feeler/felt.. no gap between experiencer/experienced.

In nature there appear to be separate 'things' birds IN the sky, clouds IN the sky, wind IN the trees or ON the skin, trees IN the ground and the sky or surrounding landscape.. all of it being experienced TOGETHER.

In my home there are my children.. my husband...they appear to be separate.. but they are NOT separate from experience.. without other words.. they exist because I do.. the experience OF them would not take place without me experiencing them.

There are thoughts that this just doesn't make any sense.. this appearance of separation.. the apparent others.. and some settling of this 'knowing'.  There is less and less the sense of actual separation.. phaw.. so many ideas of what I thought not experiencing separation would be like.. so many fantasies.. falling away... good.

Big love.

Ilona 
Jun 10

"Hearing happens.  Viewing happens.  No separation between hearer/hearing or Viewing/ Viewer or feeler/felt..no gap between experiencer/experienced.

In nature there appear to be separate 'things' birds IN the sky, clouds IN the sky, wind IN the trees or ON the skin, trees IN the ground and the sky or surrounding landscape..all of it being experienced TOGETHER."

It is only language that makes the experienced appear separated. When you see the bird in the sky, there is a movement of shapes and colours, labels come up "bird", "sky", "in"..
Can you experience a bird without sky? Outside of sky (while looking up)
It's just like saying that grass is growing and assuming that there is something called grass that does the growing.  It's one undividable whole, which can only be divided by words, that are believed to be real things, objects.

"In my home there are my children.. my husband...they appear to be separate.. but they are NOT separate from experience.. without other words.. they exist because I do.. the experience OF them would not take place without me experiencing them."

Yes. Good stuff.
Here is an article for you. http://markedeternal.blogspot.co.uk/2012/01/trick-of-language.html

And there is an exercise in this post.  http://markedeternal.blogspot.co.uk/2012/05/labels.html
Do it properly and write to me after, what you noticed, how description of what is happening affect what's happening.

Love back to you.

Shanti
Jun 10

I will write tomorrow.. I think.. sick littles.  Earlier I felt I had a lot to respond.. it went away though.
Thank you

Ilona
Jun 11

Hope you are feeling better.
Sometimes the process can be very intense and body can be going through stress.  Disillusionment can be accompanied by purging- intense burning in the body and flu like symptoms. It's all part of it. It will pass.  Just let it all be ok.

Sending love to you.

Shanti 
Jun 11

Thank you.. good to hear. Physically.. the last 8 months or so have been interesting to say the least. I am a mover.. I train the body a lot.. because I like too.. not to achieve anything.. but it has been hard going these last 8 months.. catching almost all colds and viruses.. not just me.. my whole family...sleep is good.. when I get it(up with sick kids)..and the last two months.. nightmarish dreams.. but not really.. otherwise peaceful sleep.. no spinning.. just sleeping. Your words are like a salve.. letting me know that this experience is just happening.. no one to blame.. no where to look to make it better.. Ironically.. at the moment.. the 'sickness' feels like a relaxation.. with a bit of resistance or better said RESIDUE.. showing up physically.

I would like to share a bit of my process with you.  I am 37.  Two years ago I went to the School with Byron Katie and the veils really began to drop.. prior to that experience.. I didn't know anything about nonduality.. enlightenment.. awakening.. nadda... or that thoughts aren't real.

I did that work for one year.. everyday.. almost all day.  Then, like most things, it dropped away.  Life felt easy, effortless, it was nice.  Then.. well I don't know exactly what happened.. but it felt like I feel out of that experience.. there was a series of events that took me into the deep dark uglies.. real bad.  There was deep depression and sickness.. followed by rage and pissed offedness.. it was intense.. and it is only in the last two weeks that it seems to have subsided.

During the darkness I began to become a facilitator for the Scott Kiloby Inquires.. and I just got more and more pissed off.. I had a feeling I was getting so close to seeing 'the holy grail' whatever the hell that was.. and I just got fuckin pissed and fed up with LOOKING.. looking at words, images, sensations.. and looking for some self.. and not being able to find it.. ever... and thinking the looking was going to kill me.  There is a huge difference between looking and seeing.. this I have experienced.

Then a very dear friend of mine sent me your book.. on whatever day it was that I contacted you.  I had been feeling like I needed support of some kind, someone to help me SEE what I was already seeing and experiencing...honestly.. someone who would validate what I was/am experiencing.. like a home.. until I really could see I am home.  That person...right now.. is YOU.  Deep gratitude.

Language is something I see through quickly at the moment.. and I could fall into a space where communication would get really weird.. but seemed to have overcome that in short order...meaning using I, you, we, us, me is strange but useful.  Verbing is all that is really going on.

Many things you have said I have experienced.. but then not SEEN.. if that makes any kind of sense.  Yesterday.. as I read your book.. reading stopped.. all desire to read such books.. left.  Movement away.  funny.

And just now.. as this email was being written.. there was movement to prepare lunch.. there was noone doing it.. it was just happening.

I have been pointing for others for a long time.. I just didn't know that was what I was doing.. and now.. the happenings.. seem to make some kind of sense.

I was most definitely thought there would be some big boom.. I notice so many misconceptions and misunderstandings...not the least of which being Shanti.. she is the confusion, the compromise, that created to fit in, out of love...yet meaningless.  Applying this to my children has been so intersting.. they too are a story.. without the story they just are.

I have no idea if this is making any sense, thank you for reading so far.

There are silly questions still about time and money.. but they come and they go.. as if I cannot grab onto them at all.. falling away.

Loving you

Shanti  
Jun 12

Seems to be smoothing out.. whatever that means.. strange.. and totally normal some how.. so much stuff falling away.

Thank YOU.. me..I..it..everything..life..happening!

Ilona  
Jun 12

Thank you so much for sharing your story, it's quite something.
I'm so happy to hear that you are relaxing. Yes, the shift is so small, subtle, ordinary and yet all starts to look different. Where you thought that you need to get home, there is noticing, that home is here, now, always.

How are you feeling?
Yes, falling can be intense, just allow all to pass.. Holding on is not advisable. :))

Lots of love.

Shanti  
Jun 13

How am I feeling?...hehee...as if the fan is slowing down...the stirring the spinning of mind.. how to explain.  It is as if something is alive and living.. thoughts cannot be held onto.. no matter what.  Anger happens.. irritation happens.. overwhelm happens.. and yet it doesn't.. it is WILD.  Like the last remnants of firecrackers.. pop.. pop.. fizzle.

Perhaps this is the settling in...the sinking in.. the falling away of stuff.  It feels somehow stable.. constant.. where it used to come and go.. it seems to be constant.. not able to be unseen ;).

Deep..flowing.. intense.. desire.. excitement to SHARE with others.  That is how Shanti expresses.. she is a sharer.. but this.. well this  is different.  This experience is for everyone.. noone is a guru or special.. all the same.. the experience belongs to noone and to everyone.  Hope this makes sense.

Would love to connect with others.. to point wherever possible.

Thank you for ALL that you are.

Shanti 
Jun 13

There is something interesting.. and meaningless.  This way of looking.. I sucked it all in.. or out.. or whatever.. is so darn simple.. it seems like inquiry, religion...confuse the whole thing.. like they are totally unnecessary ..and yet.. suppose they are.. until they are not.  It all drops.. completely.. when seen.

no such thing as self realization.. hehehee.. unless seeing there is no self is it.. no such thing as enlightenment or awakening.. just looking.. pointing.

Weeeeeeeeeeeeee.

Ilona 
Jun 13

Oh, I'm so happy for you! It's really that simple and with seeing seeking drops.  Falling, sinking starts and it has no end. Just different levels of intensity.

I can see that shift has happened. Can I ask you the final questions? If you are ready of course.

Yes, it's amazing to notice, how this little misunderstanding causes so much confusion and suffering. I'm very happy to hear that you have the intention to help and point to others.
It's a great gift to pass on.

Much love to you!

Shanti 
Jun 14

Thank you! I am ready.

I will be off the grid from 5pm tonight until late Sunday.

big hug

Ilona
Jun 14

Sweet! Here they are :)

Shanti
Jun 14

I will write Sunday night or Monday.  Thank you.

Ilona 
Jun 14

Looking forward to reading it.  Have a great weekend,
Love.

Shanti 
Jun 17

Hi honey!  It seems there was some effort to come here.. now.. and write this and isn't that just interesting.. and to whom exactly ;)

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

NO..nonononononooooooo...nope..nadda..and it is..strange..a bit disorienting..but somehow familiar as well.


2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now. 

Shanti began when there was an innocent kind of ownership.  Yes Shanti I will be happened.  It feels like an agreement, whatever that means.  A sweet precious beautiful self..yet completely meaningless.  I don't know who she is but I am in love, no longer able to believe in her I can love her deeply..same as one can love the story of santa and magic and unicorns.  The self is like camaflouge, a way of fitting in, making sense out of nonsense.  The self is a collection of stories, ideas, images, sensations sort of glued together in the attempt to give life meaning.  Funny things is..no self 'over here' no self 'over there'.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

The difference is a calm balance kind of experience, shit still happens just as before but it isn't personal at all.. even when it feels like it or appears to be.. it isn't.  Wobbly on my legs.. a bit disorienting.. and at the same time is seems like.. ya.. well DUH!  And no doubt, it feels more.. for lack of a better word.. real.  And there seems to be a lot of settling going on.. falling away of stuff all on its own.. or as if.. simple inquiry has come to life.. life happening.. life living.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look? 

Wo.. not sure.. soo soo much happened in a matter of a few days.  One was a video of Elena talking to someone and she said the sentence 'Can I think'.. it hit be between the eyes and the falling really began, the next moment I emailed you.  It had already begun.  Then in our emails.. there was a moment where you asked me 'Can you stop caring for your children?' that hit it.  It was one of the last illusions to actually Seeing.. the fear of losing them somehow, once it was realized that I could not do different, fear left and seeing happened.

5) Do you decide, intend, choose, control events in Life? Do you make anything happen? Give examples from your experience.

hahhahaaaaa..this one was a fun one.  It is seems so convincing.. that someone/thing is the master of the universe.. heheheeee.. and NO no choice, no intention, no deciding, no controlling.  Examples, I was eating dinner in a restaurant alone yesterday and I noticed, there was noone doing anything.  Hand cut pizza, raised it to mouth, mouth opens, chewing, tasting, swallowing.. so bizarre.. noone doing it.. noone at all.

I have also noticed that hand will move, sound will sound and then thought will happen taking credit for the movement or sound...labeling it...none of it is true what thoughts say.  Movement, seeing, sound and even thoughts simply happen.. to noone...which is so strange to write :).

6) Anything to add?

Thank you.  I think I could write forever about all the stuff that has happened since seeing.. time has done a funny thing.. as has space.. and interesting noticings when seeing gets bent in a way.. like when there is an argument with one of my children.. they appear very big.. I have to laugh out loud.. it is so strange.. I notice than that the patterns are dropping and this bending is part of that.. when my children are giants or once my husband a midget.. I cannot play along anymore.. it is so silly.  (now this might all sound a bit crazy.. but there you have it.)

I felt wobbly.. but it feels more.. not solid.. no not solid.. but perhaps clearer with each moment.  I am having very strange dreams as well and energy seems to be endless even when tiredness is present.

Thank you for you!  And, How can I help?  And, is there a place to talk about these weird things happening with others?

Loving you

Ilona 

Dear Shanti,

It was delightful to read your answers. I can see that you see :) my heart is full of joy for you.
Yes, there is a lot of settling in, a lot to clear up, a lot to recondition. And that takes time. This falling of old beliefs happens whether you do work on that or just rest in being, the process takes care of itself. Sometimes it is intense, sometimes it's gentle, but there is no landing, only falling deeper and deeper into peace...

Could I put our conversation on my blog? I can use your name, or initial or whatever name you are comfortable with. That way your process can be of help for someone else. It's like a giant wave rolling :)
Once it's on my blog I can ask other guides to see if they have any questions for you and if all is clear, I invite you to the groups. There are many groups at LU and you can too start guiding :)

If you would like to take any personal info out, no problem too.


Much joy and love to you.

Shanti 

Ilona!  Share it.. all of it.. this one always has been an open book...just really noticing there is nothing to hide.. nothing personal.. nothing to be careful about and I appreciate you asking.

I will answer any questions from anyone you would like me too.  I might like to be a part of the groups and a guide.

Thank you for your movement as kindness, much has been seen.

Loving you.

Shanti  

I have really loved our exchange and having you in my heart always.  Thank you.

Ilona

I was walking and thinking of you.. It's so sweet to connect. I too enjoyed our exchange and will put it on the blog today or tomorrow.
It's really my pleasure to meet you and be part of your journey.
<3


*photos used from
 https://www.facebook.com/brookeshadenphotography

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