Monday, 25 February 2013

KJ: The Anxiety that Was Here for Years Started Melting

This was long conversation and it was beautiful to see the change in KJ. There was fear, anxiety and uncertainty, intense looking and laughing out loud. It's my pleasure to share this story of transformation. 


KJ
November

Hi Ilona,

My name is KJ. I am 40 year old man from Finland. Or that is how the story goes :)

I've been following your blog "marked eternal" for some months now. There is something in your communication with people that resonates with me strongly.

I know that you have this liberation unleashed project, and that you have many people "working there", but I would really like to clear some things up with you if that is possible.

So I just write very shortly now and ask if you could help me?

Best wishes,

Ilona
Hi KJ. Yes, I can be here for you. I may not reply everyday, but you keep writing to me daily. It's how mind clarifies thinking.

So what brought you here? What are you looking for? What are you expecting to see?

Bring it all on.


And before answering please read the disclaimer on this page.  It sums a lot what is not going to happen. Just so you know where you are going.
http://www.liberationunleashed.com/
Much love.

KJ
Hi. You asked me to write daily even if you don't answer.
 "What are you expecting to see?" was the question.

 Randall Friend wrote today in his blog:

-------------
"Consciousness IS experience.   As long as Consciousness continues to arise, experience will continue.  Once Consciousness ceases experience will cease.

However existence is not dependent upon experience.  Existence IS THAT which IS -that which IS, right this very moment, that which IS no matter what experience may hold. "

 ---------------

Ok....This is the one thing where I am stuck. I understand that consciousness and experience are the same thing. However he is saying that existence in not dependent upon experience. In other words that existence is not dependent upon consciousness.
I mean how can there be any knowing of existing without consciousness????

 So I guess this means that without body-brain-consciousness, there is no existing...

Ilona
Ok, KJ, let's start again.


What are your expectations?
No quotes, no philosophy, go right down to what YOU feel and expect. What do you want from awakening? How will you recognize it.

Make a list:
1.
2
3....

And sincerely put all down.

Focus is very important in this process.

Cool?

KJ
 My list is short. There's only one thing.
I want to live without fear. All my life I've been afraid and I want that to end. And I don't mean kind of fear if someone pulls gun on my face, but psychological fear and anxiety. I don't need to be ultra-happy all the time. I just want all the suffering that is based on separate self idea to end.

Above is same as awakening to me. I don't care about any words like enlightenment or liberation. End of suffering=liberation.

And I will recognize it when that fear is not arising anymore.

Ok, that's it.

.........................
Hi Ilona,

I don't know if you read my earlier email but I have to report to you. I had realization this morning. I had many before but this one was most powerful. It is little bit covered by now but I learned very important lesson. I realized that there is NO WAY that this type of suffering (that I wrote you about earlier), can hold up when this is fully realized. Why? Because there IS NO ONE HERE! it is nobody's suffering :)
There is something here...but it is not separate someone doing anything.

This "I" is just some kind of thought loop in the brain.
Oh yeah...like if I could make thoughts happen...what a joke. Like I could tell to my brain to move my arms or legs...what a joke!  I laughed when this was realized. Now I know what it means when they say "cosmic joke"..hehhee

I'll get back to you later.

.............................
Ahahaaaa!!!
How funny is that! So much personal story and attachment where really there is no one here! All the seriousness goes through the window!

Ilona
I'm laughing with you my friend.
Here is a little video, that we made at  LU. I was laughing there for the second day, non stop.

 http://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=plcp&v=SDCJdrcqzDM
:)

What was the last bit that had to be seen through? What pushed you over?

Much love.

KJ
Thank you for videos :) Last bit...hmmm....I was taking a bath and the inquiry about doership arose and I just realized that there is no "I" involved in anything. Body moving...thoughts happening...seeing happening...hearing happening...No self doing any of those things.
Maybe the last bit was that there is no separate I doing thinking.
And even if there was separate I, there is no way that separate I could cause itself. It would have to be created by life.
And therefore it too is life. And that is only thing that is happening...LIFE! :)
But I have to say that there has been these realizations before and always somehow the confusion gets back again. So we will see how this goes.

Do you have any advice for that if it happens?

Thank u

Ilona
If confusion comes back, is there someone to own it?

Yes, sometimes one gets sucked back into the story, but what has been seen can never be unseen. And getting sucked in the story is also life happening by itself.

We have Facebook groups where you can meet others and participating in discussions helps to settle in.

How does it feel today? Is anything different?

Much love.

KJ
Thanks Ilona. yes that is so true. There is something different but I will write to you later because we're going to visit my girlfriends grandmother. But I tell you about it when we come back home.

................................
Hi again,

Facebook...I don't know. I've been avoiding that because I'm working with computer and if I start to hang around in facebook then all my time goes with computers. But I will consider this possibility.

You asked if anything is different. Well...everything is the same. No bliss or intense joy. Mind is not silent.

Oneness experience came and went today.
I used to believe that when realization is "complete" then oneness doesn't fade away anymore.
Maybe today I finally realized that this never was about having any kind of experience...

Thank u.

Ilona
Oh yes, realization is not about ever lasting experience or state. It's about seeing that whatever comes up arises and passes on it's own. That there is no doer, no thinker, no experiencer to which life happens.

How are you feeling today?
Is there a certainty or doubt?
Is there anything else that needs to be understood?

Sending love.

KJ
Hello. I'm feeling ok thank you :) Most of the time there's certainty but some doubts are also arising. There is "this isn't the final understanding"-doubt coming up, because all the suffering is not released yet. But it is also seen that there isn't any landing with this. No final arriving.
I guess it takes time for old habits and conditioning of mind to balance.

No questions coming anyway...

Thanks

Ilona
Of course all the conditioning is still here, it did not get set in a day or two, it takes time to see through all that. This is only a first step, far from final understanding. But without this step, no going further.

Yes, it's a beginning of the fall and there is nowhere to land :)

Final understanding is another sweet carrot that drives one insane.

What is there to understand?
What is here to know?

This waking up is about unknowing everything you thought that you know. And seeing every moment with fresh eyes. This is all there is. As in now.

Time needed to rebalance depends on how much clearing needs to be done. It may require an effort to look through conditioning.

This seeing through illusion is not ending all the suffering. It the beginning of releasing of the sufferer.

Tell me, what is it that suffers? How exactly is suffering happening and where does it happen? What has suffering to do with labels of feelings?

Write to me what you find out.

Sending love.

KJ
I think this releasing of suffering began couple of years ago because the anxiety has diminished so much. Last Sunday however there was this moment where "sufferer" completely disappeared and it was seen that it is impossible to suffer when it's not there. Of course it was never there but you know how difficult this is to explain. It was like "it" had no place to hide anymore. All the possibilities where seen through and there was this moment. So mind has made this formula that "final understanding" is when this moment of seeing comes back and stays forever...hehehee ...enlightenment :)
Answers to your questions:
1. What it is that suffers?
This word "what" wants some kind of object, but there aren't any objects so I would have to say that there is movement and motion of sensations. Suffering = resisting this movement.
2. How exactly is suffering happening and where does it happen?
It seems that this movement of suffering is triggered by certain situations that are expected to bring suffering. I mean they are fantasized before. Where it's happening? Do you mean where in body? There are certain sensations in the body. This is really hard to describe. It's terrible heaviness.
3. What has suffering to do with labels of feelings?
Do you mean words like depression or anxiety or sorrow? These labels points to same movement of energy that is labeled "suffering". But I have to say that maybe I do not understand this question =/

...............................
Hello,

I think I'm not very good at writing if you don't reply. But I'm just checking in now :)
I'm experiencing little bit of mood swinging. There's this irritation because this "seeing" is not stabilizing. Maybe it is not stabilizing because mind expects it to stabilize =/
Tired of this seeking business...
I think another dangerous carrot is this "end of seeking carrot". There is no experience of that, so mind doesn't want to rest...

Ilona
Hi KJ,

I was busy, sorry, could not write. But I'm here and this process is yours, so keep writing to me.

Well, seeing is available every moment. It's not that seeing happened, now it's done.

No. Seeing happened, so it can be seen over and over again and over again. You don't look into the past and miss the experience. You look in the now and see now. That seeing, staring at the void is what is happening and that is how conditioning and beliefs are dropped. It does not happen overnight. Checking lasts for months and stabilization also takes time. It's a big tsunami to the system. Expecting the final done is the last carrot. Is there anyone to arrive anywhere? There is only falling. And no where to land.

It may be frustrating at the beginning as it does not meet your expectations. But expectations are grasping to last straw, let them dissolve and see what is. Face the obvious. And trust that whatever life brings you is exactly what you need. There are no mistakes. Just continuous flow. One movement.

Surrender is what is left when resistances drop. And resistances are showing the way. Every should and shouldn't is in the way of clarity.

Should you be happy and blissful all the time now that the first step happened?

Yeah. It's a very common expectation. Guess what, life does not stop here. It carries on. And saying yes to whatever comes is priceless. Curiosity too as well as willingness to accept lessons and knowing that it's only a beginning to life after the invisible line was crossed.

Be kind to the mind.

Much love.

KJ
Hi there,

Thank you for your answer. Was very helpful.

Things has been very clear again today. In my mind's eye there has been this child on a beach building a sand castle. But nothing that is separate from the sand is created. There is no new thing existing. Only sand.
Only one being morphing endlessly.

So at what point did the separate I began? Ridiculous question....

I hope you have good weekend Ilona :)

Ilona
Good question, at what point separate I began? How would you describe it?
Thank you, weekend is great do far. Wish your being fun too.

Much love.

KJ
Well, it never really did began. Only belief in it began. Maybe somewhere around age 1-3 when mind or brain starts learning meaning of words. Words like "I" "me", "boy", "son", "person" and so on are learned. And name "KJ" points to all of these words.

Of course in my case these labels are in finish language. Actually there are no different words in Finnish language for "I" and "me". Only one word "minä".

And all these words points to a body. Sometimes I or me is this body. Like: I am fat or I am ugly. And sometimes these words point to some kind of entity inside the body who owns it. My arm, my leg, my eye. And of course everything that seems to go on inside body. My feelings and thoughts.

Separate self is a mixture of these elements.
And then self judgement begins. I am good boy or I am terrible son, fearful person. Self image is born. But never a real person who is living somewhere inside, doing things, choosing. That is a fantasy.

What you think. Maybe we could talk little bit about awareness?
I can't deny this experience of living and awareness of it. So it seems that there is something here that is conscious.
But you tell me. How should we proceed?

Ilona
Yes, there is being, awareness, consciousness, reality, life, whatever you wish to call it. Undeniable. Always here now.

Is it I? Or I is a label put over this and assumed to be separate.

And look at body, is it body that is experiencing or body is experience + label 'body'

Is there anything doing looking, seeing?
What is here?

KJ
It's not assumed to be separate because of that.

You could say that body is experienced because of brain.

Without living brain there is no awareness.
So because of that there is separation at some level.
You could say that there's only one life, but experiences are individual.

Please help me with this one. This is the one question that is driving mind insane.

............................
Hi, Don't worry about the brain question.

It cleared this morning :) But I will tell you about it later because I have to start working now.
.............................
Hi,

I'm just checking in. No new questions coming up. Brain-question resolved itself. There cannot be any owner of any experience. Everything is just life happening.
I notice that there is still some kind of waiting-for-something-to-happen-mode going on sometimes.

Ilona
Cool, great to hear.
So can you say that shift has happened and are you ready for the final questions?

:)

KJ
Hi,

I am ready. But I would prefer that if you not publish our conversation. If that's ok with you?
I could say that there is a "shift". The separate self is a total fantasy and I think it's impossible for my brain to start believing that again.

But conditioning is still strong, and that is also the reason why I don't want this to be published.
For some reason I don't want to go very public with these things. I do not know the exact reason.

I want to thank you for your help. I think this kind of work is a gift to mankind.

:)

Ilona
Hi KJ.

I would not publish anything without your permission. Some people prefer if I use a different name it just an initial. But if I don't publish, I can't have other guides to look through and ask questions if they have any, also I can not invite you to support groups where you can get help with working through conditioning. There are lots of new people that you may want to share your experiences with.

 So if you feel strong resistance you may ask a question, what is there to protect and from what?

And perhaps we can work a bit longer, till you have a clear yes, shift happened, all is clear.
What would you like to address before the last questions?

Sending love.

KJ
Ok thank you. Before we go any further I would like to ask you if you read all emails I send to you? Including those where I told you about my history (or story)?

I didn't get reply from you to all of them. That's why I ask. When you answer to this email I then know how to continue from here.

Ilona
Yes, I read all emails.

KJ
Ok good. Then I must ask that if those type of things I wrote to you, are still huge problem for me. Do I have clear eyes?
I mean being around other people is difficult for me. And worrying if they read about "my" story from your blog. I honestly don't know.
I really cannot believe in separate self. But problems and suffering that are caused by belief in one, still exist.

So...what to do?

Thank you for your patience.

Ilona
Hmm, if you still see problems as something you have, then we can look deeper. No rush, it takes as long as it takes, until there is clarity.

So you say, that you can not believe in separate self, that's cool, but how about separate selves in others? Are there others?

What is the worst that can happen if someone would read a story about you? Do you need to protect a story? What makes the story 'mine'?

Write what you notice.  Trust that all is unfolding as it should.


Much love.

KJ
These are all excellent questions. I will dive into them during this weekend.

Thanks Ilona :)

Ilona
Cool :)
Write to me when you got answers.

Much love to you, KJ.

KJ
Are there others? What is the worst that can happen if someone would read a story about you? Do you need to protect a story? What makes the story 'mine'?
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Something came up regarding to these questions. This is two part answer.
Part 1.

You know I could give you good "advaita answer" and say that there is no others or there is no world or nothing exists, but I will not.

Yes. There seems to be a belief that there are others with their own lives and I don't want to be responsible for ruining it for them. That is why there is fear of someone reading my story. Because it can lead them asking me questions about this stuff. And that can lead into serious mental problems for them, if I tell them about reality of life. And if they get mental problems it is my fault and then they will not like me very much. Here we see how the root fear is: "not being liked". Others will not like (love) me. Separation.

I think that at the bottom of all these problems are the core fear that other people will not like me. If I show them my emotions, they will not like me. They will see my true nature and they will just laugh at me and tell me I'm stupid or something. Or that they will be angry with me. I had very difficult childhood and lived in constant fear because my father was a very angry man with difficult mental problems and alcoholism.

Yes. All of this seems to be protection of self image. Maybe the loosing of that image is then same as death (for the mind)

Part 2.

There seems to be others who are still lost in their illusion and not seeing their true nature. And of course that then makes me this realized and wise person. Strange thing is that I realize that this is totally bullshit, but then in the next moment I feel anger if someone is acting based on the false beliefs. But I also realize that it is not false beliefs for them. Just for me.
And maybe the key thing to see would be that there isn't anyone acting...

Ok. Let's continue from here...

...............................
Hi there,

Yesterdays answer was mind stuff. So I will give you another answer from understanding. I just came from walk and something cleared up again. Thoughts were wrestling with this "is there others" question. So there was seeing that, no there is no others or me or anything because I can't find any beginning or end of anything.
So there was walking and suddenly I was everything. Trees, road, dark sky, rain, buildings. Somehow everything has this same essence. I came home and this woman was singing on TV. Suddenly there was burst of joy and tears came. Out of nowhere Seems that this starts to happen more often. Some kind of dam inside is breaking...beautiful :)

Ilona
Oh wow, beautiful..

Nice. Spacious.
So me has been seen to be an illusion?

When you look at KJ, what do you see?

Much love.

KJ
Hi,

This feels almost like a trick question. I will answer to this question when I find the me. Then I can tell if it's a illusion or not.

I can say that it is seen, but there is also falling into doubt and confusion. But it is clear that there is no one falling. It's just thinking. And believing that thinking creates the confusion.

Thanks Ilona :)

.................................

Ilona
hi KJ, how is it going?

KJ
Hi Ilona. is going ok. Sorry I haven't been very active on writing past couple of days. There has been clarity today. Absence of self. It seems that this pattern of clarity and then falling into confusion and kind of depression is going on. That is why it's so difficult to write sometimes. But I actually don't know what to write.
I hope all is going well for you.

............................
Hi there,

I have nothing much to report. Just wanted to check in. All is pretty clear Today there was intense happiness (funny words that "there and here" because I don't know where there/here actually is, it's placeless place)

Very intense energy is going on inside body (actually don't know if that is inside body or placeless place again) and some pain coming to acupuncture points.

Well, that's it for now :)

Ilona
Sounds like you are having fun!

So is there an I in control of what is happening?
Is there a me to be happy of unhappy?

When you look at body, is it your body or body? Is it the body that experiences?

How was your day today?

Describe the view. :)
Sending love.

KJ
No, no I. There is no one controlling anything. No me to be happy or unhappy. And no owner of the body either. When I seem to forget this I always think about the axe :) There's handle and there's blade. But where is the axe itself? Axe is the owner of the blade and the handle??!!...ridiculous. But then again. These are just loops of thought. No one thinking them. Everything is happening automatically.

Today has been fine. It's day off from work because it's independence day. They say that "we are independent from the rest of the world". I sometimes wonder how on earth I managed to go on for 37 years and not seeing the joke Well, it is really convincing illusion.

Thank you Ilona :)

Ilona
You are very welcome!

What happens, when you look at what is looking? What is it that sees?

When you look at others, family, friends, strangers, has the view changed? How?

Much love.

KJ
Hello,
There is nothing that is looking. There is an activity of focusing but it moves on it's own. It only appears that it is under control when focus is in itself. I guess this focusing is the main illusion. That there is some entity moving the focus like flashlight. There is not. The entity is clearly imagined. And this imaging is happening by itself also. There is no way out of this loop because there is no one in the loop! Or maybe there's a way out of it by just seeing the insanity of this. So far it seems that mind or thought is incredibly attracted to this looping thing.

Life appears as sights, sounds, smells, tastes, without a point that is doing those things. But I must say that lately there has been a quality or difference between intellectually grasping this and actually seeing it. Very difficult to explain. I've been having these oneness experiences for long time now but after I started to check this again with you there has been clear recognition couple of times that could be described as absence. Absence of what...I don't know. But I also notice the trap here. Mind is trying to make some kind of goal out of this "true seeing" and push "the seeing of absence" to future.

I guess the most difficult area is with family and friends, so I am still getting angry and frustrated with them. I don't know if one gets ever rid of that. How it is with you? There are times when there's clear recognition of others as myself. But this comes and goes.

Thanks Ilona.

........................
Hi Ilona,

So many days has passed that I assume that you will not answer to my last email. Anyway I have a question for you :)

I think you said somewhere on your site that there will be some kind of knowing or something when the search is over. Can you tell me what you mean by this statement?

I wish you merry Christmas

Ilona
Hi KJ!
Great to hear from you :)
Sorry I did not answer your last email. I was getting sucked in some other stuff...

How is it going?
Can you say that shift has happened? Are there any doubts?

Sending love.

KJ
Hi, Sorry late answer. I was having some difficulties with internet connection. It is going ok thank you. Shift? I don't know. Who or what is there to shift?
I have doubts but I don't write them now because (and don't take this wrong way :) I wrote so much to you and you did not answer to questions. So I think it's a waste of time to write if you are not answering. You asked if I have any doubts. Look at my last email. There is a question. You could also label it a doubt. You can answer to that if you want.

Sorry about this but I have to be honest with you. I really appreciate this, but I am getting a feeling that you want to go through this quickly and get another feather to your hat. Maybe that is why you ignore all the questions. I don't know maybe you have so many people writing to you that you don't have time. Or maybe this is just my fantasy.

If I would say to you now that seeking is over, I would lie. And I think you said that honesty is a key thing in seeing through the illusion.
Do you still want to continue or is there anything to do at this point?

Thank you so much Ilona

Ilona
In this process it is you that finds answers to your questions and mine. What I think is irrelevant. I can only guide you by holding your focus on right questions.

Writing is a tool to focus the mind. If you write to me, I read, of course, but I don't respond because, again, it's irrelevant. Your search is your own. And it is you here that got to think for yourself, trusting your direct experience. This is not a friendly conversation where I answer your questions. You have a question- work it till you know. By yourself, for yourself, for the love of truth. I'm here to help you with that, but not to do your work.

I care not for any feather on my hat, as the biggest gift for me from you is your recognition of freedom. Please don't believe the stories that your mind creates about me. It's just mental images.

Ok. So your question was and still is how do you know when the search is over?
How would you know?

If the search is still going, it's obviously still here.

The questions I suggest- is there a searcher, or search is going on by itself? Are you doing the searching? Can you stop at will? Can you just quit, if you choose so? Is there any control over what is happening?

Sending love.

KJ
It is possible that you already received one reply to this mail but I'm not sure because I have still problems with internet connection.

I am writing this from another computer shortly, but I will get back to you later when I get my connection back. Your answer was quite powerful. I thank you for it. It really stopped all the bullshit that mind is throwing. I let this question of "ending the search" sit until I get my internet back. Thank you for not giving up with me :)

.........................
Hello. Ok. I got my net connection back.
How would I know when the search is over?
It is obvious and clear that there is no one doing the seeking. It cannot be stopped by illusory will power.
If one believes all the sages and enlightened people who are saying that all mental suffering can be resolved by seeing this then I would say that the search ends when suffering ends.

But I think that you said that suffering doesn't end on awakening but is resolved over time.
Also there is this unity experience coming and going. It's more often now since I started to talk with you. There is this constant expectation that when this experience doesn't leave then that is also a sign of search ending.

But I'm beginning to see that this unity experience must always go at some point because it comes. Like all experience.

I'm quite tired of this flip flopping. I really don't know even what I'm seeking anymore. It seems that these moments of clarity and happiness comes, but they always go.
What's next I don't know?

Ilona
Hello. Ok. I got my net connection back.
How would I know when the search is over?
It is obvious and clear that there is no one doing the seeking. It cannot be stopped by illusory will power.

Nice.

If one believes all the sages and enlightened people who are saying that all mental suffering can be resolved by seeing this then I would say that the search ends when suffering ends.

Seeing this first time is an opening. From that seeing everything starts falling off, nothing that is not true sticks anymore... So suffering does not end instantly, but there is a space around it and it is no longer seen as bad or wrong.

When you go to school first year, you are not expecting to pass high school exams, just the same here, taking the first peak does not end all suffering. It's the beginning of dissolving beliefs and suffering is closely connected to them.

But I think that you said that suffering doesn't end on awakening but is resolved over time.
Also there is this unity experience coming and going. It's more often now since I started to talk with you. There is this constant expectation that when this experience doesn't leave then that is also a sign of search ending.

Search ends, when you no longer look for answers from someone else, you find all your answers by yourself. And second hand experience is confirming what you see, rather then being a source of knowledge of what you should see.  That is obvious, when you read or listen to somebody else's experiences and recognize what they are talking about.

But I'm beginning to see that this unity experience must always go at some point because it comes. Like all experience.

Yes, experiences are impermanent.

I'm quite tired of this flip flopping.

It is ok to relax.

I really don't know even what I'm seeking anymore.

Maybe you are not seeking anymore? Check.

It seems that these moments of clarity and happiness comes, but they always go.
What's next I don't know?

Nice.  I don't know either :)

Much love.

KJ
Hi Ilona, and thank you for your answer. Fantastic stuff.
This sentence I didn't quite understand. Could you put it in other words...please ? :) -----------------------

And second hand experience is confirming what you see, rather then being a source of knowledge of what you should see.  That is obvious, when you read or listen to somebody else's experiences and recognize what they are talking about.
--------------------  Happy new year! :)

Ilona
hm, i must say, when you cross the line, it makes perfect sense.
in other words, your direct experience and your own description of it is your first hand experience. when anyone else describes what they see, it is a second hand experience. these second hand descriptions are just that, descriptions, but if you see the same, you recognize what these descriptions are in your direct experience. so when you see clearly and read something by someone else there is confirmation of what you see.

hope that makes it clearer.

how is it going?

happy new year to you!
much love.

KJ
ok thanks, now I got it. Maybe it was the concept second hand that got me confused. But I am not 100% sure if I crossed the line...

it's going ok thank you. Yesterday was again stunning clarity. You asked me to check if seeking is still going on. It was clear that there was no one seeking. How is that even possible? But at the same time when there's recognition of seeker missing, there is also fear that if I let go of seeking "I will never get this" and fall back to old. Whatever that means...Then...who can let go of seeking and fall back? Somehow it feels that I just need final little push...I don't know what that could be. Maybe the need for that final little push is the last obstacle. And then what?

Ilona
ok thanks, now I got it. Maybe it was the concept second hand that got me confused. But I am not 100% sure if I crossed the line...

Then you haven't.  There is definite knowing when line is crossed. Knowing that there never was any line.

it's going ok thank you. Yesterday was again stunning clarity. You asked me to check if seeking is still going on. It was clear that there was no one seeking. How is that even possible? But at the same time when there's recognition of seeker missing, there is also fear that if I let go of seeking "I will never get this" and fall back to old.

Nice. But what is that I that will never get this? Find that I. Perhaps look behind the fear.

Whatever that means...Then...who can let go of seeking and fall back? Somehow it feels that I just need final little push...I don't know what that could be. Maybe the need for that final little push is the last obstacle. And then what?

Then just more of the same- chop wood, carry water. :) but without the urge to get out from here and now to whatever 'next'.

What is not on automatic?

Sending love.

KJ
This "crossing the line" is same thing as "stop believing in separate self" correct?
When I am feeling fear with other people and urge to escape, isn't this same as believing that there is separate self?

So how can I know that some kind of line is crossed when these things still happen?

There is no way that I could know.
I can know these moments of relief when it is realized that there is no separate self. But these always fade away.

It seems that I'm holding this complete end of suffering as a sign that line is crossed.
But I also know that it is bullshit. How can something that has been going on for over 40 years disappear so quickly?
Many teachers really say that it can happen. Maybe it does for some.
Ok, this seems to be just babbling with myself. But I think you said that it's the whole point. Answer your own questions.

I feel like Gollum/Smeagol split...

Leave now and never come back!!!!! You know that scene? It's fantastic!

Hehe...Comment if you want :)

Ilona
This "crossing the line" is same thing as "stop believing in separate self" correct?

Yes.

When I am feeling fear with other people and urge to escape, isn't this same as believing that there is separate self?

No. That is feeling fear, nothing to do with self or no self. It's to do with old hidden beliefs and emotional wounds.

So how can I know that some kind of line is crossed when these things still happen?

When you stop thinking that these things should not happen.

There is no way that I could know.
I can know these moments of relief when it is realized that there is no separate self. But these always fade away.

Was there ever a separate self?

It seems that I'm holding this complete end of suffering as a sign that line is crossed.

That is an expectation at play.  You expect eternal bliss happy ever after, when this 'crossing the line' is a new beginning, that's all.

But I also know that it is bullshit. How can something that has been going on for over 40 years disappear so quickly?

Exactly. But then again, what is it at owns the conditioning?

Many teachers really say that it can happen. Maybe it does for some.

You can only experience how it is for you.

Ok, this seems to be just babbling with myself. But I think you said that it's the whole point. Answer your own questions.

Nice.

I feel like Gollum/Smeagol split...
Leave now and never come back!!!!! You know that scene? It's fantastic!

Love it. And just saw hobbit, it's fantastic.

There is no one here to leave and never come back, it was never here to start with. It's imagined.

Hehe...Comment if you want :)
:)

.......................
Hi Ilona, Sorry I haven't been answering. Very busy week in work. At evenings I've been so tired that I did not have energy for anything.

But I think I'm cooked :) Or in other words there is no more I to be cooked. At Monday I was at grocery store holding a bread on my hand.
Thought arose....
"At what point this bread stops being bread and changes it's existence to KJ????" Few seconds later I was one with the whole store... :)"

The feeling of unity fades away but that's how it goes. Nothing left to seek.
Have a nice weekend

Ilona
Wonderful! :) sounds that something has changed. Nothing left to seek is a great confirmation of arrival.

How does if feel when you are among people, is the anxiety still there? Can you write more please, when you can, what is the same and what is different.

Big smile :))
Sending love.

KJ
No. Nothing left to seek means that there never is/was anyone seeking. Who is arriving and to where?? There is no one arriving anywhere, there never was. There is only thought looping by itself and imagining these things. It feels that someone is watching this thinking loop but there isn't anyone. Watcher is also imagined. Experiencer is the experienced. These apparent two create each other. But there never is two.
Ok now the question about anxiety. In thinking, there's images about other people. About many people that I know in many situations. I am always the knower of these images, never "inside" them.  There is a feeling of these people being superior and better. Meaning that there is for example image of them watching me blushing  and being awkward and judging me because of that They are always normal and confident and I am this fearful poor bastard who looks like is losing his mind in any second. And they are watching this very closely. They never say anything to my face but their judgment can be seen in their eyes and behavior. Often my girlfriend is there also and is feeling embarrassed because of my condition. There is huge guilt because I ruin her life like this.
Above thinking pattern IS my so called ego.

Images of these other people that create their opposite, and that is this poor "me" who is nothing like them, but should be. And wants so desperately be normal like they are. The social fear in everyday life happens because of this thinking pattern. This still happens but doesn't have so much power anymore. Sometimes when there is clear seeing and feeling of not-twoness, then the anxiety doesn't arise.

But I hesitate to answer what is the same and what is different, because there is fear that by defining some kind of condition, is then fixating to that. And when it naturally changes, then suffering arises. So I will not give any fixed statements.

Ilona
Hi KJ. Very nice to hear that seeking is ending.

Now let's look at images. Imagine this me in a circle of all these people, that you normally chat with in your head. Let that image stay here for a bit and examine it. What is it made of? What is the worst that can happen to this freshly created image? Does it need to be protected?

Look in the image and at KJ inside it. What can happen to KJ, me, that would be the worst? Now imagine that happening. Then see: Is the image reality? What is happening right now?  What sensations arise in the body?

Just really investigate, how images in the mind are not what is actually happening.

Write what you notice.

When you describe something that is happening right now, this is a point of view, it's never solid. It is always changing. So can you describe what has changed since we started the conversation. Just what feels honest and right. Not asking for more.

Much love.


KJ
Hi Ilona C :)
I'm just checking in. I've been doing your practice and will write later more about that.
Maybe weekend I have more time.

Things are going relatively well...

Ilona
Write more soon KJ!
Much love to you.

KJ
That is so true. Image doesn't need protection. But when there's interaction with people in everyday life, it is not image in the mind that is interacting. It is flesh and blood. And sometimes that bag of flesh and blood is mistaken as separate entity and compared to other imagined separate entities But this is a good practice what you suggested. And I must say that these thought scenarios that I wrote you about in last email don't come so often any more  Usually when I know that I have to go somewhere where is interacting with "others" then this imagining starts.

Recently I've been experiencing this kind of repulsion towards these things (maybe that is too strong word but you get the picture :)
I mean that thought about watching some nonduality video or reading a book is really sickening. This means that also writing to you is really difficult.
I don't know why this is happening but thinking gave two possibilities.

1. Mind is trying to stay in control and is trashing this "seeking enlightenment" as nonsense crap that is going nowhere.

2. Seeking is coming to an end and this is natural stage at this point.

I am also noticing that there is not so much of thinking about this stuff any more  It was for years non-stop thought stream with not much room for anything else.

Also there is more of intense happy emotions and this is nice of course. This is usually like for example when hearing a favourite song, (even in head) The emotion is boosted like 500% and often is difficult not to weep. This is of course really embarrassing because I'm a strong man that should not weep like sissy girls :) hehehe...

The general feeling is that condition is melting away more and more. And this has been more obvious since we started this conversation. Sometimes this is difficult to see because this is happening kind of slowly and only when looking back it is realized that life is much easier now.

Thank you Ilona :)

Ilona
Hi KJ,
Thank you very much for writing to me. As I see some change is here. Need to look for answers in what others say has dropped, that is so nice to hear. Yeah, the shift is subtle, but implications are huge. And you are right saying that only when looked back that difference can be seen.. This resonates here too.

Would you say, you are ready to answer the final questions? Once you answer them and it's all clear I can invite you to join in the LU community :)

KJ
Hi Ilona,

Yes. The seeking is 95% gone. Some days I find it entertaining to read few pages of some spiritual book or maybe watch a video interview of someone, but mostly there's still the repulsion. I just can't hear about it any more you know. If anyone talks about the ocean and the wave I want to scream. Hehehe. I guess this is the famous "leaving the raft behind" point. But yes, I am ready for your final questions. It may take a while before you get answers because of this phase, but I try to answer ASAP.

Thank you so much! This has been painful and entertaining :)

By the way. Are you going to science and nonduality conference in Holland ?

Ilona
Sweet! Here they are :)
No, I'm not going there, are you?

KJ
Hi Ilona,
In this email I will answer to questions 1 & 2

1) Is there a separate 'me' 'I' 'self' , at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

No, there isn't. I self or me appears only in language. In thinking and in speech. Some use this word in pointing to some kind of inside-the-body-entity and others directly to body. Often these go hand in hand. Obviously the process we call body exists, but it is not separate from anything else.

2) in the experience, is there an experiencer? Is it body that experiences or is the body the experienced?

If I have to choose from these two options I would say that number 2 (body is experienced) is closer to truth. But it is not experienced "by anything" In this case various sensations and perceptions are experienced and labeled "body".
Other answers coming later. And yes. I am going to that conference ;-)

Ilona
Cool, thanks for answers. :)

Nice that you are going to the conference!

KJ
Hello,
Before we get to my answer I have to report something. During these past couple of weeks the fear hasn't been very much around any more  From somewhere I've got the courage not to escape it so quickly and when there was accepting of it, it started to diminish. There seems to be allowance of that more and more and it is not so much of a problem any more. Thank you...so much... :)
Ok...and now to answer number 3.
.....................
3) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works.

Illusion of separate self starts early on when language is learned (maybe around age 1-2). Apparent objects are labeled and all of these imagined objects are assumed having separate existence. Bodies and also movement or behaviour of these bodies are labeled. Some behaviour is labeled bad and other good. So things like "KJ is a good boy because he ate all his vegetables" is learned. Comparing the "me-object" to others begins. Psychological self, the ego, is created with this labeling and comparison. Of course all of this is happening automatically and there isn't anyone doing it.
Answers 4,5,6 &7 coming later :)

Ilona
That is great to hear that fear is melting away.. Big hug.

Thank you for answer to number 3.
"Psychological self, the ego, is created with this labeling and comparison. "
So true. And it's so innocent.

Sending love.

KJ
Hello Ilona. Here's rest of my answers...

4) How does it feel to see this?

For me the seeing has been going on for many years and is best described as process, and not any particular event. Anyway there has been these many aha-moments when something is understood or seen.
When it was understood that separate self is an illusion, the anxiety that I had for decades started melting. It was slow process (and is still going on) It can be very subtle but only when looking back you realize the huge change.

But surprisingly when I saw that there is no separation it felt very familiar and ordinary.  No incredible fireworks or anything like that.
Sometimes there was quiet peace and joy and sometimes this seeing happened when I was very agitated.

5 ) How would you describe it to somebody who has never heard about this illusion but is curious about it?

This is hard question and I would say that depends very much what kind of person I'm talking to. If I  would explain this to hardcore seeker then it would be very different than if I would explain it to someone who is not very familiar with the subject. Maybe first I would ask if they can see any border between them and rest of existence.


6) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look? Can you describe the moment when seeing happened?

Maybe it was the realization that there isn't anyone that can be pushed over. The moment was very much like when you understand a joke and it makes you laugh.

7)  Anything to add?

For you Ilona I want to say thank you from the bottom of my heart. Words can't express the gratitude I am feeling and I wish I could be there so I could give you a big hug. Maybe someday who knows :)
Thank you for your patience and love. Life is doing incredible work as you.

-----------

PS: If you want to publish what we've been writing I would appreciate if you use letters KJ instead of name.

This request is not coming any more from fear ;-)

Ilona
Thank you KJ for beautiful answers and yes, I can see a big change in you too. :)
I will put up the blogpost and let you know if my other friends guides have any questions, if none will invite you to join LU groups. There are many friends to meet and share your journey.

It has been my pleasure to assist you.

Much love.


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