I Thought It Would Be a Castaneda Style Earth-Shaking Event

Ilona:

Hi Ghazni,

Tell me a bit about your journey so far and what is it you are looking for. What should be different? What is that you hope will happen.

Just write fully and honestly.

For the time of conversation I recommend to stop reading any materials, watching videos and so on, and meditation is fine, but no more listening to what others say, I need you to focus on your own experience and answer only from what feels true to you.

Kind regards.

Ghazni

Mar 1

Thank you for accepting my request. As is common since youth i had a great desire to change myself as well as the world as per my heart's wishes.  Around fifteen years ago I realized that there were no chances of any changes whatsoever in my personal or social life. I felt defeated and i accepted the defeat superficially. Deep down, however, i remained the same. i read a long line of writers, gurus and Sufis to find a key. I also practised

a number of meditations which are useful, but have no decisive impact to break the old me. Now as ever I am looking for something that can lead me to a state of mind which is clean from what you call a voice in the head. I hope I convey something. can you help me in my desire to stop thinking and accept what is from the depth of my heart.  
thank you.

Ilona

Mar 1

Thank you for answer.

I am not surprised that you cannot find the way to stop thinking. It is not the goal. It is not about state of mind free from voice in the head. Not even close.

It's about seeing what is as it is, that includes everything:  voice in the head, stories, feelings, intense feelings, and even resistance. So this expectation to stop thinking is completely unrealistic and useless. What you are looking for is peace and acceptance of voice in the head. Not getting rid of it. It same like getting rid of your own head.

Now tell me, what is wrong with thinking? What if thinking is actually ok? Are certain thoughts a problem? Which ones?

Beside, this is not about state at all.  It's not about many things, you can read this to get better idea what this process is about.

http://liberationunleashed.com/LU_FAQ.html

Sending love.

Ghazni

Mar 1

Thank you very much for the pain you are taking guiding me. after reading the FAQs I feel that the main  culprit in the drama seems to be the very self that is engaged in seeking enlightenment. the same self is feeling incomplete and the same self is trying to attain completion through different means (religion, education, culture). I have tried to look at the self. I can feel it as an entity, not as an illusion.

with regards.

Ilona

Mar 2

Yes, you notice very well- there is a drama about self being engaged in seeking and feeling incomplete.

It feels like an entity, but where IS this entity? Can you pin point it's location? When and where is it seen and experienced? Or is it the experiencer? Or it's all a story ABOUT self? Can this self be touched, seen, heard, smelled, tasted? Or is it a thought, sensation, feeling? Find it and describe what is this word self, points to in actuality. Look in experience that is happening now. This is where you look for it.

Sending love.

Ghazni

Mar 2

The self being a psychological entity cannot be pinpointed on any location in the body, but its impact can be noticed throughout the body. Breaking news on TV brings alertness to the entire body. A depressive news brings depression to the entire body. Alertness and depression are both psychological matters primarily. These cannot be pinpointed on any physical location. This being so I will never catch the self .but it does not mean that it is illusory. do I make sense or am indulging in verbosity. Perhaps my inability to understand this point has delayed my progress on the path. Plz tell how to close in on the matter.

Thank you.

Ilona

Mar 2

Ok, let's close in. Watch what arises in the body and thoughts when you let this thought in:

There is no self at all in reality, none as in ZERO. No I, that is managing, controlling, experiencing life, no one pulling the strings, no doer, no thinker, no separate entity.

All there is is life flowing freely as one unified movement. All is just happening. No one is making life to happen same way as no one is making it rain. ALL is life. There is nothing separate and nothing that needs to be fixed.

Write where most resistance is felt.

What is most difficult to accept?

Sending love.

Ghazni

Mar 2

The statement has absolutely no appeal to me. it seems too simple. I still believe that there is a natural system of cause and effect which makes rain. I once read in osho that if I remember the idea that things happen on their own for 24hours, I would accept the statement as true. I tried to do it. but nothing happened. What is to be done In this situation. please.

Ilona

Mar 2

The statement has absolutely no appeal to me.it seems too simple.

This is subtle resistance,  it's too simple. What if it's just how it is? Does it need to be complicated? What would be lost if it really is this simple. This just is.   By this I mean what is here now.

I still believe that there is a natural system of cause and effect which makes rain.

Everything influences everything else. Stimulus - reactions arise spontaneously, in the moment. Is there something behind experience now making this happen? Or sitting, reading, body movements, sounds, colours smells all are simply here without the orchestrator?

I once read in osho that if I remember the idea that things happen on their own for 24hours , I would accept the statement as true. I tried to do it .but nothing happened. What is to be done In this situation .please.

Not surprised, new beliefs don't last long. This is about looking, not remembering some mantra.

In this moment now, what is that you are making happen?

Ghazni

Mar 2

In this moment now I' am making happen an email to you. the I' in me has made all the effort to access you. the I' In me is trying to get something fruitful out of this dialogue. but you say that this i'does not exist. it is illusory. things happen on their own without any doer. how will I convince my reason to see this apparent over-simplification as the truth. please respond.

Ilona

Mar 3

This is not about understanding, it's about looking at what is already obvious and recognizing what is. We are not trying to convince you of anything, but inviting you to take a look for yourself. What is true?

Is there I right now that is reading these words, or reading is just happening, simply, effortlessly? Can you stop seeing letters and meaning now? Eyes are open, words are seen, meaning received, which part of it are you doing at will?

Looking and thinking/ reasoning is not the same.

So LOOK, what is true in experience, right now? Look as if you do not know anything. Can a doer be found?

It is up to you to take a look. That means put aside all that you expect to see, all that you want to see, what you think, and just take a look.

There is no you- doer.

There is just looking, sitting, reading, thinking, breathing, hearing, etc... Happening.

Ghazni

Mar 3

Thank you,  ilona. I feel helpless. i cannot see anything other than I. I seems to be the motivating factor behind everything, good ,bad, right, wrong, lovely, ugly etc. I do not know what to do.

highest regards.

Ilona

What do you mean that you can not see anything but I? What is I in your opinion? Describe it.

Ghazni

I means myself. it is my interests. My distinctions. my pride. my goodness. My badness. happiness. frustration. everything. it constitutes the deepest foundation of my thinking and activities. however something in me says that humans can and should go beyond it. hence this struggle for enlightenment.

Ilona

Mar 5

Can you find that which claim all this to be MINE?

What is that owns life?

Or it's just a thought?

Don't answer too quickly, have a good look, what is that makes all this mine? What is this owner and where? 

Ghazni

Mar 5

Thank you Ilona for the continuous drilling in to the matter. It seems difficult to locate that which claims all this to be Mine. There seems to be nothing that owns life. The claims of Me, Mine and I seem to be just thoughts. Now a question. What if I accept thoughts as thoughts not as realities. Would it be closer to truth. Please feel free to use the Zen stick if necessary.

with regards.

Ilona

Mar 6

Try this.

Close your eyes and hold an imaginary melon.

Create in the mind and see it as vividly as you can, feel the texture, size, temperature, all..

See it as real.

Then open your eyes.

What happened to the melon?

Can you see the absence of melon?

Was there ever one?

Same with this self thingy. It's imagined, as real, but it's not. It's just nothing there. Have a look.

No owner. It seems that there is.

It's seems to be more then thoughts.

Thoughts seem to be realities. Just like that melon, imagined world. Look at what is here now. This is it. perceiving exists.  Where is the owner of THIS. ?

Right now, this moment, with or without thoughts.

Write what comes up.

Ghazni

Mar 7

Hi Ilona.

And now I came out of imagination. The melon has disappeared. as you have pointed out the melon did not exist in reality. You are right in saying that the self thingy is also a thought. but it seems more than a thought.

The crucial point is that the thought of self, though as unreal as the thought of water melon, cannot be dropped so easily. this is the problem. how to drop the idea of self as I have dropped the idea of  melon?

however I see a difference between the two ideas. the idea of melon was consciously created by me while the  idea of self comes automatically.

I see the reality of the moment. But the moment is heavily dominated by the routine worries and frustrations.

I would like to mention that I was catapulted into the world of meditation by the feelings of extreme frustrations. I thought that meditation or spirituality will provide me an escape route which has not happened so far. after reading your FAQs  i have become further hopeless. I feel no exit situation .

Regards.

Ilona

Mar 9

And now I came out of imagination. The melon has disappeared.as you have pointed out the melon did not exist in reality. You are right in saying that the self thingy is also a thought.

but it seems more than a thought.

Yes, it seems more then thought, but is it? Is I something that can be experienced trough senses? Or it's all made of thoughts about thoughts about thoughts?

The crucial point is that the thought of self, though as unreal as the thought of water melon, cannot be dropped so easily.

Though is just that, thought, a unit, a carrier of meaning, thought is happening. Image of melon that mind created is not reality. It's an image in the mind, it is experienced, sensed, felt, but it's not real. This is the crucial thing to see.

What exists, what is, is this that is here happening right now. The rest is imagined. Look around. This is. Sensations are happening. Seeing, hearing, smelling, feeling, thinking, touching, tasting, this is life happening.

this is the problem. how to drop the idea of self as I have dropped the idea of  melon?

You recognised that it was imagined.

however I see a difference between the two ideas. the idea of melon was consciously created by me

Not by you. You is imagined.

while the the idea of self comes automatically.

Yes, automatically. Mind has created an image of 'me' ghazni. It's imagined.  Have a look for yourself. Is it true or false?

I see the reality of the moment . But the moment is heavily dominated by the routine worries and frustrations.

All worries are images too.

I feel no exit situation .

That's where you start looking at what is true..

Sending love.

Ghazni

Mar 10

Thank you for continuing the lively conversation. I am less stressed today. resistance to what you say is also less. at first reading I did not quite  understand the things. after reading it fourth or more times it became clear. I am inclined to accept your position that the self is just a thought having no real existence. does this acceptance mean anything? will it be helpful in the process?

Sorry I lack stamina to complete the answer.

Will continue tomorrow.

Thank you.

Ilona

Mar 11

Nice to hear that resistance is melting. But we are not talking here about accepting this as a new belief, you have to test it. So look, is there a self?

What would be lost if that was true?

What would need to be different if that is the case already?

Just look for yourself, plain and simple. It's not hidden

Sending love.

Ghazni

Mar 12

Hi Ilona,

thank God that resistance is melting. I m tired of it. Now your question, look is there a self? I am looking. Can't see anything like self in the physical sense but it seems to be there as a forceful mental habit. what will be lost if it were true ?Nothing will be lost rather much will be gained.

Ur next question. What would need to be different if that is the case already? If it it is already the case then there should be a lot of relaxation. Regards

Ghazni

Mar 15

Hi ilona. I hope you are all right. I miss your message. please say something.am I too far away from the goal? regards.

Ilona

Mar 15

Hi

Sorry for delay. Here is my reply, below.

What would be gained? What benefits do you expect?

If it it is already the case then there should be a lot of relaxation. 

Well. If it's already the case, then all is as should be. Including relaxation and tension. Relaxation happens. Tension happens. Nothing is permanent. Like breathing in breathing out. It's a process.

You think life is about relaxation? I say life is about living and it includes everything. Freedom is not from emotions, that are unwanted, freedom is to feel all as it is, without naming it wanted or unwanted. Freedom to experience all that is coming up without judgment.

Is mental habit something that you do, you manage, or it's happening on it's own, by itself?

Sending love.

Ghazni

Mar 15

Hi ilona. thank you.your question, what would be gained? what benefits do you expect? if I see that I is an illusion, that it does not exist, the whole egoic structure will either fall down completely or at least it will become weak. the breakdown or the weakening of the ego will clear my vision. I think that I is the main psychological barrier preventing me from understanding and walking the path of truth. the seeing of the illusion will make my journey easy.

Your other question, is mental habit something that you do, you manage, or it is happening on its own, by itself? it is independent. it happens on itself. it manages me. if I try to manage it on occasions, it puts up a very tough fight and usually wins.

regards.

Ilona

Mar 16

What is this ego that needs to weaken and break down? How is ego experienced? Where is it? What happens if word ego is replaced with word character? Does character (including all patterns of behavior, likes, dislikes, etc) need to weaken and collapse?

Is ego something that clouds vision? How? Look around now, is there ego in between seen and the seer, is vision clouded by thoughts?

How about this I that tries to manage habits, is that not another habit happening by itself?

Write what feels true :)

Sending love.

Ghazni

Mar 17

Hi ilona

I am feeling confused. I fear I am repeating myself. perhaps the 'ego' that needs to weaken or breakdown, the 'mental habits' the 'self' the 'I' the 'psychological barrier 'the 'character' seem to be the same thing.

I experience ego mainly in the form of frustration over my inability to control the things around me. I feel that if the ego is not there, the frustration is not there.

where is it(ego)?

it is in the mind.

What happens if the word ego is replaced by the word character?

Nothing significant is expected to happen by the change of words.

Does character (including all patterns of behavior, likes, dislikes etc.) needs to weaken or collapse?

I do not know how I should answer this query. ideally I should have the ability to reform the negative aspects of character.

I believe ego does cloud vision. I think if there is no ego, the gate will be seen immediately.

I am not exact but there is definitely something between the seen and the seer. otherwise if there are no clouds, than why this confusion and delay in seeing the illusion of self which you say is something very simple to see.

The I that tries to manage the habits is definitely another habit which happens on its own.

Sorry I could not follow the writing protocols Of LU because of lack of knowledge in IT.

Regards.

Ilona

Mar 17

I experience ego mainly in the form of frustration over my inability to control the things around me.

You believe that you can control things around you, but is it true? Can you make life go your way? Are you the manager of what is happening? What evidence is there?

 Where is it(ego)?

it is in the mind.

Where is mind? What does word mind point to?

Is it the thinker or the stream of thoughts? Are thoughts coming in one after another one by one or in bunches?

I do not know how I should answer this query. ideally I should have the ability to reform the negative aspects of character.

This made me smile. Ideally I should have... :) this is a nice expectation, but it's just that- an expectation.  This is an assumption that you are the puppet master of the character. But there is only a story about a character. No actor playing the role.

It's like if batman was worried about his character. Same stuff. It's all part of story.

I believe ego does cloud vision.

No it does not. Ego does not exist. Vision is not clouded.  Look around. Shapes and colours are here, always clear. Is seeing obstructed by ego right now?

What clouds experience is focusing on thinking and believing thoughts.

Look here now, right this moment, is vision clouded? Look around, this is it.  This is all there is to SEE.

What is here?

This IS. The story in the head is always about what ISN'T.

I think if there is no ego, the gate will be seen immediately.

There isn't.  But it can be believed that it is real.

Like Santa.

Kid believes till he realizes that it's a fantasy.

I am not exact but there is definitely something between the seen and the seer.

What is it?

otherwise if there are no clouds, than why this confusion and delay in seeing the illusion of self which you say is something very simple to see.

What's in the way? Expectations. Thoughts about how this should be. Beliefs that need to be looked at. Like now, you believe that there is a gap, because it seems so. But have a look, is there?

The I that tries to manage the habits is definitely another habit which happens on its own.

Ha. That is true.

Sorry I could not follow the writing protocols Of LU because of lack of knowledge in IT.

There are no protocols, it's just me a you talking.  

Much love.

Ghazni

Mar 18

I am grateful for your elaborate answer. to close in on the subject, I would like to respond to only a few points raised in your email. this will help me focus.

You agreed that ego, mental habit, the self, the I, the psychological barrier, character are the same thing and that it is imagined. Now can we do something to break the hold of this imagined thing on my behavior.

Your second point is that I believe that I can control things happening around me.  this belief is untrue and therefore i do not insist on it. but I can not totally relinquish this belief. the reason is that if I totally relinquish control, things may go topsy turvy. to be specific, for example, if do not control my monthly budget, my children will spend my monthly pension in a single day and then wait for the help of god for the rest of the month. Now how to reconcile this everyday problem with your fundamental principle that there is no doer. regards.

Ilona

Mar 19

You look in your experience right here right now, what is actually happening.  Just look. Without imagining what isn't, what IS? What is actually here?

Thing is, there never was a self- no separate entity at all as in zero- that ever was in charge of anything. So nothing changes, just a belief drops. Like Santa belief. A kid believes that Santa is a magical creature till he recognizes the truth of it, there never was a Santa. Same stuff. So life goes on as it does, things get done, budget is managed, all flows freely. The apparent control is there, but, is there a controller? Are you the controller? How do you know that? What is true in experience right now?

Are you controlling reading these words? Or reading is effortlessly happening? How about seeing, are you in charge of what is seen? Are you managing which sounds are heard? Which sensations arise, what thoughts come up? Are you in charge of what feelings are felt?

Now how to reconcile this everyday problem with your fundamental principle that there is no doer.

There is no doer, it's the language that creates one.

Here is an article for you. http://markedeternal.blogspot.co.uk/2012/01/trick-of-language.html

Examine for a day, how language creates a subject doing action. Is it true in experience?

Sending love.

Ghazni

Mar 20

Hi ilona

I am reading and re-reading your email and your article titled 'tricks of the language'. I am trying to digest these contents. I agree with many of your points up to 50%. your Santa example is very clear. when I was too small I asked my mother how did I come to this life. she told me she picked me from the nearby stream. I believed in her story for a long time until one day the matter was cleared  by undeniable evidence and it was  cleared for ever. my conversation with you shows that self ,I or me etc is a similar story.

you and the countless other awakened people are absolutely clear about the falseness of the self .I trust you people and hope strongly that one day I will be amongst you. l do not want to ask anything in today's message. it is meant only to register my presence. regards.

Ghazni

Mar 21

Hi Ilona

In your prevoius message you asked me to "look in your experience right here right now, what is actually happening. just look. without imagining what is not, what IS?

What is actually here?"

looking under this formula there is no self, me ,I etc. instead there is a situation like a scene in a movie. there is a room. one living body labelled ghazni  is lying on a couch with a mobile in its(body's) hands. a finger moves and certain words are being typed. there is a feeling of irritation and doubt about what is being done. is it something meaningful or useless rambling. Certain sounds are being heard. Certain thoughts are being thought. now this is this. the scene has been described.

can something come out of this?

Highest regards.

Ilona

Mar 21

Yes, this is exactly where to look- here now. And yes, you see, this is here and it includes sensations + labelling what is going on.

Here is an exercise for you. Do it here or on a paper, doesn't matter. Notice, how labels change the flavor of experienced. Are descriptions affecting what is happening? In what way?

Is I label or the doer?

Write what you notice

Sending love.

Ghazni

Mar 22

Hi ilona

I am not sure I understand the  exercise. however I reply in order to keep the ball rolling. your instruction to "notice, how labels change the flavor of the experienced. "makes me a little bored' irritated and frustrated at the fact that I do not understand how labels change the flavor of the experienced. the flavor of green tea will remain the same no matter whether it is labelled honey, fish or syrup.

"Are descriptions affecting what is happening. "now descriptions are stories, points of view, interpretations about what is happening. happenings seem to be objective and independent of will while descriptions are subjective.

"Is I label or the doer"?. again label is a label. it cannot be doer.at best label is only a name, a pointer to the doer not the doer itself. perhaps l understand the problem of I intellectually but to integrate it to my life existentially remains a challenge.

Regards.

Ilona

Mar 22

Did you do the exercise?

Can you do it here, in email? Perhaps you haven't done it right.

Ghazni

Mar 22

Hi ilona

No. I have not done the exercise because I do not know how to do it either on paper or on email. I only did something from the mind.

Is this inability to understand and do the exercise a genuine inability or a sort of unconscious resistance?

Your next question: "so there is a doer. what is this doer"?

Perhaps the body mind conglomerate is the doer.

Regards.

Ilona

Mar 23

The instructions are pretty simple, so just do it. Write for ten minutes in a different way, what is not to understand here? Play with it.

What have you got to lose if you do this exercise? What is behind this resistance? Fear?

Your next question: "so there is a doer. what is this doer"?

Perhaps....

Stop right here. Perhaps= I think. It shows that you are answering from the head, when you need to look in direct experience and see what is actually happening.

Right here right now, is there something that is doing reading these words or it's simply happening? Is there a gap between you and reading?

Ghazni

Mar 24

Sorry to bother you. if you can kindly rehash/re-phrase the exercise.

"What have you got to lose if you do the exercise? what is behind  this resistance? fear?"

As a matter of fact I have nothing to lose but my ignorence. there is no fear as far as I can understand. rather i am quite ready and enthusiastic to see the illusion.

"Right here, right  now ,is there something doing reading these words or it is simply happening? Is there a gap between you and reading?" eyes see the words, meanings are understood directly and there is no gap between me and reading. but the fact remains that there is something within which is giving great time and attention to the issue at hand.

However

There is an irritation in my body and mind as to why I cannot see the the truth, which according to the people in LU is extremely simple.

Regards.

Ilona

Mar 24

It is simple, you just need to face it. There is no self as in zero. None whatsoever. No manager, no center of command, no controller, no manipulator, no doer, no thinker, no entity at all.

Face it.

What comes up?

Ghazni

Mar 26

Hi ilona

Your instruction ;"it is very simple, you just need to face it. there is no self as in zero--------- no entity at all.

Face it."

No entity, yes. an idea only. I am facing it. but I do not know when I will be able to see it through. resistance has changed its style. I could not sleep because of it. there was pain in the legs which was generated by the self anxious about its uncertain future .please say something how to face it once and for all.

Regards.

Ilona

Mar 26

No entity, yes. an idea only.

Yes. How does it feel to see this?

I am facing it. but I do not know when I will be able to see it through.

What is the I that needs to see through? Another idea?

What is here without ideas? What is underneath all thinking? Does thinking make this happen or it's all happening with and without thinking? I mean sensations, sounds, view, smells, taste, touch sensations?

What is not on automatic? What is it that you actually are in control of? In actuality, not in ideas.

At this time a journey into nature would be very helpful. Just spend some time in a park or whatever you find and see how everything moves and wiggles. Watch this movement of totality and notice, how everything is included in this- wind, clouds, trees, flowers, animals, birds, this body, breathing, sensing, thinking, feeling.... It's all one movement of what IS. Isness, being, is it separate from the whole? Can you find a line where me is here and world is there? Is there a boundary in experience?

Watch how spring is happening. Circumstances, situation is right, so all this is manifesting. It rains when conditions are met. Does a cloud have a choice, to rain or not to rain? Does a bird have a choice to sing or not? Or it's all one flawless movement of IS?

Have a good look in nature, where is doer? Is there an orchestrator, a puppet master that moves it all?

Is there a driver of life? Or it's all nice stories? Are stories driving life or it's what the movement manifests as?

Write a full report from your nature trip. If no park around, having a look through an open window will do. Feel the wind and have fun :)

Much love.

Ghazni

Mar 28

Hi Ilona

Your question; "how does it feel to see this?"

It feels as if something new is there to be explored.

It feels as if the self may really be an illusion if examined closely.  as a result the process of examination has deepened.

"What is the I that needs to see through? Another idea?"

The same idea. the same self/I which is under examination.

"What is here without ideas? what is underneath all thinking? Does thinking make this happen? Or it is all happening with and without thinking?I mean sensations,sounds, view,smells,touch,taste sensations?"

Here is my  body lying peacefully In bed. here is silence underneath all thinking. everything is happening without thinking and despite thinking. there are different types of sensations and sounds etc occurring without any effort on my part.

"What is not on automatic? What is it that you are actually in control of? In actuality not in ideas?"

Everything is automatic. I am in control of nothing. I am only a passive observer.

As for your instruction of journey into nature. I am not good at sitting in a park or anywhere without doing anything or talking. I do go for a walk almost everyday but it is usually absent-mindedly. however I will report to you on this issue latter.

Thanks.

Ilona

Mar 29

Hi Ghazni.

I see that process is going well. :)

You say:

Everything is automatic .I am in control of nothing. I am only a passive observer.

No, you are not observer. There is no observer. There is no a witness. All there is is observing and witnessing happening, same way as there is no breather, you are not breather, it's happening by itself. When attention goes on observing, it appears that you are doing that, but what is true in actuality?

There is no passive or active observer, but a process. Have a look, right now, is there a gap between you and what is being seen?

I'm looking forward to your report form nature. And it's good to break routine sometimes. Of course, you can do exercise while moving, but try what I suggested. Sit still and watch how all moves.

:)

Sending love.

Ghazni

Mar 30

Hi Ilona

I am happy over your remarks that the process is going well. Be it so. thank you.

However It is difficult for me to digest the idea that there is no observer either active or passive because under this formula there would be killing but no killer, suiciding but no suicider and so on. in such a situation it would be difficult to fix responsibility for any action because there is no actor. this is a kind of  fatalism.

As regarding nature work I have started going to the nearby hills. I will report to you as soon as i am able to say something meaningful.

Please excuse me for skipping those of your questions about which I am not clear.

Regards.

Ghazni

Apr 2

Hi Ilona

hope you are alright. not heard from you. I am paying short visits to the hills. I sit silently and watch things for an hour or so. things are interesting. in the beginning it is difficult to sit but latter it becomes difficult to end the sitting. I would  not mind longer sittings, if you advise so, but at the moment it is not feasible because of a particular medical condition.

I notice many things happening. clouds. raining. wind. birds. at one level everything seems automatic. on another level everything is the result of a cause. in inanimate nature physical causes produce results. in living nature individual motives are at the back of things. it may be hunger, survival, seeking pleasure, avoiding pain etc.

What I need to know is whether separate individual living/non-living beings exist or are they also figments of Imagination like the desperate self.

Regards.

Ilona

Apr 2

I'm very well, thank you, just was a bit caught up in busy last few days..

on another level everything is the result of a cause.

All is interdependent. Nothing exists or acts on it's own.

You see that, good to notice.

All is a cause and effect of all. Look, is this body part of it? Part of life happening? Is this

Breathing something you do or it's just happening like everything else in nature?

Can anything be or act outside of flow of life?

in inanimate nature physical causes produce results.in living nature individual motives are at the back of things.

Let's look at individual motives, are they yours or it's life happening?

it may be hunger, survival, seeking pleasure, avoiding pain etc.

Are you the one that decides when this organism is hungry, if it's alive or not, if it's seeking one and avoiding another?

Or it's just like nature- movement of life, natural flow of events, one after another. Including thoughts about events and feelings about those thoughts. Sensing, feeling and story telling.

What I need to know is whether separate individual living/non-living beings exist or are they also figments of Imagination like the desperate self.

Being is a verb.

Sending love.

Ghazni

Apr 3

Hi Ilona,                                                                       

l feel that all the assertions made in your email  are true. however your answer to question about the existence or non-existence of seperate things does not satisfy me. you simply say that being  is verb. being also mean existence and existent things.

Another thing which is a source of confusion to me is that if the principle of no doer is accepted, there would be no responsibility. since there is only killing without a killer so there can not be any criminal. I remember the rise of the same confusion when J.krishnamurti and osho and others denied the existence of good and evil.

Kindly do throw some light on the issue.

Highest regards.

Ilona

What exists is a good question. In which way everything exist? Does anything exist not dependently on something else? Do imagined characters exist?

Can you define in your own words what is real?

Another thing which is a source of confusion to me is that if the principle of no doer is accepted there would be no responsibility.

What are you responsible for? What is your responsibility right now?

We are not talking here about accepting an idea. We are looking at what is actually going in in experience. When you feel responsible, have a look, what is there exactly. What makes it so. How does it work?

What makes one thing good and another thing bad, evil? What is that judges? Is this judge always right?

Sorry, I won't give answers for you, these are your questions to ask, not mine. You alone have to answer them for yourself. So I give you a few more questions that may be helpful to ask.

Write what feels true to you.

Much love.

Ghazni 

Apr 6

hi ilona

Thank you for the great trouble you are taking in guiding me and many others on this path of truth.

"In which way everything exist? Does anything exist not dependently on some thing else?"

it is clear everything happens interdependently. the world exists as an infinite web of cause and effect.

"Do Imagined characters exist?"

Imagined characters do not exist, these are things of fiction especially of old time religion and literature.

"Can  you define in your own words what is real?"

To me real means something that can be verified by the five sense organs of seeing, tasting, smelling, touching and hearing. real is also that which can be proved through the scientific method.

"What are you responsible for?what is your responsibility right now"?

My responsibility right now is to get as much focussed as possible on the illusion of self.

"We are not talking here about  accepting an idea.we are looking at what is actually taking place in experience.when you feel responsible have a look,what is there exactly.

What makes it so. how does it really work?"

It works as a process. mutual actions and reactions. inherent energy and movement in each and everything.

"What makes one thing good and another thing bad,evil.?what is that judges? Is this judge always right"?

Convention,religion,morality etc make things good or bad. the collective and the individual mind judges. the judge is seldom right, mostly dysfunctional.

Your questions are like energy drinks. they have brought me to the verge. one powerful kick and i will be in the deep blind well of illusion.

Regards.

Ghazni

Apr 9

Hi ilona

I am waiting. Is this coldness part of the zen stick. it seems I am ready to take the step.

Where is the gate please?

Respects.

Ilona 

Apr 9

Is there a gate to cross?

Is there an I-entity that needs to cross it?

What do you find in experience?

:)

Ghazni

Apr 9

I have looked Inside and outside my body. i could not find any I-entity or self-entity. what was it than? Just a misconception ruling my entire life?

And what you mean. There is no gate. then what about the narrow gate mentioned in the scriptures. and what about your promise that a guide takes ones hand and get the seeker pass through. was all that metaphor/figures of speech? :)

Ilona

Apr 9

I have looked Inside and outside my body. i could not find any I-entity or self-entity.what was it than? Just a misconception ruling my entire life?

Yes, an unquestioned assumption, that's all. When questioned it becomes clear that it's just a belief.

And what you mean. There is no gate.

Seeing that there is no gate is realisation that changes perception, the way that life is seen is different.

then what about the narrow gate mentioned in the scriptures. and what about your promise that a guide takes ones hand and get the seeker pass through.was all that metaphor/figures of speech? :)

It's all about seeing what is actually happening, without assumptions of what This should be.

How does it feel, can you say that Gateless gate was crossed?

Ghazni 

Apr 9

Hi ilona,  
"How does it feel, can you say that gateless gate was crossed"?

It feels as when one throws a long-carried burden from his shoulders. I felt a clear relief. relief not in the sense that any problem was solved but in the sense that problems lost there graveness. suffering was not felt as suffering but taken as daily business. there was a wave of a light euphoria like the one we feel in moments of finding something  new.

I would like to be careful and would not say categorically that the gateless gate was crossed. what I can say safely is that something  new did happen which changed my way of looking at things.

The most significant thing is that today I do not feel that desire for enlightenment which was my greatest desire until yesterday. I am at peace with what is here and now.

However a feeling of concern does exist in my mind about the sustainability of the change.

Respects.

Ilona

Apr 11

Wow, great to hear!

The shift can be very subtle, it may look that it does not change much, but it changes everything. Give it a few days to settle..

Are there any doubts?

Much love.

Ghazni

Apr 11

Thank you for the validation of my ,,experience. I did not expect it. I can not believe it can happen so easily, so painlessly. I thought it would be a Castaneda style earth-shaking event. I had decided to see the gate at all costs. I conveyed the decision to you that i was ready to take the step and asked you whereabouts of the gate. your reply to my that message was surprisingly simple yet revealing.

Your question,as to" are there any doubts".

Yes. there is a doubt that it may be a trick of the mind. a wish fulfilment.

There is also a worry. the dropping of the suffering  is already leading me to the dropping of the struggle for enlightenment. if it happens it will make me absolutely unemployed. I am already retired from service. this shift, if it happens, will end my mental occupations as well. this scenario may lead to other problems. I am already understanding UGs concept of Calamity.:)

Great regards.

Ilona

Apr 12

Thank you for the validation of my ,,experience.I did not expect it.I can not believe it can happen so easily,so painlessly.I thought it would be a Castaneda style earth-shaking event.I had decided to see the gate at all costs.I conveyed the decision to you that i was ready to take the step and asked you whereabouts of the gate.your reply to my that message was surprisingly simple yet revealing.

Great!

Your question, as to" are there any doubts".

Yes. there is a doubt that it may be a trick of the mind.a wish fulfilment.

Keep looking in experience, is it true. What is incomplete right now? Doubt is a friend, it shows areas that are still in need of looking, embrace it. Don't take anything as another belief, keep checking what is actually happening.

There is also a worry. the dropping of the suffering  is already leading me to the dropping of the struggle for enlightenment.

Nice. Struggle is not necessary. One can live relaxed and content. :)

if it happens it will make me absolutely unemployed.

If it happens- a thought projection about future, have a look, is there future, or just now?

How is future experienced? Is there other time then this present moment?

Fear comes with thoughts about what if scenarios, it's a habit to think this way. But does mind still need to create imaginary problems so it can solve it? Is it useful, practical or waste of energy?

I am already retired from service.this shift ,if it happens,will end my mental occupations as well.this scenario may lead to other problems.I am already understanding UGs concept of Calamity.:)

Hehe. Well, there never was was a self, so how anything can be different? All that needs to be done gets done, it does not depend on thinking that you did it or thinking that there is no you to do it. Life does not end here. Unnecessary struggle starts to fall.

It's all about surrender to what is already happening. If relaxation is happening, enjoy it.

Sending love

Ghazni

Apr 13

Hi Ilona,

Your advice "keep looking in experience, is it true? what is incomplete right now? doubt is a friend that shows areas which are still in need of looking."

Nothing is incomplete right now. Everything is perfectly alright. But that is mainly because I am looking consciously. the moment I am automatic the old illusory self  returns with its usual habits. thoughts like i am losing friends day by day. i am becoming alone. who will come to my help if I am in some trouble etc. I must admit however that the span of presence has increased. I see these thoughts as soon as they appear and seeing weakens their grip.

"How is future experienced? is there other time then this present?"

I agree fully that that there is no other time then this present moment and future can be experienced only as the present. but the mind is still creating imaginary problems to create suffering and waste time.

I am consciously trying to surrender to what is happening. Let us see when it happens beyond any doubt.

Regards.

Ghazni 

Apr 16

Hi ilona,

I am waiting for your reply.should I keep waiting?

Regards.

Ilona 

Apr 16

Hi Ghazni

sorry for delay with answer and thank you for reminding of yourself.

what is not on automatic?

is looking consciously something that you do or it's too something that happens?

have a look, what exactly are problems? what do they stick to? is there an owner of problem? are there problems right now or it's all in thinking about future?

what do you find?

sending love

Ghazni

Apr 17

Hi Ilona,

Your question, " what is not on automatic?

Is looking consciously something that you do or it too is something that happens"?

when something habitual like smoking or reading a newspaper is done, it is automatic with no effort. but when something is done against the habit like resisting the smoking habit or reading something unhabitual, is difficult and requires an effort of will. we see In our daily life that some of the things are easy and are done effortlessly. but there are other things which are difficult and require wilful attention to do it. Now I am almost sure there is no I-entity or Me-entity that does the effort. But then what or who is behind the effort. is it the universal life force? universal intelligence? or what?

" have a look what exactly are problems? what do they stick to? Is there an owner of problem? Are there problems right now or it is all in thinking about the future?

What do you find"?

While looking at experience and facts of life, I find that problems are mental habits. But these habits are so strong that even a thousand Alexenders are helpless before them. but I do admit, nevertheless, that one gourdjeef or any of his type is enough for them. I attach the same value to the LU guides.

The illusory I is the only non-existent owner of the problems. circular thinking, particularly the permenant fixation of mind on future is the root of it.

Respects.

Ilona

Apr 19

Ok, yes, there is effort happening for example in physical exercise. But is it something you do or it arises naturally in given situations as part of what is happening, interdependently of everything else?

What is there that effort is happening to? What is here that effort is happening as?

Try this: look up at right top point of your screen. Squint your eyes, and tense eyebrows. Look hard at the corner. Do this intensely for a minute. This requires effort, right, but what is behind it? Is effort helping to see clearer?

we see In our daily life that some of the things are easy and are done effortlessly.but there are other things which are difficult and require wilful attention to do it.Now I am almost sure there is no I-entity or Me-entity that does the effort. But then what or who is behind the effort.is it the universal life force?universal intelligence?or what?

You don't need to answer this question, just look and see what is behind it.

While looking at experience and facts of life,I find that problems are mental habits. But these habits are so strong that even a thousand Alexenders are helpless before them.

Habits form and fall. It's not that you are keeping it going, nor it's up to you if you like them or not. You don't need to change habits, just watch them. Body does it's thing, runs on the programming. Without trying to change, be aware of habitual behaviour and thinking, see how it arises and passes away. Then look, what is that habits stick to?

The illusory I is the only non-existent owner of the problems.

May I mention, non existing owner of non existing problems. A mind game. Create and imagine possible what if scenarios, forgetting it's not real. But on examination, it's always clear, problems do not exist.

It can be fun, but, is this useful? Do you need to keep thinking about future? Does it change anything if you do or not?

circular thinking, particularly the permenant fixation of mind on future is the root of it.

Find the future!

Sending love.

Ghazni

Apr 21

Hi ilona,

As for the effort during exercise,I can see there is no I in it but the natural flow of circumstances makes it possible. as recommended, I looked at the right corner of the screen with squinted eyes. the effort did not help to see clearly. rather it blurred the vision.

As advised, I do practice the watching of (mental and physical) habits.

Now your instruction to" find the future". It will never be found by anyone. It is mirage. whenever it comes, it comes as present.

By the way, ilona, i feel I have seen through the illusion of self. I also feel that i have crossed the gateless gate.

All credit goes to you. thank you so much.

Ilona

Apr 21

That is great! I'm delighted for you. Big smile !!

Here are a few more questions for you, take your time. Please write in detail, I'm looking forward to read your answers

Much love.

Ghazni 

Apr 24 

Hi Ilona,

I am  happy that the movement of life has caused me to stumble upon your website Liberationunleashed.com . I feel lucky enough to have been guided by you successfully to see through the illusion of self and to cross the gateless gate. here are answers to the questions no 1 and 2.

Question no.1

" is there a separate entity, self,me, I,at all, anywhere,in any way, shape or form?was there ever?"

There is no such separate entity as self, I, me at all, anywhere, in anyway, shape or form. there never was such an entity at all. this is an illusion created by language and social conditioning. grammar has been given abnormal importance which resulted in turning simple linguistic tools like i and me in to an entity .

 no.2.

"Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is,when it starts and how it works from your own experience.Describe it fully as you see it now."

The thought that the human body or organism is controlled by a special entity called the self, I or me is an illusion. it starts in the early childhood when a baby is given a name and is trained by the society as a distinct individual. during the social training however, some of the concepts like the name of the person or the pronoun I or me is over-emphsized. this over-emphasis leads to the emergence of the fantastic idea called self which is then generally accepted and treated as a reality in its own right.

The idea of self as a separate entity is the main cause of suffering  and conflict in the world. the emotions of jealousy, competition, national, religious, ethnic and the numerous other social divisions are mainly caused and propelled by the illusory self.

Looking at it now it seems very strange and unfortunate that i like most of  humanity despite all our claims to wisdom have not been able to see this immediate and nearest enemy. for me personally its a sigh of relief and a new beginning.

Best regards.

Question no -3

"How does it feel to see this?what is the difference from before you started this dialogue? please report from the past few days."

It feels like I have taken a definite step forward. At least I stand clear on a fundamental issue of personal psychology. There is much less fear now. There is greater courage now to surrender to the moment. I am more present now. regrets about the wastage of past opportunities, the feelings of not being good enough, the fear of poverty and many similar emotions have lost there tightness. I have become more clear and focussed mentally. there are countless references to the falseness of the self in almost every religion, philosophy and literature of the world. almost everybody tries to get rid of it but few succeed. the LU method of direct pointing seems to me the most scientific.I still wonder how I came to see the illusion of self. I was absolutely hopeless about it.

Question no-4

"What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?"

I can not say what was the last bit. what I know is that a clear conclusion suddenly landed on the mind . A sort of internal voice asked me to stop unnecessary arguments. the same voice kind of thing said that enough is enough and that I should not prolong a false belief simply because I have cherished it for so long.

Regards.

Ilona

Apr 26 

Hi Ghazni,

Thank you for clear answers! Just letting you know that I'm reading what you write. And I see that the line was crossed..

Send  the last 2 answers please :)

Much love.

Ghazni 

Apr 27

Question NO-5

"Can you talk about decision,intention,free will,choice and control?what makes things happen?how does it work? Give examples from your experience."

Decision, intention, free will, choice and control may be key words in everyday administration, business and politics. but these are useless thoughts when seen in the perspective of current experience. things happen on their own as a result of interaction amongst a number of causes and effects. things are clear about the major things like birth and death, circulation of blood, breathing etc. there automatic character cannot be doubted. But when it comes to small things like the selection of particular cloth or colour ,eating in this or that hotel, walking on this track or that track etc, doubt comes in. for example the decision to take a bath now or after three hours or even three days seems to be made by me.

There is also a religious tradition which says that even a leaf can not move without the order of God.many people believe in it.I can't believe in it but can not no reject it either.

Question NO-6

"Anything to add?"

The thoughts of incompleteness, fear of disease, death and many other negative things do visit my mind regularly. the only entertainment I offer them is constant watching. will they ever stop coming.?

Regards.

Ghazni 

Apr 27 

Thank you for the encouraging message. I have submitted the last two answers. may the truth dawn on us.

Regards.

Ilona

Apr 28 

Thank you so much for answers. You sound clear on 1-4, but number 5 tells meet, that we can look deeper. 

But when it comes to small things like the selection of particular cloth or color ,eating in this or that hotel,walking on this track or that track etc,doubt comes in.for example the decision to take a bath now or after three hours or even three days seems to be made by me.

It seems, yes. In thought story about it.

Have two nice fruit with you. Put them in front, see how decision happens in action. Catch the me, that decides. Just reach out for one fruit and take a bite. As it's happening, watch the hand, watch thoughts, see how it works. Is it possible, that body does what it does, regardless of what  thoughts say?

There is also a religious tradition which says that even a leaf can not move without the order of God.

I see what it says. Yes, I get that. Have a look:  Is there a gap between you and god? And if you replace word god with synonyms: life, reality, here now, this.. Does it make sense?

Here now, is anything giving orders for this to be happening? Or all is just happening as one movement of god?

The thoughts of incompleteness,fear of disease, death and many other negative things  do visit my mind regularly.the only entertainment I offer them is constant watching.will they ever stop coming.?

When all is welcomed, none is a problem. When negative thoughts shows up, what is it showing up to? Are you the thinker of thoughts? Are you the feeler of sensations? Is there a receiver of experience or just experience?

Sending love.

Ghazni 

May 1

Hi ilona,

Sorry for delay. I was stuck somewhere.

I did the two fruit exercise. I waited for five minutes thinking which fruit to take first. suddenly my hand reached to the fruit which was less sweet. the sweeter fruit I took latter. the decision was clearly made on the basis of experience that if I took the sweeter fruit first, the less sweet fruit will lose its attraction. your question as to" is it possible, that the body does what it does, regardless of what the thoughts say." I would respond  that it is not only possible but it is usually the case. my decision to take the less sweet fruit first  clearly came from experience which is the domain of body/mind not thoughts.

I would like to mention another experience.as a matter of decision I avoid fatty foods. but on occasions, like today, my hand just reached to the thing my body demanded despite opposition from thoughts.

" is there a gap between you and god."

there seems to be no gap. The human body/mind is an integral part of the over all movement of god.

It is all one movement. Experience does not show any internal or external doer except the over all life.

" Are you the thinker of thoughts"?

not at all. Thinking happens automatically. I am helpless about them. the same is the case with sensations. they happen on there own as a result of interplay among countless factors.

Regards

Ilona

May 2

Dear Ghazni.

Thank you for answers! Yes, I can see now that you see! :) and I'm very very happy for you. You know, this is a beginning of seeing and there is much more to explore.

How is the searching, is it still here, or search is over?

Is there anything else that we can look together or you are feeling confident, that you are good to continue on your own?

I would like to invite you to join LU community on Facebook, for continuing friendship and support, there are many people there, that went and going through the same, so it helps sometimes to share and read what happens after.

I usually put the conversations on my blog, as they are helping others, you never know who reads and what impact your journey can make for some other seekers. So if you don't mind, I would like to share our conversation too. I can change your name, if you prefer, or use an initial, it's up to you. Then I can get other guides to see if they have any questions to you too..

Have a lovely day!

Sending love.

Ghazni 

Hi Ilona,

Thank you very much. you are doing great job.

Searching has stopped. it seems to have no utility for me after seeing the gateless gate. what I am interested in now is to consolidate what I have already seen and to explore the field further.

For the time being I feel confident enough to continue on my own. but please allow me to revert to you if and when needed. doubts do come, negative episodes are still here. but a kind of alertness has also increased which immediately focusses on them and in most cases succeeds in running them out.

I appreciate your idea of  joining the LU community on Facebook.

You can put our conversation on your blog. there is no issue with name also. 

Thank you .

Fritz: Unbelievable That It Was Ever Unseen!

Fritz
Dear Ilona,

what a great work you are doing! This is really moving and fills my heart with awe and gratitude. Thank you so much!
I read quite a bit of the texts on LU and your and Elena's blogs and the Gatecrasher-book. I thought maybe I can push through just by reading the dialogs of others and it actually triggered a process in me.
I hope very much you find time to read this.

My "story":
My name is Fritz.
The facts are pretty similar to several other stories of "old practitioners". For more then 3 decades I have been doing meditation on a daily basis. Vajrayana buddhism. The first several years "hardcore", focussed on my Guru (Tibetan style practices 100% with several retreats - groups as well as solitary - plus living as hermit for some years). "I gave my life to it" as they say. I was also teaching meditation off and on and still run a little meditation group. I continued practice and some teaching also in the later years where I was involved in family and business, but practice was reduced to simple sitting with a Mahamudra orientation. In the last 10 years I was also looking around in the nondual scene (e.g. Adyashanti, Byron Katie and Tim Freke. Also Jed McKenna).
My experiences were typical: state-experiences that come and go. A big one and small ones, or no special experiences at all for long stretches of time of course.
Something was being cultivated but at the same time stuckness too in a way.

So your website and your approach came like a (nice) shock to me. Like too good to be true :-)
The image of the fist breaking through, on the "Friedrich"-blog-entry, really "spoke" me.
YES!
And the approach of bringing love to the world by propagating seeing through the illusion the way LU is doing - almost unbelievable!

I do get and feel every word you say and the understanding of there being no separate self is clear at moments and then - without a cut - suddenly thoughts and emotions especially that of fear come to the foreground. They might appear like a wind blowing through a room but they might also fill that room, so that it is stuffed and almost suffocating all of a sudden. It is understood that I keep looking and neither ward them off nor dive into a more peaceful state - but still...stuck again.
I did some "Deep Looking" according to your instructions by myself but guidance would be wonderful and seems necessary at this point.
The taste of freedom has been here for instances lately and I really want to break through now.

I read that you are not taking on new people, so if that is valid, please advise me how to go on from here. It could also be in German but I understand that they are a bit short of guides there. In general I have to confess that I would feel a bit more comfortable with e-mail than a forum.

Lots of love,

Fritz

Ilona
Hi Fritz,

Thank you very much for beautiful letter.

We can have a chat and deep looking session if you like, it would be my pleasure.
All I need form you is commitment to this process and full honesty. It's best to stop reading any books on the subject and watching videos. Just use your own head and answer from experience. It's good if you write at least once a day, so mind gets focused and we keep the momentum going.

I invite you to find the stuckness and examine it. What is it made of? What is that is holding you there? What should be different? What are you hoping that will change? What if all is going on as it should? Is stuckness something that stops the flow of life? Or is it part of flow?

Please answer these questions in full, one by one, as you see it.

Sending love

Fritz
Dear Ilona,

thank you so much for taking me on, that is just wonderful!
Tons of gratefulness "over here" :-)
I understand the rules and conditions.

You know, there is a weird thing happening: since I wrote to you (after reading LU texts and dialogues for 4 weeks or so) it seems that something similar to what you call “falling" has started.
Of course the question comes up if this is real.
By falling I mean, falling more into my body (which if looked back at from this position, was not online for many many years), I mean the physical presence of limbs, warmth, energy-flowing. And falling into what is in front and around me: perceptions, things happening, other people with their “thing” going on (I was facing a challenge in my intimate relationship for the last 3 days). And falling into presence and being open to it instead of focussing so much on anticipating the next thought or possible danger, so that “presence” became a stale concept.

Thank you for your great questions:

I invite you to find the stuckness and examine it.

Stuckness in the way I meant it in my previous mail is not here any more.
There are sudden but somewhat lighter attacks of fear but upon being seen and welcomed they gently go almost as fast as they came.
"I do not know if I can trust that” is my automatic thought-reaction, but who is here to do that trusting or being trusted anyhow? That also comes and goes.
These automatic thought-reactions seem to have the job of creating and sustaining someone "in control”.

What is it made of?

Exactly. What is it made of? No idea. Empty space.
Looking back (cause it is not existing right now) I would say it looks like a net of knots of thoughts triggering further knots of thoughts or something. Making up a directors room with a great switchboard with the job to protect the “self” (which it is making up in the same move)

What is that is holding you there?

Right now, nothing.

What should be different?

Again, nothing.

What are you hoping that will change?

Also nothing in terms of the bits and pieces it is made up of (perceptions like vision, sound etc. thoughts, hopes and fears, hangups etc.)
But stuckness as a massive wave of these bits and pieces coming at me, that is being believed in, like it used to feel it for years - I really hope that this will drop away or - from my present reality - not come back.

What if all is going on as it should?

There is no “should” I guess.

Is stuckness something that stops the flow of life? Or is it part of flow?

Okay, now I get it, it is also just another thought and therefore part of the flow. Wow.

But seeing that seems to transmute it in a way, doesn’t it? But that is just speculation.

Thanks again for connecting and going through this with me. Very very precious!
I still cannot really believe it in a way :-)

With love,

Fritz

...............................
Dear Ilona,

continuing from yesterday…

Okay, I said all these things about stuckness or the absence of it.
But I am still going back and forth in a way, between a habitual self and a no-self.
The latter meaning seeing this body-mind and all its perceptions and thoughts as an experience that just happens. Like life living or awareness being aware or reality realizing itself.

And then again: a thought appearing that has some sort of power (emotion, fear) and right away there is a "me" having this thought.
On being seen both of them might dissolve together and go away. Or stay for a while.
And then again.

Kind of funny that I said above "I am going back and forth" since nobody is going anywhere here.
It is perspectives that change and there is no owner of these perspectives. Clearly.
Still they change.
But - why shouldn't they?
The wind blows and then the wind does not blow and then it blows again.

It feels that some things got clearer over writing these few lines.
I wonder if this might stick or I just talk rubbish...

Thank you.

We have 3 hours time difference so in case you write late I might be sleeping already. In this case please forgive me for not answering the same day.

Love,

Ilona
Feb 2
Hi Fritz,

Thank you for emails.

The "me" does not disappear, it's just seen that concept "me" is not you. Yes, some thoughts trigger emotions. Then emotions trigger more thoughts. But is this happening on automatic, or are you doing this?

The wind blows and then the wind does not blow and then it blows again.

Exactly.

It feels that some things got clearer over writing these few lines.
I wonder if this might stick or I just talk rubbish...

Yes, keep writing all this stuff down, it definitely gets mind focussed and clarify what is not clear yet.

Fritz
Feb 2

Dear Ilona,

thank you for your answer and further questions. Great really :-)

I will put your text in italic-bold instead of writing into the older text:

The "me" does not disappear, it's just seen that concept "me" is not you.

Right. Thank you. I am with you, but somehow I have to build up the trust to keep that view in order to let myself completely fall into it.
It seems that this is happening, so your encouragement is more then helpful.
I have to watch out with language, I realize. Language is obviously constructed in a way that keeps us in the conventional view which presupposes a separate self. So when I say, "I have to build up trust to let myself fall” then this is the language of the concept of “me”. Since there is no actual me, the concept falls and with this more falling is invited.
The more I look the more I see that something has probably shifted.

Yes, some thoughts trigger emotions. Then emotions trigger more thoughts. But is this happening on automatic, or are you doing this?

No I am not doing this at all, that’s for sure. It is just happening. Funny enough there seems to be a sort of choice though, whether I keep looking (and embracing) or if “I" and "my world" are just eaten up by what this feedback-loop of emotions and thoughts is presenting.
So who has the choice, I ask myself.
Is it enough to say that choice just is? Why not, is my guess.

Yes, keep writing all this stuff down, it definitely gets mind focussed and clarify what is not clear yet.

Yes, thank you. Focussing and clarifying, that seems to be what all of this is about. Great.

This is interesting. Perhaps it's been see already?

Perhaps.
A sort of orienting is happening now instead of just getting in automatic defense-mode if something comes up: there is a stale smell on the one side and the smell of freedom on the other. I can distinguish that.

When you look back, was there aha moment of "crossing the line" or all was smooth and unnoticeable?

I guess I do this crossing in steps since getting deeper into the LU texts.
The most noticeable aha moment was at writing down what I see (or what is “true”) and if there was a crossing it was at the "deep looking” (as you recommend it) in which I faced fear in a friendly way and conversed with it. Yes, that was crucial. Cause seeing fear as a threat makes the "self" over here contract which triggers more fear-thoughts. Breaking through that loop was, and still is when it comes up, crucial.
The other important thing was to start to write to you at all and in doing so, putting down in writing the status quo. This goes with what you called focussing and clarifying in the above paragraph.

Ha, exactly.
Nothing there, just thoughts about thoughts about thoughts…

Exactly! Wow. Too simple, too good…
We can’t even say that awareness is there, since it obviously is not there or can not be detected or singled out in any way.
It sure is sort of the backdrop or light behind the whole going-on-of-it-all. So it might fuel experience but can not be experienced itself.

Fun isn't it?

Right :-)
And it is so good to see that and actually believe it. Instead of believing in being “a practitioner” who does what actually? Practice.
It is probably a trap of traditional spiritual paths, that the keeping at it year after year could get one into some kind of hamster-wheel which is an obstacle to seeing the simplicity and fun part of IT. Even though the teachings might say (often in some encrypted way) that this is what the whole "path" is about.

Shoulds and shouldn'ts are like thought viruses that make it appear that something is wrong.

"Thought viruses”, great.
Should and shouldn’ts, right an wrong, thoughts, thoughts.
I guess the attitude towards those is also a loving one of seeing, seeing, honoring and thanking and letting go, right?

Best wishes,

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Feb 3

Dear Ilona,

here is a little video of just two minutes of a - believe it or not - stand-up comedy, that has great depth and fits surprisingly well to what you said about how to “work" with fear:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=An18wQ3asMw

I am coming back again and again over the day to this feeling of IT happening instead of a “me" doing it.
I still have to remind myself but it is becoming more and more familiar.
It is actually retraining how to perceive and go about life. Another vantage point in a way with no person at the stirring wheel.
Relaxing into this does seem to take a little practice…

Thank you for what you said on personal pronouns - so we do not need to stupidly propagate a new type of political correct speaking. Great.
They are just useful in conversation as you said somewhere.

I just realized that it obviously was your birthday yesterday. So with a little delay - Happy Birthday to you dear Ilona :-)

Love,

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Feb 4

Dear Ilona,

in yesterdays mail I described a feeling of IT happening and less of a me doing it.
Today it was more me trying to do it than IT happening.
Even though this is a terribly stupid sentence, since IT is all there is in any case, whether I do my thing on it or not.
But still - there was more of a struggle. Which produces a sense of a struggler and of course suggests that there actually is one.
At the same time: all of this happening automatically without a manager or boss.
Then its back to the fun-part.
Until it seems gone again. Meaning people, things, problems and all the rest of it filling the felt universe.
And then an opening appearing out of the blue again.
Maybe the lesson from this is that the habitual tendencies do not go away so easily. But also that this is no reason to panic since it is just a game.
I mean the struggling taking over and then dissolving again.

Be well, "see you" tomorrow,

Fritz

Ilona
Feb 5

Hi Fritz,

Thank you for birthday wishes :)

Have a look at a house plant or a tree outside. Is life happening to this form or as this form?
Is it different with this body? Is life happening to this organism? To this mind or as this mind? Is there a gap between life and you? Is there a you that is not part of life? Is there anything that is not part of flow, movement of totality?

Focus on the sense of being, feel the sensations in the heart area.

Are you doing being? Are you beating heart?
Is being something that can be switched of or on? Are you in charge of keeping this on or it's effortless?

Is anything at all that is not just happening by itself? If so, what are you managing exactly?

here are some questions for you to play with. Will be looking forward to answers
Much love.

Fritz
Feb 5

Thank you for your mail dear Ilona,

I will sit and also sleep with your questions and answer tomorrow, hoping that this is okay with you. I am not so well today and need some rest.

With love, Fritz

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Feb 6

Dear Ilona,

Have a look at a house plant or a tree outside. Is life happening to this form or as this form?
Is it different with this body? Is life happening to this organism? To this mind or as this mind?

All the answers are “as” of course. The same for my body, my perceptions, thoughts, feelings and so on.
No separation between life happening and those forms and experiences.

Is there a gap between life and you?

NO GAP.
This is the weirdest thing, that our habitual thinking not only believes in a gap between life and “me" from early on but also has this tendency to recreate it again and again.

Is there a you that is not part of life? Is there anything that is not part of flow, movement of totality?

No no no. There is just the movement of totality.

Focus on the sense of being, feel the sensations in the heart area.

Just being. The focussing, the sensing, the being, the heart beating - all are.

Are you doing being? Are you beating heart?

No doer. Just all being so. Heart beating, eyes looking and perceiving, breath flowing...

Is being something that can be switched of or on?

No switches attached and no switcher round here.

Are you in charge of keeping this on or it's effortless?

No one in charge. And for sure not me. Therefore the keeping it on is effortless.
So all effort I make is part of the effortless flow? Hilarious!

How beautiful your questions! Thank you.
My answers seem very short but a lot of thought and looking went into them.

With love,

Fritz

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Feb 7
Hi Ilona,

today was inspired by your question about the effortless flow and my making great effort within this effortless flow.
And how strange this is.
It is especially valid for my situation of having a combination of chronic fatigue and insomnia since many years and that probably because of trying to hard or making too much effort. Too much effort to sustain life. Too much effort in order just to be.
To be the perfect husband, lover, father, practitioner, entrepreneur, ecologist - what have you, plus somehow the effort of trying to sustain the beingness of the world as it is  or rather as I want it to be or at least to bend it a little bit that way.
I am aware of this in a way since many years but never really gave up the struggle.
Now with this clear approach of nobody being here to struggle something seems to start shifting.
I am very curious to see…

Love, Fritz

Ilona
Feb 8

Great work! Yes, being is on by default and there is nothing you need to do or can do to change that. The struggle to survive- unless you are hungry every day and have no food- is a myth.

When you look deeper, you see, that images about possible futures, what if scenarios, problem creating-solving takes huge amount of energy. It appears that something is incomplete, that something's needs managing, fixing, but every moment, when you look at what is happening now, all is well.

Find what is not on automatic, what requires a special effort of your part, what is not just happening by itself.

Then see if there is still need for the struggle.

Sending love.

Fritz
Feb 8

Dear Ilona,

Thank you for putting me on the spot so beautifully.
And no, I can not find anything that is not on automatic or requires special effort on my part.
Nothing. Not the subject (awareness) and not the objects (things, worlds, thoughts and all the rest of it)
This is not new to me but I faced it never so directly with “no way out” in a way - and, and this is where the fun-part comes in again, absolutely no need to find a way out. A way out of what? Out of outness? Or inness for that matter? Awesome :-)

I let this sink in right now… deeper and deeper…

With love,

Fritz

PS
starting from coming Tuesday I will be travelling for a week. Mainly to a fair where I will be pretty occupied.
I will still try to write, but I might also not be able for a day or two. I hope this is okay.

PPS
what I said in PS goes of course very well with what we are exchanging right now.
A sales fair - a typical future scenario in this case special edition: with a press conference ;-)
So a lot of images arising of stuff that is all happening by itself - beautiful.
And if stressful thoughts come up then this is what effortlessness is presenting me with...

Ilona
Feb 9

A way out of what? Out of outness? Or inness for that matter? Awesome :-)

Haha, awesome, isn't it!
(Nodding my head and smiling )

I let this sink in right now… deeper and deeper…

Mmmm, yeah..
How does it feel to see this?

Fritz
Feb 9

It feels liberating! :-)

The weird thing is that at the same time I feel stressed. The seeing of these upheavals is very calm though. Strange.
I am very vulnerable to personal and job related challenges.
Is this my world falling apart or just cause I slept worse then usual last night? No idea.
Of course I know that there is no “my world” that could fall apart.
Everything is already apart and in its most perfect place at the same time.
Something is going on in my system it seems…
Like I am approaching a very tight space and an opening at the same time.

Love, Fritz

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Feb 10

Hi Ilona,

today was more a bit like in a flow most of the time.
Not constant and not always conscious but like I could rely on it, that it is just there anyhow. Or even that it is all there is there.
It flows. It is. It moves. If I worry it is also part of it and dropping that could also be part of it.
Funny enough things (in work etc.) worked out quite well in that “mode".

I am glad you are there, having an eye on me :-)
and that helps me to "stay tuned" so to say.

With love,

Fritz

Ilona
Feb 10

Sounds great! Looks like something is definitely shifting.
Can you say with a big fat YES, that it's clear- a separate entity I is an illusion?
Was there ever an I in charge?

Yeah, I'm here, keeping an eye in you. :) write more!

Sending love

Fritz
Feb 11

I am travelling now.

No separate I or entity that's for sure.
And NO there was never such a separate I in charge.

Ilona
Feb 11

Wonderful!

So what's the same and what is different now to compare to before this conversation?
What was that pushed you over? Can you describe what happened?

Have fun on your travels!
Sending love.

Fritz
Feb 11

Below you see what I wrote a few minutes ago:

Sorry this thing (new iPhone) sends whenever it likes it seems without me being in control so to say.
That is a case of too much nobody-in-control though ;-)

Yes I also think there is a shift happening. And watching or being with it while travelling is interesting.

All new people, buildings, landscapes, media, movement, temperatures happening... changing.
All just so...
I do take a unique perspective on all of that but there is no separate I to be in control.
In a way it is all as much "I" as I am "I".

I do not really know what pushed me over as you call it.
It is like a journey from here to here. With the second "here" being like one coherent being, or being-ness. Home. Alive and unfathomable. Endlessly wide and very close and intimate at the same time.

What is the same and what's different to before our conversation?

There is what I just called intimacy, love is another term that comes to mind. Another might be relaxation. And they all differ to what was clearly separate, clearly not-me or "on the other side" before. The me-world is made up of tons of not-mes which surround it. And each one of this me to not-me relationships is of of course necessarily a problem.
OMG :-)
And this is going on all over the place. And quite unnecessarily so.

The writing all this down was definitely very useful. It is like poking wholes in a world-view where separation seems natural and a "given" until the separations fall away - how wonderful.

I look at people trying to see if they can see that. With each smile I see, I suspect an opening :-)

Therefore the work of LU is so wonderful.
I am all gratefulness and hope that I can pass this on too.

Lots of love,

Fritz

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Feb 14
Dear Ilona,

Sorry for not writing earlier, but I'm still at trade fair and that is very demanding.

But I enjoy it once seen never unseen :-)
It is very clear and even "useful" anyway mumbles masses of people there.


It is very clear and even "useful" in a way among these masses of people at the fair. But of course the where and what and other conditions do not play any real role in this at all.

I am very grateful to you and send you love,

Fritz

Ilona
Feb 15

Beautiful, Fritz, spot on- a journey from here to here, home was never left. Yes, writing is great tool at this point to clarify all that is needed. There will be lots of orphaned beliefs that were attached to this imagined I taken for real. There is much more to explore, but this is a definite start of living free.

I'm delighted for you!

Sorry for not writing earlier, but I'm still at the trade fair and that is very demanding.

It must be interesting to watch all unfold while in the crowds of people. It's a whole show just for you! Haha
I hope you are having great time in this ride.

Are you ready for 'final questions'? We ask these questions everyone, I love reading answers, all are describing same in different ways.

Fritz
Feb 16

Yes ready for the final questions.
Thank you soooo much,

Ilona
Feb

Awesome!!

Fritz

Hi Ilona, here they come,

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

No "me" at all in any way or form and there never was. There is just what is and not what is not, like an "I".

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

"Me" seems to be like a perspective that turned into a "subject" that experiences itself as a separate entity by means or as a result of cultural convention.
It starts as soon as cultural conventionality kicks in and can be processed by the psyche. That must be around the age of two or three or so and then gets solidified year after year by most of what we hear and say/think, plus all social interaction/relationships.
The way it works is like an optical illusion. The unseparated is seen/experienced as separated, singled out things and entities. Those we seem to recognize as familiar or natural givens even though they are just thoughts the content of which is made up by the culture and the surrounding we happen to live in.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

Unbelievable that it was ever unseen!
Liberating, surprising, entering the flow, actually living being, great...
The surprising part being that I have read about it hundreds of times, I have intellectually "understood" it - at least enough to phrase something similar - a long time ago and even "taught" something along those lines to others, but - I had not really SEEN it or BEEN it.
Hilarious :-)
The past few days are like embarking on a new journey.
No captain anywhere and the boat being part of the sea itself. All waves happening exactly the way they do :)
Even if pain arises it is exactly where it belongs and there is no need to fight the basic suchness of the ongoing of it all.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

Seeing that I am not my thoughts or emotions and that those don't need to be kept under control by a "me" by any name. And that where the seemingly solid entity of "me" used to be, there is an open and welcoming space which allows all thoughts and emotions to arise, be seen and go. If solidification appears on the horizon, dialoging with emotions can help for love to just be again.
I can not pinpoint exactly what pushed me over. It was a silent opening that took me a few days to realize and trust.
So the actual pushing over happened when there was enough trust to allow the seeing that IT actually IS and it is not just another interpretation of what "reality" is by a "me".

5)can you talk about decision, intention, free will, choice and control? What makes things happen? How does it work? Give examples from experience

Decisions and intentions are also happening like breathing and heart beating: as a part of the general flow. I - a breathing, blood and thoughts pumping body of a certain type belonging to the family of mammals, write this sentence which is made up of words and letters by fingertips touching an iPad screen - a wondrous feast of interconnected miracles without end :-)
And how it works?
No idea, probably it works because IT works.

6) Anything to add?

I would not discourage meditation since it seems to help to relax the believing in thoughts over time. But at the same time it is clear that meditation is not IT but potentially (and I guess in most cases) reifies and solidifies the meditator as a separate entity which is totally counter-productive of course.
So pointing out by someone who sees seems essential.

And finally: there is no staying from love in the whole universe and there never was, even though this does not look so to the reasoning mind :-)

Dearest Ilona,

endlessly grateful I send you lots of LOVE!
This was a wonderful ride,

Fritz :-)

Ilona

Wonderful! You have a great way to put all in words, when it's seen clearly, they flow, isn't it. Thank you for love, it's is felt here. I'm delighted to see that the journey of seeking ended in this perfect way. Yes, the first days it feels so odd, unreal, disorienting. It's a whole new adventure ahead. And it's only a beginning! Everything feels so fresh and new. More to drop, more beliefs will be seen through, it will only go deeper into one Direction- freedom.

Would you be ok with publishing our conversation on my blog, it may be helpful for someone. I can use whatever name you prefer. And after it's on, I can invite you to join LU groups, to meet other friends.

It was my pleasure to assist you..
Much love.

Fritz

Thanks again Ilona,

for your love and this feedback.
It would be wonderful if this would be helpful for others.
Yes, it's okay to publish this and to call me Fritz is also okay.
Nothing to hide plus I am used to it by now ;-)
Names also change their meaning or the flavour they have to them, don't you find?

Lots of love!


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1.Marble Clothes sculpture by Alex Seton
2.Nike of Samothrace.