Fritz: Unbelievable That It Was Ever Unseen!

Fritz
Dear Ilona,

what a great work you are doing! This is really moving and fills my heart with awe and gratitude. Thank you so much!
I read quite a bit of the texts on LU and your and Elena's blogs and the Gatecrasher-book. I thought maybe I can push through just by reading the dialogs of others and it actually triggered a process in me.
I hope very much you find time to read this.

My "story":
My name is Fritz.
The facts are pretty similar to several other stories of "old practitioners". For more then 3 decades I have been doing meditation on a daily basis. Vajrayana buddhism. The first several years "hardcore", focussed on my Guru (Tibetan style practices 100% with several retreats - groups as well as solitary - plus living as hermit for some years). "I gave my life to it" as they say. I was also teaching meditation off and on and still run a little meditation group. I continued practice and some teaching also in the later years where I was involved in family and business, but practice was reduced to simple sitting with a Mahamudra orientation. In the last 10 years I was also looking around in the nondual scene (e.g. Adyashanti, Byron Katie and Tim Freke. Also Jed McKenna).
My experiences were typical: state-experiences that come and go. A big one and small ones, or no special experiences at all for long stretches of time of course.
Something was being cultivated but at the same time stuckness too in a way.

So your website and your approach came like a (nice) shock to me. Like too good to be true :-)
The image of the fist breaking through, on the "Friedrich"-blog-entry, really "spoke" me.
YES!
And the approach of bringing love to the world by propagating seeing through the illusion the way LU is doing - almost unbelievable!

I do get and feel every word you say and the understanding of there being no separate self is clear at moments and then - without a cut - suddenly thoughts and emotions especially that of fear come to the foreground. They might appear like a wind blowing through a room but they might also fill that room, so that it is stuffed and almost suffocating all of a sudden. It is understood that I keep looking and neither ward them off nor dive into a more peaceful state - but still...stuck again.
I did some "Deep Looking" according to your instructions by myself but guidance would be wonderful and seems necessary at this point.
The taste of freedom has been here for instances lately and I really want to break through now.

I read that you are not taking on new people, so if that is valid, please advise me how to go on from here. It could also be in German but I understand that they are a bit short of guides there. In general I have to confess that I would feel a bit more comfortable with e-mail than a forum.

Lots of love,

Fritz

Ilona
Hi Fritz,

Thank you very much for beautiful letter.

We can have a chat and deep looking session if you like, it would be my pleasure.
All I need form you is commitment to this process and full honesty. It's best to stop reading any books on the subject and watching videos. Just use your own head and answer from experience. It's good if you write at least once a day, so mind gets focused and we keep the momentum going.

I invite you to find the stuckness and examine it. What is it made of? What is that is holding you there? What should be different? What are you hoping that will change? What if all is going on as it should? Is stuckness something that stops the flow of life? Or is it part of flow?

Please answer these questions in full, one by one, as you see it.

Sending love

Fritz
Dear Ilona,

thank you so much for taking me on, that is just wonderful!
Tons of gratefulness "over here" :-)
I understand the rules and conditions.

You know, there is a weird thing happening: since I wrote to you (after reading LU texts and dialogues for 4 weeks or so) it seems that something similar to what you call “falling" has started.
Of course the question comes up if this is real.
By falling I mean, falling more into my body (which if looked back at from this position, was not online for many many years), I mean the physical presence of limbs, warmth, energy-flowing. And falling into what is in front and around me: perceptions, things happening, other people with their “thing” going on (I was facing a challenge in my intimate relationship for the last 3 days). And falling into presence and being open to it instead of focussing so much on anticipating the next thought or possible danger, so that “presence” became a stale concept.

Thank you for your great questions:

I invite you to find the stuckness and examine it.

Stuckness in the way I meant it in my previous mail is not here any more.
There are sudden but somewhat lighter attacks of fear but upon being seen and welcomed they gently go almost as fast as they came.
"I do not know if I can trust that” is my automatic thought-reaction, but who is here to do that trusting or being trusted anyhow? That also comes and goes.
These automatic thought-reactions seem to have the job of creating and sustaining someone "in control”.

What is it made of?

Exactly. What is it made of? No idea. Empty space.
Looking back (cause it is not existing right now) I would say it looks like a net of knots of thoughts triggering further knots of thoughts or something. Making up a directors room with a great switchboard with the job to protect the “self” (which it is making up in the same move)

What is that is holding you there?

Right now, nothing.

What should be different?

Again, nothing.

What are you hoping that will change?

Also nothing in terms of the bits and pieces it is made up of (perceptions like vision, sound etc. thoughts, hopes and fears, hangups etc.)
But stuckness as a massive wave of these bits and pieces coming at me, that is being believed in, like it used to feel it for years - I really hope that this will drop away or - from my present reality - not come back.

What if all is going on as it should?

There is no “should” I guess.

Is stuckness something that stops the flow of life? Or is it part of flow?

Okay, now I get it, it is also just another thought and therefore part of the flow. Wow.

But seeing that seems to transmute it in a way, doesn’t it? But that is just speculation.

Thanks again for connecting and going through this with me. Very very precious!
I still cannot really believe it in a way :-)

With love,

Fritz

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Dear Ilona,

continuing from yesterday…

Okay, I said all these things about stuckness or the absence of it.
But I am still going back and forth in a way, between a habitual self and a no-self.
The latter meaning seeing this body-mind and all its perceptions and thoughts as an experience that just happens. Like life living or awareness being aware or reality realizing itself.

And then again: a thought appearing that has some sort of power (emotion, fear) and right away there is a "me" having this thought.
On being seen both of them might dissolve together and go away. Or stay for a while.
And then again.

Kind of funny that I said above "I am going back and forth" since nobody is going anywhere here.
It is perspectives that change and there is no owner of these perspectives. Clearly.
Still they change.
But - why shouldn't they?
The wind blows and then the wind does not blow and then it blows again.

It feels that some things got clearer over writing these few lines.
I wonder if this might stick or I just talk rubbish...

Thank you.

We have 3 hours time difference so in case you write late I might be sleeping already. In this case please forgive me for not answering the same day.

Love,

Ilona
Feb 2
Hi Fritz,

Thank you for emails.

The "me" does not disappear, it's just seen that concept "me" is not you. Yes, some thoughts trigger emotions. Then emotions trigger more thoughts. But is this happening on automatic, or are you doing this?

The wind blows and then the wind does not blow and then it blows again.

Exactly.

It feels that some things got clearer over writing these few lines.
I wonder if this might stick or I just talk rubbish...

Yes, keep writing all this stuff down, it definitely gets mind focussed and clarify what is not clear yet.

Fritz
Feb 2

Dear Ilona,

thank you for your answer and further questions. Great really :-)

I will put your text in italic-bold instead of writing into the older text:

The "me" does not disappear, it's just seen that concept "me" is not you.

Right. Thank you. I am with you, but somehow I have to build up the trust to keep that view in order to let myself completely fall into it.
It seems that this is happening, so your encouragement is more then helpful.
I have to watch out with language, I realize. Language is obviously constructed in a way that keeps us in the conventional view which presupposes a separate self. So when I say, "I have to build up trust to let myself fall” then this is the language of the concept of “me”. Since there is no actual me, the concept falls and with this more falling is invited.
The more I look the more I see that something has probably shifted.

Yes, some thoughts trigger emotions. Then emotions trigger more thoughts. But is this happening on automatic, or are you doing this?

No I am not doing this at all, that’s for sure. It is just happening. Funny enough there seems to be a sort of choice though, whether I keep looking (and embracing) or if “I" and "my world" are just eaten up by what this feedback-loop of emotions and thoughts is presenting.
So who has the choice, I ask myself.
Is it enough to say that choice just is? Why not, is my guess.

Yes, keep writing all this stuff down, it definitely gets mind focussed and clarify what is not clear yet.

Yes, thank you. Focussing and clarifying, that seems to be what all of this is about. Great.

This is interesting. Perhaps it's been see already?

Perhaps.
A sort of orienting is happening now instead of just getting in automatic defense-mode if something comes up: there is a stale smell on the one side and the smell of freedom on the other. I can distinguish that.

When you look back, was there aha moment of "crossing the line" or all was smooth and unnoticeable?

I guess I do this crossing in steps since getting deeper into the LU texts.
The most noticeable aha moment was at writing down what I see (or what is “true”) and if there was a crossing it was at the "deep looking” (as you recommend it) in which I faced fear in a friendly way and conversed with it. Yes, that was crucial. Cause seeing fear as a threat makes the "self" over here contract which triggers more fear-thoughts. Breaking through that loop was, and still is when it comes up, crucial.
The other important thing was to start to write to you at all and in doing so, putting down in writing the status quo. This goes with what you called focussing and clarifying in the above paragraph.

Ha, exactly.
Nothing there, just thoughts about thoughts about thoughts…

Exactly! Wow. Too simple, too good…
We can’t even say that awareness is there, since it obviously is not there or can not be detected or singled out in any way.
It sure is sort of the backdrop or light behind the whole going-on-of-it-all. So it might fuel experience but can not be experienced itself.

Fun isn't it?

Right :-)
And it is so good to see that and actually believe it. Instead of believing in being “a practitioner” who does what actually? Practice.
It is probably a trap of traditional spiritual paths, that the keeping at it year after year could get one into some kind of hamster-wheel which is an obstacle to seeing the simplicity and fun part of IT. Even though the teachings might say (often in some encrypted way) that this is what the whole "path" is about.

Shoulds and shouldn'ts are like thought viruses that make it appear that something is wrong.

"Thought viruses”, great.
Should and shouldn’ts, right an wrong, thoughts, thoughts.
I guess the attitude towards those is also a loving one of seeing, seeing, honoring and thanking and letting go, right?

Best wishes,

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Feb 3

Dear Ilona,

here is a little video of just two minutes of a - believe it or not - stand-up comedy, that has great depth and fits surprisingly well to what you said about how to “work" with fear:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=An18wQ3asMw

I am coming back again and again over the day to this feeling of IT happening instead of a “me" doing it.
I still have to remind myself but it is becoming more and more familiar.
It is actually retraining how to perceive and go about life. Another vantage point in a way with no person at the stirring wheel.
Relaxing into this does seem to take a little practice…

Thank you for what you said on personal pronouns - so we do not need to stupidly propagate a new type of political correct speaking. Great.
They are just useful in conversation as you said somewhere.

I just realized that it obviously was your birthday yesterday. So with a little delay - Happy Birthday to you dear Ilona :-)

Love,

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Feb 4

Dear Ilona,

in yesterdays mail I described a feeling of IT happening and less of a me doing it.
Today it was more me trying to do it than IT happening.
Even though this is a terribly stupid sentence, since IT is all there is in any case, whether I do my thing on it or not.
But still - there was more of a struggle. Which produces a sense of a struggler and of course suggests that there actually is one.
At the same time: all of this happening automatically without a manager or boss.
Then its back to the fun-part.
Until it seems gone again. Meaning people, things, problems and all the rest of it filling the felt universe.
And then an opening appearing out of the blue again.
Maybe the lesson from this is that the habitual tendencies do not go away so easily. But also that this is no reason to panic since it is just a game.
I mean the struggling taking over and then dissolving again.

Be well, "see you" tomorrow,

Fritz

Ilona
Feb 5

Hi Fritz,

Thank you for birthday wishes :)

Have a look at a house plant or a tree outside. Is life happening to this form or as this form?
Is it different with this body? Is life happening to this organism? To this mind or as this mind? Is there a gap between life and you? Is there a you that is not part of life? Is there anything that is not part of flow, movement of totality?

Focus on the sense of being, feel the sensations in the heart area.

Are you doing being? Are you beating heart?
Is being something that can be switched of or on? Are you in charge of keeping this on or it's effortless?

Is anything at all that is not just happening by itself? If so, what are you managing exactly?

here are some questions for you to play with. Will be looking forward to answers
Much love.

Fritz
Feb 5

Thank you for your mail dear Ilona,

I will sit and also sleep with your questions and answer tomorrow, hoping that this is okay with you. I am not so well today and need some rest.

With love, Fritz

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Feb 6

Dear Ilona,

Have a look at a house plant or a tree outside. Is life happening to this form or as this form?
Is it different with this body? Is life happening to this organism? To this mind or as this mind?

All the answers are “as” of course. The same for my body, my perceptions, thoughts, feelings and so on.
No separation between life happening and those forms and experiences.

Is there a gap between life and you?

NO GAP.
This is the weirdest thing, that our habitual thinking not only believes in a gap between life and “me" from early on but also has this tendency to recreate it again and again.

Is there a you that is not part of life? Is there anything that is not part of flow, movement of totality?

No no no. There is just the movement of totality.

Focus on the sense of being, feel the sensations in the heart area.

Just being. The focussing, the sensing, the being, the heart beating - all are.

Are you doing being? Are you beating heart?

No doer. Just all being so. Heart beating, eyes looking and perceiving, breath flowing...

Is being something that can be switched of or on?

No switches attached and no switcher round here.

Are you in charge of keeping this on or it's effortless?

No one in charge. And for sure not me. Therefore the keeping it on is effortless.
So all effort I make is part of the effortless flow? Hilarious!

How beautiful your questions! Thank you.
My answers seem very short but a lot of thought and looking went into them.

With love,

Fritz

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Feb 7
Hi Ilona,

today was inspired by your question about the effortless flow and my making great effort within this effortless flow.
And how strange this is.
It is especially valid for my situation of having a combination of chronic fatigue and insomnia since many years and that probably because of trying to hard or making too much effort. Too much effort to sustain life. Too much effort in order just to be.
To be the perfect husband, lover, father, practitioner, entrepreneur, ecologist - what have you, plus somehow the effort of trying to sustain the beingness of the world as it is  or rather as I want it to be or at least to bend it a little bit that way.
I am aware of this in a way since many years but never really gave up the struggle.
Now with this clear approach of nobody being here to struggle something seems to start shifting.
I am very curious to see…

Love, Fritz

Ilona
Feb 8

Great work! Yes, being is on by default and there is nothing you need to do or can do to change that. The struggle to survive- unless you are hungry every day and have no food- is a myth.

When you look deeper, you see, that images about possible futures, what if scenarios, problem creating-solving takes huge amount of energy. It appears that something is incomplete, that something's needs managing, fixing, but every moment, when you look at what is happening now, all is well.

Find what is not on automatic, what requires a special effort of your part, what is not just happening by itself.

Then see if there is still need for the struggle.

Sending love.

Fritz
Feb 8

Dear Ilona,

Thank you for putting me on the spot so beautifully.
And no, I can not find anything that is not on automatic or requires special effort on my part.
Nothing. Not the subject (awareness) and not the objects (things, worlds, thoughts and all the rest of it)
This is not new to me but I faced it never so directly with “no way out” in a way - and, and this is where the fun-part comes in again, absolutely no need to find a way out. A way out of what? Out of outness? Or inness for that matter? Awesome :-)

I let this sink in right now… deeper and deeper…

With love,

Fritz

PS
starting from coming Tuesday I will be travelling for a week. Mainly to a fair where I will be pretty occupied.
I will still try to write, but I might also not be able for a day or two. I hope this is okay.

PPS
what I said in PS goes of course very well with what we are exchanging right now.
A sales fair - a typical future scenario in this case special edition: with a press conference ;-)
So a lot of images arising of stuff that is all happening by itself - beautiful.
And if stressful thoughts come up then this is what effortlessness is presenting me with...

Ilona
Feb 9

A way out of what? Out of outness? Or inness for that matter? Awesome :-)

Haha, awesome, isn't it!
(Nodding my head and smiling )

I let this sink in right now… deeper and deeper…

Mmmm, yeah..
How does it feel to see this?

Fritz
Feb 9

It feels liberating! :-)

The weird thing is that at the same time I feel stressed. The seeing of these upheavals is very calm though. Strange.
I am very vulnerable to personal and job related challenges.
Is this my world falling apart or just cause I slept worse then usual last night? No idea.
Of course I know that there is no “my world” that could fall apart.
Everything is already apart and in its most perfect place at the same time.
Something is going on in my system it seems…
Like I am approaching a very tight space and an opening at the same time.

Love, Fritz

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Feb 10

Hi Ilona,

today was more a bit like in a flow most of the time.
Not constant and not always conscious but like I could rely on it, that it is just there anyhow. Or even that it is all there is there.
It flows. It is. It moves. If I worry it is also part of it and dropping that could also be part of it.
Funny enough things (in work etc.) worked out quite well in that “mode".

I am glad you are there, having an eye on me :-)
and that helps me to "stay tuned" so to say.

With love,

Fritz

Ilona
Feb 10

Sounds great! Looks like something is definitely shifting.
Can you say with a big fat YES, that it's clear- a separate entity I is an illusion?
Was there ever an I in charge?

Yeah, I'm here, keeping an eye in you. :) write more!

Sending love

Fritz
Feb 11

I am travelling now.

No separate I or entity that's for sure.
And NO there was never such a separate I in charge.

Ilona
Feb 11

Wonderful!

So what's the same and what is different now to compare to before this conversation?
What was that pushed you over? Can you describe what happened?

Have fun on your travels!
Sending love.

Fritz
Feb 11

Below you see what I wrote a few minutes ago:

Sorry this thing (new iPhone) sends whenever it likes it seems without me being in control so to say.
That is a case of too much nobody-in-control though ;-)

Yes I also think there is a shift happening. And watching or being with it while travelling is interesting.

All new people, buildings, landscapes, media, movement, temperatures happening... changing.
All just so...
I do take a unique perspective on all of that but there is no separate I to be in control.
In a way it is all as much "I" as I am "I".

I do not really know what pushed me over as you call it.
It is like a journey from here to here. With the second "here" being like one coherent being, or being-ness. Home. Alive and unfathomable. Endlessly wide and very close and intimate at the same time.

What is the same and what's different to before our conversation?

There is what I just called intimacy, love is another term that comes to mind. Another might be relaxation. And they all differ to what was clearly separate, clearly not-me or "on the other side" before. The me-world is made up of tons of not-mes which surround it. And each one of this me to not-me relationships is of of course necessarily a problem.
OMG :-)
And this is going on all over the place. And quite unnecessarily so.

The writing all this down was definitely very useful. It is like poking wholes in a world-view where separation seems natural and a "given" until the separations fall away - how wonderful.

I look at people trying to see if they can see that. With each smile I see, I suspect an opening :-)

Therefore the work of LU is so wonderful.
I am all gratefulness and hope that I can pass this on too.

Lots of love,

Fritz

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Feb 14
Dear Ilona,

Sorry for not writing earlier, but I'm still at trade fair and that is very demanding.

But I enjoy it once seen never unseen :-)
It is very clear and even "useful" anyway mumbles masses of people there.


It is very clear and even "useful" in a way among these masses of people at the fair. But of course the where and what and other conditions do not play any real role in this at all.

I am very grateful to you and send you love,

Fritz

Ilona
Feb 15

Beautiful, Fritz, spot on- a journey from here to here, home was never left. Yes, writing is great tool at this point to clarify all that is needed. There will be lots of orphaned beliefs that were attached to this imagined I taken for real. There is much more to explore, but this is a definite start of living free.

I'm delighted for you!

Sorry for not writing earlier, but I'm still at the trade fair and that is very demanding.

It must be interesting to watch all unfold while in the crowds of people. It's a whole show just for you! Haha
I hope you are having great time in this ride.

Are you ready for 'final questions'? We ask these questions everyone, I love reading answers, all are describing same in different ways.

Fritz
Feb 16

Yes ready for the final questions.
Thank you soooo much,

Ilona
Feb

Awesome!!

Fritz

Hi Ilona, here they come,

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

No "me" at all in any way or form and there never was. There is just what is and not what is not, like an "I".

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

"Me" seems to be like a perspective that turned into a "subject" that experiences itself as a separate entity by means or as a result of cultural convention.
It starts as soon as cultural conventionality kicks in and can be processed by the psyche. That must be around the age of two or three or so and then gets solidified year after year by most of what we hear and say/think, plus all social interaction/relationships.
The way it works is like an optical illusion. The unseparated is seen/experienced as separated, singled out things and entities. Those we seem to recognize as familiar or natural givens even though they are just thoughts the content of which is made up by the culture and the surrounding we happen to live in.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

Unbelievable that it was ever unseen!
Liberating, surprising, entering the flow, actually living being, great...
The surprising part being that I have read about it hundreds of times, I have intellectually "understood" it - at least enough to phrase something similar - a long time ago and even "taught" something along those lines to others, but - I had not really SEEN it or BEEN it.
Hilarious :-)
The past few days are like embarking on a new journey.
No captain anywhere and the boat being part of the sea itself. All waves happening exactly the way they do :)
Even if pain arises it is exactly where it belongs and there is no need to fight the basic suchness of the ongoing of it all.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

Seeing that I am not my thoughts or emotions and that those don't need to be kept under control by a "me" by any name. And that where the seemingly solid entity of "me" used to be, there is an open and welcoming space which allows all thoughts and emotions to arise, be seen and go. If solidification appears on the horizon, dialoging with emotions can help for love to just be again.
I can not pinpoint exactly what pushed me over. It was a silent opening that took me a few days to realize and trust.
So the actual pushing over happened when there was enough trust to allow the seeing that IT actually IS and it is not just another interpretation of what "reality" is by a "me".

5)can you talk about decision, intention, free will, choice and control? What makes things happen? How does it work? Give examples from experience

Decisions and intentions are also happening like breathing and heart beating: as a part of the general flow. I - a breathing, blood and thoughts pumping body of a certain type belonging to the family of mammals, write this sentence which is made up of words and letters by fingertips touching an iPad screen - a wondrous feast of interconnected miracles without end :-)
And how it works?
No idea, probably it works because IT works.

6) Anything to add?

I would not discourage meditation since it seems to help to relax the believing in thoughts over time. But at the same time it is clear that meditation is not IT but potentially (and I guess in most cases) reifies and solidifies the meditator as a separate entity which is totally counter-productive of course.
So pointing out by someone who sees seems essential.

And finally: there is no staying from love in the whole universe and there never was, even though this does not look so to the reasoning mind :-)

Dearest Ilona,

endlessly grateful I send you lots of LOVE!
This was a wonderful ride,

Fritz :-)

Ilona

Wonderful! You have a great way to put all in words, when it's seen clearly, they flow, isn't it. Thank you for love, it's is felt here. I'm delighted to see that the journey of seeking ended in this perfect way. Yes, the first days it feels so odd, unreal, disorienting. It's a whole new adventure ahead. And it's only a beginning! Everything feels so fresh and new. More to drop, more beliefs will be seen through, it will only go deeper into one Direction- freedom.

Would you be ok with publishing our conversation on my blog, it may be helpful for someone. I can use whatever name you prefer. And after it's on, I can invite you to join LU groups, to meet other friends.

It was my pleasure to assist you..
Much love.

Fritz

Thanks again Ilona,

for your love and this feedback.
It would be wonderful if this would be helpful for others.
Yes, it's okay to publish this and to call me Fritz is also okay.
Nothing to hide plus I am used to it by now ;-)
Names also change their meaning or the flavour they have to them, don't you find?

Lots of love!


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1.Marble Clothes sculpture by Alex Seton
2.Nike of Samothrace.