There Is No Me, There Is No You

Jon:
Hello. I have been reading the "Gateless Gatecrashers", and find it very beneficial and motivating. I am humbled by your desire and efforts to help others.

On an intellectual level, I fully understand there is no "I"; this is just a label applied to the group of aggregates that I see in the mirror. On an experiential level, I have searched and not been able to find "I".

Having said that, I just took a shower. I stood under the shower head, and the warm water flowed onto my back and it felt wonderful. As it did, I thought to myself "who is feeling this wonderful feeling?" As I said before, on an intellectual level, I know there is no "I". But, there is something feeling the feeling, or else the feeling would not register. I am missing something. Or, I am fighting something.

If you have time, I would love to hear your thoughts and receive any help you are willing to give.

Thank you.

Ilona:
Hi jon.

Thanks for reaching out :)
There is this assumption that there is a who. There isn't. When shower is on, next time, notice, it's only experience happening. See- the experience, experienced and experiencer is one! No gap. No who in there. Just feel it.

I is a label that is part of language for communication purposes only. In the feeling there is no I. It's impersonal. Test it. With anything.

Hear sound and see- sound is being heard. Smell something and see there is no smeller, just action/ perception + label "I smell".

You won't find an I because there is no I. Have a look. Literally.

Write what you've got.

Much love.

Jon:
I was in the shower, and you are right. It is feeling, it is experience. There is no feeler, though. Just feeling.

The same as a spot on my back that is sore. "I'm in pain" was what I thought, but as I dig deeper into this there is no "I", just the feeling that is labelled pain. Just a feeling, no feeler. I can even dismiss the label of pain and see the feeling only, and its affects are not as harsh as before.

OK. I feel like I'm having a battle. I fully understand no "I" intellectually - I have for almost two years now. This was the first small victory and has allowed me to build to the point of today. Well, build to the point of yesterday - you gave me another victory with the shower analysis and upon looking at what you said which was proven true. Thank you!

However, the battle is not over as the next thing my imaginary ego throws at me is "who turned on the shower". If there is no who - as has been proven with the feeling of the warm water from the shower head - how did the shower get turned on? How does a door get opened?

I hope these questions are not annoying you. I know this is "I" clinging to the last bits of the battle, and I feel that I am so close. Many thanks for your time and your help. I am most appreciative.


Ilona:
Hi Jon.

Yes, there is no feeler.
Same way there is no doer.

Any action happening is experienced as its happening then thoughts come up and claim doership.

Lift your left hand right up now- above your head.

Watch it as it is happening.
Is there a doer in that? How did it lift up? Does is need to be the doer- I - for it to happen?


If you are around small babies or animals, how do they operate? Is there a doer inside them? Why would an adult human be different. Belief in doer does not affect the action itself.


Is it you doing walking or walking is happening? Test it. Thoughts come up about zillions of things but none of them are required for walking.

Watch closely every action and see if it's true.

Let me know what comes up.


Jon:
"Watch closely every action and see if it's true. Let me know what comes up."

I am, I will. And I will write and email back to you my findings. One question - instead of approaching this from what doesn't exist "me, I, you", can I approach this from what does exist? Granted, I fully realise that I am still labelling it - but is it just consciousness, or flow (as I see it called)?

Many thanks and much love to you.

Ilona:
Yes, approach from what is, what is obvious. :))

Jon:
You are amazing! Well, if there was a you - but the sentiment hopefully isn't lost!

There is no doer. No doer making salad. No doer walking up the stairs. No doer driving the car. Just making, just walking, just driving. More importantly, and something I never thought to look at before though it is obvious, there is no doer in "others" - no "I" in others, no "them". Just thoughts and actions. The person who was rude to me today wasn't "him" - there was just thought, just action. Hard to stay mad at "someone" that doesn't exist.

OK, thoughts come up and "I" try to cling to them, to own them. But there is no ownership, there is no me, there is no I. Only thoughts. Only walking. Brilliant.

Still, a question. Where does a thought or action originate? For instance, I'm in the shower and it is time to apply shampoo - where does that come from, because I know there is no me to think and decide that. Is it as simple as saying the brain is part of the body like the arm, and the thought/action to shampoo comes from the brain? Likewise, the person that honked at me today because I didn't immediately go when the light turned green. Where did the thought and action to honk originate? That brain? As, there is no "him".

This is exciting.

Much appreciation and love.

Ilona:
Ahahaha! You are seeing it! Right there :)

Good question- where does the impulse for action come from? It's all a bit like an itch and a scratch, human organic computer is reacting to environment and the choice is made spontaneously. Brain is such an amazing piece of equipment.

You may find this video helpful especially the last 6 minutes. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Biv_8xjj8E&feature=youtube_gdata_player

It's one hour long but very interesting. :)
Watch it.

Much love!
And I'm delighted to see that you are crossing the gate nice and easy.

Jon:
I will watch that video today, thank you!

I had an epiphany - finally realised internally that thoughts arise and I label them as "I thought this", "I made this happen"...no matter how many times you read that is really what is happening and understand it intellectually (as I have for a long time), until you realise it internally you are just chasing the wind. We all think "we think", and that we make this stuff happen. When in reality it is simple - it happens, and then the label "I did it" is applied afterwards but we are conned and conditioned to thinking that it was there before...and we did it (of course, we don't exist).

It makes perfect sense to me, but I don't know if I am writing it clearly enough for you to understand what I am saying?

One question haunts me - and the answer may be simply "it doesn't matter". The question is - why was the self created? And how was it created? The brain? Evolution? I can't shake the feeling that I want to know this, even though it is not necessary to my liberation so to speak. What are your thoughts on the origins, and on why it happened to begin with?

Much love and appreciation.

Jon:
Just to clarify my last email to you, I asked you " One question haunts me - and the answer may be simply "it doesn't matter". The question is - why was the self created? And how was it created? The brain? Evolution? I can't shake the feeling that I want to know this, even though it is not necessary to my liberation so to speak. What are your thoughts on the origins, and on why it happened to begin with?"

When I say "why was the self created", I know there is no self. What I mean is why did that thought "I" ever arise in the first place? Why, how. Again...evolution, the brain, or simply it doesn't matter? But why did it happen, how did it happen...why and how did it arise in what we label "humans". Just curious of your "thoughts" on the matter.

Thanks!


Ilona:
Dear jon. I'm delighted to hear about you inner seeing of the truth of no self.
It must be such a relief.

How 'self' gets created? Mostly because of the language. When we learn to speak we say I and we get carried away with it.

You may read my blog on the language thing. http://markedeternal.blogspot.com/2012/01/trick-of-language.html?m=1

Also you will find some answers in the video. :)

Sending love.
We'll speak tomorrow.

Jon:
Wonderful video! I found "me" talking to Marcus the last 10 minutes, saying there is no you thinking...only thinking!!! There is no you deciding...only deciding!!!

Oddly enough, I read this comment a few days ago on a topic not related to liberation, but never more pertinent and spot on:

"Ever thought about how you come to have thoughts? In order to have a thought a slew of neurons have to fire in your brain. But you can't control which ones fire, because in order to do that you'd have to think about it and make a plan. But you can't do that without your neurons firing... It would seem that your neurons are doing their own thing, firing away like mad, and the end result is you... thinking your in control."

I thought this (or some variant of this in your own words) could help you with future people seeking liberation.

Ilona, I can't express my gratitude enough. Thank you for your efforts, your caring, your friendship.


I've seen it mentioned several times that there is "clean up work" and more to do after you have passed through the gate that really isn't there. Can you elaborate on that?


Ilona:
The neuron thing is great! There is another good video on neurons that I can recommend- athene's theory of everything. Check it out on YouTube. I loved it.

There is a fb aftercare group, do you have an account?

But before I can invite you there we have a confirmation process where other my friends at LU check if all went trough completely.

I'll ask you to answer few questions and I'll put our conversation on my blog, with or without your name, up to you. Then once you get confirmed I'll invite you to unleashed :)




So here are the questions :
1) Is there a 'me', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?
2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works.
3) How does it feel to see this?
4) How would you describe it to somebody who has never heard about this illusion.
5) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

Looking forward to read your answers.

Much love.

Jon:
Wonderful! Here are the answers:


1.) There is no real me. There are thoughts, but thoughts cannot think. There is no "I" or "me" having these thoughts...just thoughts. There is no me walking or showering...just walking, just showering. There never has been a me. There is a body with its associated parts, but no owner of that body.


2.) The idea of a separate self is attached to thoughts as a component or label. For example, the hand is raised - in conjunction with my brain taking in stimuli and issuing the thought to raise the hand, there is a label of "my" put on the thought so it appears "I" am raising my hand. When in actuality, there is only raising...no "me" raising. This applies to everything - feeling, talking, walking, etc. In reality, everything just is. I am not a "me" in the universe, I am the universe.


3.) It is interesting to see this. I have known it intellectually for quite a while, but the attachment to "me" wanting to be a good person, a successful person prevented me from actually internalising and discovering it beyond just the intellectual level. It is liberating to finally be there.


4.) The tree does not have an owner that helps it tree. The bush does not have an owner that helps it bush. Everything just is, just does. Likewise, we don't have an owner that helps us live - there is just living. We have, however, created an illusion that there is an owner - a "me", an "I". But if you search for this "I", you cannot find it. What is "I"? Is it your hand, your arm, your brain? Point to it? You can't because it is none of those things. Is it a combination of all of those components? How can a combination of things that aren't "I" be "I"? They cannot. "I" is an illusion. "I" don't think - thoughts happen, and after they happen there is a label of "I" or "me" attached to them.


And, I would probably elaborate using the neuron explanation from my last email. :)


5.) When you and I discussed the warm water, and the feeling of the warm water on the skin. It prompted me to look deeper. When I had the epiphany that this applies to everyone, not just me - and the person who was rude to me was not a "he" at all. There was no separate "he" that was rude. There is no me, there is no you. Only being, only doing. The entire process of you answering my questions and having me investigate for myself.


Thank you! Let me know if you want more details or explanation, and where "I" go from here. And, you are free to use my first name, Jon, or J.D. which is what "I" am often referred to as.