Werner wrote to me in February, we talked a bit, there was a
break and then we talked some more. Here is the beginning and the end of our conversation.
Werner
Dear Ilona,
I read on your blog that you are not taking new people for
guiding, but I still feel drawn to get in touch with you directly. You have
been my main guide in my experiences with LU. After I discovered LU for real at
the end of last December, it was your “Start Here” blog post that I worked with
primarily. It turned out to be a highly reliable guide and built a lot of
trust.
Now I feel it would be helpful to confirm where I am at, and
get in touch with others who went through the process or are interested in it.
A bit about me:
I was a spiritual seeker for about 40 years. When searching
for answers to teenage problems I first looked in psychology. After reading
"Autobiography of a Yogi" the search started to become spiritual.
This lead to a long involvement with serious spiritual path. At some point that came to a
dead end, and the focus shifted to other spiritual teachings and teachers.
I downloaded the
Gateless Gatecrashers pdf in the middle of
last year, but at that time was more drawn to Nisargadatta, some of whose books
I found at the same time.
At the end of December I was looking for a book to read on a
trip and remembered the GG book. I looked at it again and checked out the LU
website, and suddenly felt very drawn to it. It felt like the logical next step.
Nisargadatta’s “Whatever you think yourself to be, you are not” resonated with
me, and LU looked like an approach to clarify exactly that in my own
experience.
Now the LU approach made so much sense. Highly specialized,
a laser-like focus on just this one aspect of being, without trying to sell a
whole life philosophy (or anything at all), without the need to quiet the mind
or fight it – all of this resonated so deeply and made me feel: yes, I want to
try that. Just the simplicity of it already felt liberating.
I came across your blog post "Start Here". The
steps you gave made sense and I liked that I could go through them by myself,
as I find it challenging to post personal matters on public forums. So I worked with your instructions for several
weeks, doing the steps as fully and honestly as I could, writing down whatever
came up for myself. In parallel I read the Gateless Gatecrashers book and some
additional blog posts of you and others.
I found it especially helpful to look at expectations about
liberation, enlightenment, waking up. In 40 years of spiritual search I had
collected a lot of them. Separating the seeing of the exclusionary nature of the
me-thought from all expectations of effects that would have was very very
important. It is brilliant that you address this so clearly.
Going through the steps has led to some significant
realizations and shifts.
I came to clearly see that everything mind considers to be
"me" really is just thoughts, feelings, and sensations. I could
clearly observe how an experience happens and then a thought arises and
attaches an "I" or "me" to the experience. I could also see
that there is awareness and a sense of being, but it can't be grasped by the
mind, can't be described by any labels. It is rather that thoughts and labels
get their life from being seen by it.
I also came to realize that seeing this illusion of me does
not magically resolve personality, mind,
coping mechanisms, survival strategies, habits, fears, etc. Some people seem to
experience bigger shifts in these areas than others, but these effects don't
mean anything about the seeing of the me-illusion itself.
There is much more to say, but I will try to put some of it
in my answers to the questions you usually ask people at the end of your
guiding.
1) Is there a separate 'me' 'I' 'self' , at all, anywhere,
in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?
I got to see that what is habitually taken as "me"
is really a bundle of thoughts, feelings, and sensations. When inspected
closely, there is no real entity in any of them.
There also is an aliveness, awareness, sense of being, that
is not graspable by thoughts and cannot adequately be described by any labels.
2) in the experience, is there an experiencer? Is it body
that experiences or is the body the experienced?
There is an experiencing, without being able to pinpoint
this experiencing to a tangible entity. The body is the source of certain
sensations, probably also thoughts and emotions, but it is not the body that is
aware of them, it's something intangible beyond the body.
3) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is,
when it starts and how it works.
Somehow most of us humans seem to be in some kind of trance,
mass hypnosis. We take thoughts, feelings, and sensations to be ourselves, even
though it can be clearly and easily seen that it is not true. I guess it is a
cultural thing, some kind of conditioning that is passed on from generation to
generation. And I guess, not being anything tangible at all, there is a
temptation and social pressure to identify with something tangible.
4) How does it feel to see this?
It feels different at different times. Sometimes it moves a
lot of energy. Sometimes there are doubts. Sometimes it feels like there is
some kind of emptiness, space underneath a layer of thought, feelings, sensations.
Even though it is a (more or less) subtle shift of
perception, sometimes the implications feel breathtaking, mindboggling,
immense.
Mind is still trying to control, holding on, resisting; and
also unwinding, adjusting, opening. It is still strong, a lot of attention
focused on it. There used to be the conviction that that is a problem (also
nurtured by diverse spiritual teachings), now it means less.
There is a lack of interest in the next spiritual idea or
concept, but there is an interest in what's going on with me, in my experience and
in the experience of others going through a similar process.
There is still avoiding, something my mind has been doing
for most of my life, but it is less personal.
There is still fear, insecurity, avoidance, withdrawal, all
these unwanted traits of this personality. Sometimes this leads to doubt that
seeing actually happened. But there is some kind of empty space underneath
them, they can't cling to any kind of core. There used to be convictions that
these unwanted experiences meant something about "me". Now these
convictions are seen as thoughts, just like the "me" they are referring
to.
There is a sense that there are more feelings to feel, more
life changes to happen, more previously avoided experiences to have, and that
it takes time for them to take place.
There is less pressure to have life a certain way, more
openness and curiosity towards what is happening.
There are times of feeling relief, loads falling off, things
becoming simpler.
And a lot more.
5)How would you describe it to somebody who has never heard
about this illusion but is curious about it.
That would very much depend on the person I am talking with,
and the situation.
A somewhat generic description could be like this:
It seems that we humans tend to be in some kind of trance.
We were raised with some assumptions about who we are, and all of our actions
in life are based on these assumptions. These assumptions include that we are a
separate person, who is a body or is in a body, and that we have some degree of
control over our life (if we try hard enough).
Even though all of our actions are based on these
assumptions, somehow we never examine them to see whether they are actually
true.
Well, this is about taking a very close look at the basic
assumptions about who we are. There are no special prerequisites except being
willing to take this look, to question beliefs, and to be open to discover what
is actually going on.
You don't need the grace of a guru to do this - the grace of
life is already happening by you being at this place and willing to look.
You don't need to do some special spiritual practices for
it, you don't need to become a better person for it, you just need to look.
Everything can be as it is.
You can go about this in different ways.
There is this group of specialists who have come up with
different ways to help you look at this.
You can explore by yourself by following the steps described
in this blog post:
You can read the book The Gateless Gatecrashers.
Or you can do all of this - whatever you feel drawn to.
It may sound too simple, too good to be true. I can only
encourage you to give it a try. Skepticism is not a problem. You do not need to
leave your critical thinking at the door.
Just look for yourself.
6) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you
look? Can you describe the moment when seeing happened?
I can't pinpoint a particular moment, but there were a
number of seeings that felt really important.
First of all, the whole approach by itself was already
liberating, by bringing so much clarity into a topic where there is so much
confusion going on, so many opposing views, so many complexities. The complete
focus on one basic, foundational illusion made so much sense.
Then at some point there came an understanding about
something that had been going on in my life.
About ten years ago there had been a period of a lot of
opening, the first time where there was actually inner joy and peace in my life
some of the time. A lot of major life changes took place as a consequence, and
one of them was that I became involved in a spiritual group. While I was
attracted to some things in this group, there also was the feeling that
something was wrong, but I couldn't get to the root of it. Peace and joy
disappeared, and there was some kind of inner conflict. Even though I had left
the group several years ago, this inner conflict still existed.
Suddenly I was able to see that at the core of this was the
idea of doership.
Peace and joy had gone hand in hand with an opening without
a special agenda. There had been more of a curiosity, and a willingness to look
at things how they were, feel what was there to feel, without an agenda about a
particular outcome.
The spiritual group stressed the idea that you had to do
certain things and be certain ways and follow certain teachings to achieve
liberation. They assumed that there is a doer who can do all this, if he tries
hard enough.
Now I could see that this was the basic conflict that somehow
was still in place, there was more understanding about what had happened, and
some kind of energetic knot dissolved.
Another important seeing was related to some mental pressure
that was often there in my mind and to some degree still is. There had been the
idea that "I couldn't get it" as long as this pressure was there or
showed up so regularly.
At some point I could see that this pressure has nothing to
do with the reality of who I am. There are impulses, feelings, thoughts that
come up, and there are other thoughts and feelings that try to control them.
Energies opposing energies, creating pressure. But it doesn't say anything
about who I am.
It was very important to look at expectations about
liberation. At some point it became real that seeing the exclusionary nature of
"me" doesn't necessarily mean that all challenges in life are
magically resolved. Life circumstances are still there, personality structures
are still there, conflicts are still there, avoided feelings are still there, other
people are still there.
It became clear that the effects of seeing are different for
different people, and that it is misleading to judge your own seeing because
you might not experience the same effects as someone else.
There had been times of seeing truth before this. In
hindsight it seems most important that LU cleared up a lot of confusion and
misconceptions around the topic, so that seeing could happen more clearly, and
so that some kind of shift could happen in the mind.
7) Anything to add?
I strongly find that the "Start Here" blog post on
MarkedEternal should become part of the main LU website, or at least be pointed
to from the main site as one possible approach for people who are looking. It
turned out to be so effective for me, and not everyone might find it by
themselves on the MarkedEternal blog.
I find it so so great beyond words what you guys are doing.
Thank you,
Werner
Ilona
Feb 28
Hi Werner,
Thank you so much for writing to me. It's really great to
hear that by following steps, shift has happened. I see from your answers that
there is seeing, clarity, and that puts a big smile on my face.
Are there any doubts? Is there any place that still cloudy
or all is clear?
What does the word I refer to? In your experience, how is it
seen that there is no doer? And what do you see when you look at other, has the
view changed?
Was there ever a gate to cross? :)
Sending lots of love.
Werner
Mar 2
Dear Ilona,
Thank you very much for taking the time to read my email and
respond so fast.
Here is what has come up for me in response to your
questions.
There are still times of doubt, and there is still some
cloudiness. There has been seeing, but there also has been an avoidance of
feelings related to what was seen. When feelings are triggered and/or mind gets
compulsive in an avoidance of feeling, “I” feels more real.
This also happens in interactions with my wife and other
people, where both avoided feelings and compulsive thinking are there quite a
lot.
It has just been a way of being for so long. It is not as
sticky as it was, but old mechanisms are still in place.
Additionally mind has the tendency to conceptualize what was
seen, on top of avoided feelings.
So I feel more seeing has to happen. Not to discover that
“I” is not real, but to give attention to what is essential in the core of
being, so that feelings and thoughts can relax.
As to your other questions, there are no answers at this
time. Mind could come up with some “right” answers, but in truth they feel
irrelevant right now.
Interesting.
Thanks and love,
Werner
…………………
Hi Ilona,
I want to make one correction to my last email.
“Interesting” at the end is not the right word at all.
All the steps so far have brought me to a place where it has
become increasingly clear that there is no other direction to look but right to
the core, no matter what.
I don’t have adequate words for that. Despite all the
challenges connected with it, it is the right place to be in.
Thank you.
………………A few months and many words later we arrived
at this point……………
Ilona
Yes, fear is thoughts about future that trigger sense of
insecurity, danger, possible harm. Even thought about the last mistake is
subtly about the future, take a look. Give me an example of thought about the
past that brings up sensations of fear in the body (not in theory, but in exp)
And take a good look, is there future? What is future made
of? When is it? Where? How does it appear in experience? Do images about the
future know what is going to happen?
Imagine tomorrow, same time as now. Is that image telling
what will definitely happen or it's assuming a possibility? Is there certainty
in the images of future? How about security, do these images keep you safe?
Does mind still need to look into the future and create possible scenarios in
order to protect an image of me?
Have fun with this
Much love.
Werner
There is not really a future. Future is all in thoughts,
which are also arising now. Thoughts about future are usually projecting a
future from past experiences. They are always assuming a possibility. Sometimes
they are close to the actual events, sometimes they are completely wrong.
There is no certainty or security in these images about the
future. Sometimes they are useful, e.g. thinking “it could rain” and taking an
umbrella on the walk. Often they are unnecessary and not useful at all.
These thoughts and fears are also very engrained, a habitual
way of operating for this mind for most of its life.
Ilona
Yes, there is practical planing and what-if scenarios that
only create fear. Thinking about future is fine, it's only when fearful
thoughts are believed they become suffering.
Werner
Yes, I can see that thoughts about past mistakes are subtly
about the future. They are about possible consequences of past actions =
future.
Right now I don’t find any thoughts that are purely about
the past that bring up sensations of fear. If something is completely over and
has no chance of impacting the future, there is no fear.
Trying to get rid of them doesn't feel appropriate and
creates pressure. I guess the best approach is to just focus back on reality of
no me again and again and let the thoughts and fears run their course until
they don’t need to be that obstinate any more.
Ilona
Yes, noticing what is here right now. Noticing what hands
are doing, what sensations are present.
Also investigating beliefs help. Like this one- is there
future? How is it experienced? What is there that feels insecure and needs to
be protected from life?
It looks to me that you are through. Are you? Is search
still on?
Sending love.
Werner
When looking strictly now, there is no search.
Search anyway only seems to originate in thought.
On one level it is very clear that I is only a thought.
Ilona
That's it. It takes time to settle. Mind keeps checking till
it doesn't. The line is crossed and there is no way back to believe in I entity
anymore. Of course conditioning did not
happen in a day so deconstruction does take time too. It's normal.
Everywhere you look there is confirmation and mind
acknowledges that. It's part of process of clean up. All beliefs show up sooner
or later to be cleaned up.
The shift may be subtle and unnoticeable, but when you look
back, it's clear that something is different, some patterns are no longer
there, like searching for "who am I?"
Would you like to have a go at final questions?
If not, what is not clear yet?
Werner
It hasn’t sunk in through all layers of thinking and feeling
yet, but that’s something that takes time and experience.
It still feels important to acknowledge the reality of no-I.
Yes, send me questions.
Love.
Ilona
Sweet! Here they are:
Werner
1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all,
anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?
No. I is only a thought, an empty thought, that does not
refer to a real entity. That is true now and was true in the past. It is not
that at one point there was a real entity behind I and then it suddenly
disappeared without anyone noticing J
2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is,
when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as
you see it now.
When we grow up, we learn to attach concepts to raw
sensations. Even now, when focusing on raw touch, sight, or sound, there is no
boundary, no person, no place where “I” end and “other” begins. Part of our
socialization is attaching concepts to the raw sensations as a way of
navigating life.
Certain sensations get the label “arm”, “head”, “foot”,
“parent”, etc. Some labels refer to
something that can be experienced in reality, such as “wall”. Other labels
refer to thoughts, ideas. “I” is such a label, and it is instilled thoroughly
during socialization, with a lot of related concepts that are all based on it.
There is nothing real behind the label “I”, and everything based on it is just
built on an empty idea.
3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from
before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.
It feels freeing to see this. In the last few days there is
less conflict, less struggle, more moments of spaciousness, more simplicity. It
is not that all the unwanted feelings and thoughts are gone, but they don’t
have the same meaning attached as they had before.
The difference from before I started the process is
enormous. The spiritual search has basically stopped. I’m not looking for
another teaching. There is more clarity, less holding on, more acceptances. And
a lot more that doesn't come to mind easily. Oh, the relationship with my wife
improved (which is not a small thing).
4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you
look?
In hindsight the realization of no-I already happened when
working with the seven questions on your blog. What kept me struggling was the
question whether there were any doubts about this, which caused me to start the
inquiry process with you. The process was very helpful and clarifying. I can’t
pinpoint a particular moment that did it. There were numerous insights and
experiences that were all part of the puzzle.
One important experience was the looking at perception
without labeling them, and the realization that there is no boundary between an
“I” and the others, there is just a sensation. It only becomes “I sit on the
couch” through labeling, a mental process, and part of this process is
attaching the labels “I” and “other”. These are helpful concepts for practical
purposes, but cause problems when taken for real.
Another important clarification was that thoughts are not
what knows. Something else (which cannot be labeled, pointed to, or identified)
is aware of thoughts, and may identify with them or not. It is what gives life
to thoughts; they don’t have a life or reality on their own. That was a really
important distinction, as there was the idea that thoughts have power on their
own, and I have a very active mind.
Another important realization was that whatever thoughts or
feelings there may be, they don’t change the reality of no-I. With your help I
looked a lot, and all kinds of different thoughts and feelings came up. But
when looking honestly, there never was an “I” to be found behind any of them.
My mind has the tendency to be very thorough and tries to
figure things out. But in some way no-I is beyond the mind, and mind could go
on endlessly looking and might not get the certainty it looks for, because it
is just not on that level.
At some point it just became clear that nothing more could
be gained by looking for “I” or no-I, and that it was due to acknowledge the
fact of no-I, no matter what else thoughts might have to say.
5) Do you decide, intend, choose, control events in Life? Do
you make anything happen? Give examples from your experience.
Who? “You” is an empty word. There is no separate entity “I”
that controls life.
6) Anything to add?
Lots of gratitude. It is so true and real on a very deep
level what you do. Essential. Beyond words.
Much love,
Werner
Ilona
Hi Werner,
Thank you very much for answers. I knew it, you are clear
and for a while now. It's good to see it all written down, I see that you see
and I'm very happy for you!
Could just expand a little on number 5, just with a couple
examples from ordinary daily life, that'd be great.
Much love!
Werner
Hi Ilona,
Thank you! Yes, it’s good to write it down!
Some examples regarding question 5:
When “I” walk, there is walking happening, body is moving,
but there is no separate entity that is doing the walking. Usually thoughts
arise that claim ownership of the action, “I am walking”, or “I just went to
the fridge”, but the “I” these thoughts refer to cannot be found in reality, it
is a thought concept.
Same for other activities.
Some actions may occur spontaneously, others may be preceded
by a lot of thinking.
But even when “I” make a decision, thoughts may arise before
decision, looking at options may occur, at some point decision happens (or
not), action follows (or not), and thought of ownership arises, “I decided to
do/not do this”, but this “I” is not there if looked for in reality, the only
reality of it is the thought “I”. The I-thought actually happens; the content
of the thought does not point to something real. There is just emptiness when
looking for it.
That’s what it boils down to. When looking honestly and
openly for the “me” that controls and lives life, it cannot be found. Life just
lives without anyone owning it.
Love,
Werner
Ilona
Hi Werner,
Days seem to flow fast..
Thank you for expanding one this, it's a pleasure to read.
I guess you know what happens next, I am going to ask you if
it's ok to make a blogpost out of our long conversation and use some parts of
it. And then I can invite you to LU Facebook groups to meet others :) there may
be people that are even in you area. It is great to meet others that see that
same.
Can I use your name or any different one? People often write
to me these conversations are helpful in their own journeys.
It has been a pleasure, Werner. And I'm delighted that gate
was crashed!
Werner
Hi Ilona,
So good to hear from you.
Yes, it is ok to make a blog post out of our conversation,
and you can use my name.
I look forward to meeting others who have seen this – I will
even join Facebook for this.
What a journey! So fortunate to have stumbled across this,
and so much deepest appreciation and thanks for what you do, and the impact you
have had on this facet of life.
Much love,
Werner
.............................
Lots of greatitude to Werner for making LU quote app available for PC and Mac.
